Why Paisley backed two anti-monarch rebels…

IAN Paisley must be the last person you’d think would back two women who were drowned at the stake rather than utter the words: ‘God save the King’. But yesterday in Scotland the First Minister told of how his firebrand Protestantism was influenced by the Covenanter martyrs, perhaps another illustration of how the idea of Ulster loyalty to the Crown is a highly conditional form of allegiance.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    Ulster’s loyalty to the Crown is not highly conditional at all. We support her majesty as the symbol for British leadership, not the all powerful monarch of yesteryear which dictated religion onto each and everyone of it’s subjects.

    The Glorious revolution provided the Monarch and the people of Britain and Ireland with Religious and civil liberty for all. This is what our current Monarch signifies to us Ulster people, it’s not a Protestant head count or a Protestant Monarch we take pride in, it’s the principles that our Protestant Monarchy created that we hold dear. The freedom for all subjects to decide independently what religion they uphold is why us Ulster people value the British Monarchy.

  • MacAedha

    Ulster’s my homeland
    ‘The freedom for all subjects to decide independently what religion they uphold is why us Ulster people value the British Monarchy.’

    I suppose this is why it took a democratically elected (and internationally embarrassed) british legislature to pass four pieces of legislation to afford Catholics in the north east of Ireland equal rights to employment held by those of setteller stock, institute a points based housing selection scheme with a government body to oversee its work and still fail to pay Catholic schools the same level of grant paid to state schools, yet not reduce the tax-take from Catholic’s.
    As to the main point of the thread,
    ‘But yesterday in Scotland the First Minister told of how his firebrand Protestantism was influenced by the Covenanter martyrs, perhaps another illustration of how the idea of Ulster loyalty to the Crown is a highly conditional form of allegiance.’
    My wise old Grandfather (an associate of the first minister’s father) was obviously right when he said ‘It’s not the crown they’re interested in, it’s the half-crown’

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    ‘I suppose this is why it took a democratically elected (and internationally embarrassed) british legislature to pass four pieces of legislation to afford Catholics in the north east of Ireland equal rights to employment held by those of setteller stock, institute a points based housing selection scheme with a government body to oversee its work and still fail to pay Catholic schools the same level of grant paid to state schools, yet not reduce the tax-take from Catholic’s.’

    As for the housing and employment issue, there was nothing wrong with Unionist controlled housing or Unionist businesses. The real issue was the fact that republicans wouldn’t accept they were living and working in British Ulster. They didn’t want to mix and encouraged other Catholics to do likewise. The housing issue was never a problem until IRA/Sinn Fein demanded bigger and better republican ghettos. The Unionist-lead housing executive wanted to expand the towns outside of Belfast, instead of creating urban ghettos which were eating into the countryside. Areas like the Falls, Andersonstown, etc had no need to be expanded, but Republicans had other ideas, they demanded to be homed into these ghettos instead of accepting homes in towns outside of our capital city, Belfast. The Unionist lead housing development of the 60’s and 70’s was encouraging Protestants and Catholics to mix, but IRA/Sinn Fein had different ideas, they wanted Republican ghettos set-up. In one night, there was over 100 republican families moved into the Falls after the Protestant families were forced to leave the area…..and they have the cheek to blame the Unionist-lead housing executive.

    As for the employment issue, I worked with many RC’s in so-called ‘Unionist companys’ and had no bother with them or them with me. I suppose they never had a grudge becoming workmates with me in British Ulster, maybe the people you know and the cases that are highlighted in the news have been pre-planned by those who can’t accept working in a British Ulster?

    …as for the state not providing all the funding for RC schools, I fail to see how this is in conflict with my previous post that the Glorious Revolution provided religious freedon and liberty for all ?….You still have your religion?

  • Nevin

    Perhaps it depends on the monarch, BG. This occurred during the reign of Charles II. The leader of the military operations during the ‘Killing Times’ was his brother, the future James II ….

  • MacAedha

    Ulster’s my homeland.
    ‘As for the employment issue, I worked with many RC’s in so-called ‘Unionist companys’ and had no bother with them or them with me. I suppose they never had a grudge becoming workmates with me in British Ulster, maybe the people you know and the cases that are highlighted in the news have been pre-planned by those who can’t accept working in a British Ulster?’

