Orange hall razed in Republic…

YET another Orange hall has been burnt out in Ulster, this time on the other side of the border. It’s the third to be destroyed out of 10 in County Cavan over the last 20 years.

  • Dewi

    I have Joe – and think it looks co-ordinated – as I’ve said. Would, however, seriously like to be convinced of the positive nature of the order to society – because I can’t find nowt yet – in books or on line that helps me try and relate. Would appreciate advice.

  • PaddyReilly

    One thing is certain. The story about Orangies setting fire to their own lodges to claim the insurance is a lie. Who would be so silly as to underwrite an Orange Lodge? Actuarily speaking, you’d be better off insuring the bonies.

  • Mick Fealty

    I think your ‘incidental’ angle is toast too Paddy, if you check the figures?

  • tweedledee

    Turgon,

    so for people to show “tea and sympathy” is probably not going to make them feel they are helping loyalist terrorists just their own neighbours.

    Fair point, and perhaps there has been some sympathy offered on a personal level but we just don’t hear about it.

  • dewi

    Toast Mick ? – I’d watch for yellow card if I were you……

  • joeCanuck

    Hierarchy of Human Needs: (As per Maslow but some material edited out by me, for brevity).

    See level 3 Dewi.

    Level 1: reduce current physical discomforts first: hunger, thirst, pain, air, temperature, smells, balance, noise, light, and rest (sleep).

    Level 2: We try to fill our need to feel safe enough in the near future. Safety comes from trusting that our level-one needs and protection from local dangers will be reliably met in the coming days and weeks (our safety zone).

    Level 3: our need for companionship: our primitive need to feel accepted by, and part of, a group of other people. We need to feel we belong to (are accepted by) a family, tribe, group, or clan. The alternative is feeling we’re alone in the world, which is not only lonely, but less safe.

    Level 4: our need to be recognized as special and valuable by our group. We need to be more than just a featureless face in the crowd, we need to be known and appreciated.

    Level 5: the need to be self actualized. A key reason people still value Maslow’s ideas is the universal longing to be fully ourselves. That implies we each have unique talents and abilities that we long to develop and use to benefit the world if all our other need-levels are filled well enough, often enough. Then we can become creative, energized, centered, focused, and productive and live “on purpose,” “at our highest personal potential.”

  • Dawkins

    Sammy Morse,

    “Oh, and Dawkins is being a middle-class twit.”

    I love you too.

    “Most people who come from ‘the wrong side of the tracks’ are not yobs.”

    I didn’t say they were. What I said was that it’s more than likely that those responsible for the arson attacks come from the wrong side of the tracks. If that’s too un-PC for you, tough shit. If and when the culprits are apprehended (Jeeze, I recall typing these words before) I think you’ll find they’ll belong to one of the lower strata of society.

    I wish it were otherwise, mate, but facts is facts. The proles are responsible for most of the horrors we have to endure. Ever looked at the demography of our prisons?

  • kensei

    “Absolutely not, Sammy. I’m not sure where Kensai or Briso, for example, stated otherwsie.

    But I think they, rightly, resent Mick saying that is ‘their’ secret shame, or the ‘secret shame’ of anyone else they know. ”

    Hmmmm, I would have said Mick’s view is closer to my own. if you join a group, or identify yourself with a group, you take some of the responsibility of what that group does or does not do. I’ve called Unionists enough times on it.

    But The Dubliner makes a fair point over collective responsibility implying collective punishment, and I am not exactly sure what I can do – I don’t live near any of those places, and I know the location of about one orange lodge.

    So I suppose I need to think on it and evolve my view somewhat. I would like to see a Nationalist party take a hard line on these attacks, without necessarily giving blessing to the Order. We need to move away form generalised attacks to specific problems we have with it, and come down hard on dickheadism outside it, because it makes getting those changes more likely.

    I’m not sure it’s a total wash for Nationalist parties though; the Nationalist electorate gleans a lot of self satisfaction from being better than the Prods.

  • Aquifer

    The evidence points to a campaign of arson against Orange halls. It may not be many people doing it, but by doing it they say too much about their own bigotry laziness and cowardice. If they feel so strongly that there is something wrong about the orange order there is a galaxy of ways of showing it, including public demonstrations and confrontations. These take more effort than sleekit vandalism and arson however. And more friends.

  • joeCanuck

    “cowardice”

    That’s something that hasn’t been mentioned before, Aquifier.
    But you’re certainly correct. It is cowardice to go around skulking in the dark rather than standing up and proclaiming whatever point it is that you’re trying to make.

