Celtic fans reject Findlay’s pro-IRA stance…

AFTER the chair of the Celtic Trust opposed the appointment of former Northern Ireland Secretary and ex-Home Secretary John Reid as Celtic chairman for his “leading role in relation to what many believe is an illegal and immoral war”, Jeanette Findlay went on to defend the singing of pro-IRA chants on the terraces. Despite refusing to apologise, Findlay has angered many Irish fans of the club, which has also claimed her views are unrepresentative. Findlay’s timing couldn’t have been worse, as Scots united to Kick Out Bigotry on Tuesday.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Star of the County Down

    Here’s an interesting article from one of Scotland’s broadsheets;

    “negative attitudes towards Catholics – 19th-century Glasgow had more members of anti-Catholic societies than Catholic residents at one stage – led to discrimination to protect employment levels and access to housing. In the 1930s, local politicians sought to ride to power on anti-Catholic prejudice in Edinburgh and Glasgow, with Orange lodges prominent in political campaigning.”

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20010211/ai_n13957087

    And another article from redclydeside;

    >>However, Scotland did produce a variety of extremist parties, some with links to fascist organisations. In the 1930s anti-Catholic parties including the Scottish Protestant League (SPL) in Glasgow and Protestant Action in Edinburgh took up to a third of the votes in local council elections. Alexander Ratcliffe, leader of the SPL, had previously been a member of the ‘British Fascists’ who famously claimed, “What Britain needs is a Hitler”, as was Billy Fullerton, erstwhile leader of a band of sectarian thugs called the ‘Billy Boys’, who was awarded a medal for strikebreaking in the 1926 General Strike. John Cormack of Protestant Action lacked such fascist connections, and even led physical opposition to Oswald Mosley on his visit to Edinburgh in 1934. The Blackshirts’ sympathy for a united Ireland and Mussolini’s associations with the Vatican were too much for them to take.< <http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyeve23.htm

    Some of these parties existed right upto the 1950’s. Methinks anyone would be hard pushed to claim that culloden was to blame for this, if indeed that can be used as a significant excuse at all.

  • Indeed the Church of Scotland has these past few years publicly apologised for the terrible way she dealt with Irish Catholics right upto the 1950’s. Encouraging anti-Catholic political parties, and the infamous minister John White springs to mind. An arsehole of the highest order. They are to be congratulated for this gesture of reconciliation. Seems not all Protestants want to pretend it didn’t happen/wasn’t true. Or use the fig leaf that “one side is as bad as the other”

    Prince Eoghan

    Ibrox park remains the last bastion of those Scots who think that the immigrant Irish remain untersmensch.

    As Graham Speirs recently wrote in the London times that it is ,in contemporary Scotland, “a bit naff” to be a Rangers supporter.
    fascism isnt cool in Salmond’s Scotland.
    BTW neither is “Britishness”

  • Prince Eoghan

    Phil

    Undoubtedly things have changed(nearly wrote: are changing) for the better. There is no going back! I understand the frustration of K Mc who attacks Catholics in Scotland for propping up the Unionist labour party. It is not so long ago that the SNP were tagged(rightly or wrongly) as anti-Catholic. As a result many Catholics were reluctant to vote for them, preferring the protection of England. Rather than live under the auspices of a UUP type Protestant hegemony in Scotland.

    Catholics of my generation now have no problems voting SNP, I even succeeded in getting my Da to vote for them last time, although had no luck with parents-in-law and my mother. Who quite rightly claim that Labour has always protected the Catholic schools. Thing is, if anti-Catholicism is no longer allowed to flourish, indeed sidelined. Then there will be no need for such protection. Anyway, many of these labourites are ex or closet Irish Republican sympathisers who do/did not have the guts to stand up for what they believe in.

  • Prince Eoghan

    As I said in my previous post, my priest touches me in my special place 🙂 I like nothing more than bending over and feeling his hot crumpet burning my cheeks 😀

    I am a twisted mofo and please disregard all my previous posts as the shite they are. I have no girlfriend, nor mates, I live at home with my mum on our shit housing executive estate. I am a looser, I have posted twice as much shite as everone else on here, as it is the only way I can get any attention 🙁 I am a nobby no-mates, I have no life with an unhealthy perversion/fetish for singing IRA songs :s. Fr Anus is calling me…id better go 🙂

  • PE:
    I remember my time as an SNP organiser in Glasgow’s East End. At that point, in my coimmunity, “SNP” stood for “Staunch Northern Protestants”.
    I broke that perception by joining the SNP and becoming th election organiser in the 87 election.
    Now the younger generation of my family still in the East End dont have a problem with voting SNP.
    Ibrox is a last bastion of the “Fenians At The Back Of The Bus” party.
    They have friends in the media but the tide is turning.
    Rangers are now out of step with the Scotland of Salmond-whereas before they were a manifestation of modern North British ideals.
    the rise of a globalsied,commercially successful celtic in the age of Ryan Air and Dermot Desmond is further proof that the Fenians are coming out on top.
    In commerical/finacial marketting terms Celtic now dwarf Rangers (Mick not my opinion but the opinion of the G14 group who recently invited Celtic but not Rangers to join the new enlarged group)
    Changed days.
    Not at the back of the bus anymore.

