Gerry McGeough launches his election blog…

This guy is clearly one awkward big fish for Sinn Fein to have let get way. McGeough is genial, bright and decidedly right wing. He is also committed to the peaceful transfer of Northern Ireland into a unified all island state. And he beats Sinn Fein to the draw on getting his blog out first. He has a big job on his hands to actually get a seat in Fermanagh South Tyrone. But then again, the nationalist votes down there have an unpredictable habit of confounding expectations.

  • parcifal

    Trouble is he comes across like martin ingram:

    “The best lack all conviction,
    while the worst are full of passionate intensity”
    W.B.Yeats

  • Aaron McDaid

    Does anyone else find it really difficult to read his pages? It’s black text against a really dark green. I’m using Firefox 1.04 (on Debian GNU/Linux). I can read it by selecting all the text, but I still left a comment on his blog requesting he change it.

  • Mick Fealty

    I’m seeing it as clear black text on white Aaron…

    Any chance of connecting with the ball Parci?

  • slug

    Aaron

    I use Firefox 1.5.0.9 and it comes up black text on white.

  • parcifal

    Yes Mick,
    I heard Gerry McGeough on the Radio, on an anti-SF rant , the presenter couldn’t shut him up; my alarm bells rang and I thought:

    “Hmmmn you can always tell if a person is grounded, by their conduct and the way they listen and take measurement of themselves.”

    The debate was with SF Conor Murphy, who behaved impeccably under provocation.

  • gerry

    Comes up ok with me. Plain as day, looks like a half decent blog.

  • gerry

    Parcival, any interview I heard with McGeough was a good interview. Your party bias is getting in the way of your judgement. McGeough speaks well, and is articulate.

  • I seem to be getting a load of crap on a white background.

  • parcifal

    gerry I was judging the matter on the quality of debate, not on my prefences.
    But if you disagree, great let’s hope Mick can get him on Slugger’s radio and ask some probing questions.

  • Henry94

    Good points include a willingness to take his seat if elected and a clear commitment to peaceful means. He wants to put a united Ireland on the agenda. Good.

    Added to his undoubted ability there is a strong case for electing him that wouldn’t apply to the other dissident candidates. Good luck to him.

  • No, tried it on Firefox.
    Still getting a load of crap on a white background.

  • gerry

    McGeough’s quality of debate is as good as murphy’s. He’s been on radio ulster/radio free eireann a couple of times. Hes been on talk back twice, and you are saying all these are not good debates. They were very good debates, your party bias as a sinn fein supporter is getting in the way of your judgement, putting down all opposition to them. although your own conduct has been found wanting on other blogs.

  • seabhac siulach

    The man comes across as someone out purely for his own narrow interests (so, like most politicians then…) and not those of actual republicanism, cynically hitching his wagon to the anti-policing issue while somehow having no problem with sitting in a British assembly and accepting British state money to do so.
    He claims that he will not allow any more concessions to the DUP, claiming the ‘Catholic people of the North’ have been insulted…strange choice of words for a republican, equating a religious affiliation with a political philosophy…
    I feel this is a Freudian slip as to his real agenda…that of campaigning against abortion being extended to the six counties.
    For the sake of appearances, he also includes some flim-flam about water rates, Bain report and roads to take the bare look off things.
    Real republicans who do not want to see this trojan horse opportunistic candidate in Stormont should vote for actual republican candidates (Michael McManus etc.) and not waste their vote on very recent ex-provos such as McGeough. I mean, if you want to vote for a Provo, vote for a Provo and not this anti-abortion fixated opportunist…

  • Aaron McDaid

    OK then, Maybe his page is working OK for most people. Thanks for replying everyone. Almost certainly, this is sloppy design on his part, and not the fault of any browser. I’ve done a lot of web work and it’s always a fault in the HTML, and you can’t expect browsers to be consistent when faced with flawed HTML.

  • jerryp

    His rant on the bio “Catholic 2007” is decidedly frightening.

  • gerry

    Is there a problem with being a catholic? Or standing up for catholic values?

    so lets see, so far he is a no good ex provo who will take brit money and a catholic bigot.

    there is nothing wrong with being a catholic, or standing up for your religion in times when morality is on the decline. the dup do it and they are the biggest party in the north, he is the other side of the coin, and has every right to stand up for his convictions. He is an ex provo because that is exactly what they didn’t do.

    Its about time Irish republicans who are anti sinn fein people got together and united.

  • parcifal

    well gerry I guess the difference is McGeough is standing for election and I’m not.

  • seabhac siulach

    Gerry:

    “Its about time Irish republicans who are anti sinn fein people got together and united.”

    Yes, this is true, but just being anti-Provo is hardly enough. Surely, there must be some criteria to judge why one is anti-Provo. I mean, this man only left the Provos (very recently) because of their wishy-washy Janus-faced stance on abortion…he left on that principle and that principle alone, only recently ‘discovering’ his distaste for policing (and all the other ‘concessions to the DUP’) when it was seemingly politically advantageous to do so. This man is a cuckoo in the nest of republicanism, out to promote his own narrow religious agenda, passing it off as republicanism when at best it is old-fashioned bigoted right wing catholic gombeen nationalism of the worst kind.

    No problem with being a catholic, by the way, but using that religion as some pillar of ‘republicanism’ is a sham…this man, your namesake, is a sham, out for his own narrow agenda. And to use the DUP as an example of where to go (with regards to religion in politics) is hardly a correct analogy for (I assume) a republican to use…
    You know, republicanism – uniting catholic, protestant and dissenter? Republicanism in its correct form is not, and never has been about the poor down trodden catholics who may or may not be in favour of abortion.
    If one wishes to vote for an anti-Provo candidate vote for McManus or any of the other abstentionist candidates (Peggy O’Hare, etc.).

