Protestants want to talk about parades, north and south…

TWO parades, both with a history of violence, both with loyalists seeking talks about their future. Protestant victims’ group FAIR is meeting the Garda Commissioner in Dublin later this morning to discuss another Love Ulster parade – you’ll remember the republican riots that disrupted the last attempt to march in Dublin. Meanwhile, Portadown Orangemen have said they’re (finally) ready to meet their opponents, in order to try to secure a march from Drumcree Church down the Garvaghy Road. BBC clip here. The Order says its only pre-condition to sitting down in a room with those opposed to their parade is an independent chairman. However, the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition says it has major doubts over the Orangemen’s willingness to talk, claiming the Order hasn’t acknowledged that a possible outcome of any dialogue might be that there is still no parade.

  • McClafferty

    “British Seek To Block Inquiries”, June 14, 2007 in the Irish Voice. Senior civil servant Maurice Hayes claimed “millions of pounds used to fund a public inquiry into the British Army’s shooting dead of 14 civilians on Bloody Sunday could have been better spent in other ways and that a lot of people in Northern Ireland are particularly concerned the police would have enough resources to deal with the present crime challenges facing the police service here.” He goes on to say “there comes a point when political archaeology doesn’t make terribly much sense and he thinks there is a lot to be said for Northern Ireland drawing a line”.

    I’d like Maurice Hayes to explain where he thinks that “drawn line” should begin and end? Will that line also pertain to Irish Republicans like Gerry McGeough, arrested on trumped-up charges dating back as far as 25 years ago, or Roisin McAliskey? What sense and abuse of funds does it make in pursing a case against either Irish Republican especially when they have failed to produce any concrete evidence pertaining to these charges over the years?

    Maurice Hayes’ statement only goes to prove that when it comes to Irish justice there remains a double standard. One standard for the British government and RUC and one for Irish Republicans. Why don’t they practice what they preach?

  • Diluted Orange

    [i]I’d like Maurice Hayes to explain where he thinks that “drawn line” should begin and end? Will that line also pertain to Irish Republicans like Gerry McGeough, arrested on trumped-up charges dating back as far as 25 years ago, or Roisin McAliskey?[/i]

    So if you committed a crime 25 years or more ago it then ceases to be a crime anymore?

    [i]Maurice Hayes’ statement only goes to prove that when it comes to Irish justice there remains a double standard. One standard for the British government and RUC and one for Irish Republicans. Why don’t they practice what they preach?[/i]

    There certainly is – most Irish Republicans who were jailed for their actions whilst in the IRA have got off scot-free after being released despite committing mass murder. Activities such as robbing banks in recent years have also gone unpunished. Take the RUC officers you speak of; the ones who died at the hands of the IRA are still dead and the ones who got limbs blown off have still got their limbs blown off while the perpetrators of these atrocities walk around free.

    Fair? Don’t talk to me about fair. What actions of the British government and the RUC do you speak of? Let me guess ‘collusion’? … zzz

  • Truth & Justice

    I think it is the right desision to go and talk face to face lets call the residents bluff.

  • RSR

    A step too far by Portadown if you ask me. Having to sit down and basicly beg with resident groups that more than likely contain terrorists (former or current) is too high a price to ask to get down a strech of road.
    They should have walked away from it when it was first banned with their heads held high, but unfortunately they weren’t intelligent enough to realise that it was just another republican trap, with the ensuing violence left many normal orange men ashamed of what had happened.
    If the price to pay is having to ask people who murdered members of the institution if they can walk down a piece of road then they can keep their piece of road.

  • parcifal

    just don’t rain on my parade ok 🙂

  • ben

    The Gardai should arrest these people when they cross the border, detain them, and deport them to London. By Ryanair.

    If it’s a victims’ parade, why is it called “Love Ulster”? If it’s a “Love Ulster” parade, why do they want to have it in Leinster? If it’s a cynical exercise in sectarian rabble-rous… oh, I see what they’re doing.

  • Oilibhear Chromaill

    More unionist mopery, cheerled by Belfast Gonzo and his skewed introduction. It wasn’t a republican riot in Dublin, BG, it was a riot and if republicans were involved, they don’t deserve to be called republicans.

    As far as Truth and Justice, RSR are concerned, they should remember that the only people killed in relation to Drumcree were killed by loyalist supporters of the Garvaghy Road ‘parade’. Michael McGoldrick, Elizabeth O’Neill and others. So before they go talking about ‘terrorists’ among the ranks of the residents, perhaps they should look closer to home first.

    If Willie Frazer and his motley crew want to march in our capital city, they’re welcome. They should be accorded every courtesy but they should also recognise that it is the Dublin citizenry’s perfect right to ignore them completely. Perhaps while they’re down in the capital, they might stop off at the monument to the victims of the 1974 Dublin/Monaghan bombing and lay a wreath there, given that they’re all about recognising the rights of victims and so on….

  • Billy

    Oilibhear Chromaill

    I agree – the rioters at the “Love Ulster” parade were just thugs and not representative of the population.

    Frazer’s pathetic showing in the Assembly election showed him up for the irrelevance that he is. The riot at the first parade simply gave him publicity.

    I agree that Frazer and FAIR should be allowed to parade. However, I would like to see him interviewed on RTE and explain why:

    He and his organisation commemorate Robert McConnell – a “loyalist” terrorist and sectarian murderer of innocent Catholics – as an “innocent victim”.

    What he thinks about the PSNI refusing him a gun permit because of his links with “loyalist” paramilitaries. This decision was upheld in the NI High Court when Frazer challenged it.

