From one extreme to the other…


ALTHOUGH some gay people think Jesus was a fag, some Christians think that God hates fags. Indeed, this particular group – the most hated family in America – thinks God hates Ireland, as it treats gay people like anyone else. That’s a lot of hate in one blog entry. No wonder the haters are hating the thought of coming to Dublin.

  • Cruimh

    Dear Lord – gobsmacked at that blog.

  • Pete Baker

    Don’t give them any more publicity than they’ve already managed to achieve.

    God hates Ireland, indeed..

    *sheesh*

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pete

    The Irish News carried it yesterday morning. Should’ve credited it.

    Firebran US preacher blasts Ireland’s equality

    By John Manley

    A controversial American preacher famed for his outspoken views on homosexuality has launched a website lambasting Ireland for its equality laws.

    The anti-gay tirade is featured on godhatesireland.com – the latest platform of the Rev Fred Phelps, head of the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas.

    The firebrand preacher, who earlier this year featured in a BBC documentary made by Louis Theroux, claims Ireland is now “the Emerald Isle of the sodomite damned” after the Dublin government adopted EU legislation which outlaws discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.

    The website claims the laws are a “draconian, antichristic cup of Satan’s slimy vomit straight from the maw of hell”.

    Gay rights campaigner and Irish senator David Norris comes in for particular criticism on the website.

    Mr Phelps also claims he has been invited to Ireland by University College Dublin’s Literary and Historical Society to speak next February on the subject of gay adoption.

    Despite branding some of the society’s members “leaders in the Irish homosexual community” who he alleges are responsible for decriminalising sodomy in Ireland, the anti-gay preacher says he will accept the invitation.

    However, Mr Phelps believes the invitation is just a ruse and that he will be arrested in Ireland and charged with inciting hatred. He has therefore asked the university society to provide written guarantees from the taoiseach and President Mary McAleese that he will not be prosecuted.

    “They know exactly what I will say on the subject of gay adoption and they know that what I will say from the bible about sodomites will land me in an Irish jail for two and maybe 10 years,” he writes on the website.

    Nobody from UCD’s Literary and Historical Society was available for comment yesterday.

    Mr Phelps’s other websites include godhatesfags.com and godhatessweden.com, which attack the US and Swedish governments for their liberal attitude to homosexuality.

    Mr Phelps’s church followers, the majority of whom are members of his extended family, regularly stage pickets at military funerals, gay pride gatherings, and political gatherings, arguing it is their sacred duty to warn others of God’s anger.

    Mr Phelps believes the 9/11 attacks were a form of divine retribution and he refers to the US as a “sodomite nation of flag-worshipping idolators”.

    In his home country, the controversial preacher is protected by the US Constitution’s First Amendment, which permits freedom of expression.

    Bizarre people!

  • Donnacha

    And he couldn’t even get the tricolour the right way around on the GodhatesIreland.com logo. Still, with “Christian” advocates like him, the atheism/theism debate looks to be pretty well sewn up….

  • Pete Baker

    I’m wondering why you think that adds to the discussion, Gonzo.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pete

    Because a lot of the time people can’t be arsed clicking on every link in a blog entry, and the Irish News story kinda sums the story up in a nutshell.

  • Pete Baker

    Ah.. so your response wasn’t actually addressed to me, then..

    [off snark]

    On topic.

    Why should I care what a homophobic bunch of super-naturalists think?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Pete

    I didn’t think you would care, to be honest, but it’s the flip side of the coin to the thread on the Gay Pride placard, which I closed and redirected to this one.

  • Cruimh

    So it’s not an attempt to get George apoplectic Gonzo ? 😉

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Cruimh

    Heh!

    No, I just wanted to see if those who defended free speech/expression in the last thread could defend the right to attack homosexuality on this one. Or whether the Christians on the last thread thought this particular church was right. Or whether there would be some smart-ass comments about my motives(!)…

    You get the drift… What’s the point of a blog that doesn’t provoke debate?

  • Pete Baker

    Assuming that you don’t care..

    “which I closed and redirected to this one”

    For example…

    “If they don’t change their minds then there are other options.”

  • Cruimh

    “You get the drift… What’s the point of a blog that doesn’t provoke debate? ”

    Indeed – the Phelps are mind-blowingly awful – I saw a documentary about them a few weeks ago.
    Best bit was when the moralising matriarch introduced her nephew – and had to admit that he was in fact her illegitimate son. Things got a mite heated – especially when the reporter asked her if it meant she was going to Hell 🙂

    The girls are pretty though – is Phelps a Ceredigion name Dewi ?