    I know that’s a tough reality for some on here :0)

  • Mick Fealty

    PE:

    Here’s where you did it:

    “What you have is IRA-aphobia, well known to those who try and posit it as an accusation of sectarianism.

    >>I myself find it extremely sectarian and find it akin to me playing Loyalist band tunes through the wall at them< engage with those who have a different view from yours.

    I’ve always encouraged the exchange of strong views, but it’s the engagement is what makes them valuable. Otherwise it just resembles the dull, repetitive sound of the echo chamber.

  • Mick,

  • mick, we’re on the 9th page of comments. Prince Eoghan and Phil Mac have continually posted in defense of Celtic & their fhans in the face of those who follow the weak-media soundbites of “one side is as bad as the other” etc.

    They have posted clearly, in depth and often with references. They haven’t being posting in a frothy mouthed manner banging away at the keyboard.

    After all those postings and you complain about ” whataboutery” when others have brought Rangers into the arguement and Prince & Phil are replying to the original postings about Rangers. Very weak on your part.

    You complain above about Prince’s “Are you aware of the words of some Loyalist/Unionist songs…” when he seems to have being using this as an example to highlight his disagreement with Demo’s understanding of the word sectarian. Again very weak on your part… you seem to be following the one side is as bad as the other mode of thinking.

    Prince & Phil, congrats on being so consistant and defending of Celtic & their fhans… thanks for all your posts. I wish I could have contrib’d but I’m trying to wean myself from this site.

  • sam

    I think the prince has put forward his views in an honest and clear manner.

  • Also anonymous

    1st poster to introduce whataboutry about Rangers on the thread = Prince Eoghan

    2nd poster to introduce whataboutry about Rangers on the thread = Phil Mac

    Go figure.

  • “You complain above about Prince’s “Are you aware of the words of some Loyalist/Unionist songs…” when he seems to have being using this as an example to highlight his disagreement with Demo’s understanding of the word sectarian. Again very weak on your part… you seem to be following the one side is as bad as the other mode of thinking.”

    Exactly my point to you earlier in this thread Mick.

    “one side as bad as the other” very,very sloppy,flabby thinking. You’re usually sharper than that.

    Thanks Anonymous.

  • DM

    Phil, PE at al., I think the problem a lot of us have is that you are more interested in moaning about how sectarian rangers fans/prods in general are, as opposed to addressing the question at hand. At the end of the day the bigotry or otherwise on one set of supporters can´t be used to excuse that of another, regardless of ´who is worse than who´.

    At least PE has been clear about one thing – his unequivocal support for the singing of IRA songs at Celtic matches. And by the way, you can´t be offended by them because he once heard some loyalist songs too you know, and you´re a bigot if you think it´s wrong to sing rebel songs. But don´t worry, if ever you find yourself intimidated by such behaivour, just stop and take a moment to think about what a nasty prod you are.

  • DM: I certainly wasnt “moaning” merely putting
    Mick et al on the money apropos “one side as bad as another”.
    It was that nonsense that prompted me to intervene and bring verifiable evidence to the party.
    UEFA rulings etc.
    The singing of republican ballads at celtic matches is an integral part of the club’s Irishness.
    Something that will last longer than our war criminal chairman’s tenure.
    I watched Stuttgart v Rangers last night.
    For the record,in the spirit of post-war reconcilliation ,I supported the Huns.
    I received an email this morning from a friend in Germany who said that it was on their Tv that some Rangers fans had been arrested outside the ground for giving Nazi salutes (a criminal offence in Germany).
    “One side as bad as the other?”
    Anyone, in this day and age, who still finds themselves i nside Ibrox park supporting the n
    home team is-in Graham Spiers words-“a bit naff”.
    If the trailer trash of the dead british empire dont like being reminded that some conquered people didnt have the decency to remain conquered then they’ll just have to deal with that.

    I thought the Huns played well last night….

  • Mick Fealty

    annon,

    I’ve no problem with PE defending the singing of rebel songs at Celtic matches. That’s perfectly within the terms of the debate.

    My problem is with the whataboutery that’s been constantly indulged in, not with any defence (real or imaginary) of Celtic (and who, by the way, have not been under fire here). I’m mostly agin it because it degrades the potential for intellectual badinage and the construction of real defensive lines.

    In reality, what both phil and PE seem to be arguing is that it is okay to sing rebel songs, because loyalist songs are worse. Whataboutery: a refusal to tackle the issue in it’s own terms.

    Now maybe there is a case for saying that none of this can be tackled in isolation. That there are worse behaviours coming in the other direction. But that’s not what we’ve been getting. As DM says above what we’re actually getting is another tedious re-run of the ‘nasty prod syndrome’.

    PE also presupposes that any contravention of this line is malign, without ever attending to the specific issues raised.

    I’d argue it was getting close to ad hominem, though it’s probably too chaotic to say for certain whether it is or not.

