To fall from favour

The Orange Arch in my home town of Hillsborough has very nice depictions of the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh proudly displayed. Last year I was traveling through Magherafelt with a colleague, and was quite surprised to see on their arch, not the Queen and the Duke, but William McCrea and Ian Paisley (the latter of course not being a member of the Institution). My colleague told me that he believed the arch was in fact owned and maintained by the local DUP. He now isn’t so sure, as this year he tells me the images of the politicians have been replaced by a picture of Dan Winter’s cottage and a verse of scripture. Seems an interesting year to change.

  • DaithiO

    One thing NEVER changes Michael… the bigotry of The OO who clearly have no regard for the peace process and where it has brought us.

  • JAUN

    and the above comment reflects the unilateral and total respect for other cultures that the peace process in founded on perfectly.

    Making hateful comments about the other side is clearly the perogative of the other side and thats the only reason we need to make hateful comments about the otherside, the other side (who we respect as part of the peace process) are bastards for making hateful comments about us.

  • Magherafelt Unionist

    I know that the arch in Magherafelt (do get it right, Michael) was opened, as it were, in 1986 by the then Lord Mayor of Belfast, Sammy Wilson. I was far too young to remember this occasion, but I’m told the local DUP flute band (we had one in those far off days) provided the musical entertainment. The arch in Magherafelt is quite nice, although the images of Paisley and McCrea did give it a cultish air, and gave the local Orange district a political overtone they have been tarnished with – McCrea is a member of an Orange lodge in Castledawson District, not Magherafelt. Certainly, the arch would appear prior to now to be the work of the local DUP, not Magherafelt District LOL No 3.

    Alas, we can no longer erect the arch in my home village, a few miles north of Magherafelt – it’s too risky. It was very nice, a big image of King William crossing the Boyne in the centre of it, and the legend E II R above that. But at least it didn’t glorify two living politicians, one of whom isn’t even an Orangeman. As Michael says, a very strange year to alter the formula which has served well for two decades – can we expect Dr McCrea to be booed in Moneymore this July 12th, and Dr Paisley likewise at the Independent Orange Order celebrations?

  • DaithiO

    Jaun or is it Juan,

    So an organisation that institutionally hates catholics and catholicism and therefore bans catholics from being members is a shining beacon of inclusivity and not at all hateful?

    Don’t make me laugh.

    Me expressing an opinion which is that the above is wrong is not hateful is it?

  • Dewi

    Didn’t realise Paisley not a member – he’s got his own order has he ?

  • Michael Shilliday

    Correct me if I’m wrong Daithi, but doesn’t the Catholic Church ban Protestants from membership?

  • Michael Shilliday

    Ian Paisley, as far as I remember reading, was a member in Sandy Row until the mid 60’s, when he was expelled from membership for non payment of dues. That is my current understanding, for which I will stand corrected if someone knows better,

  • fair_deal

    “Ian Paisley, as far as I remember reading, was a member in Sandy Row until the mid 60’s, when he was expelled from membership for non payment of dues”

    He resigned because of the OO refusal to discipline a senior member. He was not expelled.

  • Turgon

    Magherafelt Unionist,

    You raise an interesting question about booing McCrea. I usually go to his gospel service for a while on the 12th day. I do not approve of booing a religious meeting but I must admit I may not pause at his meeting in my walk up the town for chips at Moneymore this year.

  • CURIOUS

    “But at least it didn’t glorify two living politicians, one of whom isn’t even an Orangeman”

    First minister of the assembly Ian Paisley is not a member of the OO, but he used to be a member many moons ago.

    The reason Ian paisley left the OO back in the 60’s was because Grand Lodge of Ireland, who were controlled in those days by the upper & middle class UUP Prods refused to accept his Doctrate of Divinity he received from the Bob Jones University in the US.
    Paisley had applied to become a chaplin and Grand Lodge told him to get on his bike. He left with deep resentment and disgust against the Grand Lodge of the 1960’s.

  • An Céilleachaireach Rúa

    Michael, the last I checked, the OO was not a freestanding religion. A fairer comparison would be the AOH. I’ve yet to see much support expressed on here for those particular dinosaurs

  • Dewi

    Three different explanations for why he left – strange it hasn’t been a bigger issue in his career.

  • curious

    “Ian Paisley, as far as I remember reading, was a member in Sandy Row until the mid 60’s, when he was expelled from membership for non payment of dues. That is my current understanding, for which I will stand corrected if someone knows better,”

    Michael, in the 1960’s the Grand Lodge refused to accept the Free Presbyterian Church as an authentic religious denomination. They therefore refused to accept Paisley as a chaplin.

