London plays host to two very different parades…


FLICKR photographer Gerry Popplestone had fun in London yesterday. One minute he’s taking pictures of naked cyclists in a mass protest against dependency on the oil industry and five minutes later he captures the Orange Order in a march to commemorate the 200th birthday of the Grand Orange Lodge of England. Reports of Sammy Wilson riding through Hyde Park wearing only a sash and bowler hat remain unconfirmed, but I’m sure the tourists were amused by the culture clash of naturism and loyalism.

  • Frank Sinistra

    ‘Simply the best’ isn’t that a UFF slogan?

  • Slartibuckfast

    Here, does anyone know where to get a picture of Sammy’s moon? I’ve tried all over the net and can’t find one. Would love to have some fun with it (and I mean that in a non-gay non-masturbatery way).

  • Dawkins

    Frank,

    “‘Simply the best’ isn’t that a UFF slogan?”

    Damn this dyslexia of mine, I’ve always read it as “Simply the beast.”

  • fair_deal

    Slart

    There is a court order against their republication/reproduction.

  • Slartibuckfast

    Feck’s sake. I mind there used to be one on the AP/RN site but its long gone this couple of years.

  • fair_deal

    FS

    Nice try but no cigar. It’s a unofficial Rangers flag.

    The person with the closest claim to copyright on the phrase is Tina Turner not the UFF.

    After the single was released it was adopted by football fans including rangers fans and later adopted by the UFF in particular C Company. So it’s not a even a case of others copying the UFF its the UFF copying them.

  • frank

    Usual suspects at OO parades.

    Here’s the Thornliebank flute band taking part in a parade in Belfast to commemorate uvf assassin Brian Robinson last year. The band are carrying a wreath in memory of the uvf killer.

    Seems terrorist supporters are never far from Orange Order parades, even in London.

  • Frank Sinistra

    Simply the Best, the Rangers version. Seems the flag waver is linking all the elements of Orange culture.

  • Dawkins

    “Seems terrorist supporters are never far from Orange Order parades, even in London.”

    What, like rats and sewers?

  • Would love to have some fun with it (and I mean that in a non-gay non-masturbatery way).

    So you tell us, Slarti.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Slarti

    Suuuuure! your secret is safe with us ;¬)

    Fair Deal has stolen much of my thunder. Many sporting associations across the globe have used simply the best, for example rugby league in Australia. Loyalists copying stuff is nothing new, I am forever hearing OO or Loyalist marchers play distinctly Irish folk tunes.

  • frank

    Thornliebank flute band link missing from my post above.

  • Roger

    Its good to see the old OO bashing remains strong and vibrant on these boards.

    I’m surprised anybody is concerned about the OO as a new book on the institution has claimed that its membership is declining rapidly and it will soon be coming to the end of its existance.

    Finally Sammy Wilson is not in the OO so it illustrates what a poorly researched article this is.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Maybe, but I bet Sammy has a sense of humour and can laugh at himseld.

  • Billy

    Roger

    The “OO bashing” is made possible by the actions of the OO and it’s so-called leadership.

    They have made no attempt to rid themselves of the “loyalist” paramilitary trappings and hangers-on. Then they wonder why their PR “Image” is a complete disaster.

    The issue of OO lodges commemorating “loyalist” sectarian murderers has been debated many times here – the annual Brian Robinson parade is an obvious example.

    It’s typical of the NI OO that, at a parade in London to celebrate the 200th birthday of an organisation that supposedly represents “religious and cultural freedom” for all, they invite a band with a clear history of commemorating “loyalist” terrorism.

    When I lived in NI, I had quite a few Protestant friends in the OO. They were decent folk and I suspect that it’s people like that who are contributing to the declining OO membership. They don’t want to be associated with an organisation that commemorates “Loyalist” terror.

    The OO currently has associations with “Loyalist” terrorism and riotous behaviour. The “leadership” in some cases (Dawson Baillie) condones this and, at best, they trot out the old crap about lodge behaviour being a local matter etc etc.

    The bottom line is that, if the OO “leadership” haven’t got the will and/or the ability to remove the “loyalist” terror links, then decent folk will continue to leave and new members will be people who presumably support these links.

    Due to the increased coverage of the OO in the last 10 years, most people outside NI can see it for what it really is.