  • Absolutely not, Sammy. I’m not sure where Kensai or Briso, for example, stated otherwsie.

    I wasn’t thinking of Ken or Briso, neither of whom have said much I would disagree with here. I was thinking of some other posters like Paddy Reilly, for example. And, er, you…

    Not to put too fine a point on it, with the honourable exceptions of William Bingham and, oddly enough, Ian Paisley Sr, I don’t remember too much tea and sympathy in the other direction after the infamous Quinn arson, just for example.

    “What about themmins?” is basically The Spectator’s contribution to the debate; congratulations. Why didn’t you follow your argument to its logical conclusion and say that they were asking for it?

    The Orange Order’s behaviour in the run up to the Quinn murder was dispicable and I would have dispersed their protests with artillery fire personally but – a. it was a decade ago; b. the fact that the Orange Order rebellion basically collapsed in a matter of hours afterwards showed that most of them did actually have a conscience about it; c. two wrongs don’t make a right.

    And I don’t remember Mick getting on his high horse about Protestant community guilt, or even Orange community guilt, then either.

    Mick wasn’t blogging at all then, and neither was anyone else. Whoops!

    we shouldn’t be ascribing collective or ethnic guilt

    Kensei said most of what I wanted to say on this subject. Personally, I don’t believe in collective guilt for the same reason I don’t believe in collective rights (even setting aside the point that most nationalists and republicans abhor these attacks). But I do believe in individuals taking responsibility for making a better society. In what is still a very fragile environment, a simple statement from republicans that these attacks are wrong is very powerful. Not because there is some sort of collective guilt, but simple words give leadership within some parts of the community and settle misconceptions, potentially dangerous misconceptions, in other parts. It’s not about taking on responsibility for someone else’s wrong but taking on one’s own responsibility for making things right.

    When Sinn Féin came out earlier this year in Ardoyne and simply, without equivocation or talking about what was happening to their lot in Alliance Avenue or the Whitewell, said that attacking Protestant homes in Woodvale was wrong, it didn’t stop the attacks overnight. But it did suck some of the poison of mutual resentment and victimhood out of the situation. Sectarianism is hardly going to disappear overnight, but that is hardly a reason for shrugging one’s shoulders.

    Yes, the attacks are wrong, pointless and dangerous. It’s the OO, so I’m still finding it hard to give a fuck.

    I’m not a fan of the OO either but wishing them away isn’t going to change the fact that a very large proportion of the population have some degree of sympathy with them. You don’t need to make peace with people you agree with.

    Seriously I would honestly like some good reasons to love the order

    It’s not about loving the Order. I don’t love the Order. That’s irrelevant. Do only people I love have the right to go about their business unhindered? That’s a poor basis for any society.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Sammy,

    But didn’t you manage to feel all resentful when some people wanted to hold a parade on Donegal Pass?

    Don’t give us the lecture on respecting the rights of those you disagree with when APNI are objecting to the ‘rights’ of others.

    All that po-faced liberal bullshit until its one of your own.

    You oppose those bigoted against you, you have no sympathy for them. Snap.

    Please quit the sanctimony it so..well APNI.

  • Mick Fealty

    That’s half man/half ball Frank! Make your mind up! Play or no play??

  • Dewi

    Hells bells I just wanted some intellectual unionist argument for God’s sake. Cool down.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Ok, Mick. I thought I put it clearly but to keep you happy……….

    Even Alliance can’t keep integrity on this debate, while they’ll talk of competing rights and accommodation – once a parade is about to take place that challenges the actions of one of their members, they want it banned.

    They perceived a deliberate offence and came out fighting. It is bizarre that those that will react to the offence they see directed at Anna Lo will call for tolerance from others facing many more parades in equally controversial circumstances.

    Can I say hypocracy, Mick? Or is that half balls too?

  • Frank Sinistra

    Sammy,

    If Pride of the Raven’s hall was burnt down, how upset would you feel?

    Really angst ridden? You’d be really upset? Ford and Long would have to taken off the rebuild to voice their pain?

    Live in the real world. The ‘Raven’ is a few days worth of how Nationalists/Republicans got their views on the OO over decades and longer..look at your parties whinging over one parade that hasn’t even happened.

  • dewi

    Sorry – but why does the Orange Order exist in 2007 ?
    I’ll listen honest.

  • Outsider

    After 300+ posts the general consensus of the board has been that while everyone condemns the attacks all Nationalists believe the OO deserved what has happened.

    Out of interest does anyone know how many are in the OO in NI and in the ROI?