    Why he stated live on Radio Ulster that the “loyalist” terrorists released under the GFA should never have been jailed in the first place.

    Why he called arch sectarian murderer and bigot Billy Wright “a decent man and a good friend.”

    Why known UDA figures were clearly visible in the first “Love Ulster” parade.

    Frazer isn’t the sharpest tool in the box by a long chalk. Any half decent interviewer can show him and his organisation up by questioning him about the issues above and his general track record.

    It’s easy to see that he and Fair are very selective about the religion and background of the “innocent” victims they claim to care about.

  • What is the use of having these parades at all? What is the good of it? Seems to really upset lots of folks.

  • Ginfizz

    FAIR seem to me more interested in vengance than healing. Compare their website with SAVER/NAVER – I think its fairly clear which one is a genuine victims group.

  • Ginfizz

    BTW, I though the Garvaghy Road Womens Poetry Collective was fabricated by Newton Emerson – I was wrong! LOL!!

  • I Wonder
  • jaffa

    Ginfizz,

    Thanks for the link to SAVER/NAVER. Saw this on the home page.

    “Our Alternative Therapist has returned from America with a level 2 in Colonic Irrigation. She has installed the lastest technology of colonic machine called LIBBE machine.”

    Better out than in?

  • veloso

    “you’ll remember the republican riots”

    No, Belfast Gonzo, I don’t remember the ‘republican riots’. I do recall the inner city Dublin scumbags who rioted, attacking bystanders (including punching a pregnant woman in the stomach) and – accompanied by anti-capitalist agitators and opportunist thieves – looted shops and businesses. But why let the truth get in the way of another Unionist mope about victimhood at the hands of ‘republicans’. Rather than linking to the British state broadcaster’s report on the event, there is an indepth account of the Dublin riots – with numerous sources – on Wikipedia. I well remember watching a BBC TV news report with footage of (clearly shaken) elderly marchers disembarking their bus after returning home. I also remember watching an RTE TV news report showing a Loyalist marching band, complete with flags and regalia, disembarking their bus after arriving in Dublin. A case of selective editing to suit particular audiences? I don’t think I need ask which image you would prefer to remember from the day, but do you really – honestly – believe that represents the full truth of the event?

  • Have any of you had a butcher’s at Willy Frazer’s website? For a man who would have us believe he is under mortal threat from the South Armagh IRA, he seems to spend a lot of time in places like Crossmaglen and Cullyhanna being photographed outside IRA monuments.

    Oh, and yes, of course there was no republican riot because republicans have never done anything bad ever and everything was all the fault of eeeevil unionists and the presence of the Irps and RSF in Dublin last year didn’t inflame anything and anyone who says otherwise is a unionist MOPE. Of course.

  • kensei

    “Oh, and yes, of course there was no republican riot because republicans have never done anything bad ever and everything was all the fault of eeeevil unionists and the presence of the Irps and RSF in Dublin last year didn’t inflame anything and anyone who says otherwise is a unionist MOPE. Of course.”

    Perhaps “dissident republican” might be a more accurate term?

  • Perhaps “dissident republican” might be a more accurate term?

    Sure, but if Willie Frazer is a ‘unionist’ then you can’t complain when the Irps are described as ‘republicans’. I don’t think anyone said that SF or the (P)IRA or any group associated with them was involved.

    Also, it wasn’t just a few knackers from Sean McDermott Street rioting; where did the petrol bombs come from? Its the presence of petrol bombs that argues that there were extremist groups out to use the presence of a unionist parade in Dublin as a rationale for violence, and that there was a large degree of premeditation behind the violence.

    Local hoods may have joined in once things kicked off but had there been no premeditation from republican extremist micro-groups, I very much doubt there would have been any trouble.

  • Cromwell

    “We have decided afterwards that this riot was not a republican riot because republicans rioting did some non-republican stuff, that republicans shouldnt do when rioting, such as hit people & smash things. These people involved ceased to be ,by definition, republicans for the duration of the riot.”

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Perhaps “dissident republican” might be a more accurate term?

    For Shinners or Irps?

  • Billy

    Sammy

    I never claimed that there was no riot. It was totally wrong and should never have happened.

    I have sympathy for anyone who has lost family in the troubles and total respect for those that have maintained a positive and impartial outlook – Alan McBride being a perfect example.

    Frazer is not such a man. I sympathise with his loss (although he is only 1 of many). However, he is a bitter man whose hypocritical attitude to the innocent Catholic victims of “loyalist” violence is breathtaking.

    As I said, Frazer and his organiastion should be allowed to march peacefully. However, it is clear for any open minded person to see what he is and who his organisation cares about (and who they don’t!).

    Those who try and portray him as a genuine representative of innocent victims regardless of religion/background are guilty of MOPERY of the highest order.

  • cladycowboy

    “We have decided afterwards that this riot was not a republican riot because republicans rioting did some non-republican stuff, that republicans shouldnt do when rioting, such as hit people & smash things. These people involved ceased to be ,by definition, republicans for the duration of the riot.”

    ‘Republicans’ having a go at Monarchists, which side were you cheering on, eh Cromwell? 🙂

  • Cromwell

    Billy,

    I dont think you have any right to denigrate Willy Frazers loss, maybe you should try & walk in his shoes.

    If I was Willy, after what he, his family & his community have been through I dare say I’d be pretty bitter & have a hard time seeing things from anyone elses point of view.

    I note your posts are all pretty strong on allegations & show a distinct lack of impartiallity, so are you any less bitter yourself? & do you have any reason to be so?

