IFA provoking political row over football eligibility?

To say the issue of nationality runs to the core of the conflict in the north of Ireland is less a controversial than a factual statement. The sensitive nature of the nationality question is recognised in the complex vocabulary of the Good Friday Agreement, which effectively endorsed the right of six-county residents to proclaim themselves (and be legitimately recognised ) as Irish, British or indeed both.
Given the political minefield that we exist in, it is truly bizarre- if not grossly offensive- that the Irish Football Association seems intent on provoking a fierce row with northern nationalists over the legitimate entitlement of members of that community, as Irish citizens, to represent the Republic of Ireland at international football level.
UPDATE: Steve Staunton has selected Darron Gibson for Wednesday night’s friendly with Denmark.
Since Derry-born teenage footballer, Darren Gibson, opted to represent the Republic of Ireland, alongside many other northern nationalist players, the IFA has lobbied the world football organisation, FIFA, in desperate efforts to thwart Gibson’s ambition to play for his own country. Their aim is simple: to prevent Irishmen from the north from representing their own country and instead leaving them with no option but to play for Northern Ireland.

  • kensei

    “Shut up Cromwell – those facts are meant to be airbrushed.”

    Ah, so because Belfast Celtic had done some bad things in the 20’s, it was right for their team to be attacked (with feeble sanctions applied to Linfield) and then forced to wind up because they couldn’t guarantee safety. In the 1940’s, 20 years after the incident cited. Similar for Derry.

    Mask is slipping there, Realist.

  • Realist

    “Ah, so because Belfast Celtic had done some bad things in the 20’s, it was right for their team to be attacked (with feeble sanctions applied to Linfield) and then forced to wind up because they couldn’t guarantee safety. In the 1940’s, 20 years after the incident cited. Similar for Derry”

    kensei,

    No, it wasn’t right. It was absolutely wrong.

    Perhaps history needs to be looked at more roundly tho, when the verbal stones get chucked about.

    For someone who said only yesterday, you wanted to talk about the present…indeed, your mask did not take long to slip.

  • Mike

    Kensei –

    “No. People born in NI do not qualify through their parents. They qualify by birthright.
    (I know that the new citizenship law in the South states that to be an Irish citizen you have to be born in Ireland to Irish parents, but I don’t think it impacts the overall point here – it
    applies equally to anyone born in the South).

    What applies is the first section – you know, what the letter said.”

    Read what I said again. I wasn’t saying people born in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship through parentage. I was saying that there was an argument that Irish citizenship is used to show eligibility to play for Northern Ireland as well as the Republic of Ireland, and therefore that the birth in/residence in/parents from/grandparents from “the territory of the Association” applies just as it does in the case of British citizenship.

    “It still, however, isn’t comparable. Anyone born in the North is automatically an Irish citizen. They don’t gain it at some later date. They have it from birth. Deal with it.”

    Wrong. Anyone born in Northern Ireland (before 2005, thereafter born to an Irish or British citizen) is ENTITLED to be an Irish citizen. They aren’t automatically Irish citizens. However once they act as an Irish citizen they become one and are treated as having been so from birth. (Unlike British citizenship, which is automatically conferred on everyone born in the UK before 1983, and anyone born in the UK to a British citizen after 1983)

  • GavBelfast

    “Anyone born in the North is automatically an Irish citizen.”

    That is, quite simply, inaccurate.

  • George

    Mike,
    “The parent/grandparent rule, on the other hand, seeks to ensure that a player has a sufficient link to the association that he wishes to represent. Therefore, if the nationality of a player entitles him to represent more than one association, the player must show that he, his parents or his grandparents were born in the territory of the association that he wishes to represent or that he lived in the territory of this association for a least two years.”

    FIFA clearly stated that the Irish situation is covered by Article 15.1 and not the parent/grandparent rule. That is what the letter says.

    As FIFA said:

    “The parent/grandparent rule, therefore, is only relevant for a Northern Irish player who is seeking to play for another British association team.

    To play for the Republic of Ireland, the player must be a national of the Republic of Ireland and, if he previously played for a youth team of Northern Ireland, he must also obtain the approval of the FIFA Players’ Status Committee to carry out this change.”

    It is crystal clear.

    Another poser for you that I’ve used on another forum: Player X is born and brought up in the USA, to American parents and grandparents. He plays for the USA under-16s. He is Jewish, and his family emigrates to Israel and under the Law of Return he along with the rest of his family attains Israeli citizenship. However as a promising young footballer he soon moves to a club in Europe. He’s then selected to play for Israel. Do you think he’d be deemed eligible?

    I assume you are referring to a situation, which I believe also revolves around the issue that, under the Right of Return, the citizenship can be withdrawn from the player if he is no longer resident in the country. Are you giving me all the facts in this particular poser?

    Which specific footballer are you talking about and I will address it?

    Andreas Herren of FIFA said about the Israel situation two months ago:

    “All any country has to do is grant that player full unconditional citizenship and he is eligible to play for that country whether he lives there or not.”

  • Doctor Who

    George

    “I haven’t blamed the IFA for the situation, you simply made that up. I criticised the IFA for not coming clean about FIFA’s position. ”

    Sorry that comment should be directed toward Chris, look at the title of the thread.