    You perhaps need to look again at your constitutional law, no part of Ireland ever was, is or will ever be british….and what are all the unionists here going to do when their Scottish bretheren cede from the union?
    As for still having our religion, this is despite the best efforts of the people who signed the covenant to remove political, social, economic and religious rights from us.
    Rather than remembering some minority event occouring 95 years ago get on with now, learn that you have no chance of displacing the indigenious populace, nor their religion nor their culture and if you really want to remember the past do not force it down the throats of us.

  • Turgon

    This issue is one I find very interesting. I cannot pretend to be representative of fundamentalist protestants but these women’s sacrifice is well know and has been recounted for as long as I can remember.

    I am fairly pro monarchy and as I have said before feel completely British. That does not mean I always approve of everything that has been or is still done by and in the name of the crown. I do feel that continuance of the monarchy is the best option for the UK.

    Elenwe and her family are probably less pro monarchy than I am having little in the way of orange connection. There is a fairly strong vein of “There is none King save Christ alone” in a certain segment of evangelical fundamentalist Ulster protestantism.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    MacAedha
    ‘You perhaps need to look again at your constitutional law, no part of Ireland ever was, is or will ever be British….and what are all the unionists here going to do when their Scottish brethren cede from the union?’

    LoL, well at least you have vivid and imaginative dreams. Irish and Ireland is the creation of the Norman English. Talk about being English bound, the Irish have alot of English ancestry, there’s very few Gaels in Eire now-days. all the Irish Gael stuff is fantasy, it’s mostly myth.

    MacAedha
    ‘As for still having our religion, this is despite the best efforts of the people who signed the covenant to remove political, social, economic and religious rights from us.
    Rather than remembering some minority event occurring 95 years ago get on with now, learn that you have no chance of displacing the indigenous populace, nor their religion nor their culture and if you really want to remember the past do not force it down the throats of us.’

    LoL, 95 years ago a republican band of terrorists butchered and murdered those who disagreed with them, they murdered their own people because they wore a British jumper and raincoat, they murdered innocent Irish people and imposed fear onto those locals….what a magnificent history [rolls eyes]

  • MacAedha

    ‘‘You perhaps need to look again at your constitutional law, no part of Ireland ever was, is or will ever be British….and what are all the unionists here going to do when their Scottish brethren cede from the union?’

    LoL, well at least you have vivid and imaginative dreams. Irish and Ireland is the creation of the Norman English. Talk about being English bound, the Irish have alot of English ancestry, there’s very few Gaels in Eire now-days. all the Irish Gael stuff is fantasy, it’s mostly myth. ‘
    I think you do’nt get what I was saying, britain is, England, Scotland and Wales, not here, not ever.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    Ulster’s my homeland

  • Reader

    MacAedha: You perhaps need to look again at your constitutional law, no part of Ireland ever was, is or will ever be british
    Do you have a reference? The UK constitution is a bit tricky. And you may be mixing up law with geography. Because the mainland is called ‘Great Britain’, and doesn’t include the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, or Arran, all of which are still British. So Northern Ireland is British, both as a consequence of contributing a part of the UK Parliament, and as follows from the following chunks of the GFA:
    “recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
    may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.”

    “The participants also note that the two Governments have accordingly undertaken in the context of this comprehensive political agreement, to propose and support changes in, respectively, the Constitution of Ireland and in British legislation relating to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.”

  • MacAedha

    Reader,
    Do you have a reference? The UK constitution is a bit tricky. And you may be mixing up law with geography. Because the mainland is called ‘Great Britain’, and doesn’t include the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, or Arran, all of which are still British. So Northern Ireland is British, both as a consequence of contributing a part of the UK Parliament, and as follows from the following chunks of the GFA:
    You are right in that constitutional law and geography are tricky, after all Bunreacht na hEireann ’til 1998 was clear that it applied throughout the ‘whole of the national terrority’
    What you might be getting wrong is the present constitutional position of the six counties, it is, as agreed under GFA part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
    The citizenship to which people born in the six counties are entitled, and the passport which is issued to those choosing it is that of citizens of the United Kingdom, not Britain which is not a state but an amalgam of states within this United Kingdom.
    The government in London does not sign treaties nor international agreements in the name of Britain but instead the UK.

