Northern Ireland: world capital for bigotry…

Picked this up from TCAL. It’s originally drawn from a University of Ulster paper, but they got it from the Belfast Telegraph originally. The acid test of the study relates to a single question. “Would you like to have persons from this group as your neighbours?” They were given just five possible answers: people from another race, immigrants or foreign workers, Muslims, Jews, homosexuals. In the end (by these indices at least), Northern Ireland’s ultra conservative society beats Greece (by one percentage point) to become ‘Bigot Capital of the World’.

Interestingly the major ‘victims’ are gay (over 80% of bigoted persons in Northern Ireland and Canada and 75% of bigots in Austria, the USA, Great Britain, Ireland and Italy would not want homosexuals as neighbours). This from Pink News:

Not only does the province have the highest proportion of bigots, but the bigots are on average more bigoted than those in other countries. The main target of Northern Irish prejudice is the gay community, with over a third of respondents saying they did not want gay neighbours.

Interestingly Scandinavia headed the list for bigotry against Muslims:

The exceptions to this were the Scandinavian countries in which the main target of bigotry was Muslims: 74% of bigoted Danes, 68% of bigoted Swedes and 63% of bigoted Icelanders did not want Muslims as neighbours. The corresponding proportions for homosexuals in these countries were, respectively 37%, 44% and 43%.

  • SuperSoupy

    For the Belfast Telegraph? Afraid not.

    It is a paper in Kyklos.

    http://www.kyklos-review.ch/

  • SuperSoupy

    The University of Queensland deserves a joint credit too.

  • Harris

    Respectfully, does this really come as a shock to anyone?

    I know there are many here who would prefer to stay away from this question, but out of that 44%, what areas/communities do do you think most of that “HATE” comes from?

    I know that wasn’t the purpose of the study, but it would have been more clear had they scrutinized where the hate mainly comes from.

  • Dr Strangelove

    Still makes me laugh when I think about Trimble’s monocultural blast at the Republic… This survey puts things into perspective.

    Anyway, if we all hate each other, what chance do “outsiders” stand ?

  • Mick Fealty

    SS,

    Mind on other things…

  • SuperSoupy

    Harris,

    It misses the even bigger question that we all want to ask which shows just why the north tops the table:

    Are Protestants or Catholics more bigoted?

    At least we know that northerners are more bigoted than southerners who in turn are more bigoted than the Brtish but what about the taig/hun question?

  • joeCanuck

    This makes for very depressing reading.
    Not just N.I. but the other countries too.

  • DK

    “Are Protestants or Catholics more bigoted” There was a report some time ago on this, and the huns were slightly worse than the taigs. There was even a thread here on it which amounted to: “Ha – told you so you orange bastards” and “But foreigers live in our areas so what do you expect fenian scumbag”

  • Dread Cthulhu

    “The exceptions to this were the Scandinavian countries in which the main target of bigotry was Muslims: 74% of bigoted Danes, 68% of bigoted Swedes and 63% of bigoted Icelanders did not want Muslims as neighbours. The corresponding proportions for homosexuals in these countries were, respectively 37%, 44% and 43%.”

    Not all that suprising, if you have been paying attention to their blogs or blogs that intersect on the issue. Malmo, for example, has areas where the Muslims have created “no-go” condition.

  • Greenflag

    What else would yiz expect ? The State was conceived in bigotry , born sectarian, and has been living with a janus faced themun’s and usum’s politico/socio apartheid mentality from day one and even before the State was established .

    We are all the products of our environment to a greater or lesser degree. In the Northern Ireland ‘environment’there are many good self preservation reasons as to why you would’nt want any of ‘themuns ‘as next door neighbours . The fact that ‘themuns’ is now extended beyond the traditional Fenian and Jaffa varieties is neither here nor there .

    The fact that Greece is just behind NI should also not be surprising . I recall reading an article that the Greeks of all European emigrants to the USA had the greatest problem with ‘assimilating’ Some 50% of Greeks found it so difficult to divest themselves of their inherent xenophobic tendencies that they actually returned to Greece . The Irish on the other hand were the most assimable with less than 10% returning . Other european emigrant nations were closer to the Irish in this respect than to the Greeks .