  • Ginfizz

    jaffa

    Fair enough it’s quite funny, but I ask you which is more conducive of a genuine victims group – alternative therapy sessions, youth groups, counselling services or flute band parades and a website with articles such as “ten reasons why Martin McGuinness is a tout”?

    SAVER/NAVER is in my view a model of best practice.

  • Ginfizz

    Cromwell

    Noone should ever seek to denigrate William Frazer as a person or his very great loss. Love Ulster however, is a total and utter joke and an embarrassment to most Unionists. You cannot demand rights for victims, while at the same time having Jackie McDonald unloading news sheets for you.

  • plumber

    Why do these azz-holes aways leave the parades to the last minute. They know as well as there is a head on their body the answer will be NO. One wonders what they have been doing from last year?

  • Cromwell

    Ginfizz,

    I dont have a lot of time for Love Ulster myself, total & utter joke is a bit strong, as for Jackie McDonald, he seems good enough to be best pals with a certain Irish President! You cannot condemn protestants as nazis while chumming around with UDA commanders!
    I’ll you what though the rally showed certain “not republicans for the duration of the riot” for what they are.

  • doug

    If love ulster (fair) is a victims group, why are terrorists involved ??

  • Billy

    Cromwell

    I am not bitter. I pointed out the respect that I have for Alan McBride.

    I did not denigrate Frazer’s loss. However, do you think that gives him the right to commemorate sectarian murderer Robert McConnell as an innocent victim?

    What about that comment that “loyalist” terrorists should never have been jailed in the first place?

    If a Catholic who had lost family to “loyalist” terrorists came out and said that Republican terrorists should never have been jailed, people like you would be on this site calling them hypocrites.

    I think marching to commemorate the victims of terrorism (or Protestant victims of republican terrorism to be exact) while having high profile members of a “Loyalist” terror group in your march just might be viewed as hypocrisy.

    I do not have (and have never had) time for terrorism for any quarter. I admire anyone with the same outlook. I don’t like hypocrites like Frazer who criticise terrorism from Republicans but don’t seem to be too concerned about the victims of Loyalist terrorism.

    I am sorry for anyone who has lost family in the troubles. However, it doesn’t give them the right to makes excuses for terrorists.

  • Ian

    I just hope that Raymond McCord Snr gathers a load of relatives of Protestant victims of loyalist killings, and goes down to Dublin for a counter-protest.

  • Ginfizz

    Cromwell

    Is it really a bit strong? Tell me, what exactly is the point of Love Ulster? What do they want to achieve? What are their aims? No vision. No scruples. No chance!

    Just because Mary McAleese chooses to stoop to have dealings with Jackie McDonald, doesn’t mean that people who claim to be highlighting conscerns about victims of the conflict here can do likewise.

    It stinks of hypocrisy and undermined the whole exercise from Day 1.

  • mango

    Willie Frazier FAIR is not doing any favours for Victims of The Troubes by these marches.
    I agree that NI Victims should be brought to the Irish Government. They were as much players in The Troubles as the British, Republicans, Loyalists. They have also ignored Victims issues in the republic of Ireland.

    Willie this is not the way to go.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Isn’t the real story here that – after telling us for a decade that it was all and only about getting the Orangies to talk face to face- now the (apparently not retired after all) McKenna says that even that’s not enough? They’ve got to prove they’re sincere- as defined by him!

  • Cromwell

    Billy,

    As I said earlier I’m not a fan, but is his grouping any different than the various republican groups out there? At least one of which cynically latches on to a token prod victim in order to claim cross community kudos.

    I’d also like to point out that theres a lot of speculation about Robert McConnell, he was never convicted of anything, so your argument doesnt stack up.

    Ian,

    Why would Raymond McCord do that?

    Ginfizz,

    I wonder how the victims of UDA violence feel about Mary McAleese meeting Jackie McD.

    Of course it stinks of hypocrisy but theres a lot of it about isnt there?

  • Ian

    Cromwell:

    “Why would Raymond McCord do that?”

    To highlight victims of loyalist violence, some perpetrated by those who are Frazer’s fellow travellers in Love Ulster.

    You might as well ask, why did he stand in the Assembly elections this year?

  • Cromwell

    Ian,

    Do you honestly think Raymond McCord has any affinity with republican victims of loyalist violence.

  • Ian

    “Do you honestly think Raymond McCord has any affinity with republican victims of loyalist violence.”

    I’m not talking about Republican victims of loyalist violence. I’m talking about members of the Unionist community who were victims of loyalist violence. Such as Raymond McCord Jnr.

    The loyalist groups, by tagging along with this Love Ulster charade, are positioning themselves as defenders of the Unionist people. If McCord Snr were to mount a protest it would highlight the fallacy of this claim.

  • why did he stand in the Assembly elections this year?

    To provide us all with a bit of comic relief.

  • Ian

    Sammy, I thought that was Bob McCartney’s role?

  • Ginfizz

    Cromwell

    Its not only UDA victims who find McAleese meeting McDonald to be totally wrong.

    Darth

    Spot on as ever. He gurns for the best part of fifteen years demanding fac-to-face dialogue and when its offered to him he balks at it. I wonder why this is? Perhaps he fears the Orangemen doing in Portadown what the Apprentice Boys did in Londonderry? It will be very interesting to observe how SF handle these issues over the coming weeks. In the past, it suited their agenda to whip up problems over parades, I don’t think it does so now.

    I have been informed that Gerard Rice has let it be known that if a parade gets down the Ormeau Road that’s him splitting from the Shinners and perhaps trying a solo run at the council elections.