  • Dawkins

    Gonzo,

    Free speech is not the same thing as incitement to hatred. That’s why we have laws against it.

    Anyhow it’s immaterial. Mr Phelps will be laughed at. Ireland ain’t the Bible Belt.

  • Fred Phaisley

    The Irish Trivolour is deliberately the wrong way round as an insult. If you tracked these people, you would see they do it all the time with the Stars and Stripes. The fact that htey were dancing on the sacred Irish flag should have been an indicator but no, too qwuick to go into print to defend sodomites as progressives.
    The Phelps arem ostly very successful lawyers btw. Just like TDs.
    Fred Phelps got it right with the L&H trying to entrap him but wrong with the fag enablers who were TCD not UCD.
    For the goons who are using Phelps to attack Christianity, Jerry Falwell and his ilk are on record as saying Phelps is a nut case.
    Phelps opposes the Iraq war, something Adams’ mate King doesn ot.
    Belfast Gonzo, please think a minute before oyur next feel good tirade. People like you are Phelps enablers.

  • Sam Spud

    This is old news. Will Crawley’s blog carried the entire story last week and his Sunday morning programme covered it this past weekend. Nice of the Irish News to listen in and then not credit the show with the story! The programme had a guest journalist who had met Phelps and regard him as simply insane. I hadn’t realised that Phelps is a Democrat and has even stood for office in his town and state.

  • Donnacha

    “The Irish Trivolour is deliberately the wrong way round as an insult.”

    Oh. Well that cut me to the quick.

    “but no, too qwuick to go into print to defend sodomites as progressives.”

    Not necessarily progressives, just humans, with as much right not to be demonised and insulted as anyone else.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Bah, missed on Crawley’s blog, which is quite good I have to say.

  • Cruimh

    Still, it’s an improvement on Riverdance!

    Oíche mhaith 🙂

  • heck

    with those views phelps will be in line for first minister of Norn Iron.

  • Aaron D

    Yeah, they came and protested outside my church. The rector just told us all to exit through the doors on the opposite side of the church as they were looking for confrontations and we weren’t going to go along with their plan.

  • gerry enabler

    Why don’t the Provos send some goons to sort these ones out for insulting our flag? But then the Provos are fag enablers. Witness McGuinness having Free Derry corner pinkified. “The people’s flag is palest pink…”
    I wonder how many other Provos are fag enablers. Phelps has them well marked. The Troubles were all aobut getting a boner.

  • protorious

    What confuses me about this is why did UCD invite the famously insane/reculisve Pastor Phelps to attend their discussion on Gay adoption?

    Phelps views are considered horrendous even by the religious right in America, he is almost a living parody of the anti-gay sentiment that exists within many conservative churches in America. Why did UCD want this man to talk about Gay Adoption? Maybe it was a hope that his ridiculously anti-gay views would eclipise the particular scope of the topic and would result in a homophobic rant that would discredit the entire opposition to gay adoption… after all there are several oppenents to this idea that can express their opinoins more eloquently and with greater aplomb than Pastor “Cause God hates Gays!” Phelps.

    Just to make it clear I’m in favour of gay adoption. I think it’s just my years living in America that has made me sceptical of any public organisation that actually communicates with the Phelps… even FOX won’t talk to them anymore!

    FOX!

  • Pounder

    On another discussion forum I’m an active member at we’ve tangled more than once with Phred Phelps and his cult. The man is pure poison. There isn’t an ounce of goodness in him and he’s one of the few people in this world I wish a long and agonising death to.

    He pickets the funerals of anyone he can get near and even turned on his fellow fundie Jerry Falwell and IIRC protested at his funeral. He basically owns the domain names of “God Hates” and then adds whatever is pissing him off that perticular week, most notably God Hates Sweden saying that the Asian Tsunami of a few years ago was God out to get the few dozen swedes that died. The guy is a wack job.

  • Dawkins

    Protorius,

    “Maybe it was a hope that his ridiculously anti-gay views would eclipse the particular scope of the topic and would result in a homophobic rant that would discredit the entire opposition to gay adoption…”

    I believe you got it in one.

    While studying at length (for research purposes you understand) the hottie hunkering in the background, I noted her tattoo. And I remembered Larry David’s hilarious episode entitled The Special Section.

    Seems the cemetery won’t allow Larry’s momma to be buried in the main section. She has a tattoo on her bum, you see, and according to Leviticus 19:28,

    “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the Lord.”

    Ergo, the Ms Phelps pictured can’t be a true Christian. Shame on her!