    It would be an interesting study to see which side of the sectarian divide in NI is the most xenophibic and why.

    Some of us may already know the answer to both questions.

    The Scandinavian attitude to Muslims is not surprising . There is probably no other region in europe that is less ‘religuous’ in the traditional sense than Scandinavia . It’s difficult for people of such a disposition to take to a people who remain ardently ‘religious ‘ and in many cases fanatically loyal to Islam.

    I can’t imagine it would be a whole lot of fun having a fundamentalist bible bashing FP devotee as a neighbour either.

  • Shore Road Resident

    “Only Protestants are sectarian”
    – as I’ve mentioned before, it’s a wonder that republicans haven’t managed to persuade more people to their cause with this argument.

  • There’s a problem with the question:

    “Would you like to have persons from this group as your neighbours?”

    A negative response to this does not mean that the person would hold a negative view of the “group” in question, an honest neutral person would have to asnwer “No”.

    It’d be interesting to see what the responses would be if the question was phrased

    “Would you prefer not to have persons from this group as your neighbours?”

    I personally wouldn’t “Like” to have persons of any “group” as my neighbours, similarly I wouldn’t “Dislike” to have persons of any “group” as my neighbours… am I one of the bigotted ones?

  • gerry

    People like that fella who heckled the home secretary must take a lot of the blame. He tells the home secretary reid, how dare you come in to a muslum area?- in Britain? Kill british soldiers and uk government personnel. Dodge air port security dressed as women covered up in frocks, use their places of worship mosques as training factories, blow people up on bussesfor what exactly, because of their religion,
    Other groups beg on the streets, have organised gangs begging on the streets, use babies and children to elicit money. target churches and charity shops and pavements in central shopping areas and are not moved on. Put nothing back into the community, refuse to integrate and then allege they are alienated.

    gives us a break.

    ffs is it any wonder this stuff is getting worse. And who is to blame, the general population. why not put the blame where it belongs – on these people themselves.

  • Doctor Who

    Here we go again, youse uns are worse bigots than us uns.

    A lot of the inherent fear of foreigners and people with alternative lifestyles,comes from the conservative atitude of the main churches in Northern Ireland.

    For example on these threads people professing to be God fearing Protestants or strict Catholics still refer to Gay people as soddomites.

  • gerry

    So its all the fault of the churches? Is it in retalliation for some workers not being allowed to wwear a crucifix to work? and dare anyone say anything against them, for fear of being accused of hate crime.

    *rolleyes*

  • John East Belfast

    Greenflag

    All a bit simplistic to blame this on Partitition – and interestingly I dont know how you marry your first paragraph with your advocation of the justification of repartition ?
    ie this is not what you say when calling for the latter.

    I suppose when trying to understand why NI is up this league table we have to think deeper.

    In terms of homosexuality it would likely tally with the higher degree of religious adherence here.
    Do we call Christians bigots for stating homosexuality is wrong ? I know this doesnt mean you then say you cant live beside them but some people obviously fail to make the break.

    In terms of race we also have to consider the ‘sheltered’ status of 40 years.
    ie the mass immigration that came to the GB and other European shores didnt venture to NI in the same degree.
    Hence ignorance of other races which was highly prevalent in GB in realy seventies remains here.

    In terms of foreigners the demographic head count is also an issue.
    Loyalist areas esepcially are suspicious of most Eastern Europeans because they consider them Catholic.

    The Catholic Protestant thing here (for most) is not about transubstantiation, the role of Mary and the Saints etc but is about Constitutional politics.

    ie you are not born a bigot but you are shaped as one by the environment around you and therefore appreciating that environment and trying to cahnge it is more important than condemning a whole society with a label

  • Dread Cthulhu

    JEB: “ie you are not born a bigot but you are shaped as one by the environment around you and therefore appreciating that environment and trying to cahnge it is more important than condemning a whole society with a label ”

    Which brings us all the way back around, despite all bloviating to the contrary, to partition and its subsequent fallout…

  • Diluted Orange

    Is this a surprise?