    Nice one phil:

    “‘one side as bad as the other’ very, very sloppy, flabby thinking.”

    I would certainly agree, if it related to anything I’ve actually said on this thread. In fact, it is your own characterisation of quite another argument altogether.

    It is, in short, a straw man fallacy, which is defined as:

    …a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:

    1. Person A has position X.
    2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
    3. Person B attacks position Y.
    4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

    This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

  • Can I ask what the difference is between singing a traditional irish song of the Irish Republican variety is compared to one of the Irish Loyalist? Both are equally designed to offend and intimidate. I have lost a lot of respect for Prince Eoghan in the course of this debate. While I never agreed with much of what he said he’d always said it well. In this debate he seems to hold the two glasgow clubs to different standards and at one point accused me of making things up just because it didn’t accord to what he wants to believe. I really don’t know whats worse, the biggot who acknowledges what he is and revels in it, or the biggot who hides behind fancy words and logical fallacies to cover his intollerance.

  • To Also anonymous regarding your researched posting on Nov 28, 2007 @ 08:10 AM:

    In reviewing the beginning of this thread, the first mention of Rangers was posted by Boff on Nov 23, 2007 @ 02:21 PM (post number 14) “…but it does highlight some of the problems Celtic and Rangers have to deal with. Both clubs have been doing a lot to combat their problems, in conjunction with the politicians, but they do still attract a lot of support from the headcases. ‘

    The second mention was posted by Billy on Nov 23, 2007 @ 07:45 PM (post number 22)…”…We could of course discuss the decades of blatent bigotry at Rangers, Linfield and Northern Ireland where the evidence would fill an aircraft hanger. “

    Prince Eoghan and Phil hadn’t even posted to the thread yet… so you’re wrong. More importantly are you wrong in a deliberate attempt to discredit PE and Phil and therefore nullify their argument or are you wrong because you can’t see rationale in anything related to Celtic? Or possibly it’s because you just don’t have a clue? In short – misinformation, biased viewpoint or ignorance?

    Go figure that one out (you really should try harder… you make this too easy)!!!

    Hail, hail Prince Eoghan and Phil MacGiollabhain, thanks for all your good work.

  • Bored!!

    Hey Anonymous – why don’t you go and join your two IRA/Celtic Fanboy chums and sing your “noble” paramilitary rhymes in the darkest hills of Donegal somewhere away from the rest of modern civilisation – you could even take a couple of Rangers supporters with youse and see who can grunt the loudest about who the real scumbags are……

  • RepublicanStones

    those who complain about people and ‘whataboutery’ remarks are those for whom those ‘whataboutery’ remarks reveal uncomfortable truths which are to be avoided at all costs with the slagging off of those who highlight said truths or ‘whataboutery’ as some call it.

  • DM

    RepublicanStones – there are plenty of threads on here highlighting a variety of inconvenient truths, as you put it, for those of all shades of opinion. This is the beauty of slugger, the breadth and depth of topics covered. If however you wish to dodge the issue of a thread by talking about other issues within it then you are engaging in ‘whataboutery’. By all means, discuss your perceptions of sectarianism at Rangers and elsewhere; but do not do it on a topic related to something else entirely.

  • Bored!
    Dear oh dear…..

    Donegal is at the centre of modern civilisation:0)

  • RepublicanStones

    DM i was referring to an earlier comment, god forbid someone go off topic on slugger. and i have commented on issue on this thread so iompaíg thart mo chara and you’ll find it.

  • DM

    RS – I know you have. Unfortunately I don’t speak Irish, but I’ll guess that means ‘have a look for it’? I know what you were referring to with your previous comment, all I am doing is highlighting why people are aggrieved at the seeming unwillingess of posters to address the question at hand, and their readiness to hide behind another issue entirely.

  • DM

    Ah, it means ‘about turn’!

  • RepublicanStones

    iompaíg thart – about turn

    oh and funny that your last two posts represent exactly what your complaing about.

  • DM

    Sorry I don’t understand what you mean RS, could you explain?

  • RepublicanStones

    no explaining, stay on thread issue…..

  • DM

    RS, that’s a little obtuse don’t you think? My qualm was with those who were engaging in whataboutery and pulling the thread off-topic. You’re saying that I’m indulging in the same by highlighting it? I’d say that’s tenuous at best.

  • wheew, that was close thing w Shakhtar…

    “(2 – 1) Donati (Celtic) scores!
    Deep in added time Celtic come forward one last time with Aiden McGeady on the right. He plays it across for Massimo Donati and he could have clinched it for the home side as his side-footed effort takes a deflection and beats Andriy Pyatov, for his first UEFA Champions League goal. It puts the Scottish side just a point from qualification.”