  • Anyone think Gerry McGeough could become the Republican version of David Ervine?

    Bring in dissident Republicans from the cold and create an avennue for dissident republicans to express themselves politically rather than from armed perspective.

    If Gerry is to get anywhere he needs to be funded by some wealthy Republican who may be disillusioned with Sinn Fein??

    A wealthy family with bedrock Republican credentials?

    Just the threat of funding would really make Sinn Fein sit up and take notice.

    Money, and lots of it, are the key to political success, without which, Gerry McGeough will be just another “here today, gone tommorrow politician”

  • gerry

    SS I dunno. If Gerry left republicanism because of catholicism, it certainly isn’t showing in his broadcasts. he didn’t do gun running or time in germany because of catholicism. One would assume he did that because of his republicanism. He never lied like adams about being in the IRA, or anything else. ‘Gombeen nationalism’, I’m not sure I’d be totally against that, since thats what a lot of people believed before, one has to look no further than the guy whose name I totally forget who defended the church at the short strand. Jesus whats yer mans name, thats driving me crazy now. Is it Billy McKee? Anyway he was one of many who wore their catholicism proudly, and also socialist republicanism is only one strand of a very complex ideology. Wishy washy, I dunno I agree with that either. He’s pretty open about his beliefs, he doesn’t come accross as a man with something to hide. He’s entitled to his convictions, and he is only asking for a loan of the vote, infact on one of his broadcasts he did say to a shinner that if they played hardball with the dup and not support policing, he wouldnt stand at all.

    No McGeough comes accross as upfront. If he is a true catholic, F**k it so am I, I don’t see anything wrong with it, its my religion, and in a society especially living in a republican/nationalist society as I do, I’m entitled to freedom of speech as is mcgeough. And like McGeough I’ll defend my church as well as my country. as it is Ihave to give my vote to geraldine taylor, do I agree with RSF, hell No, but she’ll get my vote this time. its time to unify against SF.

  • marty (not ingram)

    Those who ask Irish nationalists to support and join the PSNI/RUC, and to inform upon our neighbours

    Nice crack at omerta there Gerry. Isn’t much cop (sorry) when your neighbour happens to have burgled someone, raped someone etc

    In a direct appeal to the decent, patriotic grassroots Sinn Féin voters
    Didn’t the UUP try a similar line to this? “Only decent people vote UUP…” or something? Didn’t work for them too well. Note to Gerry – don’t talk down to the electorate.

    A No. 1 vote for me is a vote for a United Ireland. Through peaceful, political means I will advocate that the demand for a 32 County Irish Republic be put firmly back on the agenda.
    Yeah? How? Maybe I’m having problems with Firefox 2.0 as it doesn’t display how’s he’s going to achieve this.

    I pledge to oppose the imposition of Water Rates
    Hot air. That ship has sailed.

  • Plum Duff

    ‘…Billy McKee? Anyway he was one of many who wore their catholicism proudly…’

    Gerry, you obviously don’t know anything about the above person. He was nothing else but a vicious, catholic bigot and I have this from people who served under his command.

    Mr McGeough also wears his catholicism for everyone to see but appeals only to those of a similar faith. Not for him the protestant or dissenter – catholics only need apply for his republic. Let’s hope the good people of FST will see through this false patina of green and vote for a party or parties with forward thinking views and not those of the reactionary past.

    And to hear him talk of ‘poor downtrodden catholics’… My heart bleeds at these crocodile tears from this overfed, over-egoed, working teacher, newspaper owner and small farmer. Sure, what the hell – another job will hardly be noticed.

    This man is a catholic fundamentalist and, to me, they are every bit as scary as their counterparts in the FP’s.

    Flat-earthers of the world, unite!

  • slug

    “My heart bleeds at these crocodile tears from this overfed, over-egoed, working teacher, newspaper owner and small farmer. Sure, what the hell – another job will hardly be noticed.”

    Something in this sentence makes me think he might do quite well at this election business. Could he be the upset of 2007?

  • marty (not ingram)

    Could he be the upset of 2007?
    Well – it could be that there’s a section of the catholic electorate who are as conservative as the Free P’s and they see in Gerry someone who can protect and promote their religous interests.

    Hopefully they’ll view him as the right-wing nut job he is.

  • Henry94

    seabhac siulach

    If one wishes to vote for an anti-Provo candidate vote for McManus or any of the other abstentionist candidates (Peggy O’Hare, etc.).

    Because it’s a PR election you can vote for them all. I hope all republicans despite the many serious differences that exist will not stop at 1 or 2 or 3 but vote in preference for every republican and nationalist on the ballot paper.

  • rapunsel

    I didn’t realise people like McGeough still existed. He’s like a caricature of himself. We can all take cold comfort ( whatever our opinions on SF) from the fact that Gerry will be roundly trounced in the election and hopefully that will be the last we hear of him

  • Aaron McDaid

    Henry94,
    I hope all republicans despite the many serious differences that exist will not stop at 1 or 2 or 3 but vote in preference for every republican and nationalist on the ballot paper.

    Then again, many republicans might think this guy is such a theocratic nut, they’ll give him a lower preference than some of the unionists. A theocracy is a theocracy, and I’ll never vote for one, no matter which faction of Christianity is involved.

  • Good to see i am not the only one who noticed this crap.
    Roll on the election’s.
    Somehow i don’t think divine intervention will help this edget.

  • Stevo

    Got a feeling McGeough might do best of the “dissidents” (sic). Could be completely wrong, but there could be a Green Catholic Nationalist constituency out there even today (Dana didn’t do badly electorally….). McGeough’s military “stripes” won’t do harm and he is more articulate than most of the SF rejectionists, whether one agrees with him or thinks he is off the wall

  • John East Belfast

    I wonder how he squares the Catholic Church’s positive view on the PSNI with his own position and staunchly held Catholic views ?

    i tried to ask on his own blog but doesnt seem easy to post on it ?

