Stoneyford parade application compromised

A BBC report notes a police apppeal for information about an illegal parade, which reportedly took place tonight at 8pm in the Stoneyford area of Antrim, involving one band and 40 followers. Notable primarily as it occurs just as the Parades Commission was due to adjudicate on an application for a parade on the 11th July.

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  • PeaceandJustice

    As there has been a number of illegal Republican parades including ones with masked terrorists, I would expect the Parades Commission to deal with them first of all.

  • Frank Sinistra

    P&J seems blind

  • Belfast Gonzo

    This was Mark Harbinson’s band (again), I believe. The delayed adjudication by the Parades Commission should be with us later today. Click Pete’s link after noon…

    Naturally, there is only one way it can rule now, but maybe that’s what a loyalist with a history of organising illegal parades really wants.

    Basil McCrea must be ecstatic at his links with Harbinson now.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Let’s hope the people of Stoneyford are not so intimidated that they are afraid to pursue this matter.

    (7) A person who organises or takes part in a public procession-

    (a) in respect of which the requirements of this section as to notice have not been satisfied; or

    (b) which is held on a date, at a time or along a route which differs from the date, time or route specified in relation to it in the notice given under this section,

    shall be guilty of an offence.

    (8) In proceedings for an offence under subsection (7) it is a defence for the accused to prove that he did not know of, and neither suspected nor had reason to suspect, the failure to satisfy the requirements of this section or (as the case may be) the difference of date, time or route.

    (9) To the extent that an alleged offence under subsection (7) turns on a difference of date, time or route it is a defence for the accused to prove that the difference arose from-

    (a) circumstances beyond his control;

    (b) something done in compliance with conditions imposed under section 8; or

    (c) something done with the agreement of a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary not below the rank of inspector or by his direction.

    (10) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (7) shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.

    Given Harbison has a previous conviction for riotous behaviour at Drumcree he should expect the upper end of the sentencing. Time this thuggish, sectarian bully was back in gaol with his cretinous friends.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Prominent Stoneyford loyalist, Mark Harbinson, has confirmed that he has been working alongside the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) in the village…Speaking to the Andersonstown News, Basil McCrea, UUP MLA in Lagan Valley, said, “My position is that it is time that we all moved on, this is about reconciliation and bringing people with us. “Mr Butler should be aware of that considering his own background. He [Mark Harbinson] is not a party member, a lot of people help in elections and it wouldn’t be right of me to name individuals. “I do know him and he has been helpful in resolving issues in Stoneyford.”Mr Harbinson told the Andersonstown News yesterday that he had carried out election work for the UUP in the run-up to the last elections and that he has not applied to join the party. He said that this Monday’s meeting to set up a new branch of the UUP had not been organised by him but he hoped to attend.

  • McGrath

    Will the Orange Order condemn this parade?

  • Billy

    McGrath

    “Will the Orange Order condemn this parade?”

    Don’t hold your breath mate. Given their usual track record, they’ll try to blame it on Catholic residents.

  • willis

    McGrath

    Maybe not the OO, but NuDUP should be showing their law-abiding side.

  • The Penguin

    “Let’s hope the people of Stoneyford are not so intimidated that they are afraid to pursue this matter.”

    The good people of Stoneyford have long since been intimidated, sometimes violently, into fearful silence. Very few rushed to show them any support, they will hardly expect much now.

  • overhere

    P&J Seeing as you are always throwing the “whataboutary” tag at others, it is nice to see you use the same tactic now without any condemnation of the illiegal parade.

  • Glensman

    P&J

    I would ask you to condemn the parade; saying how you’re always going on about other peoples condemnation (or lack of it) of events.

  • Sod-Off

    This peace process shite has gone on long enough, sinn fein can just fuck off from now on.
    They have given the prods everything and we get nothing, the Orange Order piss on us, the RUC piss on our dead, and the Loyalist government give the tax money to loyalist only projects.

    So thank you Adams and company for making the Nationalist people look like beggars and cretins because of your mishandling of the negotiations you morons.

  • snakebrain

    P&J

    First of all?

    Given that this guy has form and is due to march again in a few weeks

    Pray tell why?

  • s

    Sod-Off

    You mean they aren’t the sole true voice of anybody with a nationalist conscience?

    Surely they aren’t a bunch of fascistic self-serving scumbags who ran a “war” that destroyed this country and utterly failed to achieve anything?

    They couldn’t possibly be so selfish as to be settling down on their nice comfortable Stormont salaries and doing their best to sweep the mess they made under the carpet could they?

    Nah, surely not…

  • The Penguin

    Sod-Off

    Well done!
    A nice, considered, well thought-out view, and very well expressed.

    Now, who was it said that all the cretins were on the loyalist side?

  • Juan

    Perhaps the same people who started this OV nonsense see merit in a bit of pot stirring and prod self-humiliation prior to the 12th,

    This should course be condemned by all right thinking Loyalist people. We cannot challenge the bigotry and segregationist attitudes of the Republican side with belligerence, we need to politely illustrate the right of other peoples to express their history and culture with openness and dignity, that a society of equals must tolerate different perspectives and not object to their incorporation or empowerment or indeed their right to expression, and that a commitment to equality is the best way to proceed in reforming their past destructive and murderously oppressive behaviour.

  • frank

    “in reforming their past destructive and murderously oppressive behaviour.”

