Jackie McDonald, the UDA, and equality..

UTV news just carried a report on a St Patrick’s breakfast held at the La Mon hotel. Whilst one of the speakers was DUP leader Ian Paisley the notable part of the report was an interview with one of the guests, UDA leader Jackie McDonald. And we got the rare sight of McDonald commenting publicly on the UDA. But the point to note was not, as the report suggests, his urging of the DUP to go into government with SF, it was his ruling out of UDA decommissioning until “they get what Sinn Féin and the IRA got”. [Are you listening Mr Hain? – Ed] No doubt that message has already been received by those in more regular contact with Mr McDonald. Seems like the Process™ still has some way to go on those poisonous foundations. Updated below Final UpdateThe quote above, while accurately capturing what Jackie McDonald said, does paraphrase what he said. I had one hearing to get the gist of it since the report was not online. Hearing it again, in the 6pm programme, I’ve had a chance to try to note the actual quote, on when the UDA would decommission.

“Whenever they’re afforded the luxuries that Sinn Féin and the IRA were afforded.. whenever they get what the IRA got.. maybe then.”

Again I’m open to correction on that quote.. the report [15th March] will be online, at some point, here

Final Update Now that the report is online I’ve been able to get the full quote – the relevant section is about halfway through the show.

“Whenever they’re afforded all the luxuries that Sinn Féin and the IRA were afforded, and they’re given some of the things that the IRA got, then perhaps it could be at the horizon but it’s not on the radar at the minute.”

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  • Irish Republican in America

    What did Sinn Fein and/or the IRA get?

  • wee slabber

    The term “Walter Mitty” would seem apt for Mr McDonald.

  • bpower

    IRinA,

    You know when you hear people saying things like “black people get everything” or “immigrants get everything”? Well its a bit like that.

  • well its going to an interesting debate when in the Assembly they get round to discussing what to do about loyalist paramilitarism. I look forward to SF giving the DUP a grilling on the way in which Unionism has manipulated the loyalists and hung them out to dry.

  • wee slabber

    Unionists and the spooks from the “mainland”!

  • Bemused

    Nice one bpower!

  • Comrade Stalin

    it was his ruling out of UDA decommissioning until “they get what Sinn Féin and the IRA got”.

    The UDA has no mandate and no support. It has failed to build a following at the polls. There is a case for regenerating loyalist communities, sure. But why should the UDA as an organization receive anything ?

  • quite right comdrade stalin

  • Ruling out of UDA decommissioning until “they get what Sinn Féin and the IRA got”.

    Sounds fair enough to me, give them cross border bodies, 50/50 recruitment, parades comission, Irish govt. input into northern affairs, increased north-south cooperation, removal/reduction of british state symbol & military forces.

    I say give all of the above to the UDA in spades!

  • wee slabber

    CanDo, they tell us the Union is safe. Everything else is on a democratic footing. Where’s the problem?

  • bpower

    CanDo,

    There was no “giving” involved. The people of* Ireland voted them into existence on 23 May 1998.

    Unionists can replace the “of” with “who happened to live on the island of”.

  • Skintown Lad

    how long are we going to keep treating these gangsters with kid gloves? we shouldn’t be giving them money just to slacken the noose

  • Concerned Loyalist

    What did Sinn Fein and/or the IRA get?

    Posted by Irish Republican in America on Mar 15, 2007 @ 02:40 PM

    Well for a start they got plenty of money off “wannabe Oirish” pricks like you..

    When you and your so-called comrades went round collecting money for the Provies of Sinn Fein/IRA in the bars and clubs of Boston and Irish immigrant districts of New York did you stop to think the damage you were doing to my community, the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist people? Or did you, like your Shinner mates over here, just dismiss us as “settler” scumbags who were disillusioned Irishman in an identity crisis?

    I’m interested to hear your response as there have been a number of so-called “Irish American” commentators on Slugger but I’ve never come across one who was bold enough to declare themselves as a “Republican”.

    I am your perceived enemy, let me hear your justification for providing funds for IRA low-lifes who murdered people I knew and attempted to murder family members…

  • As long as you are sure Jackie.

    Keep a look out in your post for a tax demand for £20 million, that should even things up with Republicans.