  • Henry94

    JEB

    I think Gerry is a supporter of the SSPX which is outside the control of the Vatican. He would have about as much respect for the views of the Irish Bishops as he would for the Sinn Fein leadership.

  • which is outside the control of the Vatican

    I think you mean in schism?

  • With the election over and Gerry finding himself in the political wilderness, I’m sure there would be a home for him in Opus Dei.
    Sure they would love (whip) him to bits.

  • Henry94

    Chris

    They are in an irregular situation but it’s less than Schism. This very month in an interview Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” said “The Bishops, Priests, and Faithful of the Society of St Pius X are not schismatics”

    There are high hopes that their situation may soon be resolved.

    pól

    Opus Dei would be conservative rather than traditionalist. They would put a far higher value on obedience to Papal authority than the SSPX would.

  • challenger

    To a Unionist like myself, McGeough comes over as a cross between the Pope and Che. I remember him being interviewed by Peter Taylor on his PROVOS series and he came across as a very calm and unflappable, committed Republican. I might not share his views but he seemed pretty sincere if nowt else. Still, he’s on a loser I think as some of his comments make him sound like a nutjob which just aint appealing to the electorate. I dare say the Shinners aren’t in a panic about him. RSF have lost out too by not registering as a party in time. I recall that happening to the UDP just before they disappeared off the map. As for McGeough, I think if he had kept to secular political arguments, he may have done better.

  • Henry is there not a serious issue with SSPX and the granting of Marriage Annulments?

    It seems there are also problems with SSPX Imposing Censures on Laypeople, Performing Exorcisms and Changing the Liturgy.

    I may be wrong but it looks schismatic

    There are high hopes that their situation may soon be resolved

    To what ends?

  • BeardyBoy

    Chris – you are wrong – they are not schismatics. I also attend the SSPX Masses – wonderful priests and very committed to their people – a lot of black propaganda is written about them.

    Any way having said that I would support McGeough fully.

    My friends in SF are rattled when they discuss things with me but I have been warning them about their anti-Catholic policies for some time.

    I would expect McGeough to do tolerably well in his first outing but remember it has taken SF over 20 years to get were they are today.

    As for the socialist republicans — I for one would fight tootah and nail to stop Ireland becoming socialist

  • Rory

    Now what, I wonder, would the bold McGeough do if he got his way and abortion was criminalised in Northern Ireland? He could not “inform” on those illegally procuring abortion to the PSNI as that would offend his principles. He could not “kneecap” them as he has firmly committed himself to peaceful means.

    That leaves two options – he could either scold them for being very naughty indeed or, I suppose, as a good self-professed Christian, he could pray for them. What do his supporters suggest?

  • lapsedmethodist

    There must be someone out there who knows. Did yer man turn up at Wolf Tones grave? And if he did, did anyone hear a faint spinning sound?

  • Picador

    Is Gerry McGeough Mel Gibson in disguise?

  • Wilde Rover

    From Catholic Power in 2007

    “If they do not toe the Catholic line on any of these issues then they do not deserve our vote and should be so informed.”

    This is the type of Vatican stoopery that has always been a cancerous growth in republicanism.

    Anyone who votes for this guy can surrender all claims to being a republican.

  • Henry94

    Chris

    It wasn’t the SSPX who changed the liturgy. They still use the 1962 missal, the beautiful Mass of all time.

    The reason for seeking a resolution to the problem is because about 1 million Catholics world-wide attend an SSPX Mass. Rome needs them back and they need to come back.

    Nor can the SSPX impose censures on Laypeople. It doesn’t have lay members. It is a society of Priests. Lay people can attend the Mass but do not join the SSPX.

    There are only three issues in the way of resolving the problem. Rome needs to clarify the position of the Mass by making it clear that every Priest has the right to say the old Mass. And the excommunication of the SSPX Bishops needs to be lifted.

    For their part the SSPX have to accept Vatican II. Not the abuses that followed but the decisions of the Council.

    The Pope and Bisop Fellay of the SSPX have met and are working to resolve the problem

  • Rubicon

    Since the remit of the Assembly concerns social, health, educational and economic development issues McGeough – far from opposing the DUP – is more likely to find himself in the same voting lobbies as them.

  • middle-class taig

    There is a concern over McGeogh being ideologically closer to Paisley than Adams. But the more pressing danger I see from a republican perspective is the medium-term electoral one. Arlene Foster will take another four or five thousand votes in FST in the next Westminster elections. If Gildernew loses much in the way of support, she’s in diffs. If McGeogh gets elected, or even if he gets reasonably close, he’ll have to run for Westminster to protect his voter-base. In which case, Michelle’s toast! Obviously, that would then kill McGeough, and SF would have the seat back five years later, but it’s still a consideration, as it would be a travesty for the DUP to hold Bobby Sands’ seat.

  • BeardyBoy

    Rory

    “Now what, I wonder, would the bold McGeough do if he got his way and abortion was criminalised in Northern Ireland? He could not “inform” on those illegally procuring abortion to the PSNI as that would offend his principles. He could not “kneecap” them as he has firmly committed himself to peaceful means.”

    Obviously Rory you are a deep thinker, what would be the lesser evil and do that. McGeogh gave a good analogy, I will try to repeat it faithfully, and you may understand it better, if you see something on fire and you have an old leaky bucket will you use it to put out the flames? And would you not then resolve yourself to getting a good bucket in case you would have a need for it again?