    That’s the same McGeady who could have played for Scotland but plays for Ireland.

    below are just a few quotes from some who know the game and are sufficiently distant to see the wood for the trees…

    “The best fans on the continent”
    El Mundo Deportivo, Barcelona (before UEFA Cup game in 2003)

    “Celtic fans, you are great, you are marvellous”
    Sepp Blatter (FIFA President)

    Ancelotti [AC Milan Manager]would certainly welcome back Celtic to the Champions League on a regular basis, if only for their supporters. The sight of 10,000 Celtic fans giving their team a standing ovation at the end prompted Ancelotti to reflect that Scottish football followers could teach their Italian counterparts a lesson in loving the game. “This is what we need in Italy, this type of environment,” the Milan coach said. “This was the essence of sport. To hear the Celtic fans singing and chanting after the game was incredible.”
    Ancelotti (AC Milan Manager 2007, Fri. March 9th London Times).

    William Gaillard (UEFA’s director of communications and public affairs) speaking after the European Cup final between Liverpool and AC Milan in 2007, was asked about what is going to be done in the future when another British club gets into the final and there is the same problems of fan behaviour/troubles getting into the ground. His answer?
    “……Well, Celtic fans a couple of years ago went to Seville in the Uefa Cup Final and took over 3 times the amount of fans there. There was not one bit of trouble as all the fans that had no tickets stayed in the square and had a big party. Every team should follow Celtic’s fan behaviour and that mentality”
    (William Gaillard, UEFA’s director of communications and public affairs, 24/05/07 Sky Sports News)

    “Celtic, like Barcelona, are more than a football club. Our clubs are a symbol of a culture and community that has not always been made welcome in their respective countries.” Xavi Alonsa (ex-Liverpool player, his father played for Barcelona)

  • dewi

    Astonishing game (even from highlights watching Liverpool sorry) – and crowd just looked if wanted to have fun. Draw to Milan away? Why on earth not? Nice trip anyway!

  • Great quotes Anonymous:0)
    Plently of non-partisan perspectives for you there Mick.
    Celtic are about to become the soccer team of David McWilliam’s global gaeltacht.
    the friendliness of our support is world reknowned.
    Meanwhile our fascist City rivals stew in their own hatred currently subject of a probation order from UEFA.

    But you see “one side is as bad as the other”
    Sheesh!
    As if cultures and belief systems were Rorschach inkblots.

    Nature deals in asymetry.

    One club has a supprot rthat is liked and admired, welcome everywhere (Celtic-just ask Sepp Blatter.
    The other is feared and despised.

    Tonight on Tv-it has been reported that there was a Ron Atkinson moment when a TV pundit -thinking he was off air derided the half time singing of the Fields of Athenrye as ” oh thats them singing about the tattie famine again!”
    the pundit should be sacked but he wont.

  • Dewi-the celtic support always want to ahve fun!
    the other lot have all the charm of a lynch mob.
    Dont take my word for it- contact the police forces in England who dont than them anywhere near their town, but readily welcome the Hoops.

  • “Celtic, like Barcelona, are more than a football club. Our clubs are a symbol of a culture and community that has not always been made welcome in their respective countries.” Xavi Alonsa (ex-Liverpool player, his father played for Barcelona”

    Great quote.
    Celtic are indeed the Barcelona of the Irish diaspora.
    Of coruse the existence of an Irish diaspora was always a problem for revivionists.
    No section 31 in paradise :0)

  • Bored!!

    Were Celtic “best fans in the world” singing any Provo songs last night I wonder….great bunch of lads altogether – patriots and all that sh1te..

  • orange bastard

    The grotesque narrow minded Celtic fans on this thread should be reminded that the singing of sectarian songs at matches glorifies the actions of the IRA. They seem to be proud of this.

    Shame on you, scum.

  • RudI

    Shame on you, scum.

    Ah Yes! The Red Hand salute involves putting you right arm in the air (like the Nazis did) and having your left hand mimicking the moustache of Charlie Chaplin? just like Mark Bosnich did.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Tonight on Tv-it has been reported that there was a Ron Atkinson moment when a TV pundit -thinking he was off air derided the half time singing of the Fields of Athenrye as “ oh thats them singing about the tattie famine again!”
    the pundit should be sacked but he wont.<

  • RepublicanStones

    red hand salute my ass. it was a nazi salute. oh and by the by, the red hand is an ancient irish symbol, so you loyalists quit stealing from other cultures to try and make a mish mash one of your own.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Phil

    Just realised from your SNP comments that you are from the east end of Glasgow, ditto here. My mob are fae E/Hoose, I am presently living in the lair of the beast, aye Billy-boy land. All weNeeds must!

    As for the SNP, in the words of a favourite Aussie politician of mine Paul Keating “How sweet it is!”

  • Jackie Fullerton’s lovechild

    [i]Very childish of you here. I intimated that I found the story you were told hard to believe. I asked for some kind of evidence of this song, any words etc…….. simply because I could not fathom Celtic fans singing such like. Your lack of further contribution, and subsequent attack tells a story also. Disagree with me all day long, but leave out the pettiness please.[/i]

    I don’t know if you missed it, but I commented that I witnessed dozens of Celtic fans singing IRA songs in city centre Manchester last year (and that’s not even mentioning the absolute scumbag-ness of pissing in people’s gardens and throwing up in the middle of the street). Anyone else in Manchester that day would also have witnessed it, as it carried on in several places.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Had an interesting hour with a fellow Celtic fan yesterday in the afternoon, pre-glorious night win. We disagreed about how Celtic were playing of late. Me as always painfully truthful that we are shite, he giving standard defences(excuses). Anyway we got talking about this subject and was very interested to note that he was a someone who was dead against the singing of Republican/rebel songs at paradise. Now considering that pretty much all of my friends and family would take the opposite view or are ambivalent. I pressed further to find out just why he thought so.