  • Mick Fealty

    Outsider,

    You’d need to be ignoring much of what’s been said before to come to that conclusion, and giving inordinate weight to at least one particularly loud empty vessel that has now left us indefinitely.

  • dewi

    Sorry if pissed of anyone but could a unionist poster tell me a decent book to read that tells their side ? That’s all I want gospel honest.

  • Frank,

    with the greatest of respect to your carefully analysed socialist position – ballicks! And congratulations on the cynical but clever deployment of a red herring.

    I didn’t say anything about supporting Orange parades, come what may. And I’m not even sure how you could read that into what I said. And you can check my own record on Orange parades which are transparent coat-trailing exercises; for example, you could check the North Belfast News’ coverage of the Tour of the North Clifton Park Ave-Antrim Road route, back in the day (I think there’s even a near full-page photo of my then youthful visage on one). Condemning attacks on Orange Halls, or even saying that Northern Ireland has to find space for the Orange Order to express itself peacefully and free from threat, is a long way from condoning everything it does.

    The band parade (not Orange parade) is hardly a threat to Anna Lo; in fact Anna Lo really ought to write the Pride of the Raven a thank-you note for the free publicity. But it was obviously intended as a threat to the Chinese community in the Pass; after all Anna doesn’t live on the Pass, and Anna’s office isn’t on the Pass, but most of the businesses on the Pass are Chinese-owned and, funnily, Anna is also Chinese. Er, and we were talking about collective guilt being a bad thing a moment ago…

    Given that an end to attacks on the Chinese community in the Pass has been achieved in the past year, and that like a lot of things in this part of the world, that’s fairly fragile, the last thing the Donegall Pass needs is a parade by outsiders with little understanding of that community which is only going there because it is perceived as Belfast’s Chinatown. Don’t take my word for it – talk to the white, working-class, community leadership on the Pass. That doesn’t and shouldn’t affect the habitual, well-established, band parades on the Pass which, much as they aren’t my cup of tea, pass off without incident and ought not to be affected. But ask bands and the Orders in South Belfast why they aren’t exactly leaping up and down to support this parade.

    Part of me actually wants the parade to go ahead. If they want to freeze their arses off on a convoluted five mile route on the last Saturday in November, hell slap it up them, I hope the sleet buries them. But then, I have the luxury of not actually living in the area or being an instant target because of my skin pigmentation.

    If the shit hits the fan (which I doubt it will, because there is no support for this parade in South Belfast, but it remains a risk), Anna Lo won’t suffer but a lot of innocent people will, just because of the colour of their skin. Maybe you can console them by explaining how you scored a cheap point on Slugger by bringing the subject into a completely different debate?

  • What I said was that it’s more than likely that those responsible for the arson attacks come from the wrong side of the tracks. If that’s too un-PC for you, tough shit

    No you didn’t, you said that (and I quote post number 239):

    “If one happens to be born on the wrong side of the tracks, it’s pretty hard to avoid being a yob.”

    This is nonsense. Most people born on the so-called wrong side of the tracks are not yobs, and saying they are is just a convenient way for middle-class society to gaze Pilate-like at the crime problems besetting working-class communities, themselves largely a result of the criminal justice policies espoused by the middle-classes, and blame the victims.

    I wish it were otherwise, mate, but facts is facts. The proles are responsible for most of the horrors we have to endure. Ever looked at the demography of our prisons?

    I’d love to stay and chat, but it’s 1.30 am and I come from the New Lodge, so I suppose I’d better head up to the Antrim Road and mug a random stranger. After all, I was born on the wrong side of the tracks…

  • It is bizarre that those that will react to the offence they see directed at Anna Lo will call for tolerance from others facing many more parades in equally controversial circumstances.

    You’re assuming that Alliance members don’t live in places with controversial Orange parades and that Alliance has always called for residents to be tolerant of controversial Orange parades.

    Wrong on both counts. But why let the facts spoil a good story.

  • Outsider

    You’d need to be ignoring much of what’s been said before to come to that conclusion, and giving inordinate weight to at least one particularly loud empty vessel that has now left us indefinitely.

    Mick I understand what you have said but underneath the frontal condemnations there seems to be a lack of concern and some posts indicate that the OO deserved what they got.

    ……….

    could a unionist poster tell me a decent book to read that tells their side ? That’s all I want gospel honest.

    Dewi there are none but I do recommend two newspapers namely the newsletter and the orange standard.

  • Outsider

    Wrong on both counts. But why let the facts spoil a good story.

    Sammy

    Surely there are Alliance party members in the OO.

  • Mick Fealty

    I’m as instinctively against consensus as any Orangeman. It requires the reduction of meaningful parts to a dull caricature of the whole.