  • Pounder

    Jeez Dawkins, don’t mention that chapter of the bible or a certain troll will turn up.

  • “What confuses me about this is why did UCD invite the famously insane/reculisve Pastor Phelps to attend their discussion on Gay adoption?”

    Publicity. The UCD and TCD debating societies regularly invite the most hardline and extreme people they can in the hope of getting publicity, statements in the Dail, phone-ins to Joe Duffy etc.

  • Dawkins

    Pounder,

    Only if I recite his name three times while looking in the mirror.

  • Jamie Gargoyle

    IMHO ever citizen of the Irish Republic should take pride that the tolerance of their nation offends hate-filled morons like this.

    It would be nice to starve them of the oxygen of publicity, or failing that, the oxygen of oxygen…

  • Fraggle

    Agree Dawkins, the casual inconsistency of these people reveals their hypocritical bigotry.

    If they are condemning sodomites, I womder if the lady in question also seduces her own father, an activity approved of by god in the relevant secion of the bible.

  • An Céilleachaireach Rúa

    Poor aul Lot never saw it coming and he not a widower for even a wet week…

  • Pounder

    After my dealings with Phelps else where I feel sorry for him more than anything. For all his vitrol and hate he strikes me as essentialy an unhappy man who uses fear to keep his family around him. If there is a god, a heaven and a hell I think he’ll be on a much lower level than I end up in.

  • páid

    To be fair to the young lady in question, that’s a decent leap, potential Riverdance recruit here.

    And she appears to be taking a leaf out of Darren Clarke’s book, and focusing on the Orange third of the flag.

    BTW, did ye know that, unlike the Irish Tricolour, the French tricoleur is not composed of equal red, white and blue sections.
    In order for it to appear equal, some sections are wider than others.

  • Cruimh

    Had a double take at this picture in the front of Guardian website – flag of India.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/

  • Paul
  • Dawkins

    Pounder,

    “For all his [Phelps’s] vitrol and hate he strikes me as essentialy an unhappy man…”

    I’m sure that’s true of every homophobe, and indeed of every bigot. If a peep is happy and confident within himself he has no need to hit on others. All gay bashers are deeply insecure, and yes I guess we should feel sorry for them.

    páid,

    “In order for it to appear equal, some sections are wider than others.”

    Is that not emblematic of society — with apologies to the fatties here :0)

  • Wilde Rover

    “Free speech is not the same thing as incitement to hatred. That’s why we have laws against it.”

    Dawkins

    By that logic Robert Mugabe is a paragon of virtue, meticulously rooting out anyone inciting people to hostility towards a minority in his country, i.e. the members of his regime.

    “It would be nice to starve them of the oxygen of publicity, or failing that, the oxygen of oxygen…”

    Jamie Gargoyle

    Are those words in themselves not an incitement to hatred?

    Do you think you should be imprisoned for them?

    And if Mr. Phelps were to make the same remarks, but directed at gays in a debate in a university would you be pressing for campus security to invite the Garda (or PSNI, as the case may be) onto the university campus, a supposed bastion of freedom, to have him removed and incarcerated?

    Then, if I were to incite hostility and aversion towards those who back a law that incarcerates people for speaking would it be right and proper that I be thrown in jail too?

    And would we not laugh heartily at the mouthwateringly sweet irony that we found ourselves in the same cell, all taking pride in the tolerance of the nation?

    Real freedom of speech is having the right to say what you want and the obligation to hear things you don’t want to hear.

    “In his home country, the controversial preacher is protected by the US Constitution’s First Amendment, which permits freedom of expression.”

    The Irish News

    One can only hope the Americans will never have the poor sense to surrender their freedom of expression, and that of their descendants, over one head the ball and his loony tunes family.

  • Gréagóir O’ Franclín

    Ah bless ’em all, typical American religious nutjobs. Keith Allen presented a programme on C4 recently about this family and he discovered that they had a few skeletons in the cupboard.

  • Cruimh

    Keith Allen – that was the chap Gréagóir. Superb show, up there with Ruby Wax visiting the rattlesnake dancers!

  • Dawkins

    Wilde Rover,

    “By that logic Robert Mugabe is a paragon of virtue, meticulously rooting out anyone inciting people to hostility towards a minority in his country, i.e. the members of his regime.”

    If you disagree with my “logic” then I take it you wouldn’t mind if I and a bunch of the lads were to come round in the middle of the night, stand outside your home with flaming torches and denounce you as a paedophile and rapist — or indeed anything else liable to make you less than popular with the neighbours.