    Juan

    John Bingham, Brian Robinson, Aubrey Reid, Joe Bratty, Basher Bates, eddie mcilwaine, Robert McConnell,Colin Craig, Noel Shaw etc…

    “express their history and culture with openness and dignity” ?????

  • Sod-Off

    All you shinner fans you have a party leadership full of stupid tramps.
    They have ruined the goal of a Republic and made us all Brits for life, you tramps I hate you more than the SAS

  • Juan

    Frank,

    I’m not sure you can assign corporate responsibility to the entire Orange tradition for oddities arising from conflict zones, Just as the honouring of Thomas Begley is repugnant (it is a vital factor in understanding the mentality of republicanism), it does not mean that all expressions of republicanism can be disbarred public platforms. although those associated with terrorism being commemorated (I stress that Republicans need to accept the reality that this activity is undertaken by a tiny minority of flute bands who come from areas subjected to atrocity and where thusly these men, perhaps legitimately, are regarded as defenders) the expressive commemoration of terrorists is less foul than actual terrorists (as opposed to their eulogists) having direct authority over the public, yet that situation is enshrined in international law and given this converse situation, isn’t it at best distasteful to suggest that public procession as a medium to come to terms with minority loyalist legacies is somehow abhorrent ?

  • Juan Kerr

    Re. Juan’s 12.34pm post.

    I’ve rarely seen someone so badly rattled on a Slugger thread before. An impressive flurry of obfuscation.

  • frank

    Juan

    John Bingham, Brian Robinson, Aubrey Reid, Joe Bratty, Basher Bates, eddie mcilwaine, Robert McConnell,Colin Craig, Noel Shaw etc…

    The above mentioned terrorists are commemorated openly by the orange order as well as paramilitary linked bands.

    ‘I stress that Republicans need to accept the reality that this activity is undertaken by a tiny minority of flute bands who come from areas subjected to atrocity and where thusly these men, perhaps legitimately, are regarded as defenders)’

    Certainly not all bands, but certainly not a tiny minority.

    To quote Feeney in the SBP

    “some flute bands hired by lodges to play at marches are in reality UDA or UVF units that use band practice in Orange halls as a cover for drilling.”

  • Cruimh

    Feeney ? As in Brian Feeney ? In the Sunday Business Provo?

    Cripes!!!!!

  • I Wonder

    Don’t know about being rattled, he just gave an extremely long sentence. Perhaps early release could be considered? 😉

  • The Penguin

    Juan

    And I’ll bet there’s you sitting thinking we’re all so impressed by your use of big words.

    BTW, by no stretch of the imagination can Stoneyford be described as a former conflict zone.
    Unless you’re thinking of the violence and intimidation that has been continually heaped upon the tiny Catholic community that resides in the area.

  • jp

    perhaps an attention span would be in order, its not the fault of republicans, believing everyone is mad but those you agree with and conform to your skewered deliberations is a key part of racism.

    What evidence does Mr. Fenny have for saying this ?

    Is it just another instance where diminutive slander is automatically believed by republicans as it confirms their savage elitism and prejudices ?

    “The above mentioned terrorists are commemorated openly by the orange order as well as paramilitary linked bands. ”

    no they are not. they are commemorated by independent Orange lodges not incorporated into the G.O.O.I.
    under your logic the Finucan centre are liable for the actions of R.S.F.

    “Certainly not all bands, but certainly not a tiny minority.” – It seems you know more than me, tell me, how many flute bands are there in Northern Ireland and how many of these can be associated with terrorist movements ?

    as an aside I have yet to see a single republican marching band that was not explicitly pro terrorist, what are your feelings on such bands and isn’t the republican movement with its countless terrorist commemoration activates (in its mainstream movement as opposed to its fringes) spreading nothing more than false indignation and humbug ?

  • PeaceandJustice

    Of course all parades should seek the proper permission first of all even though the Parades Commission is a joke and needs to be reformed.

    However, I find it hard to take Pan-Nationalists seriously on here. The spotlight is always pointed towards the Orange Order and Unionism. The naming of individuals. It’s always a case of those bad Protestants against good decent Roman Catholics.

    They have no criticism to offer of illegal Republican parades. No naming of people taking part. They have nothing to say about Sinn Fein IRA death squad members in the Government visiting Unionist areas. They have nothing to say about Unionist families getting justice after the Sinn Fein IRA killing spree. They have nothing to say about certain Roman Catholic priests who supported the Sinn Fein IRA terrorist group. They have nothing to say about Eire sheltering Republican killers etc etc.

    Perhaps Pan-Nationalists need more time to accept the new reality. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK even after the Sinn Fein IRA dirty little ‘war’ against their Protestant neighbours.

  • I Wonder

    The scattergun approach above should enter into and form part of the definition of a “troll” for future reference. Its a concept I suspect this multi-identity individual knows something about…

  • snakebrain

    Juan

    You’ve got an even more pompous prose style than I do.

  • jpeters

    sweet jesus p & J!
    I only have a look at this site to see if i can get a new perspective!

    ive no objection to you tying a subject into a wider context but what the hell does the above have to do with stoneyford last night!

    Republican parades a problem? fair enough dont like them myself; all the rest very sordid and sad but try and stick to one issue, if we stuck to the issues at hand on slugger as they came up we might actually make some progress!

  • snakebrain

    Don’t worry jpeters, he’s like this all the time

    whataboutery city

  • Frank Sinistra

    I see Harbison has make a second application for a parade on the 11th July.