    Fire = crime
    Bucket = RUC/PSNI
    New Bucket = proper policing

  • BeardyBoy

    “There is a concern over McGeogh being ideologically closer to Paisley than Adams. But the more pressing danger I see from a republican perspective is the medium-term electoral one. Arlene Foster will take another four or five thousand votes in FST in the next Westminster elections. If Gildernew loses much in the way of support, she’s in diffs. If McGeogh gets elected, or even if he gets reasonably close, he’ll have to run for Westminster to protect his voter-base. In which case, Michelle’s toast! Obviously, that would then kill McGeough, and SF would have the seat back five years later, but it’s still a consideration, as it would be a travesty for the DUP to hold Bobby Sands’ seat.”

    Funny – I seem to recall Haughey having the same problem with an organisation who he believed cost him an election. Wonder who that was now – just around the time of the Hunger strikes and I think they had only entered elections – damn spoilers – who would have them?

  • BeardyBoy

    “This is the type of Vatican stoopery that has always been a cancerous growth in republicanism.

    Anyone who votes for this guy can surrender all claims to being a republican.”

    Since the Masonic influenced Republican cuckoo entered Ireland this has been the case – you have always failed Ireland and you always will.

    Why do you think the Defenders left the United Irishmen before the Battle of Ballynahinch – because they were not Catholic and did not give a damn about the Catholic people – they were middle class revolutionaries who were only out for themselves at the expense of the peasantry and workers.

    I am glad to be a thorn in the side of their political descendants

  • That Hibernian article is great:

    “Unless Independent candidates, sound on Catholic issues and the National question, go forward in the election (which may yet be the case), then Catholics across the Six-Counties should simply spoil their votes. This can be done by writing Jesus, Mary and Joseph or simply JMJ in large letters on the ballot paper. That should give the freemasons who count these things something to ponder.”

    Writing JMJ on a ballot paper? Jesus, Mary and holy St. Joseph! And if the freemasons are as pro-liberalism and all-powerful as they think, can I join please?

    As beardyboy says, McGeough is only beginning his electoral career. Perhaps, tomorrow belongs to him.

  • lapsedmethodist

    During the “kill Home Rule with kindness ” phase of English policy towards Ireland, Freemasons were used to undertake projects which would earn the displeasure of the Ascendancy, ie projects which would benefit catholics or make poor protestants less dependant on paternalism. The idea being that they – the Freemasons – would be able to soak up the hostility of the ruling class. What the Knights were doing….I don’t know.

  • John East Belfast

    Sammy Morse

    “McGeough is only beginning his electoral career. Perhaps, tomorrow belongs to him.”

    Are you mad – yesterday – infact somewhere in the last Millenium belongs to him.

    Indeed I would say he is more backward than Paisley.

    He is also the kind of “papish Jesuit stormtrooper” type the Free P’s liked to frighten Protestant children with when I was growing up.

    “Dont let them get their breath around you” etc -I never met one nor thought they really existed until I started delving into what this guy is saying.

    Give this guy 10 minutes before a decent probing reporter and he will be seen to be shallow on practical policy and deep on sinister.

    I have more confidence in the nationalist electorate to think their future lies in the like of him

  • Rory

    The lesser evil, to my mind, Beardy Boy, if an expectant mother determined to abort despite all exhortation, would be to exercise the Christian option of love and use all my efforts to ensure that, having made that choice, she could do so with the best safeguards for her own physical, psychological and spiritual well being. Or is that too much Christianity for right wing Catholic fundamentalists?

  • Lapsedmethodist

    John East Belfast. ” I have more faith in the nationalist electorate…. ” in Fermanagh/South Tyrone? That’s “Deliverance” country. Minus the good banjos.

  • circles

    God save us from religious fundaMENTALISTS.
    An awkward big fish? Hmmmmm, I’m not so sure his brand of altar rail chewing fire and brimstone is really of any broad appeal to republicans on the whole.
    Personally I would rather vote Alliance than give a vote to the blue shirts.

  • BeardyBoy

    “The lesser evil, to my mind, Beardy Boy, if an expectant mother determined to abort despite all exhortation, would be to exercise the Christian option of love and use all my efforts to ensure that, having made that choice, she could do so with the best safeguards for her own physical, psychological and spiritual well being. Or is that too much Christianity for right wing Catholic fundamentalists?”

    Well I presume the police thing has been accepted as it was not answered. This of course has nothing to do with the subject matter but anyway to address the situation the greater good is to allow the child and mother to survive by giving her all the care that she requires but then that would cost money and is that too much for you socialists to deal with?

  • gerry

    Socialism is nothing more than a wet dream, its been tried and tested and failed. Useless ideology if ever there was one.

  • BeardyBoy

    right wing – blueshirts – hardly think so – if you knew anything outside your own propaganda you would know both socialism and capitalism holds no gra for me.

    These guys, http://www.politicalcompass.org/, reckon I am

    Economic Left/Right: -1.75
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.05

    Clearly very middle of the road unlike you extremists

  • circles

    hehehe I love it when people try to back pedal once they’ve realised their position is seriously flawed.
    I’d rather trust my own poltical instincts though when it comes to assessing candidates, rather than an online questionnaire straight out of the pages of Marie-Claire.
    But honestly – how can you square right wing ultra-conservative catholic
    values with the claim of being a republican?
    Whats the position on the Proclamation of Independence? Should that have had more of an arch-catholic slant?

  • Personally I would rather vote Alliance than give a vote to the blue shirts

    We’ll keep working on you, cricles. In another few years you’ll be hosting a wine and cheese evening for us.

  • circles

    hehehe – fair enough Sammy 😉 But as abysmal as I find the alliance party, this particular candidates policies I find worse, and it’ll take more than few decades of the rosary to bring me round to that. The conversion would make Saul on the Damascus road look like he had a slight change of plan.
    Still – no reply on the Proclamation question. Should it have read “Irish Catholic Men andtheir subservient women”?