  • pete

    kensei,

    “If there was a United team, then everyone would be cheering on the same side and their would be no awkward division. It’s not that hard to follow, is it?”

    You know that’s not true. Many Northern Ireland supporters would be justifiably disappointed, to say the least, if the country of Northern Ireland was deemed no longer eligible to have an international football team to represent it. The concept of having two seperate countries field a united football team is ludicrous; it is just as offensive to unionists as a suggestion to incorporate the Irish football team into a Great Britain team would be to nationalists.

    Don’t try to deny “our wee country” the right to be represented on the international stage – especially when our wee country has a better team than our southern friends.

  • north bucket

    I would suggest that those who are in denial about the situation should contact the IFA for a copy of the ruling issued by the Director of FIFA’s Legal Division Heinz Tannler in October 2006.

    The ruling stated ‘the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland’

    This was again stated as being the position in June 07.

    Nigel Worthington’s attempts to bully the young lad will probably guarantee his playing a part in tonight’s friendly in Denmark and thus make the situation clear to all young professional players from the North who wish to represent their country at international level.

    Perhaps that was the tactic of the IFA in trying to mislead the media over the situation, pretend its still a grey area to try and discourage the growing numbers of players taking the same route as Darron.

    Who knows !!

  • Cromwell

    North Bucket or whichever identity,

    Or just possibly it was the press looking for a story & then our blogger blew it out of all proportion to suit his own purposes.

  • north bucket

    ‘Or just possibly it was the press looking for a story & then our blogger blew it out of all proportion to suit his own purposes.’

    Which would be a strange possibility, when Nigel Worthington said that he looked forward to Darron Gibson playing for northern ireland, eventhough Darron(for the 4th occasion in 12 months)had told Nigel to ‘feck off’ prior to the game against Everton.

  • IJP

    Come on people – suicide prevention, potential negative equity for half the population, higher than average rates of social exclusion, rising violent crime rates and many other things are serious issues.

    This isn’t.

  • Cromwell

    “even though Darron had told Nigel to feck off.”

    Now you are making that last bit up arent you, or was it one of your multiple identities?

    I’m sure our Nigel, being new to the job, simply asked him to play & wee Darron just said no & the aforementioned rag blew it up, & thats about it really.

    Do you want me to type that out 7 times for the rest of your personas?

  • Cromwell

    IJP,

    Yes of course there are more serious issues, but we all need a bit of a diversion, & you do seem to be reading this thread.

  • Cromwell,

    Are you seriously implying that Nigel Worthington knew aboslutely nothing about the background to the Darron Gibson, before he asked him to play…??

    Bull, I’m afraid…

  • Cromwell

    macswiney,

    I’m getting really bored with this now, but if you must,

    Read my post, I’m saying that Nigel Worthington being new to the job possibly thought that being “a new broom” he may have been able to persuade Darron to play for Northern Ireland & rectify whatever reasons there had been for the fall out when he was a junior player, he obviously failed, but you cant blame him for trying, as its in his job description.

    I’m also saying that the story in the paper is a load of crap & therefore this whole thread is based on shaky foundations.

    By writing “bull” you seem pretty sure in your convictions, but I would say bull right back, as I dont think you have any evidence to back them up.

  • pacman

    “2013: GOAL Denmark 0-3 Republic of Ireland
    Darron Gibson’s shot is parried straight into the path of Shane Long. That’s Ireland home and hosed.”

    So that endeth this thread, thankfully.

  • Doctor Who

    Mr. Multiple personalitries and Identidy´d aka North Bucket.

    “Perhaps that was the tactic of the IFA in trying to mislead the media over the situation, pretend its still a grey area to try and discourage the growing numbers of players taking the same route as Darron.”

    It is a grey area soft lad, if it wasn´t then the ROI would have been poaching for years.

    Your “growing number” stands at one senior appearance. Can the FAI constanly afford to get their cheque book out or will they begin to rely on discrimination.

  • Doctor Who

    macswiney

    “Are you seriously implying that Nigel Worthington knew aboslutely nothing about the background to the Darron Gibson, before he asked him to play…??”

    Are you seriously considering the FAI did not know that Darron was born in Northern Ireland and indeed represented Northern Ireland at youth level.

  • north bucket

    Great result for all of us tonight 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    ..And end of the thread.

  • Doctor Who

    Yes Norh Bucket as you are now, we won 3 to 1, while our southern neighbours had a great win againt Denamrk U21´s with a bit of help from Northern Ireland as well.

  • Billy

    Dr Who

    How pathetic you are.

    How you must yearn for the “good old days” when Linfield didn’t play Taigs, Windsor was awash with Linfield/Rangers shirts and banners. celebrating “loyalist” terrorists.

    One could hardly hear oneself think for the wonderful anti-Catholic boos and chants.

    Throw in the odd death threat to your captain because he’s a Catholic and we’re away.

    Let’s face it – you went on and on about Darron Gibson nor being eleigible for the RoI. Well, he played tonight and I haven’t heard anything from FIFA.

    Of course, the useless IFA could always complain and FIFA will send them the same reply they did before.

    Of course, now that Darron has paved the way, there is now no obstacle to any player in NI declaring for the Republic if he wishes. Hopefully, we will see many more.