    His viewpoint is one that I myself may be coming round to, and is similar to the points spoke about with oneill and myself earlier in the thread. There is nothing wrong or sectarian per se with the singing of such songs or in remembering a part of our heritage. It just might be getting to the stage where things have moved on, and taking politics into the sporting arena is not something that many are comfortable with, indeed some vehemently oppose. Glad to say that like the rest of us, he takes exception to the sectarian blanket of one size fits all that we are labelled with.

    Thankfully we have other outlets rather than relying on the truly dishonest media in this land. Hail Hail………….

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    “Thankfully we have other outlets rather than relying on the truly dishonest media in this land”

    Good win for Celtic last night – a “never say die” team, to be admired.

    Whilst I am not a fan of either Old Firm Club, I was recently invited to address a “Gers Pride” meeting at Ibrox.

    One of the noteable things I felt from the meeting was the total despair many decent Rangers fans feel with the Scottish media – they would view sections of the media also as “truly dishonest”, and “Pro Celtic”.

    It’s interesting to see your comments.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Jackie

    What have my comment to pounder got to do with your repeated comments?

    I have no problem with Celtic fans singing of IRA songs. It is however a bit rude and distasteful of fans to be pissing/spueing just anywhere. However it is standard fare for away fans, anyone who travels to away matches will attest that you get the odd people/group who through having no manners or often necessity will do this. Considering that we have been regularly travelling to Manchester regularly for nearly 30 years in our twenties of thousands(not to forget the dozens of Celtic supporters clubs in that part of England) with no major incidents, it is small beer in the grand scale of things really. I am afraid that all supports large or small will have guys or even gals these days who canny haud thir watter.

    Myself and young son had a great time at Roy keane’s testimonial. Man U fans were shown up a wee bit that day. It’s not the first time we have outnumbered home fans in their ain midden. We have done it to another great English club in Liverpool also. I think you will find our legacy to be a positive one almost everywhere we go. One memory sticks out of being almost accosted in Bordeaux by scores of home fans running over to us outside the ground to shake hands/backslap, exchange(mostly us giving) scarfs. They were obviously impressed by my singing skills inside the ground.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    If I’m being honest these guys have been cosseted by the total lack of exposure of their fans by the Scottish. Since the subsequent interest of UEFA and their own Graeme Spiers, they have had a light shone on their behaviour by a generally unwilling Scottish media. However the “one side is as bad as the other” epithet is still too often thrown in, perhaps that’s why some Rangers fans are confused and angered at the lack of interest by UEFA in Celtic. They have been too long sold a pup by the media, despite the evidence of their own eyes/ears.

    My mentioning of the media was not wholly aimed at the Scottish media.

    The decent Gers fans that you speak of should be doing their best(which many are) to move their club away from the dark ages, not seeking to provide a fig-leaf. ie the media bringing attention to many of their abhorrent practices. Are you aware of the ‘Big Jock knew’ campaign at the moment? Or the singing of such ditty at Rangers matches by the thousand? I know you to be someone who talks in the positive regarding such matters, I’d be careful of the company I keep.

  • Democratic

    “I have no problem with Celtic fans singing of IRA songs”
    I guess this statement pretty much sums it up – if any Celtic supporters cannot see what is wrong of offensive about this pastime – well really there is nothing to discuss here – and everyone can remain safely in their comfort zones in their thoughts of “the other side”. From a personal point of view I find this very disapointing.

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    “Are you aware of the ‘Big Jock knew’ campaign at the moment? Or the singing of such ditty at Rangers matches by the thousand?”

    Vaguely.

    Any worse than singing songs in glorification of those involved in sectarian murder?

    Both have no place inside a football stadium.

    “The decent Gers fans that you speak of should be doing their best(which many are) to move their club away from the dark ages, not seeking to provide a fig-leaf. ie the media bringing attention to many of their abhorrent practices”

    I totally agree.

    I would find chanting in support of organisations involved in sectarian murder to be equally “abhorrent”.

    Your comments (and those of Ms Findlay) in this thread vindicate those Rangers fans who think it is still “hip” to chant in support of loyalist paramilitary organisations, who were similarly involved in sectarian murder.

    That is very disappointing.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Democratic

    You have obviously not taken this thread in beyond the superficial.

    Indeed read back my own comments to you, this may help.