  • Jamie Gargoyle

    WR – actually, it was a joke, and I think most people can tell the difference between a cheap one-liner on a blog and picketing a funeral.

    Perhaps next time I should add a “ba-doom-tish” to indicate joshing for the hard of humour…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    The Phelps are, frankly, one Protestant schism past being a cult of personality. Frankly, they’ve gone so far past the point of no return that even the Rev. NO! would look askance at them. Their church and their family are, to the best of my understanding, one and the same.

    Throw in the fact they’re mostly lawyers and hyporcites (but I repeat myself) and you have something that passes for the KKK’s version of Brother Love’s medicine show.

  • francesco

    guess who they voted for in the past elections…

  • John East Belfast

    Whether the emphasis is on Freedom of Speech or Incitment to Hatred really depends on the potential implications of his words.

    Freedom of speech for hate filled people like Phelps is a dangerous luxury for society and we only take comfort that he is not taken seriously and indeed he only opens himself up to ridicule. His immediate sphere of influence appears to be his own family circle.

    However if this was some firebrand Muslim preacher based in England then it would be a different matter as you can bet he would have somebody acting on his words in a very short space of time.

    Then what he says woyuld move into the sphere of Incitement to hatred.

    However often society only makes this move as a reaction to something that has already occurred.

    Speech can be every bit a dangerous weapon as any other.

  • francesco

    that’s what lack of culture and a massive dose of sodas can do to people and that proves that america is a weird weird place.
    i feel very sorry for the kids, which are the real victims in this pathetic family

  • Dawkins

    “Speech can be every bit a dangerous weapon as any other.”

    Exactly so, John. Like Francesco I’m sorry for the kids, not just Phelps’s but any kid listening to his ravings and being so naive and impressionable that his/her mind is poisoned.

  • Phelps is indeed a nasty piece of work. Those of us who oppose homosexual practice from the Bible with non-hatred of the individual are embarrassed to be bracketed with him.

    I also saw the Louis Theroux documentary. For me, the worst bit was one of their very young children they had brought along to a picket being injured by a missile thrown by an on-looker.

  • Wilde Rover

    Dawkins

    “If you disagree with my “logic” then I take it you wouldn’t mind if I and a bunch of the lads were to come round in the middle of the night, stand outside your home with flaming torches and denounce you as a paedophile and rapist—or indeed anything else liable to make you less than popular with the neighbours.”

    Not if you didn’t mind me ringing the police to report a breach of the peace and slander.

    Jamie Gargoyle

    “WR – actually, it was a joke, and I think most people can tell the difference between a cheap one-liner on a blog and picketing a funeral.
    Perhaps next time I should add a “ba-doom-tish” to indicate joshing for the hard of humour…”

    I must admit I lack your omnipotence and cannot look into the minds of everyone reading this thread to determine whether or not your remarks concerning death by suffocation has cyberspace rolling in the aisles.

    Please don’t mistake me for someone trying to defend this guy. I really don’t like him, and the main reason I don’t like him is the fact his expression of freedom seems to lead some people to express the view that freedom of expression should be curtailed just to shut gobshites like him up.

  • Dawkins

    Wilde Rover,

    “Not if you didn’t mind me ringing the police to report a breach of the peace and slander.”

    If you happen to live on an estate in Carrickfergus, good luck :0)

  • Pounder

    So basically God hates everyone except the Phelps family? Has the media tried to get gods opinion on this?

  • Aislingeach

    Phelps is an absolute nutcase whose anti-whatever screeds boil down to “LOOK AT ME!!!!” Pitiful and already in his own hell…best ignored, difficult as that is.
    Some groups have made appearances at Phelps-protested funerals just to form a buffer between his nonsense and the mourners; surely an act of mercy to their credit.

  • Dawkins

    Pounder,

    “Has the media tried to get gods opinion on this?”

    They have. But she isn’t taking calls.

  • Fraggle

    Watchman, as a follower of bible teaching on homosexuality, I suppose you also support incest.

  • Dawkins

    Oops, this is going to turn into another of those threads.

  • francesco

    and surely god hates THOSE threads…

  • Fraggle

    well, god doesn’t mind incent but will kill you if you’re mildly curious.

  • Wilde Rover

    “If you happen to live on an estate in Carrickfergus, good luck :0)”

    Damn you Dawkins, taking a perfectly good hypothetical argument and dragging it down into the gutter of reality ; )

    However, if I may gently suggest that in such areas (and I’ll take your word that it is so in Carrickfergus) if the cops aren’t coming out they’re not coming out.