    We live in interesting times.

  • Cromwell

    How come McKennas still there anyway? I thought the Shinners would’ve ousted him by now. They really are getting very shoddy.

  • Billy

    Cromwell

    I’m not a Sinn Fein supporter or voter. However, I can see what the resident’s coalition is saying.

    I believe that there should be meaningful dialogue and I hope that there is.

    The residents have said that, from their perspective, everything is open for discussion and all outcomes are possible.

    From what I have read, the OO attitude seems to be that the only possible outcome is a march and that they are only meeting the residents because it has FINALLY dawned on them that they will never get down Garvaghy road if they don’t.

    If the OO are prepared to really negotiate and make concessions (as should the residents), then I believe and hope that a march is possible.

    However, if the OO stance is simply a demand that they be allowed to march the “Queen’s highway” and that’s it – no agreement will be reached.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that the OO may be planning to do this and then claim that, having met the residents, they still aren’t allowed to march.

    I’m afraid that the OO actions and negative publicity (Drumcree, Billy Wright, the Quinn children, the Whiterock riots, attacking the police, Dawson Baillie etc) over the last 10 years have given people all over the UK a real insight into the mindset and attitudes of some of their members and supporters. Despite their frankly pitiful attempts at positive PR, their public “image” is woeful and their spokesmen pathetic.

    I lived in London for many years and I can tell you that very few people take an interest in NI. However, among the Britsh people who take a passing interest, the general opinion of the OO is that it is a sectarian organisation and an anachronism in the 21st century.

    If the OO try this ploy, it won’t work. People are not that easily fooled, they will clearly see that any pretend movement on dialogue by the OO is only a publicity stunt and that they never had any real intention of negotiating.

    As I said, I really hope that there is meaningful dialogue and a positive outcome. However, as with any negotiation, that requires both sides to discuss everything and be prepared to compromise.

    The OO need to make it clear that, like the residents, they are going in with an open mind and some flexibility. If they are just going to sit there and repeat the same demands they have frequently made in public with no willingness to compromise, then they will just get the same result they have gotten in the past.

  • Pounder

    So when Sinn Fein appoint an outreach officer to Unionists they should welcome her with open arms and no questions but when the OO does make a step towards the residents group there has to be pre-conditions? The irony, it burns.

  • Realist

    “If they are just going to sit there and repeat the same demands they have frequently made in public with no willingness to compromise, then they will just get the same result they have gotten in the past”

    The OO seem to me to be the ONLY party to the dispute who have tabled countless compromises.

    McKenna’s position remains absolute and inflexible – “No Orange feet on the Garvaghy Road”

    Anyone care to share with us any compromises McKenna’s people have tabled?

  • jim

    ‘The OO seem to me to be the ONLY party to the dispute who have tabled countless compromises.’

    A bit late for the kids of Michael McGoldrick or the quinn children or the pensioner lady in Portadown.

    The orange order lost all credibility with its open support for Billy Wright and loyalist murderers during the Drumcree protests. They refused to talk to Brendan McKenna yet Harold Gracey stood on a platform supporting Billy Wright.

    Why do the order only decide to talk a few weeks before the parade every year and then fall silent for the rest of the year, surely if they were willing to compromise they would have responded to the residents letter in March 07.

  • Billy

    Realist

    “The OO seem to me to be the ONLY party to the dispute who have tabled countless compromises.”

    Yeah – right! The only “demand” that the residents group has is that the OO have the common decency to speak directly to the people whose neighbourhood they were parading through.

    It has taken the OO 10 years to get round to that.

    Also, the position of the residents is that all outcomes are possible – including a parade. It is the OO who had pre-conditions – the only possible outcome is a parade. Clearly they have difficulty with the meaning of the terms negotiate and compromise.

    Pounder

    The “pre-condition” on the OO (and the residents) is that they are prepared to discuss everything and that there is room for negotiation/compromose. The residents have made it clear that they will meet that – the OO have not.

    If the OO stance is that they will turn up, repeat the same tired old demands and walk out if they are not met in full, it is rather a waste of time wouldn’t you say?

    In my business, if someone asked me to a meeting and behaved like that, I’d be annoyed at my valuable time being wasted and at their stupidity for thinking that such tactics would yield results.

    All anyone is asking for is an up-front public commitment from the OO that they are willing to genuinely discuss the issues of concern and that there is room for negotiation/compromise.

    If they can’t provide that, it will be obvious that they are simply going through the motions and wasting everyone’s time.

  • Sammy, I thought that was Bob McCartney’s role?

    Sure you can never have enough comedy. There was also the magic moment of seeing RSF being beaten by the Stickies in West Belfast.

  • Realist

    jim,

    “A bit late”

    No compromise from Garvaghy Road residents then?

    Do you need reminded of the compromises tabled by Portadown District LOL over the years of this dispute?

    Billy,

    “Also, the position of the residents is that all outcomes are possible”

    Good.

    Maybe the two parties will now engage in direct talks to solve the dispute.

    Great that McKenna’s stance has changed from “No Orange feet….” to “Maybe Orange feet…”

  • reg

    ‘Do you need reminded of the compromises tabled by Portadown District LOL over the years of this dispute?’

    Yeah, let us down the road or our mate Billy will burn you all to death with a slurry tank full of petrol.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Frig me I thought he was joking Reg hence the ‘LOL’, pardon my faux stupidity in not knowing it meant something else. Still find the point funny though.