    He was not thrown out of his lodge for non fee paying.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Willie Mccrea will be in Limavady this year, but in accordance with tradition will not be allowed to make a political speech.This means that there will not be the opposition that he might have expected otherwise.

    I wonder if he will think back forty years to the fate of George Forrest, the local stormont Unionist MP who was attacked on an orange platform for being too liberal?

  • South Derry nationalist

    It’s a disgrace that there’s any arch up in Magherafelt….a majority nationalist town.

    Or indeed any of the many flags that are up in the town.

  • Turgon

    Darth,

    Does that mean he is not going to be with us in Moneymore? or is it a county demonstration this year?

  • Oranges for Sale

    South Derry nationalist

    “It’s a disgrace that there’s any arch up in Magherafelt….a majority nationalist town. ”

    Indeed, and Northern Ireland is a majority unionist province. So where do we go from here?

  • Turgon

    South derry Nationalist,

    So when / where can flags of respective sorts be flown and when / where are they a disgrace?

  • fair_deal

    Curious

    “The reason Ian paisley left the OO back in the 60’s was because Grand Lodge of Ireland, who were controlled in those days by the upper & middle class UUP Prods refused to accept his Doctrate of Divinity he received from the Bob Jones University in the US.”

    “Michael, in the 1960’s the Grand Lodge refused to accept the Free Presbyterian Church as an authentic religious denomination. They therefore refused to accept Paisley as a chaplin.
    He was not thrown out of his lodge for non fee paying.”

    This is all wrong I am afraid.
    1. The list of acceptable denominations for chaplains in the OO was passed in December 1951. Paisley didn’t leave until 1962, 11 years later.
    2. Paisley was awarded a doctorate by Bob Jones in 1966, four years after he resigned.
    3. He resigned from the OO in September 1962 publicly citing the failure to discipline Sir Robin Kinahan.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Out of interest, discipline him for what? And do you have a reference?

  • curious

    1. The list of acceptable denominations for chaplains in the OO was passed in December 1951.

    Can you name those acceptable denominations?

    I bet you wont frind the Free P’s on that list or in the 1960’s because the Grand Orange Lodge considered Paisley’s church a weird cult then. Today many members of Grand Lodge are Free’p’s.
    and all the upper & middle class UUP guys are all gone.

  • Papa Doc will have a nerve if he turns up to the Independent Orange demonstration after what he told the brethren last year. Let’s hope the rotten eggs are already being stockpiled. If I was the old Lundy, I’d suddenly find a prior appointment washing my hair that day.

  • Dewi

    http://www.seekgod.ca/acccmeet.htm
    Quote from this site:

    “Ian Paisley was once a member of the Shankill Road Lodge of the Orange Order and a lodge chaplain, but he resigned from the Order when the County Grand Lodge refused to expel Sir Robin Kinahan for attending a funeral service in a Roman Catholic chapel.”

    Don’t know how robust that is.

  • fair_deal

    Curious

    ” bet you wont frind the Free P’s on that list ”

    Never said you did find the Free P’s on it. It was highlighting your timing “1960’s” and thus purported cause and effect were wrong as the timings were out of sync.

    MS

    It’s all in Ed Moloney/Andy Pollak’s book.

  • Dewi

    No longer astonished that the resign for his resignation is not widely discussed. Although it does show that the OO ai’nt quite as bad as portrayed. It allows its members to attend Catholic funerals !

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Michael,

    When Lord Mayor (kinahan) he continued to strike the open-minded, cross-community note which in the Sixties had brought about an attempt – unsuccessful – to have him expelled from the Orange Order when he attended a Catholic wedding and funeral.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19970527/ai_n14111953

    That article also carries another interesting statement, wonder what the OO bashers think about this…

    there was a large contingent of Roman Catholic workers and Kinahan was always delighted to relate how they turned out to cheer him as, on 12 July, he walked with his lodge to the “field”. Such tolerant scenes were common in the days before Sinn Fein dominated the parades issue

  • curious

    ‘Never said you did find the Free P’s on it. It was highlighting your timing “1960’s” and thus purported cause and effect were wrong as the timings were out of sync.”

    OK, but Paisley and other Free P OO members were given a hard time by the UUP upper and middle class LOL’s of the early 60’s.
    Of course when Paisley formed the DUP there were many of his followers who were black balled by the OO and dismissed over numerous petty misdemeanours, one being overdue in your dues.

  • frank

    ‘Such tolerant scenes were common in the days before Sinn Fein dominated the parades issue’

    Perhaps those were the days before the orange order used loyalist paramilitaries to lead them on parades as was the case with a lodge & band in the mini 12th parade in East Belfast last evening

    http://www.whitewelldefendersfb.com/inmemory.html

    I don’t know what relevance a 10 year old article written by a unionist about an orangeman has to do with the price of coal, especially when Bradford urged the British to do a deal with the unionist terrorists running the uwc strike (secret meeting with uvf chief of staff, Ken Gibson)in 74 & defended the desision to deny’ one man one vote’ earlier.