    I think a lot of players would rather play in front of the crowded 75,000 new Lansdowne Road stand than in front of 20,000 (if you’re lucky) at the Maze.

  • kensei

    “For someone who said only yesterday, you wanted to talk about the present…indeed, your mask did not take long to slip.”

    The past isn’t the issue – your attitude is. And that is very much in the present.

  • Doctor Who

    Billy

    “One could hardly hear oneself think for the wonderful anti-Catholic boos and chants. ”

    Yawn!!!!Yawn!!! you are a boring little man, I am just wondering does anyone believe you where a regular Windsor visitor. And really does anyone really think you are anything more than a confused little sectarian bigot.

    I don´t expect anyone will see you at landsdowne, Croke, Windsor or the Maze for that matter. So your opinion is really worthless.

  • Billy

    Dr Who

    I’m a “boring little man” am I?

    Coming from you that’s a joke.

    The shite coming from you ad nauseum that Darron Gibson isn’t eligible for the RoI despite George and others proving you wrong. “Yawn!!!!Yawn!!!”

    Now that Darron has a FULL Cap for the RoI, I guess you’re expecting the sky to fall in on the FAI – well I (and all intelligent people) know that you’ll have a very long wait.

    I suspect that even you are now beginning to realise that you were talking shite. So now you have resorted to truly pitiful little jibes such as “with a bit of help from Northern Ireland as well”.

    You really are a sore loser aren’t you?

    Amazingly, you were 1/4 right about 1 thing which is a big improvement for you.

    I’ll certainly never set foot in Windsor again after all the anti-Catholic, pro-UDA/UVF shite that I heard in there in support of your “cross-community” team.

    However, I will go to the Maze to watch Rugby and look forward to many visits to the excellent stadiums at Croke and Lansdowne.

  • Doctor Who

    But Billy you won´t, now pick your toys up and put them back in the pram. Theres a good boy.

  • Cromwell

    Billy,

    “How you must yearn for the good old when Linfield didnt play taigs, Windsor was awash with Linfield/Rangers shirts & banners celebrating loyalist terrorists”

    Sounds like theres only one person verbally masturbating over the “old Windsor” to me Billy.

  • Pounder

    Has “Billy” ever posted in a thread that didn’t revolve arround bashing Northern Ireland for sectarianism?

  • Billy

    Pounder

    Interesting that you single me out?

    I have posted on numerous threads on slugger going back years.

    If you care to check, you will find 2 consistent themes.

    I have ALWAYS condemned ALL VIOLENCE from whatever source.

    I have never been a Sinn Fein member, supporter or voter.

    Just read some of the posts of people who laughably call me a bigot.

    The best examples are the whataboutery king that is Observer and the arch apologist for “loyalist” terrorists – PeaceandJustice (even his name is hypocritical).

    Equally funny is the denial from Dr Who, Willowfield and others that Windsor was ever a cold house for Catholics.

    Are you joing with them to deny that Linfield didn’t sign Catholics for many years?

    Do you deny that for decades NI internationals at Windsor were full of people in Linfield/Rangers shirts and there was widespread anti-Catholic chants and booing of Catholic players.

    I think BBC videos would clearly show that this behaviour was commonplace – especially on the old Kop.

    I don’t pretend to be omniscient but I’m not stupid enough to deny something that can clearly be backed up by evidence.

    I have on many occasions accepted that the IFA have made a big effort to remove sectarianism from NI football. My dispute is about why it took them so long and what motivated them – Neil Lennon?

    As I am in the legal profession, I also deal in FACTS. The number of NI fans who come on here and claim that they won an award for being the so-called “best fans in Europe” – this is a LIE – fair play to the GAWA for winning an award but IT WAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING THE SO-CALLED “BEST FANS IN EUROPE” AND ANYONE CLAIMING OTHERWISE IS A LIAR.

    If people like you want to call me a bigot, I don’t care.

    At least, I’m not stupid. People like Dr Who, Willowfield etc think they can deny the anti-Catholic sectarianism that blighted NI football for decades. They also try to portray that everything is perfect now.

    Like I say, I’m not a bigot. I’m just not prepared to let people insult my intelligence and think they can re-write history without anyone pointing out their lies.

    I will never support NI but, if someone from a Nationalist background wants to play for NI, that’s their choice – I respect that and good luck to them.

    Dr Who wants to deny Nationalists in NI their right to play for the RoI even though they are legally entitled to do so. He wants to force them to either play for NI or no-one.

    Yet, apparently I’m a bigot and he’s not. You couldn’t make it up.

    Good luck at the Maze.

  • willowfield

    Billy

    Equally funny is the denial from Dr Who, Willowfield and others that Windsor was ever a cold house for Catholics.

    Are you joing with them to deny that Linfield didn’t sign Catholics for many years?

    At least, I’m not stupid. People like Dr Who, Willowfield etc think they can deny the anti-Catholic sectarianism that blighted NI football for decades. They also try to portray that everything is perfect now.

    Please IMMEDIATELY retract the above statements in relation to me. I have never made claims such as you assert. It is sheer hypocrisy for you to describe others as liars while posting lies such as those above.