    The Sectarian prosecution of General Thomas Slab Murphy and family is my reference point.

  • Yoda

    “wannabe Oirish” pricks

    Jaysus.

  • picador

    I wonder what Paisley and co. have to say about the UDA’s continued refusal to decommission. Nothing I expect.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “And we got the rare sight of McDonald commenting publicly on the UDA. But the point to note was not, as the report suggests, his urging of the DUP to go into government with SF, it was his ruling out of UDA decommissioning until “they get what Sinn Féin and the IRA got”.”

    What did the latest IMC report say about the dissident offshoots – the Continuity RA and the Real RA? If you were a Womble (UDA Member) would that report convince you that the UFF should be stood down, their munitions handed over and the UDA transformed into an “Old-Boys Association”?

  • marty (not ingram)

    CL,
    I doubt the average UDA member read the last IMC report. Indeed, I doubt the average UDA member even knows what the IMC is.

    It’s all about crime. Not “defending” Ulster.

  • bpower

    CL,
    Nobody gives a fuck what the UDA think. Whats with all this concern for criminals, do you care what the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA think?

    The sooner these gangs are crushed the better.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: “When you and your so-called comrades went round collecting money for the Provies of Sinn Fein/IRA in the bars and clubs of Boston and Irish immigrant districts of New York did you stop to think the damage you were doing to my community, the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist people? Or did you, like your Shinner mates over here, just dismiss us as “settler” scumbags who were disillusioned Irishman in an identity crisis? ”

    **plays a small violin**

    Wake we when he gets to the part about walking to school eight miles through snow and ice, uphill, both ways…

    Concerned Loyalist: “What did the latest IMC report say about the dissident offshoots – the Continuity RA and the Real RA? If you were a Womble (UDA Member) would that report convince you that the UFF should be stood down, their munitions handed over and the UDA transformed into an “Old-Boys Association”? ”

    ‘course not, old bean… that might get in the way of the criminal empire… Why, without the guns, elected officials might actually run the show, rather than a shower of un-elected and un-electable thug-o-crats.

  • Northsider

    Well for a start they got plenty of money off “wannabe Oirish” pricks like you..

    Maybe they could organise in that island they refer to as ‘the mainland’ and go round the pubs and clubs begging for money to fight the good fight to keep themselves British.

    Or rather, British drug dealers, British extortionists, British pornographers, British pimps and, er, oh yes – British pastors.

    Getting tiresome hearing this ‘we want what they got’ – and what exactly was that?

    Equality? Think again, Einstein – it’s not that hard.

    50/50 recruitment in a force they despise?

    Er, cross-border bodies – when Jackie-O likes dining in Presidential-style down South.

    WHAT exactly?

    Maybe the right to wage a war by targeting haridressers, shop assistants, Chinese delivery drivers, taxi drivers, window-cleaners, teenagers in Celtic tops hiding under snooker tables… and on.

    There’s much to be proud of after all…

  • Comrade Stalin

    Concerned Loyalist:

    Well for a start they got plenty of money off “wannabe Oirish” pricks like you..

    The guy asked a reasonable question and you responded with abuse. You had an opportunity to explain it to the guy in a civilized way, and refused to take it. This is why loyalism is in the toilet.

    I am your perceived enemy, let me hear your justification for providing funds for IRA low-lifes who murdered people I knew and attempted to murder family members…

    There should be something funny about a UDA supporter asks other people to explain why they killed people, but I don’t find myself laughing.

    The UDA did not even put up a candidate at these elections, because if it did it would have been slaughtered. You can’t even intimidate people out to vote in your own heartlands. Loyalist paramilitarism is a criminal cancerous element and must be cut out before it spreads any further.

  • loftholdingswood

    I did not see the UTV clip (I’ll make a point of looking out for it at 6PM) but it would be deeply unfortunate to solely concentrate on just one sentence. There is a sense of unease in the Loyalist community concerning the opportunities and incentives that were handed out to Sinn Fein/IRA during this whole peace process and, in turn, there are expectations that similar schemes could transform and regenerate areas that are sorely in need of help. Mr McDonald is merely pointing this out. He is not personally demanding anything, just highlighting the seeming imbalance. The great strides that have been made via the CTI (Conflict Transformation Initiative) deserve recognition and further support. I believe CTI will ultimately build the foundations for the total standing down of the UFF and the abandonment of the idea/notion that the battle for the future of this country can be fought militarily. As the six month CTI pilot scheme nears completion I believe that the written conclusions and analysis will highlight the overriding wish of the membership to seek a peaceful political solution to all future problems and a desire to put back into the community in a positive way.