  • circles

    Hold on – let me clarify – not so much all the policies but some of the key ones that would indicate the candidate would like nothing more than the Popetastic Republic of Ireland.

  • BeardyBoy

    McGeough is not a right wing ultra-conservative – this was explained earlier by someone however you do not seem to be able to comprehend anything which does not fit into your own propaganda.

    McGeough is a distributist judging by his writings and therefore will not fir into your left/right analysis.

    He also seems to be a traditionalist Catholic not a conservative Catholic.

    I have never read Marie-Claire – I will accept your advantage on me there.

    If you are trying to defame the authors of that site I think that you are grasping at straws, just look at the comments from the people on their comments page – I feel that as far as political science is concerned they would be more reputable than you, so keep trusting your own instinct I am sure your ignorance is bliss for you.

    Republicanism is a concept that covers many political stances – from Cromwell to Stalin for example. Why do you think that only socialists are republican?

    Proclamation of Independance
    We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God. Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, in humanity, or rapine. In this supreme hour the Irish nation must, by its valour and discipline and by the readiness of its children to sacrifice themselves for the common good, prove itself worthy of the august destiny to which it is called.

    Seems good to me

  • John East Belfast

    beardboy

    “Well I presume the police thing has been accepted as it was not answered.”

    Re your leaky bucket scenrio

    Let’s say somebody sees their neighbour loading what looks like a very large bomb onto the back of a lorry.
    A few others are messing around with balaclavas and guns.
    You dont need to be Jack Bauer to suspect a bomb is about to be sent somewhere.

    Then considering that the most atrocious act of abortion to occur on Irish soil in living memory happened to the unborn twins at Omagh are you going to tell me the police should not be ‘Informed’ about this matter ?

    As you seem to agree with Mr McGeough are you telling me that considering his strident Catholic views – especially on abortion – he is not going to do all in his power to stop such another atrocity ? – ie phone the police ?

    Would you not phone the police and inform on such noble Irish patriots ?

  • BeardyBoy

    I would not if

    1 I am satisfied that the target is not innocent people

    2 It is against a legitimate target

    3 Was being done by competent people

  • John East Belfast

    Well I am sure the bastards who planted the Omagh bomb thought they were satisfied with the above.

    But even you cant be sure – especially with the benefit of hindsight.

    Any if you didnt know the people you certainly cant be sure.

    The only thing you can be sure about is that there is a very high chance that people are going to be maimed or mutilated. And a chance a pregnant woman will be involved

    However let’s take your perverse logic further.

    What about a pregnant PSNI officer guarding a police station – is she and her unborn child a legitimate target ?

  • BeardyBoy

    If she wants to put her child into the line of fire it is her fault for being so irresponsible – she must know that she is a legitimate target and so she must carry the blame.

    Why not ask me about our poor young English boys who are only doing a job and sure what do they know about Ireland?

  • John East Belfast

    beardyboy

    But you have a chance to save a life here – an innocent life.

    Should it be held responsible for the actions of its mother ?

    Isnt that what the anti abortion lobby is all about ?

    The life of the child is paramount to the mother’s preferences ?

    So you are telling me you have the chance to choose to protect an innocent unborn child but because of your preferences you will choose to protect a gang of bombers ?

    Tell me what is the difference between you and the Pro Abortion lobby ?

  • BeardyBoy

    John

    Your arguement has now shifted to me having prior knowledge of the events about to unravel – I am afraid clairvoyance is not a forte of mine.

    The responsibility is clearly those who place the child in the position where its life is in danger – they have caused its death – they are the only ones who have clear knowledge of the likely outcome.

    The attacking soldiers have no reason to presume the enemy would be so callous as to put their children in a position of danger

  • SuperSoupy

    I thought McGeogh had rejected armed struggle? Seems some are going to claim his vote as endorsement of war in addition to an endorsement of conservative Catholic views.

    Even the IRSP and ‘concerned Republicans’ won’t endorse this man.

    Hopefully his failure at the ballot box will assist in convincing our neighbours that Republicans aren’t a bunch of sectarian hate-mongers like this (can I say nut?) religious extremist.

  • BeardyBoy

    I do not think he has rejected armed struggle – I would argue that he has rejected it as a way to achieve Irish freedom at this stage.

    Would any Irishman deny the Irish people – or any other peoples, the right to fight for freedom?

    He has no control over what others, such as myself, may claim on his behalf any more than anyone else can. His views, once again, are not Conservative catholic more Traditionalist Catholic, please learn the difference.

    If Marxist nutters, such as the IRSP do not support him so what, it only endorses his analysis. His success will convince the English that they have no future here

  • Wilde Rover

    “…they were middle class revolutionaries who were only out for themselves at the expense of the peasantry and workers.

    I am glad to be a thorn in the side of their political descendants.”

    Most successful revolutions begin with and were led by disaffected elements of the middle classes.

    Lloyd George commented negotiating with de Valera was like “trying to pick up mercury with a fork” and the original Celtic Tiger Michael Collins “created” an economically independent state virtually on his own through knowledge gleaned working in financial London.

    And this followed down to the officers, who were by and large the best educated volunteer available.

    You don’t seriously think the then superpower the British Empire could have been forced to the negotiating table through “peasant power” alone, do you?

    Of course, then the dream ended and seventy years of dreadful Rome Rule were to follow for the south. And people like McGeough had their day in the sun and instead of waiting for word from London we waited for word from Rome.

    And this papist banana republic, in thrall to its masters, the neo-Constantines, languished in economic and social torpor.

    Until the 1990s and the Celtic Tiger Cultural Revolution, baby.

    This “Catholic backlash” is merely the death spasm of the Papist Republic (circa 1920-1990).