  • MacAedha

    Ulster’s my homeland.
    Does this include Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal which have been part of Ulster, as was Louth, since prior to the arrival of St. Patrick never mind the Norman/British

  • james orr

    MacAehda

    “…remembering some minority event occouring 95 years ago…”

    I hope you realise that the Wigtown Martyr Covenanters refer to Scotland’s National Covenant of 1638, and not Ulster’s Solemn League and Covenant of 1912.

  • MacAedha

    James orr
    hope you realise that the Wigtown Martyr Covenanters refer to Scotland’s National Covenant of 1638, and not Ulster’s Solemn League and Covenant of 1912.
    Of course. Given those who signed the Covenant in Belfast 1912 were not martyred.

  • MacAedha

    Woops martyred

  • james orr

    In the late 1600s, Daniel Defoe (yes, the writer of Robinson Crusoe) reported to the King that 18,000 Covenanters had been killed. Thousands more had fled to Ulster (for example Rev Alexander Peden, to whom there is a memorial close to Slemish) and perhaps as many as 7000 were deported to America and the Carribean as plantation slaves.

    A shipload of 250 Covenanters bound for slavery sank in a storm off the Orkneys, where the largest single Covenanter memorial remains to this day.

    The Covenanter experience remains one of the foundation stones of the “Ulster Protestant” psyche; both Scotland’s National Covenant of 1638 and its successor Scotland’s Solemn League and Covenant of 1643 are hugely significant documents/events in the history of these islands.

  • Reader

    MacAedha: The citizenship to which people born in the six counties are entitled, and the passport which is issued to those choosing it is that of citizens of the United Kingdom, not Britain which is not a state but an amalgam of states within this United Kingdom.
    I have my passport open in front of me. It says “Nationality/Nationalité British Citizen”.
    I know what the “UK” is (it’s a country), I know what “Great Britain” is (it’s an island), and I know what “British” means (it’s a nationality and it’s an adjective. In a spirit of pedantry, and while I fully respect your own rights and options under the GFA, Northern Ireland is British.

  • MacAedha

    Reader
    In a spirit of pedantry
    I rather expect you and I will never agree on this matter.
    However when I read constitutional law N Ireland was not a part of Britain, granted this was before the GFA but the UK Parliament would have to be a bit more specific if they wished to incorporate the six counties into Britain, which is surely what integrationist Unionists are all about.

  • Sam Hanna

    Why should Catholics schools be funded? No other religion is aacoorded this privilege from the British Tax Payer in N.Ierland.

    All Catholic kids are welcome at their local State Schools like everybody else!

  • The Third Policeman

    My local state school flies a union jack so if you don’t mind I’ll decline your generous offer.

  • james orr

    To bring things back on-thread, the Covenanter story was one which was never taught in schools, but which was passed down in the home.

    During the 1800s right up until the mid 1900s there was an astonishing publishing “industry” for Covenanter books, both popular histories and novels, set during the 1638 – 1688 period. They sold in large volumes in Scotland and NI; Sunday School prizegivings were an annual opportunity for local churches to meet the popular demand for the story by giving books about the Covenanters to the kids.

    I’ve gathered up dozens of these books from elderly relatives, and a visit to the religious section in most second hand bookshops in NI and Scotland will usually yield a few.

  • As Tic

    So Northern Ireland is British and northern Ireland is Irish.

  • Nevin

    MacAedha, a few years ago I noticed that the Official Yearbook of the United Kingdom was entitled Britain. I suggested to the publishers that this was confusing. About two years later it became UK.

    It’s a bit like senior Dublin civil servants referring to their state as Ireland whilst their juniors refer to it as the Republic (of Ireland).

  • “Does this include Monaghan, Cavan & Donegal which have been part of Ulster, as was Louth, since prior to the arrival of St. Patrick Norman/British”

    You may want to re-check that.

    The Kingdom of Bréifne region was part of the kingdom of Connacht up until the time of Queen Elizabeth I. In that time it was shired into the modern counties Cavan and Leitrim, Leitrim remaining a part of the province of Connacht while Cavan became part of Ulster.

    Romantic myths are great and all but they do not belong in the realm of intelligent debate.

  • MacAedha

    Beano
    Romantic myths are great and all but they do not belong in the realm of intelligent debate.
    Who are you trying to kid, mention the community divide in Ireland and ‘intelligent debate’ goes to bed.
    It is an historical fact that Louth was part of the province of Ulster ’til Cromwell decided to include it with Leinster for administrative reasons.