  • Dr Strangelove

    loftholdingswood – “There is a sense of unease in the Loyalist community concerning the opportunities and incentives that were handed out to Sinn Fein/IRA during this whole peace process “.

    I believe the give and take of the process is down to negotiation. We have something you want and you have something we want. Anyone would think reading your comment Lofty that this was a one way street. I think the people of NI got notable gains from the IRA, decomissioning, their standing down and now recognition of the police.

    What CL and his ilk need to realise, as has been pointed out above, is that Sinn Fein have a huge mandate. I think the ordinary UDA member needs to ask their political representatives why they have been left high and dry.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Well they should give a committment to decommission or they should be left alone to rot in their boltholes.
    The electoral system is open to these people and if they get a sufficient mandate then the views of Mc Donal may be worthy of consideration. As it is he is just another extortionist who ruins a good suit.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “I did not see the UTV clip (I’ll make a point of looking out for it at 6PM) but it would be deeply unfortunate to solely concentrate on just one sentence. ”

    Even if it’s the most telling of the lot? Goodness — can’t let the truth get too far ahead of the spin, can we?

    LHW: “There is a sense of unease in the Loyalist community concerning the opportunities and incentives that were handed out to Sinn Fein/IRA during this whole peace process and, in turn, there are expectations that similar schemes could transform and regenerate areas that are sorely in need of help. Mr McDonald is merely pointing this out.”

    Were that only the truth… Another play for Danegeld, no more, no less. McDonald is not “merely pointing out” that there are areas in need — he could have done that without mentioning disarmament. By bringing Loyalist guns into the discussion, he’s made his position and his willingness to use the implied threat of violence clear.

    LHW: “The great strides that have been made via the CTI (Conflict Transformation Initiative) deserve recognition and further support. I believe CTI will ultimately build the foundations for the total standing down of the UFF and the abandonment of the idea/notion that the battle for the future of this country can be fought militarily.”

    Please, sir, for just a few million more, you can shut us up until our next “request” for Danegeld…

  • Oranges for Sale

    My biggest problem with Jackie McDonald or anyone like him (orange or green) is that he simply isn’t the elected voice of the grass roots that he claims to be, and thus he simply does not deserve to get the air time on a news report. If it wasn’t for a few rusty home made ‘Sten guns’ stashed away somewhere in Seymour Hill he would be a complete nobody with about as much political relevance as Tony Blair’s pet cat ‘Humphrey’.

    Should the people of Northern Ireland listen to a man with a past record like his? NO!

    Should the people of Northern Ireland listen to a man whose cohorts still regularly take part in extortion and intimidation on a regular basis? NO!

    Should the people of Northern Ireland listen to a man whose organisation still ruins lives and communities? NO.

    Jackie, get back to the darts club, your pints getting warm….

  • Jimmy Sands

    So are DUP/UDA social events a regular feature of the social calendar nowadays? It’s so hard to keep up.

  • sean1

    As far as the DUP are concerned the ‘RA and Sinn Fein got nothing.. Who gives a shite what the UDA do, they are so insignificant in any aspect of government/politics/Military/community workers etc.

    As for elections….I’ve more sheep in my yard than they have votes. When the Shinners get hold of the PSNI they will seek them on Mr. McDonald and Co.

  • TAFKABO

    Someone needs to point out to the UDA that what Sinn Fein (and, by extension, the IRA insofar as they bought into Sinn Fein strategy) got was a mandate from the electorate. I don’t like the shinners, but on that point they will always have a legitimacy that the UDA never did.