    Frankly, I don’t think the the OO leadership have the guts to tackle the paramilitary element and, therefore, the OO is going nowhere.

  • ben

    In which Fair Deal gyrates like a dervish trying to argue that this slogan, in this context, at this parade, has nothing to do with the UFF in any way. Oh no. It’s because of the OO’s love for Tina Turner and their keen interest in soccer.

  • darth rumsfeld

    in which frank and ben completely shoot themselves and the other MOPEists in the foot by scouring the flickr site with a microscope to find anything at which they can take offence.
    Here’s a wee thought for you ben- How many Orangemen support the UFF? How many support the Rangers football team? How many are simply baostful of their band/lodge? And how do you- with unerring wisdom- know what of these three interpretations is intended- or indeed any other ( I know of one unit in the army which regularly uses the tune at their functions)? Prince Eoghan has got it spot on. He undoubtedly knows that “The Sash” is believed to be an Irish folk tune.

    Billy, serious issues, and deserve a serious response. Your hypothesis, if I understand it, is largely that Orange leaders are either too weak to face down loyalist terrorists seeking to piggyback on the Institution’s popularity in the Unionist community or sympathisers with the terrorists.

    If the latter is correct then most Orangemen are guilty of spectacular deceit, and that credits them with more Machiavellian skills than have been demonstrated to date. The men who went to three Orange church services yesterday to worship God didn’t seem to me to be knuckledragging drugdealing sectarian killers (sorry ben)-just decent Godfearing men.

    If they are finding it difficult to face down terrorist sympathisers then they are not alone. Businessmen have been leeched on for years and found the response of the police and state woeful. Yet we don’t criticise the businessmen- we blame the criminals. The grassroots led nature of the Orange order from its foundation has always made it difficult to enforce the edicts of Grand Lodge, from obeying bans on parading in the 19th century to the current ban on meeting the Parades Commission

    HMG has clearly decided to fund loyalist paramilitaries into “peace”, on making the cynical calculation that those terrorists groups they hadn’t already infiltrated/controlled were still so venally corrupt that they were the proper groups to target. Given the choice between putting funds into the loyalist groups who have oppressed the urban working class, or into the Orange order and related community groups which make it still the largest and the only Protestant ecumenical group, the choice was logical.That’s the real scandal here- government dragging communities down, tolerating paramilitaries’ open criminality, and then blaming the rest of us for not doing its job in forcing them out. But it’s always easier to whine about the symptom than make the hard choices to cure the disease

  • Some Orange Order followers distinguish themselves once again after kicking and taunting the MP George Galloway in an unprovoked sectarian attack yesterday.

    >>The former Glasgow Kelvin Labour MP believes he was targeted by men returning from an Orange Walk in London for being a known Celtic supporter.

    “There was one guy I would describe as a ringleader who said ‘I don’t like your radio talk, I don’t like your newspaper talk, I have a religious duty to knock you down’.”

  • darth rumsfeld

    …followers doesn’t equal members
    Anyway, how do we know they weren’t Oona King ultras?

  • Orange haters, would it help if you thought of the parades as performance art?

    Just as well all you weren’t in Geneva the other Sunday afternoon. A Swiss flute band was playing tunes at a bandstand on the Rive Gauche when suddenly they launched into the tune of the “Billy Boys”. Disgraceful, I’m sure you’ll agree.

  • derek

    “Just as well all you weren’t in Geneva the other Sunday afternoon. A Swiss flute band was playing tunes at a bandstand on the Rive Gauche when suddenly they launched into the tune of the “Billy Boys”. Disgraceful, I’m sure you’ll agree.”

    watchman

    I doubt if they were associated with loyalist paramilitaries, unlike many of the bands who take part in orange order & apprentice boys parades.

    darth

    You don’t have to scour the site, the thread provides a link to the Flickr pics.

    The other link from Frank shows the band taking part in a paramilitary parade.

    Any comment on bands associated with murderers being such an integral part of OO celebrations.

  • The Watchman

    “Orange haters, would it help if you thought of the parades as performance art”?

    So the drunken gangs of thugs who attacked homes in The Short Strand at Easter this year after returning from an Orange Parade in Bangor were just engaging in some “Performance Art” were they?