    Here.

    Hopefully the Parades Commission will treat this front organisation which only has Stoneyford Pride Of The Village included on the application with the same contempt all applications from Harbison deserve.

    Calling it the Jubilee committee and using it as a backup to the shit stirring parade is a transparent attempt to have two bites of the cherry.

  • frank

    “no they are not. they are commemorated by independent Orange lodges not incorporated into the G.O.O.I.”

    jp

    The Old Boyne island Heroes lodge LOL 633 falls within the GOOI.

    To be honest does it really matter, its orangemen taking part in mainstream orange parades, commemorating murderers & terrorists. And do they really expect to be welcomed in areas were they mutililated and murdered the locals in the past.

    “It seems you know more than me, tell me, how many flute bands are there in Northern Ireland and how many of these can be associated with terrorist movements”

    I suppose you can start with the 30-40 bands who march and lay wreaths in memory of uvf murderer Brian Robinson every September on the Shankill.

  • The Penguin

    Not much interest in this debate now that it has gone “broad brush” so to speak.

    Except to say this, no one should ever cite Brian Feeney and expect to be taken seriously. He is a terribly sad, perpetually angry, hate-filled little man. No matter what function you may be at, and he’s there, notice how people tend to avoid him. Or, if they’re unable to do so, they stay in his company for the briefest possible time. Inevitably, he ends up standing alone.

    That he happens to wear a suit, pops up ocassionally on TV and on radio, and has a regular column in a newspaper, doesn’t make him any more than what he actually is.
    And that is, no better than those he constantly accuses of bigotry.

    An analyst would have a field day with wee Brian:

    “And take me again through the time the SDLP dumped you because of your, ahem, ‘strident’ opinion of people on the other side.”
    “And why, in your view, did the Community Relations Council not give you the job as chairman.”

  • lib2016

    Mick,

    Please remove post 8 for ‘ball not man’ reasons.

    Thanks in advance.

  • DJK

    How can nationalist posters on this site seriously condemn an unelected body such as the OO for commemerating anyone, terrorist or not, when SF MLA’s do the same thing almost weekly. Martina Anderson, in Derry yesterday was the latest I believe.

    Back to the Stoneyford thing. As I have said many times before, Harbison and his cronies are a cancer within the Stoneyford community. The good people, catholic and protestant need to stand up to this guy. The OO lodge in Stoneyford should be part of that if not leading it.

    For those under any misperception, Stoneyford has never been a conflict area. The only significant violent events in my memory, (I grew up there), were the murder of Adrian McGovern in front of his children and the bombing of a local brick factory. Both acts carried out by SF/IRA.

    One other lesser act of violence occurred to Adrain a few years before he was murdered. He was renting my house when I was working overseas. A certain group of young thugs lead by a certain individual, decided to break all the windows in the house, (my house), because Adrian was a catholic. No evidence of perpetrators of course but we knew.

    Adrian then moved closer to the village as he felt safer. He lived across the road from DUP councillor Cecil Calvert. He never had any problem from Mr Calvert. Ironic that a victim of the loyalist scum should end up an ultimate victim of republican scum.

  • Frank Sinistra

    DJK,

    “Back to the Stoneyford thing. As I have said many times before, Harbison and his cronies are a cancer within the Stoneyford community. The good people, catholic and protestant need to stand up to this guy. The OO lodge in Stoneyford should be part of that if not leading it.

    Laudable sentiments but I think it is unrealistic to expect local Catholics to stand up to Harbison and his rabble.

    After years of delivering intimidation and violence they have held an illegal parade designed to further intimidate.

    As it was a 40 strong mob supposedly representing the Protestant, Unionist and Loyalist community of Stoneyford in an act of blatant sectarian intimidation, led by a leading member of the local lodge, it would be unrealistic to expect the vastly outnumbered and victimised community to put their heads up against these thugs.

    It needs to be local Protestants and Unionists naming this rabble, demanding their expulsion from the OO, requesting that the UUP end connections with them and seeing them delivered to the courts.

    Until this happens the bully will reign supreme in Stoneyford and it will seem that local Protestants and Unionists while not all participating have lent their tacit approval to the actions of the mob.

    Time for the decent people to stand up in support of their neighbours, if they exist. Name the names or face the shame time for the Protestant/Unionist community of Stoneyford.

  • PeaceandJustice

    lib2016 – “Mick, Please remove post 8 for ‘ball not man’ reasons.”

    If Mick did that he would have to remove a lot of posts on Slugger by Sinn Fein IRA gang members – making accusations about people.

    ‘I Wonder’, ‘snakebrain’ and ‘frank’ – You don’t like the truth. As you are so concerned to keep on-topic (which makes a change), perhaps we could have your opinion on illegal Republican parades. But that might mean trying to be objective. Very difficult for bigoted Pan-Nationalists.

  • UFB

    The OO lodge in Stoneyford should be part of that if not leading it.
    What you mean THIS LODGE?
    “As well as the gun attacks on his home his name was found on a loyalist hit list and last month his personal details were on copies of army files discovered in Stoneyford Orange hall.
    Mr Rice said: “Two of the families whose details were in the Orange hall files have already been attacked so this decision gives me a certain amount of relief – if you can have relief living as I do under a constant threat of death.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/537804.stm

  • Billy

    Jpeters

    Don’t waste your time expecting any reasonable debate or rational analysis from “PeaceandJustice”.