    Jamie,

    All apologies for singling out your comment. I bear you no ill will, and I do appreciate you were more focused on the play of words for humorous effect than the way they could be manipulated to imply that you are some hate filled figure.

    Of course, I don’t believe for a moment you are, but mud sticks, and that’s why I am going out of my way to make this point.

    My point is that this is that there is no place for jokes if every form of humour goes under a microscope with a dubious filter.

    To err is human, (as slugger records will testify, at least on my account) and I would hate to think of us all creeping around on eggshells, afraid to craft a quip for fear of the heavy hand of absolutism.

    Fortunately, we are in a ball-oriented environment and the filter is still working;0)

  • The Dubliner

    At least she has the good political grace to dance on the orange part of the flag!

  • Dawkins

    Wilde Rover,

    “Damn you Dawkins, taking a perfectly good hypothetical argument and dragging it down into the gutter of reality ; )”

    LOL!

    “However…if the cops aren’t coming out they’re not coming out.”

    Jeeze, that’s way too subtle for me :0)

    I was only kidding about the tattooed hottie of course. That’s the end of her camera strap — or maybe the beginning of her bra strap.

    Mind you, being American she wouldn’t display her bra straps when wearing a sleeveless top, unlike the young women here.

  • on the plus side, they’ve managed to piss off even the military supporting right wing Republicans over in the States.

    so for the first in history they’ve managed to unite both Bush-loving “bomb the Eyeiraq” crowd AND the left wing moonbat “Kos Kid” Democrats.

  • Cruimh

    What odds they don’t have a fairy on top of their Christmas tree ? 😉

  • Rory

    What a lovely, wholesome healthy family. They have rigourously adhered to the protestant ethic of individual biblical interpretation and then preach the Word of God as it has been individually revealed to them in those writings.

    Each must listen to the Voice of his own interpretation. Me, I like smiting Philistines meself. Show me a Philistine and, quick as a flash, I’m in there with my trusty ass’s jawbone and a-smoting and a-smiting like billyo just like God commands.

    But it is very tiring work fulfilling God’s will and I don’t have much time or energy left over for smoting gays or platoons of US marines. Which is probably a good job as there wouldn’t be much left of the jarheads once I laid about them with Dobbin’s old jawbone. So it’s a good job really that the Phelpses are there to take up the slack. Hallelujah!

  • Pounder

    I think it’s unfair to lump Phelps in with the protestants especially given his picketing of Jerry Falwell’s funeral. Personaly I consider Phred Phelps a special brand of shit head out on his own.

  • Dawkins

    Pounder,

    “Personaly I consider Phred Phelps a special brand of shithead out on his own.”

    As was Falwell. The inimitable Christopher Hitchens gave him his comeuppance here.

  • Dawkins

    Apologies. Link should be this.

  • Rory

    “The inimitable Christopher Hitchens”, Dawkins ?

    I suppose a Trotskyite apologist for George Bush Jr. seeking the moral high ground by lambasting an obvious target like Falwell is a bit inimitable.

    The next time I’m in the dock for wife beating I must remember to appeal to the jury with a tearful impassioned denounciation of Bluebeard.

    That should do the trick.

  • Dawkins

    Rory,

    Nobody’s perfect. I guess being a godfree chap I’m a little biased about Hitchens’s qualities, yet to my mind he’s one of the finest intellectual writing or debating today. No one even comes close.

    Sorry to hear you haven’t stopped beating your wife :0)

  • Ricky

    As a born-again christian can I please say that Fred Phelps or the bunch of inbreads thay call Westburo Baptist Church does not speak for me. There are nothing but a dangerus cult.

  • Pounder

    Whats the differnce between a religion and a cult then Ricky? Political Power, Phelps has little or none, his arch nemesis Jerry Falwell (who could be just as vile and intollerant) has it by the bucketful. Phelps is rabid enough to made Republicans in America blush and that takes some doing.

  • Different Drummer

    Dread

    Just because you don’t think their serious doesn’t mean their actions won’t have serious consequences.

  • Dawkins

    “Just because you don’t think their serious doesn’t mean their actions won’t have serious consequences.”

    Not in Ireland, Different Drummer. The UCD peeps will be little more than amused by Mr Phelps, and the consequences of his gig won’t be than a ripple in the media, most likely a ripple of indulgent laughter.

    As an Englishman I hesitate to say it, but the Irish now have the most progressive, mature and grown-up society in these islands. Mr Phelps is in for a bit of a culture shock.