    I have on many occasions accepted that the IFA have made a big effort to remove sectarianism from NI football. My dispute is about why it took them so long and what motivated them – Neil Lennon?

    Given that the efforts began before the Neil Lennon incident, clearly Neil Lennon was not the motivation. This has been pointed out to you before, but clearly – despite your assertions to the contrary – you choose not to remember FACTS that you consider to be inconvenient to your prejudices.

  • john

    Billy,
    the IFA and the NI football team hurt themselves by not having a completely neutral atmosphere at home/away games. They will continue to lose good players (Gibson appears he may be the real deal). The RoI team belongs to eastern/southern/northern/western/ex-pat irish people equally. That some people on here don’t get that is their problem. And ultimately their loss too. Their denials that there is/has been a problem will mean that the situation that drives away young talent will continue. Basically they won’t solve the problem until they admit it exists. And that talent strengthens the RoI squad so I’m quite happy that some contributors on here continue to delude themselves that they don’t need to change the symbolism surrounding NI games. The IFA has to earn the support of irish football supporters in Derry and West Belfast (etc). On past behaviour it has no right to expect that support!

  • Billy

    Willowfield

    Those may not be your exact words but they are clear implications of statements that you have made.

    Before you protest, you gave me exactly the same response only last week. It’s quite annoying when people comment on what they think you implied rather than what you actually said isn’t it?

    Also, on the issue of retraction, last week you called me and I quote ” a dirty liar”.

    I really don’t like getting involved in personal insults and, in the vast majority of cases, only do so in response to an attack on me.

    But if you think that I’m retracting anything after you commented on something you think I implied and DIDN’T ACTUALLY SAY and called me ” a dirty liar”, you’ve got another think coming.

    What goes around comes around.

    If you can’t take these tactics being used on you, you shouldn’t use them on other people.

  • willowfield

    Billy

    Those may not be your exact words but they are clear implications of statements that you have made.

    More lies. I have never implied what you allege. Post up these statements if you are attempting to back up your absurd claims.

    Also, on the issue of retraction, last week you called me and I quote “ a dirty liar”.

    And? If you tell malicious lies, Billy, don’t expect to get away with it. You never retracted those lies either. These are the lies that you told on the Night in November thread.

    1. You stated that the IFA only started to make strides in tackling sectarianism “because the publicity they got from the Neil Lennon death threat forced them to do so” – that was a lie.

    2. You stated that “In a match prior to the death threat, Neil Lennon had endured a torrid 90 minutes where his every touch was booed by the majority of NI fans. McIlroy more or less glossed over it and the IFA said nothing”. That was a lie.

    Now, you might claim that these are not lies – that you genuinely believed what you said was true – but we know that’s not the case as you have made these statements in the past and their inaccuracy has been pointed out to you. Yet you repeat them.

    But if you think that I’m retracting anything after you commented on something you think I implied and DIDN’T ACTUALLY SAY and called me “ a dirty liar”, you’ve got another think coming.

    Well, I didn’t call you a dirty liar because of “something I think you implied and didn’t actually say”: I called you a liar on statements you made and which are published on this web site. These are cited above. Wouldn’t it be better to retract both those lies and the ones you told on this thread? You clearly have no integrity. Shame on you.

    You’ve been exposed as a liar, Billy. And – worse than that – one who is not even prepared to put his hands up and admit it when he gets found out.

  • circles

    Mick,
    surely there should be a red card shown against Willowfield for the personal abuse he is using in his posts. (i.e. the charming term ‘dirty liar’)-enough is enough.

  • willowfield

    Circles wants a person who exposes lies to be banned, but for the liar to remain. Strange values.

    If someone tells lies, he or she is a liar. If it’s the adjective “dirty” to which you object, then I will retract it (from a post made two weeks ago), but that doesn’t alter the essential point that Billy told lies, about which you seem entirely unconcerned. Why?

  • anthony

    Willowfield,
    essentially, the spohistication of your your argument boils down to a ‘my da’s bigger than your da’ line.
    Its nice and sunny outside, why don’t you go out for a wee walk and cool your jets, there’s a good lad.

  • Pounder

    I’ve seen others (myself included) call others worse. Can you perhaps quote the exact text where Willow called Billy a “Dirty Liar”?

    Billy

    I have no doubt you really believe what you say but jesus man that Lennon shit and the sectarianism is way in the past. You have to move on. Look at the positive. The fans have moved on leaps and bounds. A former hurling player captained the side. Instead of focusing on the negative look at the positive. Last night there where 11 Irishmen playing in Green at Windsor Park plus subs, they came from different areas different backgrounds and they worked togeather and played their hearts out. Surely thats a good thing?

  • Cromwell

    Billy,

    “I will never support NI”

    Did you not state on another thread that you used to go to Windsor Park regularly?
    Are your pants on fire again?

    John,

    Top marks for completely missing the point.

    “the IFA has to earn the support of irish football supporters in Derry & West Belfast (etc), on past behaviour it has no right to expect that support.”

    The aforementioned people would deny Northern Irelands right to exist so we can hardly expect them to support its football team John, can we?
    They, like Billy & yourself are just arch-begrudgers & frankly we dont need or want them.