  • Billy

    Realist

    As far as I am aware, Mr Mac Cionnaith didn’t simply say “No Orange Feet” on the Garvaghy Road. He said that the residents were opposed to any further parades until the OO had the decency and courage to meet the residents (whose streets they are marching through) and discuss contentious issues with them.

    Frankly, I can’t see why any reasonable organisation would have a problem with that but it’s taken the OO 10 years to do so.

    Do you really think that anyone is fooled by the false “compromises” that the OO have offered. If you do, I think you’re in a small minority.

    I think people know what the OO have offered to this situation over the years – Gracy standing beside Billy Wright (who also met with other senior Portadown OO representatives). We also had Adair and Fulton featuring prominently, the attacks on the police, riting, looting, and the murders of the poor Quinn children and Michael McGoldrick.

    I hope that genuine talks can now take place and a compromise reached that allows the OO to parade. That depends on whether the OO strategy extends further than arrogantly demanding their “right” to march the “Queen’s Highway”.

    However, assuming they are genuine, I truly welcome their decision to directly engage with the residents. It’s just a pity they didn’t have the guts/decency to do this 10 years ago – then a lot of the events listed above could have been avoided.

  • gareth mccord

    sammy morse you are a sick and very sad little man if you think any of what our family does is comical!!
    swings and round-a-bouts?

  • sammy morse you are a sick and very sad little man if you think any of what our family does is comical!!

    Gareth… I was talking about Willie Frazer, not your Da.

    Don’t be so hypersensitive.

  • Realist

    “Do you really think that anyone is fooled by the false “compromises” that the OO have offered”

    What exactly was “false” about them Billy?

    How can you bluff the sound of a single drumbeat, for example?

    “As far as I am aware, Mr Mac Cionnaith didn’t simply say “No Orange Feet” on the Garvaghy Road”

    Not see the posters then?

    McKenna and his “comrades”(ahem) could do with looking at the national flag they claim allegiance to.

    PS. What was McKenna convicted of during his contribution to the conflict?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    That’s a few times that you have gone on about the Irish national flag. I could be flippant and welcome your acknowledgement of it as your national flag, but what would be the point. Does the green in the national flag mean that a load of Nationalist bigots can go about intimidating in a sectarian manner a whole section of community and when Unionists/Prods wherever they may be dare to complain they could point to the green bit of the flag? Stuff and nonsense!

    You also go on repeatedly about compromises from the OO over the years, ok I’ve stopped laughing now. Are you going to further underline my thoughts of you as a pedant, or will you outline these compromises with a degree of credulity?

    The residents groups can choose the man in the moon to represent them, it’s not their behaviour that is the issue no matter how many attempts are made to portray it so.

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    “I could be flippant and welcome your acknowledgement of it as your national flag, but what would be the point”

    Er – it is not, and never will be, my national flag.

    It is the flag that McKenna and his “Concerned Residents” claim allegiance to. Put simply, McKenna doesn’t want peace with the Orange “children of the nation”.

    “Does the green in the national flag mean that a load of Nationalist bigots can go about intimidating in a sectarian manner a whole section of community?”

    No.

    “Are you going to further underline my thoughts of you as a pedant, or will you outline these compromises with a degree of credulity?”

    They are a matter of public record.

    Is the flag of the Irish Republic so worthless now, that it’s so called upholders cannot stand the thought of some orange “children of the nation” marching in dignity to the sound of hymns being played on a Lords Day, anywhere they choose on the island of Ireland?

    Perhaps those Orange “children” are not “cherished equally” by McKenna?

    Makes a mockery of republicanism (as espoused by McKenna and his “comrades”) don’t you think?

    Building An Ireland Of Equals.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Throwing up a host of epithets does not disguise the disingenuous way that you are going about your business here.

    >>orange “children of the nation” marching in dignity to the sound of hymns being played on a Lords Day, anywhere they choose on the island of Ireland?< >“Are you going to further underline my thoughts of you as a pedant, or will you outline these compromises with a degree of credulity?”

    They are a matter of public record.< >Building An Ireland Of Equals.<

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    “We are speaking of those Orange “children of the nation” that you speak of indulging in behaviour that seeks to intimidate a whole section of the community”

    Not on the Garvaghy Road.

    Does a couple of hundred Orangemen, marching solemnly in a church parade down a road, to the sound of hymns being played by an Accordian Band, “intimidate” the people of the Garvaghy Road?

    Tell you what – if it does, there is no prospect whatsoever of a truly “united” Ireland…ever.

    “Would you care to tell us of these compromises, and just how they would have made the situation better”

    What is our starting point, before we discuss “better”?

    Detail the problems, and we’ll talk about “better”.

    “Take away the nonsense and you have game set and match”

    What “nonsense”?

    What do you want “taken away”?

    “If only you were serious Realist”

    Oh, I am. I fully support the building of an “Ireland of Equals”.

  • Prince Eoghan

    As I first thought Realist. This is just an abstract game of pedantry with you. And I’d rather cut my fingers off than go through your whole repertoire, which is clearly aimed at sucking the life out of anyone stupid enough to engage with you. ie. me!

    Still I’m sure there is no harm in being an apologist for the supremacist OO in your eyes. Perhaps if the shoe was on the other foot you may well be ready to empathise with ordinary people going about their business without feeling frightened or intimidated.

    I wish you well in your travails!

