Attacks spread to Co. Londonderry

Three Orange halls were vandalised in Co. Londonderry last night. One of the halls targeted Killygullib has been repeatedly attacked. UPDATE The OO has said 50 halls have been attacked in the last three weeks of which nine were in Co. Londonderry. UPDATE A UPRG Spokesperson is claiming that there has been a growth in attacks in the city area as well.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    What do you think of the Order spokesman saying “it may have something to do with the dynamics within the republican community”?

    Are ‘dissidents’ behind this spate of clearly sectarian attacks? Or is it just hoods?

  • fair_deal

    BG

    I don’t have a good enough reading of what is going on in republican communities to honestly know.

    I’d be interested to know what the “republican slogans” painted actually said. AFAIK the Rasharkin incident involved pro-CIRA grafitti.

    Maybe the next IMC will cast more light.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Plus Kilrea hall had its windows broken on 6th July

  • Maud’s gone

    Where’s that then? Is it near Derry?

  • Cruimh

    An attempt to provoke the nutters in Upperlands?

  • jpeters

    who are they am not sure were Upperlands is

  • DK

    Interesting the speculation from the order spokesperson – reading between the lines he is saying that Sinn Fein are no longer the problem in this arena & it is the dissidents (although if the vandalism said CIRA or RIRA that isn’t much of a deduction to make).

  • Pól

    I am a republican. I 100% condemn these attacks without reservation. Nothing can justify them.

  • francesco

    seems like the old gerrymanding times are long gone..

  • Cruimh

    “who are they am not sure were Upperlands is ”

    Upperlands is a loyalist stronghold, close to Maghera.

    Mark Wilson of UPMJ is from Upperlands

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2003/nov11_Drumcree_rioters_lucky.php

  • circles

    As a republican I agree with Pól.

    Now if I was a militant catholic I might understand where these freaks are coming from. But if they were motivated by the anti-catholic nature of the OO then I suppose we should expect catholic graffiti – for example “Jesuits” or “Benedict Rules”, or maybe 5 complete decades of the rosary sprayed along a wall.

    The fact they sprayed “republican” graffiti though is mindboggling a little – could we not just call these eejits thugs with a violent streak and a victim complex?

  • The Penguin

    “The fact they sprayed “republican” graffiti though is mindboggling a little…”

    Sure it is.

    Mindboggling as well that Irish republicans so easily forget – or think the rest of us will easily forget, more like – the sectarian example they set for decades.
    Things are so much better now. After all, what’s a little anti-prod graffitti compared to anti-prod mass murder?

  • BogExile

    Republican targetting small isolated Protestant rural communities is nothing new. Orange Halls reprsent a visible manifestation of Protestant identity within often overwhelmingly nationalist/republican areas.

    It is simply this physical symbol of presence which is resented and attacked. About as nakedly sectarian as you can get. (Unless of course you worship in a Catholic church near a loyalist housing estate)

    It is entirely right for nominally inclusive republicanism to reject the morons who stain their cause. Even better to use the very extensive and pervasive community machinery they have at their disposal to shop the nasty fuckers to the police.

  • Maud’s gone

    The Penguin,

    I didn’t know that republicans victimised people for their religion. Especially seeing as how they are political rather than sectarian. Bear in mind that most of the founders of Irish republicanism were not Catholic.

  • BogExile

    ‘I didn’t know that republicans victimised people for their religion’

    [edited by moderator] Your dissenting founders of irish republicanism would have vomited at the way their ideals were perverted by the dozens of sectarian killings of protestants in and out of their places of worship dressed up as political killings.

  • BogExile

    Maud

    Or do you think Wolfe Tone would have said, ‘I know, lets go into a pentecostal church in South Armagh and nut a few pensioners in the cause of Irish freedom.’ For fuck sake.

  • Maud’s gone

    Bog Exile –

    No need to get personal.

    Anyhoo, I agree that burning a building which is sacrad to ANYONE is entirely wrong and out of step with the fundamental principles of inclusive republican ideology. I condemn it. Howeeeeever, I doubt you can find me an example of someone killed by republicans because of their religion.

  • Maud’s gone

    Or do you think Wolfe Tone would have said, ‘I know, lets go into a pentecostal church in South Armagh and nut a few pensioners in the cause of Irish freedom.’ For fuck sake

    …..dearie me Bogexile, you’re losing yourself in expletives…. mind the language now.

  • fair_deal

    Would commentors please remember the site rule, play the ball not the man.

  • parcifal

    circles
    I agree entirely… even a daubing of: “There’s only one true Church” would make more sense.

  • Maud’s gone

    Ah Fair_deal,

    I’m disappointed! Play the ball, not the MAN/WOMAN 🙂

  • Garibaldy

    Maud’s gone,

    I take it the reference to Darkley went unnoticed by you. How about Kingsmill, do you know that that was an example of 10 people killed for their religion by Catholic nationalists masquerading under the title republicans?