  • Different Drummer

    Dread

    Your now taking the line of playing the possible effects/consequences Mr Phelps visit down when you most certinly did not take a similar line on the pride folk devil who was – as I said is in now way comparable to the hate merchants like this one.

  • Drifferent Drummer

    Dawkins

    I think that the visit may have more troubling potenial than you are prepared to admit. There is the issue of Mr Phelps asking for a special dispensation to speak to get around Ireland’s anti-hate laws.

    It reminds me of IP snr visit to Switzerland during one of his hate campagins in the 1960s against the Vactican. He was arrested by the police and shoved about a bit. When returning here he made a point of saying ‘the civil rights marchers say that the police here should not have guns I saw some guns on those police in Switerland!’

    Infering that he was being victimised and under the same ‘regime’ and heavy maners as the civil rights marchers.

    Similarly Mr Phelps and his retinue will be saying that Ireland is an authoritain society that given the chance will also victimise them because it won’t give them (b____got’s) speaking rights.
    I think I’m not alone in fearing the worst for this rage-oholic. His rage seems about to reach it’s final acts. I fear for the man in his viserial quest that looks set not have the same ‘happy ending’ as that achieved – by IP snr the Organge Order and the UDA in the south.

    That’d wy your belief in Ireland having

    ‘the most progressive, mature and grown-up society in these islands’

    in relation to these matters is unfounded as the southern authorities have no problem at all with religious fundimentalists marching down O’Connell steet.

    It’s the rest of the population that have the problem with it. (and just in case you reach for the old conker – I don’t think that Pride march in Dublin should be taken or used to balance or justify any b____t’s to dominate Dublin’s streets).

  • Dawkins

    I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet but there’s a lively discussion of the Reverend Phelps going on over at Will Crawley‘s blog.

  • Different Drumer

    Yeah man

    Things are hotting up.

  • Turgon

    As a pretty old fashioned conservative evangelical (I do not mind the term fundamentalist) I have avoided posting on this site until now but feel that is cowardice so here goes. I find the Phelps lot rather odd. I do not like jumping to conclusions but I saw the Theroux video.

    What disturbed me most was the seeming pleasure gained from the idea that people will go to hell. I believe people will but it really saddens me to have to believe it. I got the impression (and judge not lest ye be judged) that the younger girls seemed to delight in the idea of people going to hell.

    The other distinctly odd remark was by the journalist who joined the Phelps. I think he said that no other group contained Christians because they (the Westbro Baptist Church) would have heard of them. That is just too silly to believe.

    Of course the idea of God hating people I also find contrary to my reading of scripture.

    I guess a lot of you will now go after me for being a fundamentalist nutter.

  • Dawkins

    Turgon, you’re a fundamentalist nutter :0)

    To be honest, compared to the Phelpses you’re a rock of sanity. Those peeps need their own planet.

  • Pounder

    I wouldn’t think so Turgon. A fundamentalist nutter certainly wouldn’t be as easy going about it. You have your beilefs and you are entitled to them, just as you seem to accept that I have mine and am likewise entitled to them. You seem closer to what a christian should be than a lot of others I’ve met are.

  • Drifferent Drummer

    ‘What disturbed me most was the seeming pleasure gained from the idea that people will go to hell. I believe people will but it really saddens me to have to believe it.’

    Well why not join the rest of humanity who are trying to live without the need to demonise and damm other people.

    When that happens then perhaps we talk about mutual respect.

  • Turgon

    Different Drummer,

    I am not an a la carte evangelical. As such I have to believe what the bible says about people going to hell. I sincerely hope that many people accept Christ just before death. Also as a calvanist I do believe that the Lord can save anyone whom He wants to at any point during their lives. I do try very hard not to demonise or damn people. I am sure I fail frequently and am answerable to God for such sinful judgements on my part.

  • Different Drummer

    Turgon

    That’s a restatement of your belief.

    It isn’t even a start towards a position of anything like respect or justice or fairness and if that’s where you want to stay then there will be no respect – which you obviously think you are entitled to.

    So don’t write as if you are entitled to respect when you are not prepared to earn it. You have not convinced me that you ‘try hard not to damm people’.

    Apart from the usual inference that if people who are homosexual reptented and then followed the path you are on then they would be saved theologically your unsound why? Because as fundimentialsit there is no going back to an undamming and and undenonising of homosexuals.

    Why should we give up what you and others enjoy just because of your fundimentalist reading of a religious text?

    That’s the meaning of our liberation for you – as if giving up who we are and following the path you are on would end our persecution and then only.