  • Mike

    Northern Ireland is defined in British law as part of the British Islands.

    From the Interpretation Act 1978:

    ———————
    “British Islands” means the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
    ———————

  • MacAedha

    Mike,
    Northern Ireland is defined in British law as part of the British Islands.

    From the Interpretation Act 1978:

    ———————
    “British Islands” means the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
    ———————

    Posted by Mike on Sep 30, 2007 @ 06:14 PM
    This is kind of what we have been arguing about for 850 years. The Irish would like to legislate for ourselves, re-united, soverign Dail without interference form our neighbours. Oh, with an elected head of state.

  • willowfield

    MacAedha

    I suppose this is why it took a democratically elected (and internationally embarrassed) british legislature to … institute a points based housing selection scheme with a government body to oversee its work …

    The introduction of “a points based housing selection scheme” did not require legislation and was not introduced by the UK House of Commons, or the UK government.

    Neither was the “government body to oversee its work” (i.e. the Housing Executive) introduced by the UK legislature: it was introduced by Stormont. (As was the Housing Trust which preceded it.)

    The citizenship to which people born in the six counties are entitled, and the passport which is issued to those choosing it is that of citizens of the United Kingdom, not Britain which is not a state but an amalgam of states within this United Kingdom.

    “Citizens of the UK” are known in law as “British citizens”. And “British” is the universally-accepted adjective relating to the UK.

    However when I read constitutional law N Ireland was not a part of Britain, granted this was before the GFA but the UK Parliament would have to be a bit more specific if they wished to incorporate the six counties into Britain, which is surely what integrationist Unionists are all about.

    How could NI become part of another island, other than by draining the North Channel?

  • Nevin

    Willowfield, there’s a mis-match between political and geographical language. You can demonstrate that Northern Ireland is politically part of Britain and geographically part of Ireland. [cf Ireland the 32-county island v Ireland the 26-county state]

  • Reader

    MacAedha: The Irish would like to legislate for ourselves, re-united, soverign Dail without interference form our neighbours.
    Nothing is stopping you apart from your inability to win over the votes of some Irish voters – the likes of me, for instance. Unless you include unionists as ‘our neighbours’?

  • willowfield

    Willowfield, there’s a mis-match between political and geographical language. You can demonstrate that Northern Ireland is politically part of Britain and geographically part of Ireland. [cf Ireland the 32-county island v Ireland the 26-county state]

    All depends what you mean by “Britain” – if you’re using the term as shorthand for the UK, then, of course. If you mean “Great Britain” (which has only geographical meaning), then, no.

  • Nevin

    That’s more or less part of what I said, Willowfield.

    Just for fun, I rang the PM’s office to ask why Tony was calling himself PM of Great Britain. A posh sounding lady at the other end of the line explained that it was for the benefit of foreigners, for folks who wouldn’t know where the United Kingdom was. He’d been speaking, in French, in Paris, IIRC. Perhaps she and Tony don’t watch the Eurovision Song Contest …

  • miss fitz

    Drowned at the stake, Gonzo?

  • Nevin

    The detail is in the Scotsman link by BG, Miss Fitz.

    You can probably imagine how those of Covenanter stock here felt when James got his comeuppance at the Boyne five years later. James, as Duke of York, had been leader of military operations in Scotland during the ‘Killing Times’.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    Who cares about what size Ulster was, it’s borders have never been set in stone, infact Ulster has historically shifted with it’s people. The same situation applies tody in N.Ireland. If it wasn’t for English legislation dictating that N.Ireland remains N.Ireland, it would have been changed to Ulster decades ago. Those people who are unfortunate enough to live in the Irish Republic and class themselves as Ulstermen are at one with us Ulstermen who live in N.Ireland.

    Ulstermen don’t pander to foreign ideals be they Irish, English or other. We’re Ulstermen plain and simple, with no allegience to anyone but ourselves on this island.

  • MacAedha

    Ulsters my homeland
    Beidh cael agat do amadaun.

  • Gréagóir O’ Frainclín

    Ulster’s my homeland ……is it? including Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan. Wrong use of terminology for someone from Northern Ireland.

    ‘The Glorious revolution provided the Monarch and the people of Britain and Ireland with Religious and civil liberty for all.’

    Is this what you believe? What about the subsequent discrimination and deprivation of all British and Irish papists?

    BTW, Ulster is my homeland too!