  • Dawkins

    Sammy Morse,

    “Most people born on the so-called wrong side of the tracks are not yobs, and saying they are is just a convenient way for middle-class society to gaze Pilate-like at the crime problems besetting working-class communities, themselves largely a result of the criminal justice policies espoused by the middle-classes, and blame the victims.”

    Huh?!

    Last time I looked, the crime problems besetting working-class communities had their origin in said communities. They’re the result of yob culture, manifesting in a disregard for people and property, largely to blame on poor parenting over many generations. How the hell are the middle classes to blame for this? Are we the spide’s keeper?

  • kensei

    “Mick I understand what you have said but underneath the frontal condemnations there seems to be a lack of concern and some posts indicate that the OO deserved what they got.”

    You are taking what is on the page and applying your own prejudices.

    I have zero love of the OO. They are an organisation that stands for a lot of things that are wrong in Unionism to Nationalism and it badly needs reform – such as that which is seemingly going on in Scotland.

    But I find the idea of a concerted campaign against Orange Halls disturbing, and I find the idea that it is something somehow intrinsic to Nationalism even more so. Aside from being morally wrong and plain stupid, do these things get us any further to a United Ireland? Do they reassure Unionists that they would be respected and full members of such a society? Do they speak to the values and Constitution of the Republic I want to see built? Like f*ck they do. They screw every political goal I have worth having.

    I am a republican. I take that seriously. My flag is one third orange. I take that seriously too. However bad I think the OO is, they don’t deserve it and they don’t have anything coming. By closing your mind and refusing to recognise the fact that Nationalists on this site are more than just mindless anti-Prod robots, you lose any hope of communicating and ultimately, just damage yourself.

    I need to go to bed, now.

  • Surely there are Alliance party members in the OO.

    Not the last time I checked, and I know a goodly percentage of them personally, but you’re welcome to prove me wrong. Masons, we have a handful, but Orangemen I have never encountered.

    I mean, compare the principles of the OO with the principles of Alliance – it’s not a great fit, is it? There are plenty of Evangelical Prods in Alliance, but they tend to be of the decidedly non-Orange type.

    They’re the result of yob culture, manifesting in a disregard for people and property, largely to blame on poor parenting over many generations.

    I note that you do not dispute your original comment which I found offensive towards me personally, and my family and neighbours, and is simply inaccurate.

    Disregard for people is sadly not a solely working-class phenomenon. The brute ignorance and rudeness that characterises too much of today’s social interaction is just as prevalent among the middle-classes, although less prominent here than across the water or in Dublin (the rest of the Republic is more civilised), which is one of the main reasons I came back here. Just go to any bourgeois suburban area around Belfast, and soak up the grasping chav ambience.

    As for the generational character of crime, look at the impact of progressive education (the result of pressure by the ‘progressive’ middle-classes); blame-the-victim criminal justice system (ditto) a no-responsibility welfare system (just the same). It’s not that I’m hang ’em and flog ’em, but you have to wonder at a criminal justice system that finds time to lock up TV licence evaders while bigoted or just plain hoodish assaulters, pipe bombers and joy riders face a detection rate of under 10%. None of this came from the working-classes.

    Obviously, I believe that criminals themselves are proximately and primarily responsible for their own actions; but your attempt to cast blame on huge swathes of the population for the actions of a few, and a few who largely victimise the poorest in society, is sadly typical of the new ‘progressive’ chattering classes. A group to which, given your arse-clenchingly right on username I presume you belong.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    Sean,

    You’ve been red carded. Write me in two weeks if you want back in.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “could a unionist poster tell me a decent book to read that tells their side ? That’s all I want gospel honest.

    Dewi there are none”

    er..wrong
    Ruth Dudley Edwards book “the Faithful Tribe” is OK, though a bit of “my favourite Orangemen”
    Eric Kaufmann has written a scholarly and accurate account of Orangeism
    You could even buy Brian Kennaway’s book, read the historical stuff, and tear out the recent stuff all about him
    Finally “The Twelfth- what it means to me”
    ( Gordon Lucy ed)has many interesting pieces.

    As for your earlier posts the Orange Order is not in favour of majority rule, except in the vaguest sense that it would probably be happy enough if it returned. But it doesn’t lobby Unionist politicians to endorse the policy, or encourage members to . It simply says that Orangemen should vote for the Unionist(s) of their choice.

  • Briso

    >Briso,

    >I’ve been reluctant to answer your question for two reasons. One, simply answering shifts the
    >emphasis from the original story.