    Welcome back from Geneva and into reality….

  • Cromwell

    Thats just the sort of thing you’d say to someone when you are about to attack them in the street isnt it?
    Sounds more like George on a self promotion tip, “did you know I’ve got a radio programme & a newspaper column?”
    Actually George, no I didnt but I do now & I admire your indefatigability in telling me, I also admire your Islamic fundamentalist mates!

  • Christopher Stalford

    I took part in Saturday’s parade and was very pleased to do so. The response of the public – thousands of whom enjoyed the event and applauded my own private lodge (Ulster Special Constabulary – LOL 1970) all the way along the parade route was very encouraging.

    I think it’s very sad that as Northern Ireland seems to be moving forward at last some Northern Ireland nationalists still cannot find it within themselves to give the cultural traditions of their Unionist neighbours even cursory or passing respect.

  • Cromwell

    “Drunken thugs” in ” attack people” shocker!!!

  • Cromwell

    Glad you find something amusing in that story. My brother’s home was one of those attacked and a brick smashed through his front window and landed just 2 feet away from where his 5 month old baby son was sleeping. A very frightening experience.

    What else amuses you then…?

  • Margot

    And can unionists give respect to the cultural tradions of nationalists?
    Or is respect a one-way street?

  • Christopher Stalford

    Margot

    How is respect not given? Oh, I see opposition to an obtrusive and unnecessary Irish Language Act?

  • Cromwell

    macswiney,

    Are UTV/BBC running some sort of outreach training programme in the Short Strand? Just wondered why some of the “bigger kids” seem to be hanging around with video cameras all the time?
    They even filmed me walking along the “wrong” side of the road going to get a taxi one night!
    15 minutes of fame or intimidation, I suppose we’d better ask the McCartney sisters.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “So the drunken gangs of thugs who attacked homes in The Short Strand at Easter this year after returning from an Orange Parade in Bangor were just engaging in some “Performance Art” were they?”

    You just can’t resist it can you macswiney? We’ve had this debate before, but since you need to bring it up again-
    I don’t deny the incident occurred- you were there, I wasn’t, but…
    it was miles away from the orange event
    it was some time after the orange event
    You haven’t furnished any evidence that any orangeman was involved

    By your standards Liverpool FC are directly responsible for their supporters’ behaviour in Athens until they weed out every scally who travels to their events.

  • Cromwell,

    I note that you have failed to explain why you find an unprovoked attack on homes containing young children funny?

    Your covert bigotry shone through quite clearly in that last response.

    Lets try again then. Why is an attack on innocent people in their homes, funny?

  • Cromwell

    macswiney,

    I dont find it particularly amusing & I’m genuinely sorry that something like that happened, however, drunken thugs attack people all the time, check Buncrana out at the weekend.

  • “I think it’s very sad that as Northern Ireland seems to be moving forward at last some Northern Ireland nationalists still cannot find it within themselves to give the cultural traditions of their Unionist neighbours even cursory or passing respect.”

    Didn’t stop you selling out, Christopher.

  • Christopher Stalford

    Pity for you, I didn’t sell out then isn’t it.

  • Darth,

    So the Orange Order are’nt responsible for them because they had already left the parade.

    Lets see then. Many were wearing Rangers football tops, but yeah, of course, Rangers would’nt have anything to so with them either…

    So whose responsibilty are they exactly. Most of them were chanting UDA slogans, but i guess the UPRG would deny them as well.

    So I wonder is there anybody in the Unionist community who would be prepared to put their hands up and say ” Look this is actually a problem within our community, so lets deal with it…”

    I wont hang around waiting for that response though…

  • Cruimh

    “So the drunken gangs of thugs who attacked homes in The Short Strand at Easter this year after returning from an Orange Parade in Bangor were just engaging in some “Performance Art” were they? ”

    Mac – Does the same sort of blame attach to Sinn Féin and the IRA because of those who carried out that horrendous assault outside Magennis’s Bar after attending the parade in Derry January 2005 ?

  • Cromwell

    macswiney,
    Any chance of a response to the question I asked above?
    Or should I also ask the decent people of Cluan Place?

  • derek

    I think it’s very sad that as Northern Ireland seems to be moving forward at last some Northern Ireland nationalists still cannot find it within themselves to give the cultural traditions of their Unionist neighbours even cursory or passing respect

    chris

    Is marching behind a terrorist band cultural tradition ?