    I am sorry that the height of your understanding stops at the likes of me choosing to follow my own line of politics. Perhaps the basics of your lack of understanding is not knowing that many of us supported the IRA. I could castigate you for vicariously giving support, tacit or otherwise to a British state who who were involved in the killing of her own citizens. Often through the auspices of legal and illegal militia’s.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    >>Any worse than singing songs in glorification of those involved in sectarian murder?< >Both have no place inside a football stadium.< >Your comments (and those of Ms Findlay) in this thread vindicate those Rangers fans who think it is still “hip” to chant in support of loyalist paramilitary organisations, who were similarly involved in sectarian murder.<

  • Democratic

    “I am sorry that the height of your understanding stops at the likes of me choosing to follow my own line of politics. Perhaps the basics of your lack of understanding is not knowing that many of us supported the IRA. I could castigate you for vicariously giving support, tacit or otherwise to a British state who who were involved in the killing of her own citizens. Often through the auspices of legal and illegal militia’s.”

    Yeah you could “castigate” if you wished – and that would be fine – but I tend to find that the problems arise when “we” sing and forcefully impress via the medium of paramiltary war themes of “our” respective controversial “loyalties” in the presence of those who we KNOW will be offended by them – it’s called respect – why not move into the 21st century Prince – you might like it…..

  • Realist

    “I don’t believe that the IRA were involved in a sectarian murder campaign”

    Prince Eoghan,

    Whilst we are never going to agree on that, it would be impossible fo you to dispute that the IRA were responsible for sectarian murders, and, therefore, had within their ranks sectarian killers.

    In supporting chants in glorification of the IRA, you wholly vindicate those who chant in support of those who chose to fight the IRA.

    I support (all) those who wish to rid football grounds of chanting in support of organisations who were responsible for sectarian killings.

    I find (all)such chants offensive.

  • Jackie Fullerton’s lovechild

    [i]What have my comment to pounder got to do with your repeated comments?[/i]

    You asked for instances of IRA singing etc among Celtic fans. I was making sure you hadn’t missed my comment confirming it.

    As for the IRA not being sectarian killers, in my eyes that is totally and utterly, 100% wrong. This is not the thread to discuss it, especially as I suspect we will never agree on a conclusion, but I do wonder something.

    I’ve read you are from Glasgow. How often would you be in Belfast, if at all? And were you here during the Troubles? I’m not having a dig, I’m genuinely interested to know.

    And finally, I am glad to see you may be coming round to the viewpoint that political songs have no place in a sporting stadium. Even if you are the only one to change your mind, it would be worth all this back and forth, and I would hope many more (on both sides) would go the same way.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Jackie

    >>You asked for instances of IRA singing etc among Celtic fans.< >I find (all)such chants offensive.<

  • Also anonymous

    ‘Also this campaign by Rangers fans to falsely besmirch Jock Stein’s name is yet another example of Rangers fans disgracing themselves. I have frequently applauded the NI fans on here who are on the right road to ridding themselves of the past. Rangers fans by indulging in this, probably as a substitute for the songs that will get their club in trouble from UEFA(ie sectarian songs) show the darker side of society.’

    So did I just dream the long-term campaign of “Richard Gough – child molester” chants from the Parkhead choir then? Hypocrisy and cant is absolutely hanging out of you, PE me bhoy.

  • Realist

    “However I have specifically mentioned throughout the thread the distinctly more distasteful Unionist songs that would not fall into either category. For example the songs about casually stringing Taigs up to the tune of the ‘Hokey, cokey’ and such like”

    Prince Eoghan,

    “Unionist songs”?

    Let me assure you that this unionist would find such chanting to be absolutely disgusting – and I wouldn’t feel any less a unionist for feeling so.

    Of course, I’m quite sute that you would find references amongst the more bigoted, sectarian, element of the Celtic fanbase to “soon there will be no Protestants at all” to be equally disgusting.

    And…I won’t stoop to labeling such words as nationalist/republican songs – just merely, hate filled, sectarian pish.

  • Jackie Fullerton’s lovechild

    [i]No I didn’t! I am frequently in the company of Celtic fans, our repertoire of Republican/IRA/Rebel ballads/songs are vast. Why would I ask for instances? Perhaps you were confused with me asking for instances of sectarian singing?[/i]

    That’s the thing, for me it is one and the same. IRA songs=sectarian songs. Chanting pro-IRA songs, especially in a city that suffered at the hands of the IRA, is sectarian. And stupid, but that’s another argument.

    I asked about Belfast, as I cannot comprehend someone being here and not seeing the IRA as sectarian killers, except if you stayed the entire time in Republican areas and didn’t venture out. Again, I am totally genuine in this. If anyone has seen the sectarian murder carried out and terror perpretrated by Republican (and for that matter loyalist) paramilitaries, my mind boggles as to the blinkers they have on as to not call them sectarian.

  • PE,

    You know what they say: “in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king/prince”. Just because you are ‘an unrepentent fenian’, does not mean that is why you are getting a hard time.

    You are getting a hard time from me because you’re refusing to argue your corner. The resultant ad hominem interference on good communication is dragging the level of discourse through the mire. In short, if you cannot afford some basic respect for your opponents whilst at least attempting to take their arguments to pieces, you can take it elsewhere. I don’t have time to police this site to ensure civil engagement.