    As Snakebrain says he’s “whataboutery city”.

    If there were 100 ‘loyalist’ attacks in a week and 1 Catholic child threw a stone at a Protestant – he’d be on here complaining about the Catholic.

    He’ll never change – best to see him as one of those who is being left in the past by the progress currently being made.

  • Chris Donnelly

    The illegal, intimidatory parade by Harbinson’s mob should lead to a number of developments. Firstly, the Parades Commission should ban the 11th July parade by this band. Secondly, Lisburn Council should consider withdrawing funding for the Band’s 11th night Beacon hooley at the reservoir.

    Thirdly, Basil McCrea should elaborate upon his links with Mr. Harbinson and his gang of thugs and in the process make clear his condemnation for this act of sectarian intimidation.

    And, fourthly, the PSNI should finally act against Harbinson and in the process prove they are at last willing to take on the illegal activities of loyalists in this area- their absence to do so (and that of the RUC) is the subject of a Police Ombudsman’s report at the moment which, among other things, is examining why the cops failed to arrest known loyalists implicated in illegal activities in the village during a reign of terror which involved more than 40 attacks on the property of the catholic owners of the village’s solitary- and now derelict- public house.

  • DJK

    Chris,

    I understand that in your world it is always the fault of the police not doing enough to put criminals behind bars, unless of course they are republican, in which case they are being victimised and set up. In those cases no accusations should be made without the highest level of evidence, and only after a court case has considered it, (eg Northern bank raid).

    I know that the PSNI would love to get Harbison and his ilk off the scene. the trouble is they need hard evidence of a crime that will stand up in court.

    I support all efforts to remove this cancer. I only hope that you would equally support all efforts to discover who killed Adrian, the worst of all crimes committed in Stoneyford.

    I have seen some of your efforts to respond to calls for condemation of this crime. You of course cover condemation in a general sense of all killings. I agree with the general condemation. What I want from you is a specific and definite condemation of the killing of Adrain McGovern by the PIRAb as a crime.

    I await your response.

  • DJK

    By the way Chris, the pub was owned by a protestant, (Mr Mairs).

  • PeaceandJustice

    UFB – that info about Stoneyford Orange Hall is from 1999.

    Billy – are you still trying to calm down?

    Chris Donnelly – when you last brought up the subject of Stoneyford, I posted the following:

    “Although Chris Donnelly says ‘If you’re holding out for a sackcloth moment, good luck’ will he apologise for the hurt and violence caused by his organisation in Stoneyford? What about the children of Adrian McGovern? Are they just victims of ‘war’?

    http://www.factni.co.uk/adrainmcgovern.htm
    The children were crying. I said ‘where is your mummy’ and they said ‘mummy is at work’. The little boy had called the ambulance and I called the police. The children were repeatedly saying’ daddy was shot’.

    Are you going to justify this murder Chris Donnelly?”

    Your organisation was involved in murder in Stoneyford. Yet, you fail to discuss that and prefer to stir up further division with your anti-Orange, anti-Protestant and anti-Unionist posts. A few Orange tunes annoys you more than murder.

    Simple question for Pan-Nationalists as well as the SF IRA members who are paid to post here – was it right to murder Adrian McGovern in front of his poor children and leave them to grow up without a father? Were the people who did it fighting a brave war for Ireland? Or just of bunch of low-life killers?

  • UFB

    UFB – that info about Stoneyford Orange Hall is from 1999.

    Your point being what?

  • Chris Donnelly

    DJK

    Maybe Mr Mairs owned the pub at one time, but he wasn’t the owner of the public house when it was under sustained attack- I shall refrain from posting her name.

    On the willingness of the PSNI to act, I think you’ll find even a cursory inspection of the activities of loyalists in the south-west Antrim- area over the past decade considerable questions as to why, time and time again, evidence provide was not acted upon by the cops.

    I’m not surprised you divert to the killing of Adrian McGovern as events in the past 24 hours do not fit in with your worldview. Indeed, if I threw up a killing by the British state/ loyalist paramilitaries which occured some time in the past 35 years every time we discussed contemporary happenings in any geographic part of the six counties, we’d never actually get onto discussing the topic at hand.

    P.S. I know that’ll not satisfy you, but tough.

  • Peas and Mustard

    P&J,

    If I follow your twisted logic, what you are actually saying is that sectarian intimidation is irrelevant because worse crimes or more specifically a worse crime has been committed in the past.

    It is increasingly apparent that your agenda and that of a few others posting on this site is not to engage in debate but to use negative spoiling tactics to prevent those who wish to legitimately discuss live issues, from doing so.

    Even the DUP have moved away from this strategy. Its time you wiped the drool from your keyboard and moved on with the rest of the civilised world.

    How do you type with knuckles anyway?

  • PeaceandJustice

    Peas and Mustard – “what you are actually saying is that sectarian intimidation is irrelevant because worse crimes or more specifically a worse crime has been committed in the past.”

    That’s incorrect – it’s not irrelevant. But along with others, I’ve asked Chris Donnelly to state his position on murder carried out by his organisation.

    He obviously has a great interest in Stoneyford and has lots to say about the Orange Order, Protestants and Unionists.

    Yet his silence on the murder of Adrian McGovern by his group says everything. The murder of a Roman Catholic is obviously fine in his worldview as long as his group did the killing. Yet, he goes on and on about how Roman Catholics are being intimidated. He has no credibility whatsoever.