    You did that with the final paragraph you posted. A little hare sent running, after which I went.

    >And two, you are asking questions about where/who the blame/shame/disgrace should lie
    >that I simply cannot answer. That is for individuals (including you) to decide.

    Mick, you’re a disgrace. Why is for you to decide. See what I mean? Not really fair or reasonable is it? I already told you Mick, I feel no disgrace or shame. Do you think I should? How would I know, based on your posts, if you’re ‘talking to me’? If you, like the admirable Turgon, have a suggestion for how one might express to Protestants in the West that they are welcomed, by all means give it in a constructive manner. But smear tactics backed up by a stubborn refusal to recognise the injustice of your comments or even answer basic questions won’t help the halls.

    >That there is little visible solidarity is the disgrace, in my view.

    Here it is again.

    “But that this ‘campaign’ (that no one will own up to running it doesn’t mean doesn’t exist) has continued virtually unabated for three years now is an indictment, not of the Orange Order, but of the lack of solidarity with those minority Protestant populations.

    Whatever the strong feelings many have about the Orange Order; that is nothing short of a disgrace.”

    Not visible solidarity, Mick, the fact it has continued for three years. We, ‘the Northern Ireland Catholic population’ could stop this but haven’t. Offensive crap Mick. Take it back or tell me how I can help stop it, and why I should be the one charged with this task purely because I was baptised a Catholic.

    And to repeat, the campaign is a disgrace. It is surely organised to some degree even if there is substantial copycatting by individual youths. Sammy Morse has posted lots of good sense on this matter.

    Kensei, I’m not sure if I understood correctly your earlier point, but apparently unlike both you and Mick, I don’t consider myself part of your tribe or anyone else’s. I think for myself and in that I’m not alone (as my longwinded attempts to get you to bow to the Queen of England will partially testify). I don’t take responsibility for anyone else’s actions and where I come up short I’m open to suggestions. ‘Collective responsibility’ my arse. If I’ve misunderstood you, sorry, I’m intersted to hear more.

  • Suilven

    Dewi

    ‘Sorry – but why does the Orange Order exist in 2007 ?
    I’ll listen honest.’

    Why does the Eisteddfod exist in 2007?
    I’ll listen, honest

  • Dawkins

    Sammy Morse,

    I hardly know where to begin with a reply to your last post. I’m also mindful that “our” argument is tangential to the discussion. For that reason I’ll simply say the following.

    The producers of “The Blame Game” would enjoy your contribution. Are you seriously suggesting that the middle classes, represented by the judiciary, teachers, and social legislators are to blame for yobbishness in our society?

    So this weekend when I see the yobs in my area staggering about at 2 a.m., blind drunk and attacking anything that moves — and parked cars and telephone boxes that don’t — I’ll tell myself I and my fellow chatterers are to blame.

    Because “we” allowed them to drink. “We” allow them to rob, rape and destroy with relative impunity.

    You imagine that the yobs are a minority. Sadly, they ain’t. And their numbers are growing. “We” can’t build prisons fast enough to contain them.

    And I’ll bet any money they, and not “us”, torched the Orange halls.

  • Paddy Reilly

    When someone burns down your house, shed or garage, the first question you must ask yourself is, what have I done to piss someone off and who? What pointless aggressive interchange have I got into that this is the latest manifestation and escalation of? When someone burns down your school, looking in last week’s page of the punishment book often supplies the culprit.

    The modus operandi of the OO is rather strange. They spend the month of July pissing everyone off, and telling all the Taigs and Chinamen to grow up and stop whining, then the rest of the year when it’s open season on their lodges doing the whining themselves. As I said once before, it would be better if they could just learn to torch their own lodges, and cut out the middleman.

    I recognise that the Cavan OO is minimally responsible for such disorders, but that’s the way retaliation works: the easy target, the straggler, the remote dweller gets picked on.

    In England, 10% of fires are caused by arson. In Northern Ireland, 50%. Children have a habit of setting fire to unoccupied buildings, and Orange Lodges are an unusually deserving cause: patriotism is the last refuge of a fire-bug.

    If you are an organisation that typically specialises in a pointless aggressive interchange, then you must take reasonable precautions to secure your property. With Orange Lodges, I’d say the answer is either develop the land around and assign it to reliable, resident Orangemen, or sell the lodge land off for redevelopment and rebuild it where such Orangemen are to be found.

    If the Felons’ Club organisation were to start up branches on the Ards Peninsula and County Antrim, I’m sure their premises would be torched as well.

  • PaddyReilly

    In case of pedantry: I meant to say remote, rural, Protestant County Antrim.