  • john

    That’s right Cromwell. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the atmosphere or symbolism at NI games. Please, please, please don’t change anthing.

  • anthony

    ‘Last night there where 11 Irishmen playing in Green at Windsor Park plus subs, they came from different areas different backgrounds’

    Yeah, the goalie came from that well-known part of Our Wee Pravince called err…Germany. Sadly Norway born, Tony Capaldi was unavaiable.

  • jpeters

    im agreeing with pounder on the attitude to take towards the NI team fair play to them, we all have to move on. Nationalists look to the future and give them the benefit of the doubt, Unionists stop this infantile constitutional analysis and interpretations of FIFA rules, let the lads play were they are comfortable, there are two Ireland teams as oft stated does it matter at the end of the day who they play for?

  • Cromwell

    John,

    No problem mucker, I’ve no intentions of it, ever been to Windsor John?
    Nah, didnt think so!

  • anthony

    I have Cromwell-Every occasion was confirmation that it is a sectarian cess-pit. But that’s all changed now-totally, irrefutably. irredeemably.
    By the way, did you participate in the very loud, No Surrender’ chants last night?

  • Briso

    Posted by Cromwell on Aug 23, 2007 @ 01:26 PM
    >The aforementioned people would deny Northern
    >Irelands right to exist so we can hardly expect
    >them to support its football team John, can we?

    Correct, that’s how I feel. I wish them all the best and I would have no problem going to Windsor to watch them now, but they could never be my team in my heart as they are a partitionist team. The flip-side of that is that I consider it perfectly reasonable and acceptable to play GSTQ and fly the Union Jack at these matches. The team IS British, in its very essence. Why bother changing all that? The efforts to make it non-sectarian are a different matter and progress has been made, no question. By the way, I consider an Irish Nationalist playing for NI to be illogical (not ‘wrong’) but that’s my opinion and for those Nationalist players who play for NI, that’s their business and none of mine. Good luck to them and I hope they have great success.

    >They, like Billy & yourself are just arch-
    >begrudgers & frankly we dont need or want them.

    I don’t see how I am a begrudger based on the fact I would like to see the removal of the border and a United Ireland.

    Finally, two points independent of this discussion. One, it is not a crime to wear a Linfield shirt to a football match, especially one at Windsor Park. Two, David Healy is world class and I’m glad he’s finally got a chance to show it at club level.

  • Pounder

    ’Last night there where 11 Irishmen playing in Green at Windsor Park plus subs, they came from different areas different backgrounds’

    Yeah, the goalie came from that well-known part of Our Wee Pravince called err…Germany. Sadly Norway born, Tony Capaldi was unavaiable.

    Posted by anthony on Aug 23, 2007 @ 01:38 PM

    A supporter of the Republic hardly wants to bring that up given the reign of Jack Charlton, see I can bring up the past too.

  • Billy

    Pounder

    Willowfield wrote in a post to me on August 9th and I quote “You’re a Dirty Liar”.

    I’m hardly likely to break down in tears – it says more about the weakness of someone’s argument that they resort to this sort of abuse.

    I agree with a lot of your post.

    Yes, I agree that it’s a good thing. I have said before that the IFA + GAWA have made great strides in recent years which is very welcome.

    I guess I’ll never agree with Willowfield and others about when + why the IFA took action but, as you say, it’s all in the past. We are where we are.

    It’s pretty obvious that I’ll never support NI and I think the dye is cast for most Catholics of my generation who witnessed the “bad old days” at Windsor.

    For what it’s worth, I think more Catholics will always support the RoI. However, the IFA could give their football for all campaign much more chance of getting younger Catholic supporters if they adopted a neutral anthem.

    If Scotland + Wales can do it, I don’t see why NI can’t – but that’s just my opinion.

    Like I said, I fully accept and respect the right of anyone born in NI from either community to choose to play for NI.

    For the life of me, I don’t understand why some NI “fans” on this site can’t reciprocate. Why are they so obessed with trying to deny NI people their right to declare for the RoI. Why try to force someone to play for a team they have no loyalty to? Frankly, I wouldn’t want anyone in the RoI team who didn’t want to play for us.

    Anway, I think this subject has been done to death. There are some people who will never agree and a fair amount of personal abuse flying around. Time to take a break from rehashing the same old arguments.

    All the best

  • anthony

    ‘A supporter of the Republic hardly wants to bring that up given the reign of Jack Charlton, see I can bring up the past too’

    but this is the present, Pounder.

  • Cromwell

    Yes Anthony,

    We believe you, it was so sectarian, you…. kept….. going…. back……….!

    No I didnt participate, but how loud was it?

    How loud was your tv turned up?

    Did you watch it?

    Did you watch it just to be offended?

    Is your tv stuck on one channel?

    Did you really watch it?

    Why did you watch it, if you dont support Northern Ireland?

    Can you honestly say you watched it?

    Did you just watch the start of it so that you could come on here & complain about something?

  • john

    Cromwell, cheers. that’s very good of you. It warms the cockles of my heart every time i watch on TV and hear GSTQ followed by ‘No Surrender’. You’re right btw, i’ve never been to Windsor. Even when i lived just off the Lisburn road i seemed to miss out on that particular opportunity. I never thought i’d be welcome to be honest, though obviously i’m wrong. In fact, worse, i must be a sectarian b1got for even feeling that i might not be welcome there. Anyway, and i sincerely mean this, long may the Union flag fly at windsor park. I genuinely do not wish to deny you your British NI team. I just wish to support RoI (my team).