  • loftholdingswood

    Dread,

    It is not a question of spin but getting beyond a sound bite and understanding exactly what is being said. Now that I have seen the brief segment it was merely one aspect of a longer conversation where other issues were mentioned such as the rejection of criminality and drug dealing in Loyalist areas and a firm desire to see the new assembly up and running. There was also a more salient point made in relation to bringing everyone on-board and not leaving parts of the organisation behind in areas that feel under threat/siege. But I guess you missed that. As for your continued insistence that this is one great big scam to get hold of some mega bucks payout – think again. I understand that the financial package asked for for the continuation of the CTI scheme has surprised Government officials as it is considerably less than anticipated and devoid of any sort of “pay off” for either individuals or shady groups so that they can nip down the bookies and stick it all on some old nag at Cheltenham. But knock yourself out with the danegeld quote, it is all you seem to know.

  • Harris

    Concerned Loyalist

    “Well for a start they got plenty of money off “wannabe Oirish” pricks like you..”

    What an idiot! And you expect to make friends and influence people with comments like that?

    When you and your so-called comrades went round collecting money for the Provies of Sinn Fein/IRA in the bars and clubs of Boston and Irish immigrant districts of New York did you stop to think the damage you were doing to my community, the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist people?”

    Well yeah, that’s why it was done.

    “I’m interested to hear your response as there have been a number of so-called “Irish American” commentators on Slugger but I’ve never come across one who was bold enough to declare themselves as a “Republican”.”

    What’s so wrong with being sympathetic to the republican cause?

    “I am your perceived enemy, let me hear your justification for providing funds for IRA low-lifes who murdered people I knew and attempted to murder family members…”

    Again with the idiot comments. How do you know IRIA provided funds to anyone? You’re just talking out of your arse.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “It is not a question of spin but getting beyond a sound bite and understanding exactly what is being said. Now that I have seen the brief segment it was merely one aspect of a longer conversation where other issues were mentioned such as the rejection of criminality and drug dealing in Loyalist areas and a firm desire to see the new assembly up and running. ”

    Uh-huh… and we can expect the drug-pusher off the street when?

    They have not “rejected criminality.” Jackie-boy employs “rejecting criminality” as a rhetorical device.

    LHW: “There was also a more salient point made in relation to bringing everyone on-board and not leaving parts of the organisation behind in areas that feel under threat/siege. ”

    “under siege.” Right. Now pull the other leg, its got bells. No one is “under siege,” except the law-abiding folks stuck in UDA / UFF dominated neighborhoods.

    LHW: ” understand that the financial package asked for for the continuation of the CTI scheme has surprised Government officials as it is considerably less than anticipated and devoid of any sort of “pay off” for either individuals or shady groups so that they can nip down the bookies and stick it all on some old nag at Cheltenham.”

    Like boiling a frog, you don’t try to get everything all at once, LHW.

    Produce some results, rather than the usual “plant-food,” and maybe the discussion will change.

  • bpower

    Lofty mentioned “areas that feel under threat/siege” referring, I assume, to this…
    “Mr McDonald said the concerns of loyalists in Derry and North Antrim about their feelings of isolation had to be addressed by the government but he said he was more optimistic than ever before about the prospects for peace.” – u.tv

    Can anyone tell me what they’re talking about? An example maybe?

  • BP1078

    When you and your so-called comrades went round collecting money for the Provies of Sinn Fein/IRA in the bars and clubs of Boston and Irish immigrant districts of New York did you stop to think the damage you were doing to my community, the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist people?”

    Well yeah, that’s why it was done.

    At least,you’re honest Harris.

  • Comrade Stalin

    lofty:

    I did not see the UTV clip (I’ll make a point of looking out for it at 6PM) but it would be deeply unfortunate to solely concentrate on just one sentence.

    Happens all the time. They haven’t gone away, you know.

    There is a sense of unease in the Loyalist community concerning the opportunities and incentives that were handed out to Sinn Fein/IRA during this whole peace process and, in turn, there are expectations that similar schemes could transform and regenerate areas that are sorely in need of help.

    They just turned out and voted DUP in their droves. If there is unease, why don’t they take it up with the DUP MLAs they just voted in ? If they need money, why don’t they get the DUP MLAs they voted in to represent them to negotiate for it ?

    The only reason why the loyalists are in the news is because they possess guns, and have a history of using them. What do you think are the implications for society if people are to be rewarded for owning and using guns ?