    Just think man think! people like me were publically burned by fundimentailsits in the past and fundimentalists *are still killing us* and condeming us every day. We fought you for our right to life and the persuit of happiness.

    Fundimentalists did not give us those rights and all over the world they are still doing their outmost to suppress us and you demand respect for that point of view!

    Being a fundimenalist doen’t make you good special or entitled to respect.

  • Turgon

    Different Drummer,

    I am sorry you find my beliefs offensive. I have actually been careful to avoid ever mentioning homosexuality on this or any other thread.

    Of course being a fundamentalist does not entitle me to anything. I do not desire your respect for my views nor for me. I do not deserve your respect.

    I posted that I found the Westboro baptist Church odd. I have not demonised nor damned anyone; my reading of the bible specifically forbids that. If I have ever judged, demonised or damned anyone I am sure God will hold me to account for those sins along with my many others.

    If you want a fight about how any group has mistreated homosexuals in the past you will not get it from me.

  • Different Drummer

    As a community we have some idea what a fundimentalist view of homosexuality looks like and it’s not peaceful or just.

    Look if you want to play the game of saying ‘I’m a fudimentalist’ and then say you think your version of fundimentalism is the most tollerant one. Then go ahead but don’t expect to be taken seriously – on any front. But as you well know that sort of BS gets a big hearing here. So I’m not surpised you’ve truned up to say hey! I’m a very nice person.

    Well I’m sure you are – But I’ll tell you guy I have had enough of the collective thought of ‘nice’ fundimentialists here genorilusly expressed by the tonne on why I’m not going to heaven.

    Yeah I’ve meet quite a few people who say their christains and then refuse to even admit that they are part of our conditions of opression and suppression.

    I don’t like apologists who take time out to say they are not apologists.

  • Dawkins

    Turgon,

    You come across as a very sincere chap and I respect that. That said, here’s the part I don’t understand:

    “I am not an a la carte evangelical. As such I have to believe what the bible says about people going to hell.”

    You have to believe every line of the Bible? Surely not. Aren’t biblical scholars agreed that the OT especially is a bit of a cut ‘n’ paste job? There are so many contradictory passages that one would be a little naive to accept them all as truth.

    I suppose what I’m trying to say is that it must be possible to be a fundamentalist, i.e. accepting the Bible as the foundation of one’s belief, without necessarily taking every verse of it seriously — or believing that the last word on its interpretation has been delivered.

  • Different Drummer

    Ah Dawkins

    Mr Phelps is ‘very sincere’ about his fundimentalist beliefs too.

    Also there is fundimentalism and there is fundimentalism and there is BS.

    There are also those fundimentalist secularists who spend way too much time on the suff of religion.

    Hey we all have our rituals!

    Only the subject here is the ritual of jumping on the (Irish) Flag and up and down because because Ireland – (along with some other EU counties) happens to be on one of the worlds most infamous fundimentalists hate lists becasue it has gay rights legislation.

    That does effect me in a different and more serious way than it could ever effect you.

    But I watched the BBC2 documentary mentioned above also and I saw the face of the brother of one of the soldiers killed in Iraq and the pain I saw in that face I shall never forget till the day I die. If you can appreciate that pain which these people thought they had right to add to then think of all the pain that we have been enduring for much much longer caused by these and other fundimentalists works.

    That’s been the reality for some time here and it’s time people faced up to it.

  • Dawkins

    Different Drummer,

    No, I can’t feel your pain; I can only imagine what it was like, and what it continues to be like.

    I find it tragic that some Christian fundamentalists can’t think outside the Book. Or better said: outside what they’ve been taught the Book to be. I’ve alluded to that above and I repeat: the last word of biblical exegesis has not been spoken.

    There’s every possibility that in years to come more enlightened souls will provide radically new interpretations of certain passages in the Bible, reject the interpretations that sow disharmony and provide kinder ones.

    I hope that in time it’s found that the verses which proscribe homosexuality are in error for one reason or another. They certainly contradict the Christian notion of a universally loving deity.

    I mentioned in another context that Yahweh doesn’t seem to have banned lesbian relationships. If this prohibition isn’t in the Bible, did someone slip up? Did God forget to mention it?

    I really do think it’s hard being a fundamentalist and accepting that a collection of ancient books is immutable truth, change and progress being a vital part of being human. This is how belief differs so much from scientific enquiry.

  • Different Drummer

    Dawg on Dawkings

    You repeat: ‘the last word of biblical exegesis has not been spoken’

    and repeat and repeat.

    I’m not asking to do the impossible (‘feel my pain’..)