  • nmc

    Are people not allowed to watch International qualifiers of teams other than the one that represents your country? Maybe some people would have watched it to see some good football.

    It would appear that we cafflicks only watch an NI game to gather ammunition for Slugger. Neatly detracting from the point that the sectarian chanting did happen.

    “Yes there was sectarianism but you were only watching the match so you could see sectarianism”

    Two points – you accept that the sectarian chanting was happening have you a comment on that? Or will you simply attack another poster for pointing out that it happened.

    And do you not think it speaks volumes that you think Anthtony sat through a match that he didn’t want to see (according to yourself) just so that he could see some sectarianism – and lo and behold sectarianism happens. Bottom line, if you want to see some sectarianism a NI match is the place to go.

  • Cromwell

    Briso,

    The argument between you & I is pretty circuitous, as, no doubt, I’m begrudging you your views on the border.
    I’m probably a bit guilty of the tar-brush on this as far as you are concerned.

    Your point on nationalists playing for Northern Ireland is well made, how politically, could you be an Irish Nationalist by definition & play for NI?
    But then I’ve always thought that one of the problems in this be-knighted place was not the labels we place on ourselves but the labels other people place on us.

    You dont really see any Linfield ( or Rangers, or any other Irish League) shirts at NI games anymore & for all the cant on here I dont remember many from years ago either.

  • Cromwell

    nmc,

    Know Anthony personally do you? As you seem to surmise a lot about him considering he hasnt answered any questions yet.

    Please define “sectarian chanting”, explaining where I accepted it happened.

    John,

    I have no problem whatsoever with you supporting RoI, thats your right & you are quite welcome to it.

  • Pounder

    I read the OP at the top of the page, it said that Darren had stopped playing for NI U16’s due to a row about his trial with Man United. Does anyone know the details on this fall out?

    As I said before Darren made his choice and fair play to him. He is a tallented player. But NI is not without a fair number of tallented players. It’s senseless to force the guy to play for a team he doesn’t want to, it’d only harm the player and them team.

    As for the “Dirty Liar” part I wasn’t starting anything or even jumping in I was curious.

  • Briso


    Briso,

    The argument between you & I is pretty circuitous, as, no doubt, I’m begrudging you your views on the border.
    I’m probably a bit guilty of the tar-brush on this as far as you are concerned.

    Well, not even that, you’re quite entitled to battle against me on the political question, no problem. Furthermore, I have no problem with what was signed up to in the GFA. It’s just that with the football team, it’s not about what structures you’ve agreed to support and work for to the best of your ability, it’s about who you are. That’s where all the heat comes from on these football threads. When some NI supporters have to think twice about whether they could support an all-Ireland football team in the absence of NI, that’s the same as me, except in reverse. Remember, I’m not talking about overthrowing the state!! I just want to support the non-partitionist team, because that’s who I am. The reason this is sensitive (to the bemusement of people like IJP) is that I can keep out of nasty arguments, be as liberal in terms of respect for the choices of other people as it is possible to be, but because of who I AM, because I’m Irish and not British, anti the partition of this island, I’m somehow guilty of thought crime!!!


    Your point on nationalists playing for Northern Ireland is well made, how politically, could you be an Irish Nationalist by definition & play for NI?
    But then I’ve always thought that one of the problems in this be-knighted place was not the labels we place on ourselves but the labels other people place on us.

    Well, I hope you can see that I take no-one’s labels but my own and I don’t even like articulating them.


    You dont really see any Linfield ( or Rangers, or any other Irish League) shirts at NI games anymore & for all the cant on here I dont remember many from years ago either.

    Posted by Cromwell on Aug 23, 2007 @ 02:46 PM

    Well, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t get a coronary if I saw one in Windsor Park!!!! It is, after all, a free ‘country’. 😉

  • anthony

    ‘We believe you, it was so sectarian, you…. kept….. going…. back……….! ‘

    Hi Cromwell-struck a bit of an old raw nerve, there-good, the truth does hurt as you can now testify.
    I’ve been to Windsor twice to see NI play Ireland-1-1 and 4-0 to Ireland. Also seen NI play Wales and Scotland. The sectarian vitriol against Ireland was entirely predictable whilst that on display in the other games was a bit more unexpected.
    You complain about nationalists not watching NI and then when we do (even on the telly) we are lambasted for our effrontery in doing so-Do you not want us ‘about the place’at all?

    As to questioning why I watched the game, why should I have to justify myself to you? I don’t support Celtic, Rangers or Jossy’s Giants but I have caught a bit of them all on the telly now and again. Your posts strongly suggest that you advocate a form of sporting apartheid against nationalists and nicely proves the point that you are representative of those that have successfully divided the game in Ireland.

  • nmc

    Cromwell:

    No I didnt participate, but how loud was it?

    I assumed you were talking about participating in the chanting of No Surrender, am I wrong?