  • TAFKABO

    What do you think are the implications for society if people are to be rewarded for owning and using guns ?

    Uh, at a guess, more of the same?

  • Cahal

    The loyalist weapons are unlikely to be handed in.

    If they were, they might be examined.

    I’d say more than a few could be linked to the Reverend Paisely’s favorite terrorist group, Ulster Resistance.

    And many others are ‘missing’ UDR guns.

  • Irish Republican in America

    Thanks Dread and Harris.

    I’ll just let my question stand and enjoy the actual constructive comments to the post.

  • USA

    Concerned loyalist is just wrong on so many levels.

    I find it hypocritical that the DUP can attend parties with unelected paramilitary leaders like Jackie McDonald and Andy Tyrie, yet they won’t talk to the elected representatives of Sinn Fein.

  • Miss Flood

    Many of you are being unfair to Jackie McDonald. He is the intellectual heartbeat of the UDA and deserves respect for the incisive analysis he brings to the table. That has long been recognised by Mary & Martin.

    Miss Flood

  • marty (not ingram)

    Many of you are being unfair to Jackie McDonald. He is the intellectual heartbeat of the UDA and deserves respect for the incisive analysis he brings to the table. That has long been recognised by Mary & Martin.

    Thank you Miss Flood, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all year. I assume you’re taking the piss?

  • davey

    “He is the intellectual heartbeat of the UDA and deserves respect for the incisive analysis he brings to the table”

    Post of the month – classic !!!

  • Miss Flood

    “Many of you are being unfair to Jackie McDonald. He is the intellectual heartbeat of the UDA and deserves respect for the incisive analysis he brings to the table. That has long been recognised by Mary & Martin.”

    Miss Flood

    To Marty(not Ingram) and Davey who responded to my post about Jackie McDonald’s intellectual prowess: You’re both right.

    Love to you both but, please Marty(not Ingram), don’t use that vulgar language.

    Miss Flood

  • Carnlough

    Concerned Loyalist-You should seriously reconsider your role as a UDA cheerleader,maybe you should become a comedian.How can you even take Mr McDonald seriously when his organisation has no intentions of disarming?

    Without any sort of political support they are in no position to demand concessions.Why should tax payers have to pay the UDA to part with their blood soaked guns?

    The reason why protestant working class areas are in need of regeneration is because of the UDA

  • Comrade Stalin

    The loyalist paramilitaries can’t even pretend that they have any honour. First they said they’d decommission whenever the IRA did, they welched on that. Then they said they’d decommission when the IRA said that the war was over, they also welched on that.

    Now they’re saying a combination of things; they can’t decommission while there are active dissidents (the equivalent threat didn’t stop the IRA), or until they get a suitcase full of cash from the governments. Who is going to believe them ?

  • marty (not ingram)

    Love to you both but, please Marty(not Ingram), don’t use that vulgar language.
    Erm, when someone tries to tell me that Jackie McDonald is some sort of intellectual heavyweight I think they’ll get off lightly if the only “vulgar” word I use is “piss”.

  • John East Belfast

    They got the prisoner releases the ungrateful …….

  • Dublin Exile

    I’ve just been reading the second booklet which the CTI have produced, ‘Learning from others in conflict’. This seems to be a very positive initiative within loyalism. The main points that struck me were the acceptance that for many years the UDA were reactive and working to other peoples agendas, and a determination that that now has to stop, and that loyalism has to develop the skills and people to pursue their aims politically. The other interesting feature is the emphasis placed now by loyalism on integrated education. I’d urge all Slugger posters to get their hands on it and have a look at what these guys are now talking about.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Fresh from gigs all over Ulster, Mc Aleese promotions present live at the K club………

    Jackie and the (Intellectual) Heartbeats.

  • Sean

    Most of you missed the important part of this post

    The great vain glorious Ian Paisley always said he wouldnt share a room with terrorists

    and the little wanker is sharing breakfast with them

  • marty (not ingram)

    I’ve just been reading the second booklet which the CTI have produced, ‘Learning from others in conflict’.
    Then why don’t they ‘learn from others’ and decommission and cease criminal activity?