  • BogExile

    You have to be American (continental) to advance such a ludicrously fatuous proposition:

    ‘No republican ever killed anyone in the NI conflict because of their religion.’

    It suits republican revisionists (are you one?) to retrofit all their disgusting violence with a political muffler.

    Protestants were killed by Catholic terrorists because at heart, they hated their ‘otherness’. Protestant terrorists did exactly the same thing albeit in a more nakedly sectarian way to demonstrate to Catholics that PIRA could not defend them.

    Politics is just a handy way of rationalising otherwise incomprehensible cruelty. If you don’t see that, you weren’t born here.

  • Cahal

    As a republican, I also condemn attacks on these Orange Klan huts.

    My guess is they will taper off over the next few years, along with the klan.

  • Ulster McNulty

    Garibaldy

    “How about Kingsmill..”

    Was that was an example of howaboutery?

  • circles

    “Protestants were killed by Catholic terrorists because at heart, they hated their ‘otherness’. Protestant terrorists did exactly the same thing albeit in a more nakedly sectarian way to demonstrate to Catholics that PIRA could not defend them.”

    Oh very cute indeeed BogExile – the “protestant terrorists” had a reasoned plan – whereas the “catholic” ones were just haters of “otherness”.
    When in fact they were all just sectarian.

  • Fitzy

    I’m not commenting one way or another who attacked the halls in question, but every time you use a public toilet in the north you are about 100 percent to see IRA, CIRA, RIRA, UDA, UVF, UFF, LVF, FTQ, FTP, …… i’m guessing that these are not a result of dispatching ‘volunteers’ on a toilet-wall carving operation. more likely drunk arseholes trying to antagonize and feel hard. I think these hall attacks are in the same vain; slightly more calculated, but still a bunch of drunk arseholes out looking to annoy.

  • Turgon

    Cahal,
    “As a republican, I also condemn attacks on these Orange Klan huts.

    My guess is they will taper off over the next few years, along with the klan.”

    Calling orange halls “Klan huts” is pretty unhelpful, as is calling the orange order the “klan”. I am pleased you condemn the attacks but such vitriolic language is unhelpful.

    If you are waiting for the orange order to die out in South Londonderry you will be waiting a very long time indeed.

    Still thankyou for condemning these attacks.

  • Garibaldy

    Ulster,

    Nope. It was a direct response to Maud’s gone saying that (s)he doubted that there were sectarian killings by people who call themselves republicans. Therefore not whataboutery, certainly not in intention.

  • lib2016

    The Orange Order had a purpose once but that purpose no longer exists. Orange supremacism is over.

    The idea of Orangefest lasted all of twelve months, just as the Apprentice Boys in Derry weren’t capable of sustaining a cross-community festival.

    The OO will go the way of the AOH in NI. The only people who could sustain it are thugs and idiots from the nationalist community who give it credence.

    Frankly I hope that the nationalist community has more sense than to continue these attacks.

  • lib2016

    Oh, just in case there’s any misunderstanding of my position. There were and continue to be sectarian actions by many republicans but they were wrong and they should be condemned.

    I can’t say that I’ve never been guilty of prejudice. What I can and do claim is that I try to avoid it.

  • UFB

    I admit that Republicans were responsible for a few secterian murder incidents but if Republicans were responsible for wholesale secterian slaughter because, as people like Bogexile claim, “Protestants were killed by Catholic terrorists because at heart, they hated their ‘otherness’ what was to stop Republicans continuosly filling cars full of 600lbs of fertilizer parking them in places like Sandy Row, The Shanill or Newtonards rds and walking away from them?.

    They obviously had the knowledge and capability to inflict such mass murder.

    BTW the disgusting attacks on OO halls should stop immediately.

  • fair_deal

    UFB

    “what was to stop Republicans continuosly filling cars full of 600lbs of fertilizer parking them in places like Sandy Row, The Shanill or Newtonards rds and walking away from them?”

    Check out the record of bomb attacks and associated deaths in the early 1970’s such attacks as you describe did occur (usually on pubs)and the equivalent happening in nationalist districts eg McGurks.

  • Madpainter

    who carried out kingsmill, wasnt it catholic reaction force or something along those lines. I dont think the pira claimed credit for it as part of there campaign. Kingsmill was not part of a republican agenda

  • circles

    fair_deal – is that not a trifle exaggerated?
    Yes these sectarian attacks happened – but continuously?
    The RUC and british army bore the brunt of the IRA’s attacks – which in no way denies the facts that the attacks you mention took place – but we were far from dealing with a civil war siuation, which would have been the case if there had been a continuous campaign of bombings.
    Even the much vaunted siege mentality can’t be used to explain such a dramatic bending of history as that.

    But now we’re off thread with that.