  • ciaran

    I was living in lurgan in the 70s and 80s when the orange men took over the town and paraded every year. The army and ruc barracaided the catholic areas of the town to stop anyone going near the parades. This lasted for days. On the rare occassion when catholics tried to hold a corpus christi parade or a civil rights march in the town they were attacked by loyalist mods supported by the ruc. This is the reason the residents of places like the garvaghy rd do not want these parades in their area.If the order wants to go down these roads then they have a lot of fences to mend.I am not bitter towards the order but if they had any sense of decency they would keep their parades in their own areas. They don’t even need to use the garvaghy road they have another route they can use.

  • poodler

    ‘Still I’m sure there is no harm in being an apologist for the supremacist OO in your eyes.’

    Maybe the orange order will give realist an award for putting forward such a strong case for them 🙂

    The Basher Bates award for hypocricy goes to..

  • gareth mccord

    sammy lay of the drink and concentrate,
    ian was not talking about frazer?

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    To clarify, I am not a supporter of the Orange Order per se. They have many, many faults.

    The Portadown dispute is all about two sets of bigots.

    McKenna is every bit the bigot that he labels others.

    Looking in from the outside, it is pretty clear to me who has tried to compromise.

    The white stripe doesn’t register with McKenna.

    The bit that doesn’t register is that the OO (and their supporters) are the people that McKenna claims he wishes to be “united” with.

    If he truly wished to be “united” with them, he would be encouraging the Garvaghy Road residents to applaud the marchers (their fellow children of the nation) down the road.

    Do hymns “intimidate” nationalists? You didn’t answer.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Realist

    I have already wished you well in your technovampiry. Dangling me a carrot in the form of a hint of meaningful discussion is too late, you had your chance.

    Take your disingenious discourse elsewhere. I value my fingers too much to have to saw them off to stop me replying my frustrations to someone who totally lacks empathy and is an apologist for sectarian bigotry.

  • Billy

    Realist

    Do hymns “intimidate” nationalists?

    No, but sharing platforms with known “loyalist” terrorist murderers does? The refusal to unreservedly condemn these “loyalist” terrorist attacks on innocent Catholics does.

    Rioting and shooting including attacking the police does?

    Refusing to take action against members who are members and/or supporters of “loyalist” terrorist organisations does?

    Allowing OO lodges to parade year after year with banners and bands commemorating “loyalist” terrorists does?

    The Drumcree related murder of innocent Catholics does?

    I think most Catholic feel intimitated by an organisation whose whole “raison d’etre” is anti-Catholicism and who have continually refused to take any vaguely meaningful action to distance itself from “loyalist” terrorism.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    gareth

    I thought sammy had referred to yor father too, but reading the posts again, I can see how our confusion arose. Don’t think sammy would’ve subsequently said he was referring to Frazer and not meant it, since Willie fits the bill better for what he was saying.

    Sometimes, due to the nature of this medium, things aren’t immediately clear.

  • frank

    ‘Do hymns “intimidate” nationalists? You didn’t answer.’

    I wonder did the ‘many’ loyalist paramilitaries, who were and are mmbers of the orange order, sing hymns before slaughtering their neighbours with meat cleavers ?

  • Realist

    Billy,

    When the shoe is on the other foot, it doesn’t seem to bother some republicans.

    For example, it doesn’t seem to bother republicans when the GAA glorify republican terrorists by naming trophies after them.

    It didn’t seem to bother republicans when members of the security forces were banned from the GAA, but no action was ever taken to ban members of illegal republican paramilitary organisations.

    It doesn’t seem to bother republicans that flute bands named after deceased republican paramilitary organisations regularly participate in their marches.

    It doesn’t seem to bother republicans when riots are started at Ardoyne, in protest at Loyal Order members walking shared space.

    Like it or not the Orange Order and what they commemorate form an integral piece of the Irish history jigsaw.

    Bertie Ahern did more for Irish “unity” when he accompanied Dr No the the Boyne site recently, than any of the republican(sic) keyboard warriers on here – they simply ensure that Ireland will never be truly “united”.

    The orange tradition is represented equally on the national flag of the Irish Republic – maybe, so called, republicans will soon treat those of that tradition equally.

    As I said, as an organisation they have many serious faults that they need to be addressing – you have listed some of them.

    Price Eoghan,

    “an apologist for sectarian bigotry”

    Deary me!

    Why? Because I don’t agree with you?

    I detest sectarian bigotry – whether it comes from McKenna or members of the OO.

    In an Ireland Of Equals, a couple of hundred Orangemen would be able to walk down any road, peacefully and sombrely, accompanied by an Accordian Band playing hymns.

  • poodler

    realist, you really are fixated with Ireland’s national flag.Perhaps its because you don’t have one.

    ‘For example, it doesn’t seem to bother republicans when the GAA glorify republican terrorists by naming trophies after them.’

    Whatabout, Whatabout..The IFA commemorating uvf/pup leader with a minutes silence and flying a union jack at half mast in his honour or the IFA allowing the dup onto the pitch during irish league games to look for votes.

    ‘It doesn’t seem to bother republicans that flute bands named after deceased republican paramilitary organisations regularly participate in their marches.’

    The republican bands don’t think they have a god given right to march up the Shankill road or down the Newtownards road annoying the victims of their crimes, if they did they should be told to f**k off.

    ‘It doesn’t seem to bother republicans when riots are started at Ardoyne, in protest at Loyal Order members walking shared space.’

    You forgot to mention the the orange order seek the protection of loyalist death squads during such marches, as is witnessed at all marches past Ardoyne, the uff are in control.

    ‘Bertie Ahern did more for Irish “unity” when he accompanied Dr No the the Boyne site recently, than any of the republican(sic) keyboard warriers on here – they simply ensure that Ireland will never be truly “united”. ‘

    Realist , your wishy washy nonsense fools noone, a sectarian bigot will always be found out, even if he has decided to wear a green football top.