  • Wilde Rover

    “We have been threatened that unless we acknowledge that homosexuals be treated as normal married people with the ?right? to adopt defenceless little children, we will be subject to legal censure”

    Even to this day the Catholic Church is trying to weasel its way out of compensation to children abused under their care and with their knowledge.

    It is sickening that they are still bringing out the bogus “homosexual bogeymen” in an effort to distract from the very real collusion of the hierarchy in the protection of a 2,000 year old paedophile network.

  • John East Belfast

    beardyboy

    For clarification are you saying that in March 2007 dissident republicans are justified in carrying out acts of violence to achieve a British withdrawel from the six counties ?
    Also if the deaths of non crown forces occur, such as on a scale of Omagh, they are regrettable but still not a reason for such violence to end.

    Also unlike McGeough you do not believe Ireland should be united by solely peaceful means ?

  • Briso

    Posted by BeardyBoy on Feb 20, 2007 @ 12:42 AM

    >If she wants to put her child into the line of
    >fire it is her fault for being so irresponsible ->she must know that she is a legitimate target
    >and so she must carry the blame.

    Put that in your Party Election Broadcast BB. I’m sure you and Gerry will romp home. Pro-life my ass.

  • Henry94

    If you were to follow an informed Catholic conscience it would make no difference whether or not the policewoman was pregnant. You would be obliged to act to save her life if it was in your power to do so.

  • I Wonder

    I wonder does anyone remember an interview with a “dissident” a few months after Omagh when they talked about restarting things gradually again, (not allowing themselves to be put off by the small matter of 29 adult dead and 2 babies):

    land mine here, “bit of commercial” there.

    “Get something in the back of a Land Rover: “That’d be lights out for everyone.””

    I wonder who said that to the Irish News.?

  • marty (not ingram)

    BeardyBoy says –
    These guys, http://www.politicalcompass.org/, reckon I am

    Economic Left/Right: -1.75
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.05

    Clearly very middle of the road unlike you extremists

    and also

    If she wants to put her child into the line of fire it is her fault for being so irresponsible – she must know that she is a legitimate target and so she must carry the blame.

    I would sit that online test again if I were you. “Middle of the road” people don’t tend to justify violence as you have.

  • Aaron McDaid

    Back to the subject to McGeogh… Beardyboy was saying he was a tradionalist Catholic, not a conservative Catholic. What’s the difference in terms of what it means for McGeogh’s policies? Is a tradionalist more likely to want a theocracy?

  • BeardyBoy

    “If you were to follow an informed Catholic conscience it would make no difference whether or not the policewoman was pregnant. You would be obliged to act to save her life if it was in your power to do so.”

    Not according to Aquinas

  • BeardyBoy

    “I would sit that online test again if I were you. “Middle of the road” people don’t tend to justify violence as you have.”

    How do they justify it then?

  • circles

    BeardyBoy – I’m not sure if you’re absolutely serious or just have a very dark sense of humour. I fear its the former but really hope its the latter.
    By the way – the proclamation indeed has a slight whiff of religion about it, however I would contend that its a long way off McGeogh’s “Catholic Power” fantasies. Indeed pushing for any kind of religious supremacy is way outside the republican spirit of 1916.

    And egarding Marie-Claire – C’mon now big lad, we know ye’ve had a peek, even if its onlywhile in the dentist’s waiting room. Or maybe for traditional catholics its a mortal sin for men to look at women’ magazines.

  • BeardyBoy

    “Most successful revolutions begin with and were led by disaffected elements of the middle classes”

    You cannot rely on the working class to do anything these days – typical

    “Lloyd George commented negotiating with de Valera was like “trying to pick up mercury with a fork” and the original Celtic Tiger Michael Collins “created” an economically independent state virtually on his own through knowledge gleaned working in financial London.”

    You don’t say

    “And this followed down to the officers, who were by and large the best educated volunteer available”

    Glad to hear it

    “You don’t seriously think the then superpower the British Empire could have been forced to the negotiating table through “peasant power” alone, do you?”
    No – I would have thought English public opinion played its part

    “Of course, then the dream ended and seventy years of dreadful Rome Rule were to follow for the south. And people like McGeough had their day in the sun and instead of waiting for word from London we waited for word from Rome.”
    And this papist banana republic, in thrall to its masters, the neo-Constantines, languished in economic and social torpor.”
    Neo-Constantines, in thrall – wow good stuff, nonesense but good nonesense. The Church was not responsible for economic policy – it perhaps was Collins if we follow your posting – but I would not believe that either. Here we had a fledgling nation making its mistakes – and it was also a victim of English economic terrorism.

    If it was not for the Church providing the services – as it still does on the cheap- it would have collapsed – you have a lot to thank the Church for.

    Until the 1990s and the Celtic Tiger Cultural Revolution, baby.
    What goes up -Sir

    This “Catholic backlash” is merely the death spasm of the Papist Republic (circa 1920-1990).
    Posted by Wilde Rover on Feb 20, 2007 @ 06:07 AM

    We shall see

  • BeardyBoy

    “beardyboy

    For clarification are you saying that in March 2007 dissident republicans
    are justified in carrying out acts of violence to achieve a British
    withdrawel from the six counties ?

    No – I think at this time is cannot be justified from a moral point of view.

    Also if the deaths of non crown forces occur, such as on a scale of Omagh, they are regrettable but still not a reason for such violence to end.

    This is a complex problem – it is entirely situational and would depend on a number of variants

    Also unlike McGeough you do not believe Ireland should be united by solely
    peaceful means ?”

    That is true

  • BeardyBoy

    Sorry Misread the above – I believe that Ireland should be united peacefully.

  • Henry94

    BeardyBoy

    Not according to Aquinas

    Care to back that up.