  • Reader

    Madpainter: who carried out kingsmill, wasnt it catholic reaction force or something along those lines.
    That was the IRA. But since you are here, do you have any theories about who DAAD were? Also, can you find a Shinner to call for the sectarian killers of Kingsmills to be turned in to the PSNI, right now, without political status? After all, as you pointed out it “was not part of a republican agenda”

  • Turgon

    UFB,
    “I admit that Republicans were responsible for a few secterian murder incidents ” Do you have any idea just how insulting that it to unionists? and I suspect to very many nationalist?. We regard the whole IRA campaign as one of secterian murder. Which of the IRA murders were not secterian murders? Were non secterian murders okay in your book?

    In terms of the second part of the post “what was to stop Republicans continuosly filling cars full of 600lbs of fertilizer parking them in places like Sandy Row, The Shanill or Newtonards rds and walking away from them?.” They managed attacks like that pretty often, there are a lot of dead people because of precisely such attacks. The fact that they were often stopped is because the RUC and army thankfully frequently managed to stop them.

  • Cruimh

    One of the reasons Internment was approved in August 1971 was because the IRA did exactly what UFB claims they did not do – they tried to bomb the 12th July march in Belfast.

  • Cruimh

    Brendan ‘Bik’ Macfarlane, pal of G Adams, leader of the IRA in the maze – life imprisonment for sectarian gun and bomb attack on the Bayardo bar that killed 5 protestants.

    According to Wikipedia “The IRA killed 91 Protestant civilians in similar attacks in 1974-76, in reprisal for loyalist attacks on Catholics”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_McFarlane

    IRA attack on a Boys brigade parade wasn’t sectarian? Children attacked on the same day as they slaughtered eleven at the Enniskillen Remembrance day ceremony ?

  • fair_deal

    Circles

    I didn’t make the claim it was a civil war simply that sectarian attacks were part of the violence by republican groups. Civil conflict on the streets was common too.

    This dual pattern is not particularly surprising when you consider the PIRA often claims two roles – the ‘resistance’ against British rule and the ‘defenders’ of the catholic community.

    I don’t know how old you are but many of us are of a later generation and I think we don’t realise how truly callous and vicious that period was. If you have the time read through the Sutton index for the early-mid 70’s.

  • circles

    Hold on one second folks – we were talking about some thugs smashing up a countryside Orange Hall. To try and draw any kind of equivalent with any of the sectarian murders that happened here is not only ridiculous and reeking of whataboutery, but is also a trivialistion of these murders.
    No single politician here from the main parties has clean hands and a halo – all have connections to murderers. Whether its Adams or Paisley there is no difference on that account – they have acquaintances that the other community finds repugnant. Arguing over who disgusts who the most is playground nonsense.
    The message here is stop wrecking these halls – end of story.

  • Mad painter

    Reader i think your example of DAADS is a joke. Kings mill was south armagh reaction force. Some people are probably members of multiple organisations but you can not take the actions of a few bad people as an excuse to lable a massive movement as sectarian. Republicans dont go to the police because they have been fucked over to many times to trust them. and because the attack was done to protect the people that you are saying should turn the perpotrators in. Remember it was a reaction to the reavy and odowd attacks.

  • circles

    Fair_deal – my problem was the use of the word continuously in the post – not over the bloody period of the early seventies.
    There was no continuous filling of cars with explosives to drive into loyalist areas.

  • madpainter

    The IRA leadership has never ordered a sectarian attack it is against there military strategy. Some protestants got kill by there guns but they were not ment to be. civilians get killed in war and good spin artests play off it to make groups look more barbaric and evil.

  • fair_deal

    Circles

    Yes we have diverged from the topic of what is attacked but not the potential motivations behind it.

    I am not aware of anyone on this thread trying to say an attack on property is the equivalent to a loss of life.

    It was also in response to a claim that sectarianism plays no part in republicanism. So it was legitimate to query that and exemplify it. When faced with overt sectarianism it is often easier for us all to consider such things an aberration but it usually isn’t. Denial is not an option.

    “The message here is stop wrecking these halls – end of story.”

    Can I get an Amen?

  • fair_deal

    Circles

    “my problem was the use of the word continuously in the post”

    I didn’t use that term “continuously”, UFB did.

  • circles

    we’re getting into semantics F_D. You said “such attacks did occur” in response to UFB’s “continuously”.
    Yeah well – of no real relevance to debate this point as I think we are more or less saying the same thing.

  • fair_deal

    “I think we are more or less saying the same thing.”

    Yep

  • Outsider

    Its amazing how this discussion on attacks on Orange halls has swayed into areas such as the OO will soon become history and the usual tired references to the OO and the kkk.

    Not much talk about the bigotry of those who attacked these halls or what about the bigotry shown to two bandmen in Enniskillen on the 12th who were physically attacked by a Nationalist thug?