    IMO the UPRG probably look at the Republican movement with a large degree of envy. Here was an organisation that, right or wrongly, had support from a large section of the community and political credibility.

    As much as some in the UDA/UPRG would like to be in that situation, I’m afraid it ain’t gonna happen. Why? They don’t have a mandate. Until they do, they shouldn’t get a legitimate penny from anyone.

  • Harris

    Getting back to the main question, “What did Sinn Fein and/or the IRA get?”

    Though its been made to look like they got all these concessions from the british govt, in reality, they just got what was rightfully theirs.

    The UDA never had to shed the cloak of second-class citizenship and all that it entailed.

  • Irish Republican in America

    Sean,

    Great point.

    Great hypocrisy.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    IRinA,

    You know when you hear people saying things like “black people get everything” or “immigrants get everything”? Well its a bit like that.

    Posted by bpower on Mar 15, 2007 @ 03:10 PM

    No it’s not, that’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. Slavery was only abolished 200 years ago and black people had to fight for equal rights with the white majority in countries like the United States through people like Martin Luther King on the streets and Muhammed Ali inside and outside the boxing ring.

    Contraat that with the IRA, who bombed Ulster and mainland Britain to bits and targeted other parts of Europe where there was a British military presence. They murdered and maimed thousands of innocent people in their sectarian, racist pogrom to create a white, “Irish” Aryan race within a 32-county one-party Marxist state…the UDA/UFF cannot be equated to white oppressors, and the Provies to the black minority when the IRA and their ethnic cleansing of the only-son of Protestant farming families in border areas like South Armagh mirrors that of the Bosnian Serbs’ pogrom against the Muslims…

  • Concerned Loyalist

    As it is he is just another extortionist who ruins a good suit.

    Posted by Pat Mc Larnon on Mar 15, 2007 @ 06:12 PM

    Ball and not the man…you seem to have a habit of that McLarnon, I’ve pulled you on it on a number of occasions now.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    To my comment: “When you and your so-called comrades went round collecting money for the Provies of Sinn Fein/IRA in the bars and clubs of Boston and Irish immigrant districts of New York did you stop to think the damage you were doing to my community, the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist people? Or did you, like your Shinner mates over here, just dismiss us as “settler” scumbags who were disillusioned Irishman in an identity crisis? “

    Dread Chulth replied “”**plays a small violin**”” .

    Well, to be perfectly honest with you I could easily say the same about the killings of Finucane and Hamill for example, but unlike you I feel that both communities deserve the truth and for justice to prevail…

  • marty (not ingram)

    They murdered and maimed thousands of innocent people in their sectarian, racist pogrom to create a white, “Irish” Aryan race within a 32-county one-party Marxist state…
    Past tense. And the primary objective was to get rid of the British. A 32 county socialist republic was an aspiration that I doubt anyone in the Republican movement believes will come around now. Are the voters in the South going to vote out the Celtic Tiger in favour of socialism?

    As I said – past tense. So your earlier comments about people in the UDA feeling the need to justify their existence under the dubious claim of defence are misguided at best and bogus at worst given the criminality within the loyalist paramilitary ranks.

  • marty (not ingram)

    but unlike you I feel that both communities deserve the truth and for justice to prevail…

    If you truly wish justice to prevail, then, FFS, drop this deluded support of the UDA!

  • Carnlough

    Concerned Loyalist-but unlike you I feel that both communities deserve the truth and for justice to prevail…

    Truth and justice …waht by trying to ligitimise then UDA?Get a grip

  • Tochais Síoraí

    ‘…when the IRA and their ethnic cleansing of the only-son of Protestant farming families in border areas like South Armagh mirrors that of the Bosnian Serbs’ pogrom against the Muslims…’

    Why not go the whole hog and compare it to the Holocaust while you at it?

  • latcheeco

    Concerned Loyalist

    So you call IR in A a “prick” but then Pat’s not playin the ball. Kinda sums up what Loyalism is about.

  • loftholdingswood

    Dublin Exile,

    Glad you have read the pamphlet (the latest in an ongoing series). The quotes you have read were taken verbatim from the International Workshop and show a real desire to move forward and learn (emphasis on learn) from others as well as the errors (self inflicted to some extent) of the past. I am gratified that you see potential in what is being said. To some the change is too slow, to others it is way too fast. Change worries people and destabilises fixed views and beliefs. So this will be a SLOW process, attempting to bring everyone together.