  • Dawkins

    Paddy Reilly,

    “Orange Lodges are an unusually deserving cause”

    Whoops! You’ll be sorry you said that. I’ve got in the neck for much less :0)

    Rest of post spot on of course.

  • nmc

    Dawkins,

    Most torched orange halls are in rural locations. Not too many sink estates in the arsehole of Cavan, so how do we define these proles?

    Outsider,

    try reading some of the posts from nationalists, a large number of which condemn this. Only a small number (IMO your opposite number) are sufficiently bitter to say that this should continue or that the OO “deserves” it.

    Dewi,

    One book I read recently – Men That God Made Mad by Derek Lundy (descendant of the original Siege of Derry Lundy), was an interesting perspective as he’s from a Unionist family who emigrated to Canada and as such has some fairly independent views.

  • PaddyReilly

    Lundy’s is an interesting book, but he does not describe the OO from an Orangeman’s point of view, which is what Dewi wants. Ruth Dudley-Ellis’s is the best for that, she makes no pretence of objectivity.

  • Dawkins

    PaddyReilly,

    “Not too many sink estates in the arsehole of Cavan, so how do we define these proles?”

    Er, rural proles?

  • Dewi

    Darth – strange – read Kaufmann this week – I asked in a previous post if you regarded him as biased against the order. I read the book attempting to put aside my prejudice – trouble is finished it re-inforced to some degree.
    There is an element of ethnic supremacy there, perhaps, to be kind subconcious but certainly there.
    After reading all that stuff on Drumcree I’d just ban all parades from all sides, forever.

    Why does Eisteddfod exist ? – An evolving cultural institution which is a good laugh and never seems to threaten anyone.

  • An Céilleachaireach Rúa

    Dewi

    Bollocks, when the National Eistedfodd was in Bangor two years many Gogs were in tears from the jackbooted oppression of the Proto-Saes Hwntws marching in a supremacist fashion through Blaenau Ffestiniogg and Maesgeirchen speaking in their strange wibbly tongue and asking, “Church or Chapel, butty?”

  • dewi

    Hunting Fijians more like….

    A number have advised Dudley Edwards but just can’t take her seriously since her famine nonsense….. I’ll try her though.

  • PaddyReilly

    Dawkins, the piece you replied to was by NMC, not me. I am in perfect agreement with everything you said on this thread.

    As to whoever asked about the Eisteddfod (Suilven, actually), and why it has survived, the truth is it hasn’t. It has nothing to do with the mediaeval Eisteddfod. What a rip-off though, first you have to pay to get on the Maes, then you’re surrounded by people wanting to sell you their literature, and you have to pay again to get into the Pabell.

    But it is wonderfully inclusive. The Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox churches are all there, wanting to sell you their literature. Everyone has a stondyn, even the gwrwgydwyr. The only people who are excluded are boozers. So it has kept abreast with the times, and might better be called a Politicallycorrectfod.

  • PaddyReilly

    just can’t take her seriously since her famine nonsense

    Dewi, you have to choose between an author(ess) who you can take seriously and one who puts things from the Orangeman’s perspective. You can’t have both.

  • dewi

    Eisteddfod (National that is) is a bit expensive but you can spend all week there and itks a complete cultural experience of all aspects of Welsh language.

    Dudley Edwards.mmm – can’t remember name of book on famine but it made me so mad I chucked out of bedroom window….

  • dewi

    And finally on ‘Steddfod we ain’t got Y Babell Oren yet but certain the Loyal Order would be welcome.

  • Seany

    Tweedleede claims that the Orange Order history has earned them little respect from Catholics, and attach to the Orange Order the same sympathy the Orange Halls when torched. He also claims that, Catholics don’t find Protestant offensive, only the Orange Order.I suppose that the same claims could be made as regard how the Protestant community view the torching of GAA Halls, as the GAA is regarded as the equal of the Orange Order within the Catholic community, with only one exception that it does not have a marching band wing. Either way it does not make it right to vandalise either property , just because of what both out dated bodies stand for.

  • dewi

    The GAA – Orange order equivalence theory again…”Roughly a third of those expelled ..(From) 1964-2002 committed the offence of marrying or cohabiting with a Catholic…11 per cent ejected for participating in Catholic…baptisms, services of funerals” (Kaufnann, 2007)
    Has the GAA ever expelled anyone for marrying a Protestant ?

  • Cromwell

    Dont know Dewi, but god forbid you’d be a prod playing it, especially if you happen to have relations murdered by IRA “heros”.

  • nmc

    but god forbid you’d be a prod playing it, especially if you happen to have relations murdered by IRA “heros”.