    Definition of sectarianism from google:

    narrow-minded adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination

    No Surrender chants would fall into this category, due to their abvious association with Loyalism.

  • Cromwell

    Briso,

    I was pretty much agreeing with you on most of your points.

    nmc,

    So does some people in the ground shouting “no surrender” make everyone there sectarian, & by an individual shouting “no surrender” makes that individual sectarian in what fashion? Can he/she be defined as sectarian for shouting “no surrender” by itself?
    What does ” no surrender” by itself actually mean?
    If it means “no surrender to the IRA” does that actually define someone as sectarian?
    Is it sectarian to define Northern Ireland fans as sectarian simply because some of them shout a slogan once during a football match?

  • Cromwell

    Anthony,

    Didnt strike a raw nerve at all, my tongue was wedged firmly in my cheek!

    Was there never any sectarian vitriol directed at Northern Ireland fans by angelic RoI fans?

    As for this being directed at Wales & Scotland I’ll have to take your word for it, as even though I was at all the aforementioned games, I dont recall any of it, & I’m not Ronald Reagan!

    I dont make any complaints about nationalists watching NI, do what you like, it makes absolutely no difference to me.

  • john

    Cromwell, as long as NI is seen as a loyalist/unionist team then member of the other community here (like Darron Gibson et al) will not want to support/play for NI. If in the future NI becomes a truely neutral team that actually represents both communities here then it will get support of both communities and the issue of players wanting to play for RoI will disappear. this seems obvious to me.

  • nmc

    So does some people in the ground shouting “no surrender” make everyone there sectarian,

    No.

    & by an individual shouting “no surrender” makes that individual sectarian in what fashion?

    Because it is a slogan of Loyalism, as such it pertains to that specific group. Another definition of sectarianism from dictionary.com: Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.

    Can he/she be defined as sectarian for shouting “no surrender” by itself?

    Yes, see above.

    What does “ no surrender” by itself actually mean?

    It is a slogan of Loyalism, I imagine it means nothing other than that to the people who shout it.

    If it means “no surrender to the IRA” does that actually define someone as sectarian?

    Again it is a slogan of Loyalism, and falls into the category set out in dictionary.com, Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.

    Is it sectarian to define Northern Ireland fans as sectarian simply because some of them shout a slogan once during a football match?

    I am not defining all fans as sectarian. I am saying that there was sectarian chanting. I know many NI fans, mostly non-sectarian people, one of them’s Jewish (he couldn’t give a toss about our wee conflict), and I wouldn’t like to tar all the fans with the same brush. But there is a significant minority, and accepting that is the case would be a good step, instead of trying to pretend that everything’s rosy in the garden. It ain’t.

    Finally, I would say that the attempts to turn the NI team into something that could be supported by nationalists haven’t been completely ignored, many people myself included are starting to come around.

    However it wasn’t so many years ago I was getting sectarian abuse while living on Melrose Street for wearing a ROI top, time heals all wounds they say – then give it some time. You can’t expect the IFA to hold a press conference saying “no more sectarianism at Windsor” and the following day every nationalist in the North saying ah well that’s ok then let’s jump behind NI.

  • anthony

    ‘I dont make any complaints about nationalists watching NI, do what you like, it makes absolutely no difference to me.’

    Thanks for that climbdown, Cromwell.

    To be clear, there was no sectarian abuse directed at Wales and Scotland fans but rather against the entire membership of the Ctholic faith who were largely in absentia in the ground, apart from my good self. Enjoyed your squirming around the meaning of the ‘No Surrender’ chants. In your world of course this chant isn’t sectarian. Rather its a plea from all the ‘Bankers’ on the Kop to watching homeowners not to cash in your endownment policy just yet.

  • Briso

    Posted by john on Aug 23, 2007 @ 04:23 PM
    If in the future NI becomes a truely neutral team that actually represents both communities here then it will get support of both communities and the issue of players wanting to play for RoI will disappear. this seems obvious to me.

    Not to me. There will always be Nationalists who consider it illogical to play for NI. NI fans can certainly try to minimise their numbers by making the place welcoming. If it means giving up GSTQ and the Union Jack, well they may find some understandable resistance within their own ranks…

  • Cromwell

    Anthony,

    Aye dead on!

    There was no climbdown. If you can find anywhere that I complained about nationalists supporting RoI be my guest.(you wont)
    I’m complaining about some nationalists constantly gurning about NI.
    & thats a pretty sh*te analogy Anthony, I note in an earlier post you ask Pounder to live in the present & yet you complain about NI fans based on allegations of games you went to a very, very long time ago.
    The allegations re;Scotland & Wales are simply lies.
    Maybe you could give me your views on RoI fans & the constant abuse meted out to Rangers & former Rangers players & also the opprobrium directed at Israel players & fans when they last played.
    You keep bowlin’ them & I’ll keep hittin them for six big lad.

    nmc,

    You & I agree then, some people are sectarian, NI fans are no worse than anyone else.
    Thanks.

  • roger

    ‘You & I agree then, some people are sectarian, NI fans are no worse than anyone else.’

    I can’t think of another european team that starts its games with offensive and sectarian chants.

  • Realist

    northbucket/ewan/peterpunt/rosettared/ewan/whitey/roger/tom,

    Medication time!