    Is it a tradition of the orange order to carry banners celebrating loyalist terrorists including the Shankill butchers etc..?

    What’s your views on the Old Boyne Island Defenders lodge (the uvf lodge), are Bobby ‘ Basher’ Bates of the Shankill butchers and uvf commander John Bingham worthy of commemoration by the orange order.?

    I don’t regard the celebration of mass murderers as tradition and many of many uniuonist neighbours would be in full agreement.

  • Christopher Stalford

    derek

    I have never seen a banner commemorating the Shankill Butchers at any Orange Parade I have attended. I have raised this issue and been told that it does not exist. I would like to see an image of it, because if it does exist one would presume that Nationalists, quite rightly, would complain about it being carried on any parade.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “I’m surprised anybody is concerned about the OO as a new book on the institution has claimed that its membership is declining rapidly and it will soon be coming to the end of its existance.”

    …actually Kaufmann’s book says that there is decline in Belfast,Londonderry ad Portadown-all urban areas, but that it is holding its own in the countryside, and even increasing in some border areas. The decline is on a par with other fraternal socities, but less rapid than for the churches. Membership in 2004 was broadly on a par with 1904. It remains the largest pan-Protestant organisation in N Ireland.
    So still plenty to MOPE about

  • Cromwell,

    Which question?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “So the Orange Order are’nt responsible for them because they had already left the parade.”

    By george I think he’s got it!

    “Lets see then. Many were wearing Rangers football tops, but yeah, of course, Rangers would’nt have anything to so with them either…”

    ..er, yup

    “So whose responsibilty are they exactly. Most of them were chanting UDA slogans, but i guess the UPRG would deny them as well.”

    Well at least that’s proof of where their sympathies lay, so I guess the UPRG have a greater claim to them than the Orange- funny how you linked them to the latter though

    “So I wonder is there anybody in the Unionist community who would be prepared to put their hands up and say “ Look this is actually a problem within our community, so lets deal with it…””

    Yeah. Me. Ways to deal with it-
    Don’t give state money to them
    Don’t play golf with their leaders and treat godfathers like statesmen
    Don’t hold back on the batons and cs spray when they behave like you describe
    Don’t let out their prisoners early or protect criminal acts of agents in their organisations.

    The problem is that these are all matters within the remit of government.If you want community action let’s all stand together against all paramilitaries-you know, like the ones currently in government, with which I can’t honestly recall you having a problem before.

    “”I won’t hang around waiting for that response though…””
    Pity.

    “Pity for you, I didn’t sell out then isn’t it.

    Posted by Christopher Stalford on Jun 11, 2007 @ 02:34 PM”

    ..er, when did you leave the DUP, Christopher?

  • derek

    Chris

    FRom Peter Taylor

    Old Boyne Island Heroes are known locally as the “UVF Lodge” for good reason.

    Peter Taylor in his book Loyalists lists their “proud” tradition: “The only bomber on Lodge 633’s banner, under the words ‘In fond memory of our fallen brethren’, is one of the names of five UVF Lodge members killed in the current conflict listed on the Lodge’s smaller bannerette. Aubrey Reid was one of four UVF men blown up in 1975 when the bomb they were carrying in their car exploded prematurely; Noel ‘Nogi’ Shaw was ‘executed’ as a result of an internal UVF feud, also in 1975; John Bingham was a UVF commander shot dead in his home by the IRA in 1986; Brian Robinson was killed on ‘active service’ by undercover soldiers in 1989; and Robert ‘Basher’ Bates was shot dead in a revenge attack in 1997. A sixth name, that of Colin Craig, gunned down by the INLA in 1994, was once listed on the bannerette but removed when it was thought he had been an informer.”

    Taylor quotes the Master of LOL 633, Eddie McAdam, as saying: “We don’t throw them out because they’re brethren . . . We could throw out house burglars or sex offenders and the like, but to us these guys are not criminals, they’re victims of circumstances.”

    Davy Payne was also a member of Old Boyne lodge, a leader of the UDA in North Belfast. Payne was caught in January 1988 with a consignment of rifles in the overloaded boot of a hired Ford Granada car outside Portadown. He was later sentenced to nine years’ imprisonment.