    Arron

    The Conservatives have an exaggerated view of Papal Authority and tend to blind obedience. Traditionalists expect the Pope to uphold tradition.

    In terms of theocracy neither would support it per se but both would vote for Catholic teacing. If there was a believing Catholic majority then that would be reflected in politics just as the believing liberal majority in now.

  • BeardyBoy

    henry – I was referring to Aquinas acceptance of war and the inevitable death that results

    I agree with the rest of the post – Traditionalists would be aware of the Doctrine of the Two Swords so we would not let the Church interfere were it has no authority

  • BeardyBoy

    “By the way – the proclamation indeed has a slight whiff of religion about it, however I would contend that its a long way off McGeogh’s “Catholic Power” fantasies. Indeed pushing for any kind of religious supremacy is way outside the republican spirit of 1916.”

    What – with Pearse involved – I beg to differ.

    “And egarding Marie-Claire – C’mon now big lad, we know ye’ve had a peek, even if its onlywhile in the dentist’s waiting room.”
    No – I have not – the wife does not even read those magazines – we would not have those sort of mags in our house

    “Or maybe for traditional catholics its a mortal sin for men to look at women’ magazines”
    It can be a venial sin that is for sure

  • John East Belfast

    Beardyboy

    “For clarification are you saying that in March 2007 dissident republicans
    are justified in carrying out acts of violence to achieve a British
    withdrawel from the six counties ?

    No – I think at this time is cannot be justified from a moral point of view.”

    I wish you would make your mind up.
    I asked you earlier if you saw your neighbour loading an Omagh type bomb into a lorry would you phone the police and you said you wouldnt.

    You cant have it both ways.

    You cant say you believe dissident violence is immoral and then say you will do nothing to stop it.

    You cant say you are pro life and then say that some child blown to bit in its mother’s womb is the mother’s fault for being where she shouldnt.

    I have no doubt if some 16 year old rape victim was wanting an abortion you would not be hand wringing with such moral doubt about the wrongness of abortion – would you ?

  • The Dubliner

    “You cant say you believe dissident violence is immoral and then say you will do nothing to stop it.” – John East Belfast

    He can. A moral system is an aspirational set of guidelines that govern how a person aspires to behave in situations where the guidelines are deemed applicable. As Beardy said: the assessment is situational. Further, a person’s actions, where inconsistent with expectations created by the aspirational set of guidelines, do not serve as refutation of it. Example: you may believe that it is morally wrong that a child should die of hunger every five seconds. This belief creates an expectation that you would act in a manner that is consistent with it i.e. liquidate your assets, and give the money to charities that will feed said children, thereby saving dozens of starving children from death. Yet, you do not do this. So, you know see how you can still believe in the moral correctness of something without acting in a manner which serves that aim. We all know that we could sell that second computer and do without that home Internet connection, knowing that the money could be used to save life, yet we really don’t give a shit, do we? Morality is aspirational, and hypocrisy afflicts us all.

  • Wasn’t it Martin Luther who devised the Two Swords principle.

  • The Dubliner

    Luther’s dialectical morality is the preference of monarchies and of those who believe in the absolute power of the state. Republicans, unsurprisingly, take a diametrically opposing view.

    Religion hasn’t helped moral systems. It seeks to assign the status of divine truth to what are, essentially, a loose confederation of aspirational principles.

  • Crataegus

    Evil triumphs when good men step aside.

  • John East Belfast

    The Dubliner

    when in a corner create a smoke screen by talking complete bollocks – LOL

    It is very simple – Omagh type bomb being loaded into a lorry in your neighbours back yard – do you phone the police when you consider Dissident violence to be morally wrong ?

    I wont entertain your pseudo philosophical nonsense other than to say that no such argument holds when you have it in your power to make the difference.

  • The Dubliner

    John, you do “have it in your power to make the difference” in the example od starving childern that I gave. I assume you have followed your own moral imperative and done so? 😉

    My own view is simple: violence that furthers the aim of national self-determination (as defined in the first article of the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights) and doesn’t violate the Geneva Convention (i.e. doesn’t target innocent civilians) is justifiable if it is likely to be successful. I add the ‘end must justify the means’ appendix, but that isn’t mandatory as the right to national self-determination is inalienable to every person (and a matter for his or her conscious).

    At this point, violence is no longer justifiable. If I personally had information about any planned attack on civilian targets, I would pass that information along to the Gardai. If someone was bombing a legitimate target, I wouldn’t.

  • John East Belfast

    The Dubliner

    “At this point, violence is no longer justifiable”

    and

    “If someone was bombing a legitimate target, I wouldn’t.”

    How can you say both of those things in the same paragraph ?

    Also how would anyone know if it was ‘legitimate’ – which of course if they thought it was ‘morally wrong’ and ‘no longer justified’ is a difficult view to hold at the same time anyway – The past form of Dissident Republicans is not very good – unreliable for many reasons.

    You seem to be saying it is wrong in your eyes but hell if somebody else thinks it is ok then fair play to them.

    We are not talking about life style choices here but life and death itself and you appear to have a very casual disreguard for the lives of others.

    Also would you phone the Gardai if you know the first thing they will do is phone the PSNI ?

    Basically you are happy for others to plant the bomb and others to do the informing so long as you can wash your hands of it – what a coward !

  • BeardyBoy

    For clarification are you saying that in March 2007 dissident republicans
    are justified in carrying out acts of violence to achieve a British
    withdrawel from the six counties ?

    No – I think at this time is cannot be justified from a moral point of view.”

    I wish you would make your mind up.
    I asked you earlier if you saw your neighbour loading an Omagh type bomb into a lorry would you phone the police and you said you wouldnt.

    You cant have it both ways.