    If the GAAs response was good enough for Darren, then it ought to be good enough for the rest of us. Also Dewi is talking about the OO officially kicking people out, the Darren Graham analogy comes to an end there. The GAA officially did nothing to offend him, fans were responsible for that. The OO equivelant (if a comparison were to be made) to the GAA fans would be the hoards of drunken dickheads that follow the parades.

  • dewi

    Accepted in practice as GAA has been a nationalist body since inception few Protestants play (only in the North however) – Orange Order policies are sectarian – intersting question and don’t know answer do AOH have similar rules ?

  • Dawkins

    PaddyReilly,

    “Dawkins, the piece you replied to was by NMC, not me. I am in perfect agreement with everything you said on this thread.”

    Gabh mo leithscéal, Paddy :0)

  • Brian Boru

    Naturally I condemn it but the fact you say its the 3rd time in 20 yrs demonstrates how rare it is for this sort of thing to happen in the South.

  • lib2016

    Dewi,

    AoH is a Catholic Irish-American Association. It was imported into NI by Devlin, the constitutional Nationalist leader in NI in the early years of the last century as a counter to the rise of SF.

  • dewi

    Can’t google or would find out myself but:
    AOH origins not quite as straightforad TBOMK
    Anyone know if they allow members to marry outside the faith ?

  • Cromwell

    “The modus operandi of the OO is rather strange. They spend the month of July pissing everyone off, and telling all the Taigs and Chinamen to grow up and stop whining, then the rest of the year when it’s open season on their lodges doing the whining themselves. As I said once before, it would be better if they could just learn to torch their own lodges, and cut out the middleman.”

    What a bunch of crap, or better still, fuel for the fire.
    Just you keep on excusing it, do you remember what I said about bile & bitterness Paddy, you’d better get your bib, you are the very definition of a po-faced sectarian bigot.

    “If you are an organisation that typically specialises in a pointless aggressive interchange, then you must take reasonable precautions to secure your property. With Orange Lodges, I’d say the answer is either develop the land around and assign it to reliable, resident Orangemen, or sell the lodge land off for redevelopment and rebuild it where such Orangemen are to be found.”

    PaddyReilly, property developer, burn ’em out & move ’em into Orange ghettoes.

  • Cromwell

    “The GAA officially did nothing to offend him, fans were responsible for that”

    Hoards of drunken dickhead GAA fans & dickhead players, players being GAA members.

    Dewi, the GAA constitution is pretty discriminatory if you happen to be a unionist.
    Is the OO any more sectarian than the Roman Catholic Church or most other religious bodies?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Harry

    “Leave out the psychobabble Sean, I wiped the floor with the last clown who tried that I assure you I can do the same with you. Stick to the issues boy.”

    Yeah, clearly I was way off the mark with my comments about your vanity and preening narcissism!

  • PaddyReilly

    Cromwell

    Well I seem, succesfully, to have pissed you off, from a distance of several hundred miles, and without the aid of a Lambeg drum. But what I don’t understand is, if pissing people off makes you a po-faced sectarian bigot, why the Orangemen should escape that condmnation?

  • lib2016

    dewi,

    The AoH in America is a very different organisation but as far as I know both cater for the ‘traditional’ Irish Catholic and wouldn’t be too bothered about whom one married.

    I believe the old ‘ne timere’ thing is gone which would make that question even more irrelevant.

    In NI there are rural areas such as Kilkeel, originally a unionist fishing village now facing the usual demographic changes and with the usual rows about territory, where they are involved in minor arguments about marches.

  • dewi

    When I said I’d ban all parades I was serious by the way. I suspect first couple of hundred years would be difficult but it would work in the end. Thanks for stuff on AOH – I’ll have think on GAA.

  • PaddyReilly

    “you remember what I said about bile & bitterness Paddy”

    No, but I think you should know that like the Murphy’s, I am not bitter. The last Assembly election was probably the most enjoyable event of my life. The next one I expect to be even better.

  • Outsider

    Not the last time I checked, and I know a goodly percentage of them personally, but you’re welcome to prove me wrong. Masons, we have a handful, but Orangemen I have never encountered.

    I mean, compare the principles of the OO with the principles of Alliance – it’s not a great fit, is it? There are plenty of Evangelical Prods in Alliance, but they tend to be of the decidedly non-Orange type.

    Sammy Morse

    Agreed the OO’s principles of patriotism, civil and religious freedom for all and freedom of expression would be an awkward bedfellow to the wishy washy principles of Alliance.