    I presume the article is by unionist Roy Bradford.

    considering the author had no issues dealing with loyalist terrorists, take it with a pinch of salt fyu.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Actually I thought Moloney & Pollak was my source too! Must go read it again.

  • Dewi

    “there was a large contingent of Roman Catholic workers and Kinahan was always delighted to relate how they turned out to cheer him as, on 12 July, he walked with his lodge to the “field”. Such tolerant scenes were common in the days before Sinn Fein dominated the parades issue”

    FYU – u have no idea how patronising that sounds !!! Why not use peasants instead of workers ?

  • Cruimh

    “Why not use peasants instead of workers ?”

    Because it wasn’t in the ROI 😉

  • jimmyjoe

    DARTH
    McCrea in Limavady hip hip horray. I will now look forward to going to Moneymore with the knowledge that Lundy McCrea will not be there.Is this the same McCrea that told us his stomach would turn if SF/IRA were in government.Willie could get a job in the circus along with the rest of his dup colleagues as acrobats as they keep doing sommersaults.
    Hopefully there will be a protest for the modern day Judas as he steps unto the platform

  • Sean

    Crumb I am sure if anyone wanted your opinion they could just ask dave and cut out the middle man

  • Turgon

    Jimmyjoe,

    Moneymore will be more fun anyway

  • Gum

    Michael, does the arch in Hillsborough not depict Charles Windsor as opposed to his dad? I was walking past it last night and I thought it was the Queen and the Prince of Wales.

  • CURIOUS

    How come the Queen and Charles winsor proudly displayed on the Orange arch at Hillsbourgh when neither of them are OO members either. All this nonsense about Paisley not being a member is hypoctitical. The way things are going at stotmont next year we might have Gerry and Martin proudly displayed on an arch at Whiterock.

  • curious

    How come the Queen and Charles Winsor are proudly displayed on the Orange arch at Hillsborough, when neither of them are OO members either. So all this nonsense about Paisley not being an OO member is hypoctitical. The way things are going at stormont next year we might have Gerry and Martin proudly displayed on an orange arch at Whiterock.

  • Gum

    I loved the description – ‘Love thy God; honour thy King’.

    I respect traditions and feel their quirks should be respected cause God knows I have plenty of my own, but I just CANT understand why otherwise rational and intelligent people view the current crop of royals as their moral or intellectual superiors! I’m not trying to be rude, but I’d love an orangeman to explain to me why he views himself as inferior to prince Charles.

  • overhere

    FUY: Aah the good old days when those Fenians knew their place

  • Sam Hanna

    I am not a fan of the OO as I don’t believe in secret societies. It is amazing that organisations that are set up for Protestants are deemed bigotted wheras those exclusively for Catholics such as Orpus Dei, Society of Jesuits, Roman Church etc are not!

    You cannot even be anything but a Romanist to get a job or become head of State at the Vatican State! Surely that is a case for the Equality Commission.

  • Shades40

    The OO have long been stoking the flames of tension before SF came along….. 1884 to be precise.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/csc/reports/rituals3.htm

  • RSR

    DaithiO,

    “So an organisation that institutionally hates catholics and catholicism and therefore bans catholics from being members is a shining beacon of inclusivity and not at all hateful?”

    The Orange Order is not about institutionally hating catholics, if you knew anything about it you should know that. Many orange men have more friends within the catholic community than their own. The image that you are seeing is one which is protrayed by members from certain parts of the country which call themselves protestants but never set their foot through the door of a church.

    The opening prayer at meetings “deliver those members of the church of rome and other non-reformed faiths from error and false doctrine”. In otherwords the orange order is trying to reach out to catholics and others of the non-reformed faith to try and get them to understand the reformed faith and convert them from their ways. Does that sound like an instituiton who “hates catholics?” To me, that sounds more like an organisation who is trying to reach out to catholics.

    Surely you can’t expect the orange order to admit catholics seeing that it is a based on the reformed faith, which the catholic church is not. Thats liking expecting the catholic church to admit protestant priests etc, unless they change their religon it is the same fundamental idea.

    This may sound secterian but its strange that DaithiO himself is saying that the orange order is secterian, surely this also make him to a secterian bigot for not having a little tolerance for the other sides traditions.

    Generally tho, a very interesting development in Magherafelt, a change in the times maybe but doesn’t mean that its good either. If people have gone off the DUP its probable that they won’t all flood back to vote UUP. May end up with a large percentage who just stay at home which is not good for the unionist side.