    I would think seeing the sterling work of Messers Paisley, Adams and associates in this particular field that it really would be a massive policy failure if our bigotry towards each other wasn’t passed onto immigrants moving here.

  • So, the next time someone calls me paranoid for commenting on homophobia, I have some evidence to back me up…

    Although, before I get too excited, I’d really like to take a little time to have a look at the methodology; for example the question about Muslims apparently wasn’t asked in Australia because it ‘wasn’t relevant’. Really? In a country which has only recently experienced Muslim vs. Christian riots more serious than any in Europe? Also, why wasn’t the question about Jews asked in Switzerland? There’s no anti-semitism in Switzerland? I don’t think so.

  • Dexter

    Disgusting. What a narrow minded little hovel we live in. All this crap from the bigots regarding ‘our’ country blah blah blah. I really dont see how people (and this is not confined to Ireland) can continually refer to ‘our’ countries. We all live on bits of land that have moved, and are moving, around our planet. The land on which we live once was attached to the backside of Africa or Australia or the like. There should be no such thing as the concept of any particular grouping owning a country, particulary where, as human beings, we have been here for such a relatively short period and, as individuals, are here for such a fleeting time. Then again, the bigots and racists would hardly look to such a bigger picture, given that they cant see beyond ‘their’ town/village/area or beyond the last 30/90/800 years.

  • Which brings us all the way back around, despite all bloviating to the contrary, to partition and its subsequent fallout…

    Yeah. That’s right. There was no bigotry in Ireland before partition. No riots at orange marches in the 19th Century. No victimising of Parnell by the Catholic hierarchy.

    Hell, there weren’t even any penal laws.

    All bigotry is obviously caused by partition. Just like the common cold.

  • Racism is one of Northern Ireland’s least attractive features. 30 years behind the rest of the UK.

  • Diluted Orange

    I think the 44% figure for bigots in Northern Ireland is a little bit disingenuous also. Surely we are around the 95% mark.

    On a personal level I absolutely love the fact that people from other cultures and countries are finally making Northern Ireland their home on a much bigger scale. Immigration can only be good for us and inject some sort of dynamism into this drab, hate-filled place. Let’s just hope they bring their politicians with them.

  • kensei

    “I would think seeing the sterling work of Messers Paisley, Adams and associates in this particular field”

    In fairness to SF, they are fairly decent on rights from gay people to supporting immigrants. Even Paisley has churches in Africa, so hostility to Islam would be more a religious rather than race thing.

  • fair_deal

    “to partition and its subsequent fallout…”

    Sectarian strife predates partition by centuries.

  • kensei

    “Sectarian strife predates partition by centuries.”

    The point is that partition has kept it healthy. The South has it’s own problems on these issue but even they are some degree ahead of us.

  • I Wonder

    As all polls tend to exaggerate the middle ground, as people are disinclined to appear extreme, I think it realistic that 45% is quite a low figure.

    Not wanting a gay next door – or even one per village – would probably be something that many more than 45% would actually see no problem with.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “Sectarian strife predates partition by centuries. ”

    Please, by all means, count it, but also make up your mind. When e’er a nationalist brings up the plantation and the like, we are informed that that is all “old news” and of little import to modern day affairs; yet, when it suits, apparently, the olden times do apparently count for something. Will wonders never cease.

  • Spelling bee

    I have a houseful of eastern Europeans living next door to me. I would honestly rather have them than the Northern Irish family who were their predecessors…..asking me to turn down the music at my house warming party indeed…..

  • Guys,

    Much to the disappointment of some, this study has nothing whatsoever to say about one of our oldest hot potato…

  • fair_deal

    DC

    1. History while very interesting is largely redundant. Few people will sacrifice something today to make up for a real or imagining slight their ancestors did a few centuries ago. BTW allowing casinos isn’t a sacrifice ;-).
    2. It was your good self who went back into history first with the reference to partition not I. I did not introduce history into the topic.
    3. Also my comment on history did not infer cause and effect, simply to argue the problem is older and more consistent than your chosen event.