  • Sean

    Question for every body

    Is a pan-nationalist the same as a pot-noodle?

  • Sean

    P+J
    Sooo because some one was allegedly killed by the IRA anything the OO is perfectly justified?

    Sooo because the FRU murdered Finucane anything done to the police there after was also perfectly justified?

    Semms an odd equation to me but you seem to like it!

  • Frank Sinistra

    If P&J and DJK would care to look up this topic was started by Pete Baker.

    Could you kindly take your diversionary pissing competition with Chris Donnolly somewhere else.

    This is a live current issue and your smoke and mirrors nonsense isn’t fooling anyone.

    If you don’t want to discuss the ongoing antics of Harbison and his mob don’t. Your Donnolly bashing is a tedious distraction from the facts and adds nothing to the discussion initiated by Pete.

  • frank

    jp

    You failed to respond about the 30-40 bands that commemorate sectarian murderer brian robinson in the orange order/uvf parade in September every year on the Shankill.

    Was the figure to high to start ?

    Or is it difficult to cover up the fact that almost all of them are hired and paid by orange lodges during ‘official’ marches.

    Would you like me to start with some of the smaller uvf commemorations around the place or can i move on to parades involving bands and lodges with a uda/uff association ?

  • PeaceandJustice

    frank – what have you got to say about Republican bands and their celebration of terrorist murderers? Acceptable, because the leaders of SF IRA are now in Government?

  • snakebrain

    PeaceandJustice

    “If Mick did that he would have to remove a lot of posts on Slugger by Sinn Fein IRA gang members – making accusations about people.”

    This may just be the most breathtakingly arrogant piece of hypocrisy I’ve ever seen squeezed into 25 words.

  • snakebrain

    “Question for every body

    Is a pan-nationalist the same as a pot-noodle?”

    I thought it was a loaf from the Ormeau bakery

  • DJK

    Frank,

    you should note that in all my posts on the issue raised I have been clear in my view that illegal parades should not take place and those involved should be pursued by the law. I totally support every lawfull effort to remove Harbinson and his cronies from the community. I have a particular sense of outrage about these people as it is the name of my village and my community that is being dragged through the mud by them.

    However I strongly suspect that nationalist posters on this site are using the issue to pursue a bigoted anti orange and anti protestant agenda. I wish I was wrong.

    To gauge the truth of this perception I have raised the issue of Adrian McGovern’s murder and asked for an unqualified condemnation of this crime in Stoneyford. The response has been disappointing, and reinforces my perceptions.

    In addition, I want to understand how the actions of the OO or the associated bands, in commemorating dead uvf terrorists can cause such outrage from nationalists, whilst their SF elected representatives continually pay tribute to dead ira terrorists. In fact a large number of their elected SF representatives are themselves terrorists.

    If you don’t understand how that causes us to suspect malign motives in claiming grievance against the OO, then we really can’t have a useful dialogue.

    Ask me to condemn uvf murders and I will. Ask me to condemn state collusion and other crimes and I will. No qualifications. Plain wrong and criminal.

  • Briso

    Good post DJK @ 7:24.

    As a ‘pan-nationalist’ I condemn the murder of Adrian McGovern without hesitation. It falls into the category of killing which most appalled me about the troubles, parents violently killed in front of their children. It’s the most disgusting and long-lasting crime imaginable. That, by the way, is why I have so little time for those who smear Pat Finucane. There is no need to add more hurt on to his family.

    There were a large number of such crimes during the troubles and therefore a large number of people who have been able to suppress their empathy with the human race to such a degree that they could break the door of a house down, walk into the midst of a family and blow a man’s brains out in front of them.

    While any process for dealing with the past will focus on the victims, I hope they focus also on the perpetrators, many of whom walk among us and must be tormented by their nightmares.

  • DJK

    Thanks Briso,

    we certainly can have useful dialogue. I agree with everything who have said, without hesitation.

  • Realist

    “I want to understand how the actions of the OO or the associated bands, in commemorating dead uvf terrorists can cause such outrage from nationalists, whilst their SF elected representatives continually pay tribute to dead ira terrorists. In fact a large number of their elected SF representatives are themselves terrorists”

    frank, in any of his guises, will struggle to answer that one.

    He will struggle to tell you why he doesn’t show equal outrage at organisations such as PSF,or factions within the GAA, for example, holding memorial events, naming trophies etc, after members of sectarian, republican paramilitary organisations.

    frank and his ilk are pro sectarian – to be anti sectarian would require them to denounce equally ALL such acts.

    They only denounce sectarianism from one side – therefore, they themselves are sectarian.

    frank can rhymn off the names of various members of the UVF etc who happened to be members of the OO also.

    I wonder can he rhymn off the names of the various members of PIRA who also happened to be members of PSF, or the GAA, for example?

    C’mon frank – denounce all events (organised by PSF, RSF, GAA Clubs etc) which commemorate and glorify members of republican paramilitary organisations, and I’ll take my hat off to you.

  • jpeters

    realist

    pre partition ones too?

  • Briso

    I have no time for either type of parade mentioned above, but my objections to OO and ‘opportunistic hanger-on’ parades is that they go where they are not wanted by local residents and they have refused to take on board their concerns on the basis that ‘it’s the Queen’s highway and we can go where we want!’ The same is not true of Republican parades.