    You cant say you believe dissident violence is immoral and then say you will do nothing to stop it.
    In this instance I have the choice of informing to a bunch of foreign invaders and possibly causing the deaths of Irish men or allowing those same Irish men strike against the forces of the immoral occupation of of Ireland – however ineffective that may be – no contest – I will let them proceed.

    You cant say you are pro life and then say that some child blown to bit in its mother’s womb is the mother’s fault for being where she shouldnt.

    No – I am saying it is her fault if whe willingly puts the child in this position – entirely different

    I have no doubt if some 16 year old rape victim was wanting an abortion you would not be hand wringing with such moral doubt about the wrongness of abortion – would you ?

    no I would not

  • BeardyBoy

    “Wasn’t it Martin Luther who devised the Two Swords principle.
    Posted by Sammy Morse on Feb 20, 2007 @ 11:30 PM”

    The doctrine of the “two swords,” which states that the separate sabres of secular and sacred power jointly govern man, gained ascendancy early in Western history and dictated the political and religious structure of pre-Reformation Europe. While much controversy punctuated the development of this thesis, most disputants generally assumed that both the state and the church would be public and complementary entities, although the consensus quickly collapsed in deciding which of the two merited preeminence. As the fifth-century pontiff, St. Gelasius I, outlined, “There are two powers…by which this world is chiefly ruled, namely, the sacred authority of the priests (auctoritas sacrata pontificum) and the royal power (regalis potestas).” St. Gelasius elevated the clerical auctoritas over the regal potestas, but still clearly discerned a distinctness and independence to each of those corresponding jurisdictions. The king—the public authority—was charged with the governance of peoples’ actions, while the priests—the representatives of God—with the governance of peoples’ souls. Ideally imagined, there could be a harmony between these two swords and their separate responsibilities, one that would not devolve into tyranny.

  • BeardyBoy

    Dubliner – for the most part I agree – but I would rely on the writings of Aquinas concerning a just war rather on the the geneva convention.

  • The Dubliner

    “At this point, violence is no longer justifiable”

    and

    “If someone was bombing a legitimate target, I wouldn’t.”

    How can you say both of those things in the same paragraph ?

    How can I not make those two statements in the same paragraph? They are entirely consistent. If you understood what I wrote, you would note that I said that moral systems are not universal truths or laws but are “a loose confederation of aspirational principles.” In case that doesn’t make clear that the application of such an arbitrary and subjective system “is situational,” maybe this will help with the required clarity: “A moral system is an aspirational set of guidelines that govern how a person aspires to behave in situations where the guidelines are deemed applicable.” So, you see (hopefully), that “the assessment is situational” and entirely dependent on both the person making the assessment and on the situation. The assessment that I make is my assessment alone and is not to be confused with a precedent that is binding upon all others. This is why I said that any imperatives derived from whatever moral system a person applies (take your pick from many) is “a matter for his or her conscious.”

    It’s simple to understand when you take the time to read what is actually written rather than attempt to superimpose your own meaning on the text, isn’t it?

    You seem to be saying it is wrong in your eyes but hell if somebody else thinks it is ok then fair play to them.

    Bingo! Now if you accepted that before you wrote the above, you’d avoided seeing contradictions where none exist. Child, moral systems are merely “guidelines” which seek to govern actions; not mathematical truths or religious gospels which preachers seek to “assign the status of divine truth” to, nor are they to be confused with other systems which seek to govern behaviour such as law.

    We are not talking about life style choices here but life and death itself and you appear to have a very casual disregard for the lives of others.

    Have you sold your computer for the high moral purpose of “life and death itself” and used the money to save those starving children from imminent death in the example I gave earlier? No? Then, kindly hush your inappropriate tone of moral superiority, hypocrite.

    Also would you phone the Gardai if you know the first thing they will do is phone the PSNI ?

    I don’t recognise the legitimacy of any part of British occupation in Ireland. Giving information about planned murder of civilians to the authorities is an action that my conscious compels. That said, since I’ve yet to have fore-knowledge of any crime (even a sinister plan to steal my dustbin), the situation is entirely hypothetical. It is better that the British police be used for some solid purpose, as I may not accept them as legitimate but I don’t confuse that with pretending that they don’t exist. 😉

    Basically you are happy for others to plant the bomb and others to do the informing so long as you can wash your hands of it – what a coward !

    So, you would rather I planted bombs myself, would you? No thanks, I’m too busy making lots of money in the Celtic Tiger. See, this is confirmation that you are not serious about the moral issues here: you are merely seizing upon the issue to berate republicans. If a republican exercises his or her conscious and reports a planned violation of the Geneva convention (murder of civilians), you only see an opportunity to squeal “tout” and “informer,” not grasping how you betray your own duplicity and degenerate mentality in the process. You also fail to grasp that a majority of republicans never supported attacks on civilians, so there is no inconsistency there, either. My view (repeated because you’re a slow learner) is that the right to national self-determination is inalienable to every person and that it is matter for his or her conscious if he or she chooses to use force to assert that right against an occupying force. If they do choose to use force, they must not use force against targets that are not legitimate (i.e. not economic, political, or military). By the way, I am not a spokesperson for anyone except myself, so don’t invest so much emotion into your tirades. You’ll give yourself high blood pressure. 😉

  • qubol

    Mick: “And he beats Sinn Fein to the draw on getting his blog out first.”

    But as we have discussed – blogs are worthless possibly even damaging when you launch it for the sake of having a blog presence and dont bother updating. over 2 weeks and no updates – what’s the betting nothing will be updated before the election (unless someone reads this)

  • BeardyBoy

    See he has got so SF – They have released a statement that they are against the extension of the Abortion Act here – first blood to McGeough – they must be getting jittery down in FST – thye reds are on the retreat – the immortal green is on the rise he he