  • Cahal

    Turgon
    “If you are waiting for the orange order to die out in South Londonderry you will be waiting a very long time indeed. ”

    Fine, I have all the time in the world.

    When the north becomes a properly functioning entity (i.e. when reunification occurs) I’m sure the Klan will become an embarrassment to prods like the AOH or those weird INLA marches are embarrassing to most nationalists.

    As always we are waiting for loyalist extremists in the klan to catch up.

  • Outsider

    Cahal is obviously a troll.

  • Maud’s gone

    I’m still waiting for someone to tell me where this londonDerry place is… Is it near freeDerry?

  • Cahal

    Yes Outsider, I live under a bridge.

    Believe it or not, most nationalists and a good few unionists hope the OO will go the way of the AOH, IRA, UDR (and all those other extremist groups) i.e. to obscurity.

    They are holding the north back. Picking at the old sectarian scab every summer, never letting it heal, keeping the wound festering.

    But hey, that’s considered normal in the six.

  • BogExile

    ‘Oh very cute indeeed BogExile – the “protestant terrorists” had a reasoned plan – whereas the “catholic” ones were just haters of “otherness”.
    When in fact they were all just sectarian. ‘

    Hang on Circles! How have a ascribed ‘reason’ to what I see as ‘incomprehensible cruelty.’ If i did I didn’t meaan to in the generally understood sense of the word which excludes all orange and green sub-human executioners who should be understood less and condemned more as time elapses.

    Maud’s Gone:

    I’m still waiting for someone to tell me where this londonDerry place is… Is it near freeDerry?

    Tedious agit-prop. I assume that the closest you have been to ‘derry’ your side of the Atlantic is via Stephen King.

  • How droll Maud, atleast the Cahal/maggot troll is entertaining.

  • circles

    OK BogExile – maybe it was late and I was reading too much into it.
    Although i’d say the most scarey thing about the executioners is that they were all too human.

  • Outsider

    Cahal

    Around 250,000 people at the last election considered themselves as Unionists and voted as such, there was over 1/2 a million people at the twelfth supporting and partisipating, so your assumption that most Unionists want the order to disappear is false.

    Sorry to disappoint but up here in Fermanagh the order is doing extremely well with many lodges receiving and influx of new members, reports from Tyrone are also very good.

  • Cahal

    “your assumption that most Unionists want the order to disappear is false.”

    Where did I say most unionists? Please don’t be putting words in my mouth.

    Having a large(yet rapidly decreasing) membership doesn’t really bestow respectability you know.

    “At its peak, Klan membership exceeded 4 million and comprised 20% of the adult white male population in many broad geographic regions, as high as 40% in some areas.” Wikipedia.

    You may have a point though, perhaps sometime in the very distant future the OO will morph into a Christian organization that condemns violence.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/823511.stm

  • Jim Kemmy

    It is good to see the good citizens of Co Londonderry show the Orange Nazis the flame of light. But why only three?

  • Reader

    Matpainter: Reader i think your example of DAADS is a joke.
    Are you refusing to answer the question? Who were DAAD? Specifically – do you accept that the IRA used that cover name to deny responsibility for killings because it suited them to do so?
    Madpainter: and because the attack was done to protect the people that you are saying should turn the perpotrators in.
    Incredible – are you now condoning Kingsmills? How did it protect anyone? If you think that is the case, why should the IRA not be involved? A dozen heavily armed men kill a bus load of Protestant workmen. Who else would it be?
    Madpainter: Republicans dont go to the police because…
    Would you handle sectarian killers of Protestants any different from sectarian killers of Catholics? Is that the Republican thing to do?

  • Sean

    Reader
    Incredible – are you now condoning Kingsmills? How did it protect anyone? If you think that is the case, why should the IRA not be involved? A dozen heavily armed men kill a bus load of Protestant workmen. Who else would it be?

    Steady on there mate, I now these sites lead to exageration but try and keep it with in the realms of believeability

  • Sean

    Sean: but try and keep it with in the realms of believeability
    OK Sean – tell me what I said that you don’t believe. There were two surviving witnesses to Kingsmills.
    Or if you are wondering why I said ‘condoning Kingsmills’, then note where I quoted Mad Painter’s comment: “…the attack was done to protect the people…” If a Loyalist had said such a thing to justify a sectarian atrocity you would have been outraged, wouldn’t you? I thought I was quite restrained, under the circumstances.

  • Sean

    the other Sean

    Of course I would be outraged if you said that about a protestant paramilitary because they already had the real military on their side killing innocent catholics why would they need a paramilitary

    its the dozens of heavily armed IRA and the Bus full of innocent prods that you allude to that I was calling an exageration

    I fully admit that it was a tragedy and an atrocity but it was 10 people not a half a hundred it wasnt 65 prods lined up infront of a shallow trench with a bullet behind the ear.