  • frank

    If you bothered to look back at my postings over the past couple of weeks you will find that on a number of occasions i have stated that the orange order, or anyone else for that matter, are welcome to do whatever they like.

    The problem lies in the orange order believing that they have the right to march through communities were they have murdered local residents.

    As i stated on another thread, if republicans wanted to march up the Shankill with a banner commemorating Begley, they should be told to f**k off.(apologies for the language)

    It is the utter hypocrisy of the marching institutions, in all their guises, who talk about being a religious organisation, yet are closely allied to loyalist murderers, AND expect to be welcomed with open arms and have a god-given right to parade in communities without any opposition.

    If Sinn Fein want to march with republican bands through the centre of Carrickfergus they should be told to clear off, as it would be highly insensitive to a community that suffered at the hands of republicans in the past, just as rsf marching through the centre of Omagh would be utterly wrong.

    The orange order and their uvf tribute bands are very welcome within the unionist community, surely any normal person would go were they are welcome & and not were they would cause hurt.

    As regards sporting organisations, they can do what they like, its not my concern, although i think they should be aware of the sensitivities of those attending events, be it gealic games or football. The incident regarding Glentoran’s honour to David Ervine springs to mind, especially considering that some of those in attendance may well have suffered at the hands of the uvf in the past.

    I would be against sporting organisations holding events of a political nature, be it a Sinn Fein fund raiser in Bellaghy or an orange order event in Windsor Park.

  • I Wonder

    Totally concur with Briso’s 8-33 post above. I make no apologies for opposing bigotry and hypocrisy from wherever it emerges and can only laugh at being classed a pan Nationalist…!

    What also disgusts me are anonymous individuals who repeatedly throw the names of genuine victims into squalid nasty little disputes like this when they have no connection with the unfortunate victim nor any particular human concern for them other than to use their death as part of their arguing – on the internet, ffs.

    I am reminded of Paisley’s recent comment (as a man not unaware of Protestant suffering over the years) that many criticising his power-sharing agreement are those who lost no-one in the Troubles. How true.

  • Cruimh

    Aren’t we forgetting that republican bands had to be reined in by the Parade commission in the contentious march through Kilkeel ?

    “Sinn Fein said restrictions placed on the parade were a “calculated insult to nationalists”. ”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1867289.stm

    Let me guess – that was somehow “different” ?

  • Briso

    Posted by Cruimh on Jun 28, 2007 @ 10:28 AM
    >Let me guess – that was somehow “different” ?

    Not in my opinion.

  • kensei

    Or in mine either.

  • I Wonder

    Taking offence and giving offence is not the preserve of either Unionist or Nationalists or Republicans.

  • Billy

    Cruimh

    Personally I have no qualms with the restrictions based on the parade you mention.

    I think any impartial analysis will show that the vast majority of parades that are restricted by the PSNI are OO parades.

    This isn’t because (as the OO pitifully try to maintain) the Parades Commission are against the OO.

    It’s because the vast majority of parade applications that want to go through areas where their banners, bands etc will cause offence come from the OO.

    I am not a member of the GAA or any organisation. However, I can see that Protestants wouldn’t be happy about a Republican parade with banners/bands etc named after terrorists coming through predominantly Protestant neighbourhoods – perhaps where some failies of victims may live.

    Therefore, I have no problem with such marches being restricted or re-routed.

    However, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. My friends are all moderate Catholics like myself. However, none of us want OO parades marching through predominanatly Catholic neighbourhoods with the “F**k the Pope” bands singing deliberately offensive songs, and banners commemorating “loyalist” terrorists – there are just as likely to be relatives of innocent Catholic victims also.

    Frank is right in his post above. If a Republican march wanted to go up the Shankill or through the centre of Portadown – Unionists and the OO would be outraged – fair enough.

    Republicans aren’t stupid enough to apply for such provocative marches and make the facile argument about marching the Queen’s Highway. They know what the reaction would be.

    It is the OO who insist on continuing to apply to march through areas where their provocative presence is unwelcome. They make no effort to deal with their links with “loyalist” terrorism Then they wonder why their applications are turned down.

    The OO and their so-called “leadership” haven’t moved with the times. If they refuse to realise that their hypocrisy with regard to “loyalist” terrorism has been exposed and that the days of them marching wherever they wanted are gone, then they’ll just keep banging their head up against a brick wall.

  • Cruimh

    “I think any impartial analysis will show that the vast majority of parades that are restricted by the PSNI are OO parades.”

    That’s because there are a lot more orange parades
    Billy – but as a percentage ? Different matter entirely.

    The point I was making is that an outsider reading this blog would come away from it thinking that it’s ONLY the orange side of the fence that gets involved in this sort of thing – and for all the sanctimony of Chris, his party are JUST as tainted as any other .

    “Sinn Fein said restrictions placed on the parade were a “calculated insult to nationalists”. “

    Lot of hypocrisy in there, eh Chris ? Why don’t SF call on the AOH to abandon their provocative march ?

    For what it’s worth I think the OO is in the wrong – it’s a relic of the past that has been out-manoeuvred by Adams. Hardly surprising.
    It should call the Shinner bluff and draw it’s horns in – but I’d bet the farm that SF would still continue pushing and Orange Halls would still catch fire. The shinners NEED the orange bogeyman to keep nationalist voters supporting their donkeys. That’s why Newton Emerson’s piece was so good – OTT but with a kernel of truth. As with his wonderful “I, Bigot”.