    Miss Flood is correct in her analysis and I’ll briefly explain why. To put your head above the parapet and seek a new direction is inherently dangerous.It can rankle some people and flat out enrage others. It causes jealousy and resentment. To all those debating on a message board (and Slugger is a very good one indeed) it simply means holding to a view and explaining it, arguing it around and then turning off the computer when you have had enough. It costs you nothing. When real people (not internet gossipers) put forward challenging views in public and argues them in private to a large group of people it is not a party game or a piece of fun. It is a calculated moral decision to change society and is particularly brave. All those who are quick to deride and pontificate will no doubt be as critical of Mary and Martin? After all they have seen the potential of Mr McDonald and others in that particular organisation and have taken steps (bravely again in my opinion) to show support and solidarity.

  • marty (not ingram)

    LHW,
    Miss Flood is correct in her analysis and I’ll briefly explain why.
    Calling McDonald an intellectual is classed as analysis? And you actually believe this? You’ve been taking too many of those tablets that your colleagues punt out.

    McDonald is a thug in a decent suit. Like putting a silk hat on a pig.

  • Northsider

    Looks like we’ll have to wait another 24 hours on CL getting back to us. Maybe he had to run his responses by the boys.

    And how is referring to Jackie McDonald as a gangster in a suit playing the man and not the ball.

    I’d like to see how he might sue for libel on that one in court.

    Maybe the concern which so exercises our loyalist pal would be better directed at those who’ve brought that community to its knees through extortion, drug deadling and murder.

  • latcheeco

    Northsider ,It almost makes you feel bad, not so much playin the man as man versus empty net.

  • Pablo

    Loyalists have every reason to be concerned…about loyalists expressing concerns like concerned loyalist. Nuff Said.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    CL: “Well, to be perfectly honest with you I could easily say the same about the killings of Finucane and Hamill for example, but unlike you I feel that both communities deserve the truth and for justice to prevail… ”

    Only if you ignore the fundamental differences, CL. Loyalism is not the suspect re: Finucane, the British state.

    Face it — Loyalism has almost no mandate and represents no one’s interests save their own. If we need speak specifics, the UDA and their sock-puppet of a political fig-leaf / feather — there is insufficient substance, real and metaphorical, to call it a “wing” — represent nothing other than a collection of thugs who want to belly up to the public trough.

    Likewise, Loyalism does not want “justice to prevail,” since there is too much money to be made off of drug turf and protection.

  • McDonald is a thug in a decent suit.

    That, dear boy, is not a decent suit!

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “Past tense. And the primary objective was to get rid of the British.”
    Posted by marty (not ingram) on Mar 16, 2007 @ 02:57 PM

    So the PUL community was collateral, eh?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Many of you are being unfair to Jackie McDonald. He is the intellectual heartbeat of the UDA and deserves respect for the incisive analysis he brings to the table. That has long been recognised by Mary & Martin.

    Miss Flood

    Posted by Miss Flood on Mar 16, 2007 @ 08:23 AM

    This is what I’ve been saying for a very long time now. I’m going to be frank here.
    FUCK Johnny Adair.
    FUCK Jim Gray.
    FUCK Andre and Ihab Shoukri and Alan McClean.

    None of these men were TRUE Loyalists, they were all in it for the “Benjamins” as they say in Black America. I don’t hold strong loyalist ideals and aspirations because I think my bank balance will profit from it, I believe in my cause and want to see it through to the end. If that means taking up arms and fighting for Ulster’s freedom then so be it, but at the present time I believe it is right to form a power-sharing executive with the Shinners and I want to give politics a chance…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: “Many of you are being unfair to Jackie McDonald. He is the intellectual heartbeat of the UDA and deserves respect for the incisive analysis he brings to the table. That has long been recognised by Mary & Martin.”

    In the ‘hood of the blind, the one-eyed man shall be kingpin…

    Concerned Loyalist: “I don’t hold strong loyalist ideals and aspirations because I think my bank balance will profit from it, I believe in my cause and want to see it through to the end.”