    I’m getting very close to zero tolerance for this kind of empty headed trollery…

  • K McLaughlin

    Either I have missed some incredibly subtle distinction between these two sets of fans which justifies one or the other taking the moral high ground or this thread has degenerated into the usual crapfest of mudslinging between sectarian cretins.
    Look guys, it is perfectly straightforward.
    A love song to fascist gunmen is a deeply offensive form of music regardless of whether said gunmen also own rosary beads or Orange collarettes.
    Football ‘fans’ braying hatred and spreading puke and piss in the streets are a bloody nuisance regardless of the colour of the scarves round their scrawny jakey necks.
    Apologists for one set of so called fans are as colourblind, selective and as deluded as the apologists for the other lot.
    In brief, Rangers and Celtic are the same thing, a useless,dangerous passion from another age and another country (if you are Scottish). The sooner the whole business is history the better.
    PS An Apology.
    I made a somewhat ill tempered suggestion a few pages back to the effect that the ‘Old Firm’ and their fans should be known collectively as T.I.T.s (Transplanted Irish Tribesmen). This was wrong and I now apologise to tribesmen everywhere.
    ‘Klingons’ would have been more appropriate, judging by some of the posts subsequent to mine, since they appear to have been made by people from another planet. Wait! If my recollection of ‘Star Trek’ is accurate, the Klingons had a moral code of some kind, something clearly lacking in the authors of these blogs. Sorry Klingons everywhere! I will try again.
    My last attempt at a collective name for the whole ‘Old Firm’ shower – ‘metastases’.
    Look it up!
    Got to go. Have a job to hold down and am really rather tired of farting against thunder, which is what you are doing in trying to reason with such bigots.
    Pps Enjoy your wallow in this sectarian mire, o brainless ones, history will overtake you shortly.

  • PE:
    “Who was this Phil?”
    It was Jim White in the studio with Charlie Nicholas.

  • Mick Fealty

    PE:

    “I am not going to waste any more time on this with you, say what you will as you are obviously on another anti-fenian crusade. You have been asked to substantiate your position over and over regarding the position you chose to take. Instead of putting up or shutting up you obviously want to go on the attack, however attacking me using a hard of thinking style to analyse my position only shows you up a bit.”

    Okay. Here’s the bottom line. You either knuckle under, or you go. I’ve no preference either way. But if you cannot act civilly to others who do not share your view on this site, I will happily rescind your right to post here.

    It’s not a great deal to ask.

  • “if you cannot act civilly to others ”

    Prince Eoghan has been nothing but civil thro out these pages. He’s posted at great length in a perfectly reasonable manner and shouldn’t be censored / banned especially in comparison to some of the postings on this site and this thread.

    With the wonders of cut and paste you might try and highlight any of the Prince’s indiscretions else I’ll consider you to Section31-ite. Please check and see how they might compare to other posts on this site before I burst my side laughing.

  • RepublicanStomes

    ‘But if you cannot act civilly to others who do not share your view on this site, I will happily rescind your right to post here.’ – Mick Fealty

    mick i agree with that greek guy above me, i would like you to show me where PE was uncivil?

  • RepublicanStones

    can’t believe i spelled my own name wrong…..

  • rick

    While PE has his own views etc..on the old firm issue.

    I don’t think he deserves to be treated in this way, he’s put forward a viewpoint, and while i don’t agree with some of it, he’s put it forward in a civil manner.

    Totally over the top response.

  • Greek?

    I’ve been called many things by many people but this is a new one!!
    LOL

    Prince Eoghan – my new hero !! (in the absence of MTC) btw MTC where are you ? Please come back … you’re needed here.

  • ooppps,

    that should, of course, read MCT

  • Mick Fealty

    Guys,

    Let me just say that, I appreciate your concern. But this is private (if entirely virtual) real estate. I fork out nearly £100 a month, for the privilege of listening to some genuinely enlightening opinion, and, it has to be said, pretty vile sectarian bigotry. And it has been mostly anti Protestant, anti Unionist invective I have sustained, in the name of free speech.

    You may not agree but I live with this site day and night. If you think otherwise please feel free to cut and paste the detail!

    We have a few hard core stalwarts who put some cash in the box. I have to say that these are, as often as not hard core Republicans. But the ‘barfly idiots’ almost never do. Accordingly I feel absolutely no obligation to sustain nasty and personal invective. If you think that is wrong or anti freedom, virtual real estate on the net is almost endless. Why not stake out your own virtual blog-plot and give them a share of your own house-room?

    This is a space that, ideally, and I accept it often falls far short of that ideal, is open to anyone who wants to think and be tested on their thinking: not bigots who think anyone who disagrees with them is mentally defective as PE has, perhaps jokingly, implied.

    Stay or go. Make a case, or carp. This space is broad, liberal and accepting of criticism. But, if you don’t like it or need cold turkey, there is always the exit.

  • RepublicanStones

    relax mick all we want is an example of PE’s ‘vile sectarian bigotry’, and ‘nasty personal invective’.

  • Mick Fealty

    I am perfectly relaxed. But the burden of proof lies in the other direction. Exactly hard do you want me to work for -£100 pcm? 😉

  • lapsedmethodist

    Why can’t you all be like David Vance and move on. Hate Muslims instead!