  • Hill16FantasticView

    “Lot of hypocrisy in there, eh Chris ? Why don’t SF call on the AOH to abandon their provocative march ? ”

    Not really seeing as the march was approved by the parades commission.
    Lets not forget that the OO refused to enter talks with residents of Drumcree until a few weeks ago.
    Its only now the penny is dropping that forcing a march down a road leads to trouble.
    I can’t recall many Republican parades that tried to force themselves down a banned road. Although there were those schoolkids that had to be escorted down a loyalist street to school with abuse being hurled at them.

  • Cruimh

    Lot of hypocrisy in there, eh Chris ? Why don’t SF call on the AOH to abandon their provocative march ?

    “Not really seeing as the march was approved by the parades commission.”

    That’s a nonsense remark – as seen by SF reaction to Orange marches that got approval from the parades commission….

    “Lets not forget that the OO refused to enter talks with residents of Drumcree until a few weeks ago. ”

    That is incorect – the OO offered to meet residents – the meeting was vetoed by the non-resident Brendan Mac Connaith who insisted that they had to meet with him.

  • Briso

    Posted by Cruimh on Jun 28, 2007 @ 01:07 PM
    >That is incorect – the OO offered to meet
    >residents – the meeting was vetoed by the non-
    >resident Brendan Mac Connaith who insisted that
    >they had to meet with him.

    How did that work?

  • lib2016

    I’d like to add my voice to those criticising provocative marches by either side. I’m a bit more doubtful about criticising people for arguing their case.

    Provided people obey the Commission’s rulings, and the Commission specifically mentioned that people had done so in Kilkeel does it really matter if local politicans have disagreements about where and when marches should take place?

    If all sides agreed there wouldn’t need to be a Commission in the first place.

  • juan

    well, his reputation for shooting people in the head might have something to do with it, you might not realise it Briso but in some communities in Northern Ireland Terrorists enjoy authority over the public by virtue of the threat and practise of violence.

    I think we can all agree that Sinn Fein are hypocrites on this issue, only yesterday one of their prominent members was at an intimidating paramilitary parade with offensive emblems of terrorist organizations and aggressive paramilitary aligned bands (in this case ‘spirit of freedom’), so for nationalists to support the Sinn Fein stance on the issue is not to express their hesitation towards certain loyalist bands, something I have every sympathy with and agree its obscene to subject the victims of a group to its commemoration, but are simply giving weight to a cynical and morally baseless attempt at the degradation of their protestant neighbours, an action quite removed from publicly stated classical republican principles and something that the media complicity in and the catholic public enthusiasm for is nothing short of wilfully bigoted and persecutionary.

  • lib2016

    juan,

    You are missing the point. Unionists are welcome to march in areas where they cause no offence, as is everybody else.

    No-one expects unionists to like the same people as nationalists indeed it would be extremely odd if they did.

    Nationalists have their understandings of history and unionists have their different version(s). What we are arguing about is how to avoid offending each other while remaining free to celebrate our different truths.

    You seem to feel that your version of the truth is the only one which should be considered. Won’t happen.

  • JUAN

    lib,
    in what way has your statement have anything to do with my post ?

    Frank,
    that 40 or even 400 bands should do so, it is again a very small percentage of marching bands and, using the example of the GAA, I feel only those bands who openly dedicate their events or banners to terrorists should be penalised and only at those specific events and whilst carrying those banners, if you look at the GAA where you have a similar dynamic, some teams explicitly proterrorist some not so and a huge degree of ambivalence in between, guilt by association would render practically every aspect of cultural expression null and void. Only direct commemoration should be considered, in the question I asked you if you were aware of a proportion of pro-terror bamds to non pro-terror bands, you responded that 40 was a big number, in terms of loyalist bands, it isn’t.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DJK: “However I strongly suspect that nationalist posters on this site are using the issue to pursue a bigoted anti orange and anti protestant agenda. I wish I was wrong.”

    So,despite the fact that the nationalist and Republican posters are up in arms over something you, by your own words, admit to being at least mildly discomfited by, your tribal susupiciouns are sufficient that you distrust their motives for, in essence, agreeing with you on an event that was, if I am following the thread correctly, as plain as the glazed look on Little Ian’s face.

    DJK: “To gauge the truth of this perception I have raised the issue of Adrian McGovern’s murder and asked for an unqualified condemnation of this crime in Stoneyford. The response has been disappointing, and reinforces my perceptions.”

    IOW, you floated a wee dab of “whataboutery” into the thread, to see what happened.

    DJK: “If you don’t understand how that causes us to suspect malign motives in claiming grievance against the OO, then we really can’t have a useful dialogue.

    Ask me to condemn uvf murders and I will. Ask me to condemn state collusion and other crimes and I will. No qualifications. Plain wrong and criminal. ”

    And, yet, you suspect your neighbors motives for pointing out the Emperor has no clothes when you, yourself, realize the same thing.

  • Frank Sinistra

    The Parades Commission determination is now available via Pete’s third link:

    1. The Commission has now been informed that an illegal parade took place through Stonebridge Meadows and The Beeches on the evening of Tuesday 26th June 2007.

    2. The Commission is deeply disappointed that this incident occurred and may have a detrimental effect on community relations.

    3. The Commission notes that the original Form 11/1 was received on 17th March 2007 and a subsequent amended Form 11/1 was received on 27th June 2007. No reason was given for this late notification and the Commission is concerned that its submission may have been an attempt by the parade organiser to avoid the Commission’s condemnation of his illegal and unwelcome parade.