    Have you looked at the clock lately — it’s over.

    Concerned Loyalist: “If that means taking up arms and fighting for Ulster’s freedom then so be it, but at the present time I believe it is right to form a power-sharing executive with the Shinners and I want to give politics a chance.”

    Then sit down and hush, whilst the grown-ups (i.e. DUP and SF) decide if there is going to be a government, CL. With *ONE* lone exception, Loyalism has no voice in major political affairs… and that exception is not Jackie-boy.

    Loyalism was the bastard child of the BA’s “countergang” tactic, ala Kenya, and Unionist politics. Easily used, foolish enough to trust its parents and easily denied, disowned and disinherited when it suited their purposes.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Loyalism was the bastard child of the BA’s “countergang” tactic, ala Kenya, and Unionist politics. Easily used, foolish enough to trust its parents and easily denied, disowned and disinherited when it suited their purposes.

    Posted by Dread Cthulhu on Mar 21, 2007 @ 01:10 PM

    Typical republican fayre – I’ll explain….

    It is in the so-called Republican Movement’s interests to portray the Loyalists as puppets of British “Imperialism”. This de-legitimizes our ideals, aspirations and our right to defend our people from the cancer of physical-force republicanism. When they tour Colombia, Florida etc they can then point to the fact that the RA/Provos/Provies/RAfia (whatever name you want to call them) are the only indigenous body of people within the island of Ireland who are involved in the struggle as Loyalists are only puppets strung along by their MI5 handlers from London and Special Branch, a force within a force of the “sectarian”, “hostile”, “partisan” RUC/PSNI.

    This is black propaganda and couldn’t be further from the truth. It is a well-known fact that both the dissidents and the Provies have been infiltrated from the highest echelons of power down to the grassroots with SB/MI5 agents so I’m sick to the back teeth of the sheer hypocrisy of it all…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: ” This de-legitimizes our ideals, aspirations and our right to defend our people from the cancer of physical-force republicanism.”

    Actually, I figured the drug-dealing and protection rackets did that. Loyalism became a worse burden upon the community than the threat it sought to prevent, sucking the life out of the communities it putatively sought to defend.

    Concerned Loyalist: “It is a well-known fact that both the dissidents and the Provies have been infiltrated from the highest echelons of power down to the grassroots with SB/MI5 agents so I’m sick to the back teeth of the sheer hypocrisy of it all… ”

    I would have thought the obvious infiltration / co-option of Loyalism would have been enough, at least when combined with the continual battles over drug turf and the bloodless corpse Loyalist leeches have made of their areas.

    You have yet to refute the substance of my post, however. Establishing “counter-gangs” is a well-established British tactic, used in several parts of the Empire. Do you imagine, in your arrogance, that they would not do the same in Northern Ireland? Loyalism left political matters to Unionism. How has that worked out for you? They deny you from the pulpit and podium and occasionally make back-door deals, paying lip service to the needs of Loyalist neighborhoods, but seldom delivering.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Yes, it has been a successful British military tactic to arm and train groups that are sympathetic to the British and opponents of anti-British factions throughout the world, but this is the United Kingdom we’re talking about and the circumstances are fundamentally different so I repute your opinions/attempts to engage me in a slanging match…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    CL: “Yes, it has been a successful British military tactic to arm and train groups that are sympathetic to the British and opponents of anti-British factions throughout the world, but this is the United Kingdom we’re talking about and the circumstances are fundamentally different so I repute your opinions/attempts to engage me in a slanging match… ”

    Why, because Loyalists are white Protestants and not some favored minority willing to take British money and the work the British don’t want to sully their hands with? Loyalism WAS willing to do the ugly jobs for the British, few, if any, questions asked. Did you think the British were sharing intelligence out of the goodness of their hearts? Loyalism was a deniable asset, no more, no less.

    And, for the record, you have “reputed” nary a thing I have said, preferring bluster to effective counter-arguments.

    Loyalism has extorted millions from the honest folk of Northern Ireland and are lining up to demand millions more, all without a serious word on ending criminality or turning in weapons. That alone clearly states where their minds are. All protests of patriotism aside, they have degenerated into a criminal enterprise, plain and simple. To say otherwise is to deny reality.