    UVF man Brian Robinson, shot on September 2, 1989 by an Army undercover team, was a member of Old Boyne Island Heroes LOL 633. He and his accomplice, David McCullough, had just shot dead a 43 year-old Roman Catholic, Patrick McKenna, in the Ardoyne.

    He also was given an “Orange funeral”, and death notices appeared in the local press from his lodge. This caused some controversy at the time and led to at least one letter of complaint to the Belfast Telegraph.

    The order says this : “will not admit into its brotherhood persons whom an intolerant spirit leads to persecute, injure, or upbraid any man on account of his religious opinions”, but also the aim of “setting a good example in our daily lives, by living up to the high principles of the Order.” yet is happy to have all manner of mass murderers within its ranks.

    I believe Eddie McILwaine (convicted Shankill butcher is also an active member of his local lodge.

  • Cromwell

    Derek/Frank,

    Its a pity the Provos wee green book didnt say some that.

  • Cromwell

    macswiney,

    The question about “kids” in the Short Strand filming/intimidating people. Why?

  • Christopher Stalford

    Darth Rumsfeld

    Suit yourself. Perhaps you should form your own political party and see how much support your views have within the Unionist electorate?

    As for me, I know that I have not “sold out”. These accusations of sell-out were made frequently during the election and did those who made them do awfully well?

  • derek

    Chris what’s your views on the uvf lodge ?

  • Whatever Next

    Uh, Chris, as one of the worst peforming DUP candidates (losing what should have been an easy 2nd seat gained in Sth Belf), I’d defer to you on the whole ‘didn’t do awfully well’ thing. After you failed to get into Stormont and brushed up your CV, did you ask your former employer in Brussels to write you a reference? What do you think his take on the whole ‘selling out’ thing is? Or are you really going to come here and pretend that 30 years of dishonest bluster by Paisley, all so he could get himself a grand office, and Martin the Murderer as a deputy was a great victory for Unionism?

  • nmc

    Its a pity the Provos wee green book didnt say some that.

    The IRA never falsely sold themselves as a Christian organisation.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “As for me, I know that I have not “sold out”. These accusations of sell-out were made frequently during the election and did those who made them do awfully well?”

    OK, so your test for political integrity is how many votes a party gets. So I take it Sinn Fein are now a perfectly valid political party, being so popular? As an Orangeman you’ll be very familiar with the Biblical example of Gideon and the three hundred who lapped but did not kneel, which seems to rather cut across the idea that numbers equals righteousness.
    I think you’ll find a significant drop in the DUP vote next time out, as people see the party micro-managing the Agreement.When did any Unionist start congratulating Fianna Fail for winning an election in the south? I thought we were opposed to interfering in another country’s affairs

    And I don’t know if you have sold out,nor have I accused you of so doing, but I know that your leader was quite clear of his position when he spoke on the 12th of July last year and that is absolutely irreconcilable with his present stance. If you oppose that sellout within the DUP that’s fine by me, but I suspect you’ll find it a long and lonely struggle.
    Mind you, I hear the audience for the Great Crocodile’s attempt to justify the unjustifiable will be significantly smaller in Ballymoney this 12th, since some independent lodges are talking of boycotting the parade

  • nmc

    I believe this is the speech to which you are referring Darth:

    http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=75123&pt=n

  • So Christopher, the DUP hasn’t sold out? What did Papa Doc say to the Independent Orangemen last Twelfth? Something about power-sharing with the Shinners being over his dead body, no ifs and no buts?

    I can quote chapter and verse at you from stuff still lingering on your party’s website, Christopher, to demonstrate conclusively that the DUP has broken its word. You know full well that I can do so, although I suspect that your former employer would do it with a lot more panache.

    Of course, you’re a member of a party which always prided itself on keeping its word whilst other unionists broke theirs (anyone remember “The Unionist Party You Can Trust”?). Your leader spent 40 years berating everyone from O’Neill to Trimble for surrendering far less than he has given away. You’ve come on here over the years to heap coals on the Turtle, and you’ve now accepted a polished-up version of the same deal. All of you are now neo-Trimbleites and you might as well acknowledge your debt to his noble Purpleness.