    The parade has been prevented from entering the two estates but considering the organiser has already held an illegal parade through them it’s of little consequence.

    I’m disgusted that the organiser of an illegal parade is given permission to organise another parade a few days later.

    We now await the PSNI and the courts actions against Harbison. I’m not holding my breath.

  • UFB

    media complicity? Catholic public enthusiasm? wilfully bigoted and persecutionary?

    Christ on a bike. Mr MOPE suffering from MOPEitis while living in MOPE city.

  • lib2016

    Juan,

    You obviously still don’t understand. Please try and concentrate.

    Your affable village bobby = my jackbooted thug

    My heroic but misguided freedom fighter = your sectarian terrorist

    We have now and will continue to have different versions of history. That is a good thing. What is not a good thing is to be daft enough to feel that only our own (mine or yours!) interpretation is valid.

    When Harbinson and friends do their thing they support my analysis and undermine yours. Your enemy is Harbinson, not the people who correctly point out that he is a creep.

  • Realist

    frank,

    “It is the utter hypocrisy of the marching institutions, in all their guises, who talk about being a religious organisation, yet are closely allied to loyalist murderers”

    You could just as easily, and justifiably, say:

    It is the utter hypocrisy of the Gaelic Athletic Association, in all their guises, who talk about being a sporting and cultural organisation, yet are closely allied to republican murderers.

    Mirror images across the divide.

    “on a number of occasions i have stated that the orange order, or anyone else for that matter, are welcome to do whatever they like”

    So the problem isn’t really sectarian killers and thugs at all – it’s just where they can and cannot go?

    You have no problems with members of sectarian paramilitary groupings per se – just where they go?

    “The orange order and their uvf tribute bands are very welcome within the unionist community”

    Not all unionists are big fans of the OO – quite probably a minority of the unionists.

    Very few would be supporters of the “modern” UVF.

    “surely any normal person would go were they are welcome & and not were they would cause hurt”

    I couldn’t agree more.

    Republican paramilitaries certainly caused plenty of hurt within the nationalist/republican community.

    Loyalist paramilitaries caused plenty of hurt within the unionist/loyalist community.

    “I would be against sporting organisations holding events of a political nature”

    Good man.

    You must be anti Maze too. 🙂

  • lib2016

    Realist,

    We live under a regime which took us into an illegal war causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. People do things I disapprove of – it’s tough but that’s life.

    If unionists want to make eijits of themselves it’s not a problem for me, if a mass murderer gets a job as a ‘Peace Envoy’ I just don’t care, and most emphatically of all – history will give it’s verdict on the Provvies, not a lot of sectarian fascists with a chip on their shoulder.

    For the present I’ll accept Mandela’s verdict and he described them as a ‘fraternal’ group. Then again the Brits called him a terrorist also.

  • DJK

    Dread C

    alas you don’t seem to be following the thread at all.

    there is a degree in everything. It’s important. How many times during the dark days did republican commentators complain about the perceived lack of condemation of loyalist atrocities by unionist politicians. That of course despite the fact that republicans don’t actually beleive in the politics of condemnation.

    What I see is a huge amount of debate and outrage over harbinson and his cronies. Yes I agree it is obscene and it needs to be dealt with. Personally I would prefer it if the protestant community in Stoneyford took the initative and stand shoulder to shoulder with their catholic neighbours. I would equally like to see soem evidence from the posters on this site that they are as committed to recognising and condemn the actions of those thugs from their own community. Plenty of nationalists do. You, Chris and others don’t appear to fall into that camp. You have no credibility in my eyes.

    Rather than recognise the real, (perhaps invalid), perceptions of people like me who would happily stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone under threat, you choose to paint me as the “bad guy” driven by tribalism.

    I live overseas currently. Attitudes like yours and morons like Harbinson, don’t make return particularily attractive. Of course that might suit you. One less prod in the great demographic contest. The flaw is that it is the people like Harbinson that will stay whilst I go.

    I Wonder

    “What also disgusts me are anonymous individuals who repeatedly throw the names of genuine victims into squalid nasty little disputes like this when they have no connection with the unfortunate victim nor any particular human concern for them other than to use their death as part of their arguing – on the internet, ffs.”

    I hope this is not directed at me as the one who raised the issue of Adrain McGovern’s murder. If you had read my previous posts, you would know that I am from Stoneyford and that I knew Adrian well. We lived 10 yards from each other.

    It remains the greatest crime in the village and one that notable republican posters find hard to condemn.

  • Sean

    DJK
    In your opinion it is the greatest crime in the village but that is neither here nor there.

    You seem to want to use it for justification for the OO and its paramilitary leader to go wander about the village where ever they want and cause what ever terror they choose

    We (hope the others don’t mind) do not see it as ample justification for anything.

    I will declare that the murderer of Adrian is a coward and it was a heinous crime! That does not justify the OO, PERIOD.

  • DJK

    Sean

    read my posts. I have been totally at one with those that object to the illegal parade. I have expressed my view of harbinson and his cronies as a cancer in the village. I have never and will never use anything to justify them.

    Acknowledge this and we move forward.

  • Sean

    Then why the continual attempts at brow beating us about Adrian.

    As far as I know these 2 incidents are completely unrelated

    The ones that killed him are scum, but how many years ago was that? We are talking about right here right now.