    I find it impossible to believe that not one Alliance party member is is the OO, I know the Alliance is a very small party but come on. Besides I know several Orangemen quite well and I would not have known they were in the order until I seen them parade at the twelfth.

  • Outsider

    Outsider,

    try reading some of the posts from nationalists, a large number of which condemn this. Only a small number (IMO your opposite number) are sufficiently bitter to say that this should continue or that the OO “deserves” it

    NMC

    And who is my opposite number? Besides who has came out and condemned these attacks without concluding their condemnation with an excuse for the attack.

  • Agreed the OO’s principles of patriotism, civil and religious freedom for all and freedom of expression would be an awkward bedfellow to the wishy washy principles of Alliance.

    You start off with that (over the top nonsense when I wasn’t even trying to be rude to the Orangemen) and then flatly contradict yourself by saying:

    I find it impossible to believe that not one Alliance party member is is the OO

    Not great debating skills, here.

    Do you also find it difficult to believe that it’s your mummy and daddy who put those presents beneath the tree on Christmas morning and not Santa Claus?

    Anyway, it’s an irrelevant side issue. Nighty night.

  • dewi

    Totally off topic but in Glasgow and:
    1) Getting directions to the hotel the final instruction I had was “turn right at the kilt shop”
    2) Had supper with PE and wonderful family watching Celtic beat Benfica.
    3) Taxi driver to hotel was a Pakistani who lectured me in a broad scots accent about the effect of the Musharaff emergency on the North Western Pakistan tribal loyalties.

    Life is sometimes wonderful. Nos Da.

  • joeCanuck

    Me for one, Outsider.

  • Dawkins

    Outsider,

    Seems to me you’re still confusing excuses and reasons.

    Like several others here, I gave reasons why the OO had left themselves open to attack. They’ve made many enemies. This is a fact.

    But mentioning the OO’s unfortunate behaviour is quite a ways from condoning or excusing the attacks.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Has the GAA ever expelled anyone for marrying a Protestant ?”

    No , but it did used to discipline those who played “foreign games”- y’know like rugby or football of the imperialist type.

    Different organisation- different concerns- same prejudice

  • Dewi

    “No , but it did used to discipline those who played “foreign games”- y’know like rugby or football of the imperialist type.”

    True – but does seem to evolve whlist trying to retain it’s historic origins. And doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, meddle in Party Politics. Orange Order fairly big and direect impact on Party Politics. Darth – I’m trying to understand and will read Dudley Edwards when I get home…

    Joe I get your point about digressing. Just to understand why Catholics haven’t rushed to help rebuild these halls (which has been one of Mick’s issues over the last months) some tangential discussion justified ?

  • darth rumsfeld

    This Musharref bloke- arresting and beating up lawyers.

    How come he’s gets such a bad press? I’d vote for that

  • joeCanuck

    Dewi,
    I do believe that any discussion is worthwhile, even if it brings out the worst in some of us.It can’t but help in the long term to have some understanding of the beliefs and fears of “themmuns”.
    I don’t think that this was the right thread to conflate the two issues. It somehow seems, to me, to lessen the condemnation of these attacks on property that probably seems like a second home to some Orangemen.
    Some Orangemen are bad; the vast majority are not.
    Same as the rest of us.

  • Outsider

    What I would like to add to this discussion is the fact that over 300 Orangemen were murdered by the ira during the troubles, people should remember this.

  • SamMaguire

    dewi,

    Has the GAA ever expelled anyone for marrying a Protestant ?

    No, but they have had members who were married to Protestants murdered. Although it was Protestants who murdered them.

  • Suilven

    Magnificent contribution there, SamMaguire. Care to postulate how many Protestants were killed by GAA members while you’re about it?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “What I would like to add to this discussion is the fact that over 300 Orangemen were murdered by the ira during the troubles, people should remember this.”

    actually not strictly right- though the vast majority of the 306 we’ve identified were. Some were killed by the other republican terrorist groups, some by loyalists, some by police and army

    “And doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, meddle in Party Politics. Orange Order fairly big and direect impact on Party Politics”
    well we walked away from the UUP- and contrary to popular belief did not take a position on the GFA. And the Orange Order hasn’t summoned a Prime Minister of Northern ireland to Grand Lodge to explain himself since Brian Faulkner in 1970…

    Another book I would recommend is a novel called “The Sons of Levi” set in Monaghan post-psrtition and is a sympathetic portrayal of Protestants on the wrong side of the border. Sorry- forget the author’s name

  • darth rumsfeld

    Sons of Levi by Daragh McDonald

  • dewi

    Thanks – will try it.