    By the way, since you’re on here and in full-scale apologist mode, perhaps you can say why your leader and deputy leader disagree as to why they signed up to the dirty deal.

    On being asked on the Nolan show of 4 April why he had done so, Papa Doc said:

    “We were told if we didn’t do this then it was going to be curtains for our country … (h)ow would I have faced my people if I had allowed this country to have the union destroyed and the setting up of a joint government by the south of Ireland?” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6527333.stm)

    Yet the Punt had told the House of Commons a week earlier on 27 March that the DUP had NOT been forced into government by any threats. In his words in Hansard at column 1329 he said,

    “The DUP reached a decision on its own. It decided what the consequences might be. It was not bullied into that position by anybody. No threats from the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister or anyone else would have altered the considered opinion of the DUP.”
    (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070327/debtext/70327-0008.htm#07032777000826)

    Those 2 statements are incompatible with each other. Who’s telling the truth, Christopher?

  • Whatever Next

    For once I have to slightly differ from Watchers up there. I don’t think the two positions are ‘incompatible’ as such – the Punt after all could easily have his creatures tell us, sotto voce, ‘we *were* threatened, but we didn’t blink, and we stuck to the position we were always going to take, if the circumstances were right’. It’s absurd in it’s specific detail, but it’s *not*, surely, logically impossible to say, “we were threatened, but, (and although the end result would be no different if we had been) we didn’t actually buckle before those threats. We made up our own minds on our own time for our own reasons”?

    Yet here’s the thing – that’s not what the whispering boys round the Punt tell anyone who’ll listen. What they say is that the Croc had a ‘senior moment’, and that when he – doubtless suffering from whatever passes for guilt in Paisley – simply blurted out that balls about totally imaginary threats when he was on Lard’s radio show, that’s all they were – a little fiction dreamt up on the spot by Paisley. And for what it’s worth, that’s what I think – these ‘threats’ were just one more lie, in a long, long career of them from the bigoted old fool.

  • Turgon

    At the moment I think there are a number of camps in the DUP. Some of them seem very happy with the current status quo and the love in with martin and co. There seem to be others not yet willing to jump ship but worried. Unlike the UUP Paisley’s personality cult seems to keep them in check.

    I think in fairness to the Big (and old) man part of him may think this is the best deal he could get for unionism. Yes and part of him was carried away with the lust for power and acceptance by Tony. This was probably the best deal HE could have got for unionism. That is the sad thing. He seems to be unable to differentate between his interests (I accept he has frequently been a good servant of traditional unionism) and those of unionism.

    I am convinced, however, that people will soon re evaluate the deal. remember the GFA. The only option after the referrendum seemed Trimble and the deal. The media, everyone looked on and laughed at Paisley. Look at the difference now.

    I am sure if we fast forward a short time people will get dissillusioned with the current deal. Paisley may be able to hold the party together but he will not lead it forever. There must be some in the party who are prepared to break ranks when he has gone. All we need do is wait.

    Once unionists see the deal as it truly is and once there is a credible party to vote for I am sure things will start to move back. It is amazing the number of apparently garden centre Prods who now vote DUP. I am sure they can make the move over. After all they are not moving at all, the DUP is doing the moving for them. I used to worry many middle class non Free P unionists would not vote DUP but I was (thankfully) mistaken.

    The times they will a change.

  • Turgon

    Incidentally I asked this on another thread and no one picked up on it. The Ulster flag flew for years outside Paisley’s house but now it has gone, has been for several months as far as I can see.

  • kyle

    ‘Ulster flag’ or the old unionist gov. flag ?

  • frank

    darth

    It’s not my fault that a band that honours a uvf killer was taking part in the orange parade in London.

    What’s to search, its all in the links.

    It seems that a large proportion of bands associated with orange parades have connections or support loyalist terrorism.

    There’s not much point you going on about PUP or UPRG funding when the marches you support are swamped with the same people, in sashes and bands.

    Don’t forget the orange order’s association with loyalist terrorism goes back to the first death in the present troubles, Gusty Spence was a member of his local lodge when he murdered in 1966.

    Since 1986 all bands that are hired by the Orange Order are required to sign a contract stipulating good behaviour and regulating drumming, uniforms, alcohol usage etc But this obviously does not include commemorating loyalist murderers within its ranks.