    I’m just saying that you spend way too much time on the huermenutics and not enough on the humans that are being hurt by them.

  • Dawkins

    Different Drummer,

    “I’m just saying that you spend way too much time on the huermenutics and not enough on the humans that are being hurt by them.”

    But you don’t know how I spend my free time and the work I do. Nor am I going to tell you or anyone else here :0)

  • Turgon

    Different Drummer,

    I am sorry to not fight with you but I have not described myself as a nice or tolerant fundamentalist. I will not comment on whether or not you are going to heaven. That is one of the five fundamental doctrines of calvanism namely Unconditional election.

    “I don’t like apologists who take time out to say they are not apologists.”

    Well you do not seem to like me but that is something for you not me. I am not an apologist for anything. I stated my views on Westbro Baptist church no more, no less. I have yet to mention homosexuality.

  • Different Drummer

    Dawking and Turgon

    You really do deserve each other.

    This is *slugger* o’toole not shadow boxing o’toole.

    How long do you want to play the cardinal BS response

    ‘you should not assume and I’m not telling’.

    Jesz what a pair of pussies!

  • Turgon

    Different Drummer,

    Ever heard of anger management? I must admit on a religion based thread to manage to include Dawkins and myself as similar and equally worthy of contempt is a rare achievement.

  • Different Drummer

    You think your opposed to one another but are circling and meowing at one another for a while now – it’s feline united front!

    Interesting you think you can address peoples’ anger with anger managemnet classes.Ever heard the rightious anger of a crowd of muderious (homophobic) fundimentalists? I have and I don’t think you would have much luck telling them or Dr Phelps to go to anger managment classes.

    In fact that would be something to see wouldn’t it one very good fundimentalist asking another who is not so good to go on anger managment course.

    Tim McGarry thou should be reading this blog.

  • Dawkins

    “Jesz what a pair of pussies!”

    >^..^<>^..^<

    Whatever can you mean, DD?

    But I agree, best to call it a night when I find common cause with a religious wingnut fundamentalist :0)

    “G’night, Turgon!”

    “G’night, Dawkins!”

    “G’night, John Boy!”

    “G’night, Drummer Boy!”

  • Different Drummer

    Dawg On Dawkins

    Is off to bed folks – even pussies need a power nap.
    But he’ll be back again soon to scratch my eyes out.

    Meanwhile some where across the Atlantic in an another state of deluded grace Dr Phelps makes more plans to invade Ireland.

  • Pounder

    It’s a sad day when a self professed fundie seems more calm and reasonable than an athiest. DD you really aren’t doing your cause an favours. You’re just a fundamentalist of a different nature but just as intollerant and hateful as the people you claim to despise.

  • Different Drummer

    Errrm Pounder

    Not sure what your responding to – the politics or the humour or both.

    If it’s the humour I think Dear ol Dawg Dawkins was very funny posting himself and our resident fundimentalist as two very well drawn smiling little pussies. I went to bed laughing.

    If it’s the politics perhaps you should say what and why exactly and we will take it from there.

    But it is nice to see someone starting to take this issue seriously .

  • Pounder

    Well generally you DD are acting exactly as you accuse Turgon of acting. You claim he is an intollerant fundie yet you are the one intollerant of his right to have his own beliefs, he isn’t forcing his view on anyone he stated what he believed and left it at that you are the one hounding his beliefs. You accuse him of homophobia, yet the facts show that Turgon had been very careful not to comment on the homophobia. You remind me of one of John Cleese’s characters in Life of Brian PERSECUTE THE BELIEVER!!!!111shift+1

  • Turgon

    In fairness to Different Drummer, the use of the term fundamentalit has evolved quite a lot. Once it meant people who had a strict adherance to their religious position as opposed to a liberal position.

    Fundamentalist now seems to be used as a term for people who do indeed have such a religious position but also frequently mix it with politics, usually extremely conserative and often totalitarian politics, with the two becomming blurred.

    Can I start a campaign to rehabilitate the term fundamentalist?

  • Different Drummer

    Pounding and Turgoning

    I like the John C refernce – a gool old NI standard there folks! a bit out dated but that’s what we like here in our little never never land.

    Making who is or is not saying what they really mean is really a BIG BS response – why cos my pounding man you can’t prove a negative in rhetoric or didn’t you know that…but keep trying if it amuses you it certinaly is amusing me all the advocay for the right to say nothing on a blog about a serious issue.

    Errr talking of which what’s our resident fundimentalist calling for today?

    “….Can I start a campaign to rehabilitate the term fundamentalist?”

    Oh Jesz he’s still meowing….