    ‘Like it or not the Orange Order and what they commemorate form an integral piece of the Irish history jigsaw.’

    They are indeed, it would just be helpful if they were not made up of and associated so closely with, armed and active terrorists.

    ‘I detest sectarian bigotry – whether it comes from McKenna or members of the OO.’

    Perhaps you should take this up with the Linfield manager who is an active member of the orange order or maybe address why thousands of n.i supporters shout sectarian slogans during the english anthem at Windsor Park.

    ‘It didn’t seem to bother republicans when members of the security forces were banned from the GAA, but no action was ever taken to ban members of illegal republican paramilitary organisations.’

    I suggest you look into the history of some irish league clubs, especially in Belfast & mid ulster, paramilitarism has been well represented without any action from the ifa.

  • Realist

    poodler,

    I thank you for proving my point.

  • ciaran

    Realist you seem to be saying that you want to see compromise on the garvaghy rd issue, but it looks as if the only compromise you want is one that allows the order to get down the garvaghy rd.The order do not walk up the garvaghy rd so why do they need to go down it when it is obvious that it causes so much offence to the residents.The residents do not object to the OO or their ” god given right to walk the queens highway” as they so often say, they just don’t want them walking down their road.Seems fairly reasonable.

  • ciaran

    Realist, you asked,
    PS. What was McKenna convicted of during his contribution to the conflict?

    What does it matter what he did. He was tried , convicted and served his time. What more do you want, blood?

  • poodler

    ciaran

    realist is one of these guys who shows the hatred that exists within the unionist community.

    They pretend to accept Taigs/Catholics/Fenians within their community/sport etc.. but reallly its all about domination/control.

    Support northern ireland if you are prepared to stand to god save the queen, Support us if you are prepared to stand to our ‘1970’s flag, support us if you can shout ‘no surrender’, support us as long as you call the northern state ulster etc..

    The unionist football community awarded realist an award for his work in building bridges, how utterly sad & depressing that the only bridges are between orange lodges in the Shankill & Sandy Row.

  • Realist

    ciaran,

    “Realist you seem to be saying that you want to see compromise on the garvaghy rd issue, but it looks as if the only compromise you want is one that allows the order to get down the garvaghy rd”

    Not at all – there are two possible outcomes.

    1. No walk

    2. A walk

    I am not a big fan of the OO for many reasons, however, I strongly believe if this dispute can be resolved, it bodes well for furthering mutual respect, peace, and stability in Northern Ireland.

    I have the utmost admiration for a Mr James McGeever (a native of Co Cavan) who writes frequently to the letters page of The Irish News on this issue – he lays down a firm challenge to republicans to live up to their republican principals, and demonstrates that true Catholics (like himself) would welcome this march by virtue of Vatican teachings.

    You should have a look at what he says.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Fuck it my fingers will grow back!

    >>he lays down a firm challenge to republicans to live up to their republican principals, and demonstrates that true Catholics (like himself) would welcome this march by virtue of Vatican teachings.<

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    Welcome back.

    “They will not be welcomed until they drop all the displays of sectarian intimidation”

    What are these displays of “sectarian intimidation” that you would want dropped.

    You seem to want to use emotive language, without spelling out specifically what you mean!

    “I’ve noticed you have retreated from your OO compromises theory, the reality is that they have refused to treat the residents in a cordial respectful manner.”

    I understand compromises made by the OO include:

    Only ONE band takes part in the Drumcree Church Parade. In previous years several bands took part.

    Bands are only allowed to play hymn tunes such as Safe in the arms of Jesus. These hymns are also played in Catholic Churches.

    Since 1996 only accordion bands, accompany the District.

    No music is played passing St. John’s Roman Catholic Church.

    No music is played whilst parading along the contentious part of the Garvaghy Road. The parade passes in silence. Residents living in the estates off the Garvaghy Road would be unaware that a parade was taking place.

    Only members of Portadown District take part in the parade along the Garvaghy Road.

    But, please tell me what else would be required for a march to be tolerated/welcomed on the Garvaghy Road?

    “I have outlined my reasons for opposition, what are yours?”

    Basically, I believe the OO neeeds to ask itself is it a pro reformist faith organisation, or an anti Catholic organisation.

    As someone who (proudly) doesn’t understand the subtle differences in the theological teachings of two very similar strands of exactly the same religion, I’m in no position to comment on the religious detail of the OO.

    I am, however, very clear that their should be civil and religious liberty for all, and a right to bear witness to one’s faith.

    Being “anti Catholic” seems to contradict what the OO claim they stand for.

    I think that the OO have expressed themselves as “anti Catholic” to frequently in the past – I cannot support that at all.

    Brian Kennaway detailed many of the problems I have with the OO.

    “Where in Republican principles or Vatican teachings does it say that an inherently anti-Catholic organisation should be welcomed in their display of dominance and triumphalism down their street?”

    Mr McGeever’s numerous letters on the subject are available in the archives of The Irish News online (subsription needed). He provides a fascinating insight.

  • Realist

    ciaran,

    “What does it matter what he did. He was tried , convicted and served his time. What more do you want, blood?”

    I hope that is your stance with all those who were tried, convicted and have served their time?

    Part of the problem, however, is that the Drumcree parade is led by an Ex Servicemen’s Lodge – McKenna was convicted for his part in the bombing of The British Legion Hall in Portadown.

    Hardly an act of civility to his neighbours.