    And the Apprencice boys are much the same, with terrorist bands to the fore in all main parades.

    The Apprentice Boys parades in England have not escaped controversy. The 1996 parade in Bolton attracted members of the fascist group Combat 18. The speaker at the rally, Gregory Campbell of the DUP, denied that the ‘ Boys’ had links with the fascist group. A spokesperson for the anti-fascist magazine, Searchlight, revealed that the “Apprentice Boys had a similar march in London last year with over 150 Combat 18 stewards.” Photos of the ‘Boys’ and Combat 18 members appeared at the time in Searchlight magazine. The spokesperson for the Apprentice Boys in England, John Mc Dowell, said, “We would prefer not to have them along”

    Nazis, Facists & terrorists – all in a days work for the marching orders.

  • Cruimh

    Well Frank – do you think it was orangemen or their supporters who nearly killed those two English tourists in Louth ? Attacked with hatchets.

  • frank

    cruimh

    I would doubt there was any orange invovement.

    I’m pretty sure some orangemen were in Louth recently with our new First Minister & the Taoiseach though !!

    I think they left the paramilitaries at home that day.

  • Dawkins

    Cruimh,

    “Well Frank – do you think it was orangemen or their supporters who nearly killed those two English tourists in Louth ?”

    Of course not! Clearly the murderers of Banaz Mahmod were responsible for that.

    Talk about straw men :0(

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Incidentally I asked this on another thread and no one picked up on it. The Ulster flag flew for years outside Paisley’s house but now it has gone, has been for several months as far as I can see.”

    It’s always a shame when traditions die. Why not start a slugger whipround to buy a new flag. I’ll chip in a tenner… as long as the flag’s white

    I’ll get me sash

  • Turgon

    Darth,

    Do you think he would prefer a bit of green and gold in that white flag.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Them trolls need fed, so

    “It seems that a large proportion of bands associated with orange parades have connections or support loyalist terrorism.”

    Does it? You’ve identified one. I bet with a youtube trawl you might even find one or two more. I’m guessing there are several hundred bands, given that there are over 1000 orange lodges. Every year bands that breach guidelines in the contract you refer to are.. er banned.. from participating in orange parades. What else do you want them to do?

    Terrorism is society’s problem- so why aren’t you down the phone to Inspector Knacker of the Yard about these people if you want something done about them?

    “There’s not much point you going on about PUP or UPRG funding when the marches you support are swamped with the same people, in sashes and bands.”
    Evidence? nah, you wouldn’t want to have to produce evidence.
    I’ll help you out here. There were three thousand people on parade in London. How many were UDA supporters? I’ll allow you fifty either way, since you obviously have a swamp to assess. Only problem is, I don’t know
    anyone, with the exception of young Stalford, who was there, and obviously while he supports Martin Mcguinness’ party in government that’s pushing the definition “terrorist supporter” too far, even for me.

    “Don’t forget the orange order’s association with loyalist terrorism goes back to the first death in the present troubles, Gusty Spence was a member of his local lodge when he murdered in 1966.”
    ..and did his lodge carry out the killing, or conspire with him? Was he under orders from the Grand master?
    That’s as cheap a shot as saying -“Don’t forget the Roman Catholic church’s assocation with the nazi party goes back to the present Pope being a member of the Hitler Youth”.
    I’ve no idea what church has the dubious privelege of claiming Mr Spence on the books, but if he was a methodist would you make the same connection? Or a member of the Dockers’ Club? Or the Shankill Road Budgie Fanciers’ club?

    Nope, not so easy to rein in the old MOPEism there sport. Seriously, a sense of proportion would genuinely help you raise the level of the debate.

  • Cromwell

    Darth,

    A sense of proportion from Frank, the one trick pony!

  • Billy

    Darth

    When it comes to distancing themslves from “Loyalist” terrorism – the OO offers plenty of rhetoric but no substance. Even at the recent statement about sex offenders being automatically excluded from membership, Grand Secretary Drew Nelson wasn’t very forthcoming. When pushed about Order policy on individuals found guilty of other offences, he said “Our discipline review will look at members with any kind of serious conviction.” Sounds like he’s really going to do something about “Loyalist” terrorists or their sympathisers in the OO then -will he bollox!!