    Sectarian strife owes much less to historical events and more to do with the presence of two large distinct groups. The events are more the means of keeping ‘score’ on mutual rights and wrongs.

  • Diluted Orange

    [i]Guys,

    Much to the disappointment of some, this study has nothing whatsoever to say about one of our oldest hot potato… [/i]

    Surely you can conclude though that if we can’t be civil to each other what chances are there of us being civil to immigrants? Unfortunately, I think this alleged bigotry towards migrants comes from the fact that we have got to a point were we are so intolerant that we just automatically hate every race/culture/religion that is not exactly the same as our own.

  • Greenflag

    JEB,

    Greenflag

    ‘All a bit simplistic to blame this on Partitition ‘

    I’m not blaming it all on Partition but I’d hazard a guess that Partition exacerbated the already latent ‘xenophobia’ which as you say goes back several centuries.

    ‘and interestingly I dont know how you marry your first paragraph with your advocation of the justification of repartition ? ‘

    Simplicity itself JEB – If the vast majority of Irish Nationalists in NI can be removed out from the xenophibic hothouse that is the NI State then the sooner their ‘xenophobic’ ratings will approximate the Irish as opposed to the Unionist norm. This can only be good for them as a people and as individuals . Unionist ‘xenophobia’ is a matter for Unionists themselves to resolve . There’s nothing that we Irish can do to assist British Unionists in that regard . Their very presence on the island as a minority in the North East makes for the ‘condition’ .

    There is hope however as apparently the younger population groups seem to be less ‘xenophobic’ than their parents . 40 years ago in terms of ‘race’ the Irish Republic could also have been described as a sheltered ‘all white’ community. But it seems the Republic has managed to cope with it’s immigrant community in a less openly hostile manner than Northern Ireland.

    ‘In terms of foreigners the demographic head count is also an issue. Loyalist areas esepcially are suspicious of most Eastern Europeans because they consider them Catholic. ‘

    Brilliant rationale . How would Loyalist areas feel about English or Scottish Catholics their fellow Britons as next door neighbours assuming of course that any of the latter would ever consider such a suicidal move ?

    ‘The Catholic Protestant thing here (for most) is not about transubstantiation, the role of Mary and the Saints etc but is about Constitutional politics. ‘

    I agree JEB. It’s also about the changing demographics and economic power structure within NI and as between the Republic and NI. In such an environment it’s no surprise that ‘loyalists and unionists’ are and will remain xenophobic for as long as the present ‘balance’ remains.

    ‘you are not born a bigot but you are shaped as one by the environment around you and therefore appreciating that environment and trying to change it is more important than condemning a whole society with a label ‘

    Full marks for the obvious JEB but you are essentially putting the egg before the chicken here or is it the other way around ? For those of us who believe that the 6 county NI State given it’s local history and socio-cultural religious characteristics and demography is inherently incapable of change without the demise of the State .

    The ‘xenophobia’ of Loyalists will only cease when it has no reason to exist . That situation will most likley only arise with the disappearance of the NI State in it’s present format. It will not be a total cure for the ‘condition’ but a step forward in the right direction -IMO.

  • Greenflag

    FD,

    ‘Sectarian strife predates partition by centuries.’

    True but also true of other european countries /nations such as France /Germany/England /Holland/Switzerland/Scotland etc . But in all of the above sectarian strife eventually disappated due to the emergence of the nation state -secularism and the growing freedoms associated with ‘democracy.
    These countries/nations did not have their ‘constitutional ‘ future forever hanging in the balance depending on the result of a) the next election or b) the next census .

    In that respect Northern Ireland is a political oddity -neither one thing nor the other a half colonial twilight zone which is neither nation nor country in itself but can only be defined in relation to it’s neighbours east and west .

    A recipe for eternal constitutional confusion but if that’s waht the people want well that’s what they’ll get to pay for .

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “History while very interesting is largely redundant. Few people will sacrifice something today to make up for a real or imagining slight their ancestors did a few centuries ago. BTW allowing casinos isn’t a sacrifice ;-). ”

    Depends on whom you ask — ever try to live near one? How about between two?