  • Realist

    ciaran,

    “What does it matter what he did. He was tried , convicted and served his time. What more do you want, blood?”

    Is that your stance with all those who were tried, convicted and have served their time, including loyalist paramilitaries?

    Part of the problem, however, is that the Drumcree parade is led by an Ex Servicemen’s Lodge – McKenna was convicted for his part in the bombing of The British Legion Hall in Portadown.

    Hardly an act of civility to his neighbours.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Prince Eoghan,

    Welcome back.< >“They will not be welcomed until they drop all the displays of sectarian intimidation”

    What are these displays of “sectarian intimidation” that you would want dropped.< >You seem to want to use emotive language, without spelling out specifically what you mean!<

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    On the basis that one of the two possible outcomes of compromise is a walk on the Garvaghy Road, what are these “displays of sectarian intimidation” that you would want dropped?

  • Prince Eoghan

    *Yawn*

    Ach well it was good while it lasted. Your crossover into adult conversation almost got us somewhere.

    As I have said previously you obviously don’t understand sectarian intimidation, lucky you!

    Do you not think that being hemmed in your own homes for years to pass-off a triumphalist parade where they are not wanted is sectarian intimidation? Or having thousands of OO members and supporters gathering year after year intent on forcing themselves down your road is sectarian intimidation? Being scared to go to town in case it is made known you are from Garvaghy Rd. is sectarian intimidation? Having numbers of troublemakers creating mayhem both in Portadown and elsewhere, road blocks and murders of children is sectarian intimidation?…………………………………………………………………

  • Prince Eoghan

    Plenty of “displays of sectarian intimidation” though by your preference for pedantry and lack of empathy for an often beleaguered community, I’m sure it won’t matter one jot!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/131022.stm

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/parade/develop.htm

    http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/385324.stm

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    I am trying to focus on the future, not the past.

    I’m talking about a walk now – none of us can change the wrongs of the past.

    I’ll try again:

    On the basis that one of the two possible outcomes of compromise is a walk on the Garvaghy Road, what are these “displays of sectarian intimidation” that you would want dropped?

    Be specific, in relation to a possible future walk down the Garvaghy Road.

    Running away from the question won’t make the question go away.

  • Prince Eoghan

    I’ve run nowhere! The fancy dancing is all yours.

    In it’s present unreconstructed form the anti-Catholic OO itself is a form of sectarian intimidation, who until they show signs of reform should not be allowed to march anywhere. Certainly not in the Garvaghy road where they are not wanted and have not made any credible effort to treat with the people who live there.

    Perhaps you could tell us why such an organisation with it’s chequered history should wish to force it’s march through an area where the residents have clearly demonstrated they are not wanted?

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    Now we’re getting to the crux of it.

    “In it’s present unreconstructed form the anti-Catholic OO itself is a form of sectarian intimidation, who until they show signs of reform should not be allowed to march anywhere”

    What specific reforms would you wish to see before you would “allow” the OO to march “anywhere”?

    Bear in mind, they are a Protestant organisation, claiming to bear witness to the Reformed Faith.

    Is this not the same Orange tradition that is represented equally on the national flag of the Irish Republic, with the nationalist tradition?

    Are these not the very “children of the nation” that are to be cherished equally?

    “Perhaps you could tell us why such an organisation with it’s chequered history should wish to force it’s march through an area where the residents have clearly demonstrated they are not wanted?”

    I’m sure representatives of Portadown District NO 1 LOL could answer that for you – and I’m sure it’s a question McKenna (himself of a “chequered history”) will be keen to ask them.

    I’m sure, like me, you can read the case of the Portadown District No 1 LOL on their website.

    I remain to be convinced either way by the offerings to the debate so far by either party to the dispute.

    I think both sides to the dispute have some strong, and wholly valid, points.

    I want to see the dispute resolved.

  • ciaran

    Realist, I think the same rules should apply for both sides of the community , not only that , I see no point in drawing out the misery in trying to prosecute any more people for actions in the troubles on either side. This may not be popular but we have to draw a line somewhere.
    I don’t think the OO will get down the garvaghy anytime soon. In the past parades these parades were forced through catholic communities in portadown and lurgan against the residents wishes. The ruc and british army attacked anyone who objected. members of the OO laughed at those injured and egged the security forces on. I know because in the past I would have been a witness to this.Now that the local people have a voice which can be heard,( and like it or not it is thanks to the likes of mc kenna and sinn fein), they want to make it clear that it won’t happen again. This is the wish of the people, not sinn fein. The residents are a strong community and do not need leadership, just a strong voice.

  • Realist

    ciaran,

    On the basis that any future walk on the Garvaghy Road can only take place with compromise and agreement with the residents, what compromises would you like to see made by Portadown District LOL?

    What compromises should the residents make?

    You have hinted that we must draw a line in relation to the past, so let’s talk future.

  • ciaran

    The order can walk to and from the church without going down the garvaghy road.
    If they were given the assurance that the other road would always be open to them even if the demographics there change, would that not be a compromise. The order can have their parade, the residents can have their road.

    Or what if they got their parade, just not every year. Have it like the olympics, once every four years.( and a medal for getting down).

    Any other ideas there?

  • Realist

    ciaran,

    I had asked specifically about what compromises you would like to see around a walk down the Garvaghy Road.

    Your idea of a walk down the Garvaghy Road, but not every year, seems interesting – has it not been put forward as a compromise before?

    It would lay down an interesting PR challenge to Portadown District LOL also.

  • ciaran

    realist, your never said what you thought of my idea for the garvaghy rd medal for those who complete the course.