    Or what about Dawson Baillie who openly condoned OO members rioting and attacking the police.

    I have no doubt that there are many decent folk in the OO who want nothing to do with “loyalist” terrorism.

    However, the OO “leadership” refuses to expel convicted terrorists or to ban OO lodges with banners and/or bands commemorating “Loyalist” terrorists.

    If it really is an organisation devoted to “civil and religious liberty” why does it want such supporters? Surely, they must represent the exact opposite of what the OO professes to believe?

    Having lived for many years in England, the OO has a very poor public image. It is viewed as an anachronism which is, at best, ambiguous about “loyalist” terrorism.

    Talk is cheap and the UK public are not stupid enough to be fooled by the waffle from Nelson and co. If the OO aren’t willing or able to take clear action against members, lodges or bands who openly commemorate “loyalist” terrorism, then they will continue to suffer from a worsening public perception and declining membership.

  • Has anyone seen Christopher Stalford?

  • frank

    ‘Terrorism is society’s problem’

    darth

    The problem is that many terrorists and their supporters are members of the order & take part in OO/ABOD parades.

    So terrorism is a bigger problem for the various marching organisations as murderers are welcomed and celebrated by the ‘christian organisation’.

    When an organisation is happy to have a lodge that included & includes mass murderers within its ranks its hardly likely to welcome on the streets.

    For most decent people, the likes of Shankill butchers Bobby ‘Basher’ Bates & Eddie McIlwaine would be seen mass murderers, to the orange order they are people to be remembered and commemorated.

    For most decent people, the likes uff killer Joe Bratty was a mass murderer, responsible for over 20 sectarian murders. To the orange order he was an esteemed member and worthy of commemoration at the main 12th march in Belfast.

    But hey darth, whatever rocks your boat.

    Just don’t expect to be welcomed as normal god-fearing folk when you celebrate mass murderers and facilitate their supporters.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “The problem is that many terrorists and their supporters are members of the order & take part in OO/ABOD parades.”

    Evidence?
    Try as you might, you’ve named one person convicted of terrorism out of perhaps 50,000 members in one Lodge out of over 1200. Now I’m not stupid enough to claim he’s the only one, but it’s easy to bandy words like “many”. Neither of us knows the truth.

    Perhaps you’ll agree that many Sinn Fein branches have IRA members in them, and even that many GAA clubs have such members- whatever that would prove. Would it make the GAA as a body complicit in their crimes? Of course not.

    I’d bet that if we could do the research it would show more IRA members were members of their local GAA club than UVF/UDA men were members of the local Lodge. By your standard they are being celebrated and facilitated, yet I’m sure you wouldn’t call on “normal god-fearing folk” to shun them.

    “For most decent people, the likes uff killer Joe Bratty was a mass murderer, responsible for over 20 sectarian murders.” You see, we just don’t know if he was, any more than we know if Martin McGuinness was a mass murderer. Of course we may sincerely believe them to be killers- I’m sure you do- but I can’t go around making accusations without evidence, and the people who have that are the police.

    John Allen was murdered, apparently by the UVF, and his father claims the killer is a member of a Lodge, but how could I have that man thrown out of a Lodge,when there hasn’t been a criminal conviction? Where’s my evidence to put to a disciplinary hearing? If the killers of Robert Mccartney are members of a GAA club, Rotary club or beekeepers’ society, should they be expelled, and exactly how can a voluntary organisation go about doing so while at the same time abiding within the law? Prominent GAA member Francie Brolly MLA was arrested and interviewed about the Claudy bombing, but never charged. Was his club remiss in not covening a disciplinary hearing? Of course not- they had no evidence to base a complaint on.

    The real problem is what to do with the tens of thousands who were/are involved in paramilitarism here. If Edward McIlwaine has been convicted, and arguably paid his price to society, how long does he remain persona non grata after serving a sentence? Raymond McCartney MLA was convicted of IRA crimes and served a sentence. How long should the GAA have refused to admit or readmit him to membership of a club, assuming him to be a member?

    Perhaps we’d all be better off if there was some consistent guidelines from society’s leaders. Like not playing golf with the alleged leaders of terrorist groups, or funding ex-prisoners’ groups. If government blurs the lines, what hope for the rest of us?