  • Its good to see that Section 31 is alive and well Mick.
    Taigs to the back of the Blog………….

  • Dewi

    Mick – PE has posted here with passion on a subject he is clearly passionate about. I, for one, saw no “nasty personal invective” or “vile sectarian bigotry”.

  • Democratic

    I would hope that Prince wouldn’t be getting too much of a hard time for any conversions with myself (perhaps is isn’t) – although a couple of his postings to me were extremely patronising – I wouldn’t like to see anyone removed if their opinions are honestly expressed – although I firmly disagree with Prince acceptance of IRA songs at Celtic matches -I can see that he believes in what he says with no trolling involved (IMO). I do not believe any of his comments were intended to be anti-Protestant as such I must say – patronising perhaps – but not sectarian.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘burden of proof’??? absence of proof more like.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    Fair point Dem.

    But if you track back through all my interventions on this thread (though to what end, given phil’s contentless sniping I am not sure) you’ll notice that all my interventions are reasonable appeals for people to attend to the detail of the argument.

    In the end, I cannot argue the toss every time someone gets a little off the reservation. In future I’m just going to ‘Section 31’ as Phil quaintly puts it. They can appeal it afterwards, if they so wish.

  • Celtic Paranoia:
    Stephane Mahe’s ordering-off at Parkhead in 1999; Jorge Cadete’s ‘goal’ disallowed at Ibrox in 1997; in 1952 Celtic came within one vote of being expelled from the SFA because it refused to haul down the Irish flag … the list of ‘injustices’ is endless and, although fhans attention to the past is admirable, it verges on paranoia. Still, as the saying goes, ‘Just because you’re paranoid it does not mean they’re not out to get you.’

    Oopps forgot to add Mick Fealty’s SluggerOToole’s warnings / yellow card to Prince Eogan (a top notch Celtic supporter & debater) for daring to discuss The Bhoys on a Celtic thread like a ‘barfly idiot’ and costing Mick £100 per month.

    Prince you should reimburse Mick for every penny you cost him!!!

  • RepublicanStones

    the greek guy is right, lets have a whip around for P.E !

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    By my guest lads, if you think it will help! 😉

  • Posted by anonymous on Nov 30, 2007 @ 03:13 PM

    Paranoia means fear without foundation.
    Two words:
    Jim farry

  • Prince Eoghan

    Jeezo!

    Been very busy this last wee while working and family commitments to the fore. Must say am pleased with the amount of backing I’ve had here. My own opinion is that people aren’t really so much standing up for me, but in part for surety(or hope of anyway)of being given a fair crack of the whip.

    Mick

    It’s pretty obvious that you don’t like my views, the way I go about my business etc…. Fair do’s! In the cold light of day however you must realise that none of my comments warranted the kind of response received from you. I don’t blame you for hitting back at my criticism of your comments, but please keep in mind I was merely criticising the criticism. By your subtle and not so subtle references to me not knuckling down, going elsewhere, trolling etc. I feel that by extension that you are exercising a kind of censorship that defies the logic of your raison d’être for running this forum. It really is a version of “I’m taking my ball”(from whoever displeases you). Sure Democratic had a point, I remember apologising to him for mis-interpreting his comments, which were to be fair quite easily open to such misinterpretation. That said, if you were to ban everyone who is on occasion pompous or patronising and the like, where would it end? I totally take your point about time and effort, and more importantly money. Could I get clarification on this;

    >>In the end, I cannot argue the toss every time someone gets a little off the reservation. In future I’m just going to ‘Section 31’ as Phil quaintly puts it. They can appeal it afterwards, if they so wish.<

  • Phil, I believe you brought the Sky comments to our notice….

    **If Sky TV presenter Jim White had been caught on microphone mocking the Holocast, 9-11 or the Afican AIDS epidemic, do you think he’d still have a job today? Or do you think Sky would have booted this ignorant arse out of the door as soon as his latest imbecilic episode became public.

    On Wednesday night during half time of the Celtic versus Shakhtar Doneetsk CL match, Sky presenter Jim White was caught mocking the Irish Famine, which killed an estimated one million people.

    Probably thinking his microphone was off, Jim White was heard saying, “oh here we go again, the tattie famine” as the Celtic fans sang ”The Fields of Athenrye”.

    White’s partner in lunacy, Charlie Nicholas responded “Aye and they’re all eating chips singing this”

    It has been reported that Sky are “investigating” White and Nicholas’ comments.

    On another note, do you think dear reader that Tosh McKinlay would have been invited to make yesterday’s Scottish Cup draw is the former Celt had in the past been revealed as an Irish Republican sympathiser?

    Meanwhile the Celtic Trust’s Jeanette Findlay must be asking herself why Andy Goram, who was intimately associated with Loyalist paramilitary murderers, remains a Scottish media darling and assisted at yesterday’s Scottish Cup draw? **

  • O’HanrahanHanrahan

    “White’s partner in lunacy, Charlie Nicholas responded “Aye and they’re all eating chips singing this”

    They were eating Kebabs?