  • anthony

    1) I was at games against Wales and Scotland games when songs such as the Billy Boys, UDA and UVF chants were sung.-Fact
    If you want to stick to the present, fine. What about last night and the crescendo of No Surrender Chants that reverberated around the ground?-Fact
    As for your climbdown, you complained about me, as a nationalist, having the temerity to even watch the game on TV, never mind going along in person-Fact.

    As for your references to hitting sixes, I would sugest that you have been too busy concentrating on your googlies playing full tosses in a desperate attempt to avoid ‘no balls’ being called against you.

  • Realist

    Do you not have Sky anthony?

  • anthony

    You’re half-way to becoming a wit..Stewarty

  • Realist

    And that’s not very clever anthony.

  • Cahal

    John
    “Cromwell, as long as NI is seen as a loyalist/unionist team then member of the other community here (like Darron Gibson et al) will not want to support/play for NI. If in the future NI becomes a truely neutral team that actually represents both communities here then it will get support of both communities and the issue of players wanting to play for RoI will disappear. this seems obvious to me.”

    I disagree completely. I could never imagine supporting the IFA team. It is a partitionist team representing a gerrymandered statelet. Anything that gives credence to idea of seperating Irishmen by an illegitimate border should be spurned.

  • willowfield

    Anthony

    essentially, the spohistication of your your argument boils down to a ‘my da’s bigger than your da’ line.

    It doesn’t – and, in any case, simply stating facts is not actually an argument.

    Billy

    I see you have declined yet again to retract your dishonest statements. Why is this? Are you standing over them?

    1. You said that I denied “that Windsor was ever a cold house for Catholics”. That was a lie.

    2. You said that I denied “that Linfield didn’t sign Catholics for many years”. That was a lie.

    3. You said that I deny that “anti-Catholic sectarianism blighted NI football for decades”. That was a lie.

    When challenged, you said that “Those may not be your exact words but they are clear implications of statements that you have made”. I then challenged you to post up the statements that you claim back up your claim that I implied any of the above three statements. You declined. Why?

    If you had any personal integrity, unless you can back up these allegations, you would retract them.

    Also in response to my challenge of these lies, you referred to a previous occasion when I had called you a liar. Yet – ironically – on that occasion you had, indeed, also told lies.

    4.. You stated that the IFA only started to make strides in tackling sectarianism “because the publicity they got from the Neil Lennon death threat forced them to do so”. Do you now accept that this is untrue?

    5. You stated that “In a match prior to the death threat, Neil Lennon had endured a torrid 90 minutes where his every touch was booed by the majority of NI fans. McIlroy more or less glossed over it and the IFA said nothing”. Do you now accept that this is untrue?

  • willowfield

    Cahal

    I could never imagine supporting the IFA team. It is a partitionist team representing a gerrymandered statelet. Anything that gives credence to idea of seperating Irishmen by an illegitimate border should be spurned.

    Obviously you don’t support the Republic either, then?

  • harry

    Worthington has been shown to be a man of little moral fibre over the Gibson affair.

    Gibson, interviewed by the Derry journal today said “Nigel Worthington did speak to me about coming back to Northern Ireland in the summer but I told him I was happy where I was.”

    So what the hell was Worthington doing running to the press last weekend saying he was looking forward to Gibson playing for Northern Ireland, when he had been given a straight answer. No.

    Pinocchio’s nose looked a little longer last night at Windsor Park !!

  • Bran Mak Morn

    I truely despair at reading some of these posts. I find it difficult to believe that they are ill-informed – true malice just seems to seep through many of them. There must be nothing that stirs up more hatred in the extremeist rump of nationalism than the Northern Ireland football team. Some of the crap people have posted here, including that by some who claim to have been at matches is unbelievable. OK, we get the point – you support the 26 county side – fair enough. I dont care and some of you to be frank appear to be no loss. Do yourselves a favour and move on all the same. You don’t have to hate one team and its fans to support the other.

  • Bran Mak Mon.

    A strange (and hypocritical post).

    Your entire post critcises the attitude of Nationalists here but you make no mention of the (at times) hate-filled venom shown by some posters towards Nationalists who support or follow the Republic of Ireland team.

    You claim to be “filled with despair” yet you then went on to display the same kind of vitriol that you claim to “despair ” over. A one-sided attack. Pot, kettle, black…

  • Bran Mak Morn

    macswiney – absolute bullshit and you know it. Note my use of the term “extremeist rump”. Does that not suggest to you that I am not referring to all nationalists in my statement? Would you like to quote my “vitriol”? For the record, I have no thoughts one way or the other towards the ROI team. They are an irrelevance to me as they are not in our qualifying group. I have nothing against them and no fond feelings for them. If people here have levelled sectarian abuse at the ROI team or fans that is wrong. I didn’t mention it because I didn’t notice it in the immense size of this thread. I think you will agree that the sectarian bile directed towards the Northern Ireland end of things is just a wee bit more prevelant here.

    Now show me the hypocracy in what I have posted here!

  • willowfield

    That should be “hypocrisy”.

  • north bucket

    willow

    Are you using multiple identities, again ??

  • willowfield

    Never having used “multiple identities” before, it wouldn’t be possible for me to do so again.