    FD: “2. It was your good self who went back into history first with the reference to partition not I. I did not introduce history into the topic. ”

    Ah, but I presented was a general rule, gleaned from the broad general experience on this site, not some narrow argument. When a nationalist brings history into the discussion — penal laws, the Plantation, the Blight, etc., he is roundly shouted down by Unionists, who claim that those events are too far back to consdier. Apparently, history is only important when it suports Unionist contentions.

    FD: “Sectarian strife owes much less to historical events and more to do with the presence of two large distinct groups. The events are more the means of keeping ‘score’ on mutual rights and wrongs. ”

    A predictable, convenient and almost trite position to take, all things considered…

  • fair_deal

    DC

    1. My reference to sacrifice was of a common one not an individual one ie living beside one. However my phraseology of “few people” probably contributed to this confusion, my apologies.
    2. I am not responsible for what other Unionists do or do not do. Historical debate is something I find interesting but as I said largely redundant for how we sort out where we are today. Why argue about discriminatory laws passed and abolished centuries ago when we could be debating our present laws for equality and human rights and the mechanisms for their protection?
    3. No you used specificity e.g. direct reference to partition it was I who used generality.
    4. Simply an analysis that doesn’t rely on poor historical point scoring.

  • The Devil

    I think people are getting a bit hysterical here over nothing.
    The report is fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons, yes it does show preferences for what neighbour you want but that only goes to show that people have preferences particularly men.
    Below are three options with answers followed by the same three options worded differently with three answers.

    Option 1) would you like two homosexual men living next door?

    Answer a) No I really wouldn’t I bought this house for its south facing back garden where I could enjoy watching the neighbours teenage daughters and their friends sunbath on a warm summers day wearing micro bikinis and smiles not listen to some sexual dysfunctional male scream in a grossly enhanced girlie voice about a caterpillar on his towel and secretly ogling me from an upstairs window, the dirty pervert.

    Answer b) Not a chance, that means that there won’t be a woman next door who given a few weeks of friendliness and general flirting will be gagging to have an affair with me once her husband goes away for a business trip.

    Option 2) Would you like Muslims for neighbours?

    Answer ) Are you on drugs man my alarm clock goes off at quarter to seven five days a week now you want me to listen the call to Salaah getting yelled from the attic of my next door neighbours at the crack of dawn, not a fucking chance, besides their women don’t do affairs, there’s absolutely no chance of fluff watching in their back garden and any summer snaps taken there would look like a Hamas school reunion and I don’t want some guy in white pajamas and an army surplus haversack charging into my living room screaming Allaabu Akbar.

    Option 3) Would you like people of a different race as neighbours?

    Answer ) Right now your really asking to be slapped, I don’t want some big buck nigger pushing drugs to my kids or spreading AIDS to the women I’m planning to have affairs with, besides what use would any of be to any woman that had been with Sergei Bubka

    Option 1 reworded ) Would you like two drop-dead gorgeous lipstick lesbians for neighbours.

    Answer ) Fucking right.

    Option 2) Would you like two stunning Pilipino nurses living next door

    Answer ) Do they need a hand to move in

    Option 3) Would you like Beyonce and Naomi Campbell living next door

    Answer ) Would I like man I insist on it.

    So as you see all things are relative as to what you think your getting and not what your getting.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “No you used specificity e.g. direct reference to partition it was I who used generality. ”

    Let me break this down to small words with big letters.

    I noted the partition.

    You pointed out the broader history.

    I commented that citing events such as the Plantation usu. attact howls of derision from Unionists.

    The problem is that you which to retain a dead-lock on our original exchange when the flow of the converstaion has moved past that point.

    FD: “Why argue about discriminatory laws passed and abolished centuries ago when we could be debating our present laws for equality and human rights and the mechanisms for their protection? ”

    Because there is, frequently, a gap between what the law specifies and what actually happens. I am certain that there were laws on the books against murder that were selectively enforced by the RUC. Likewise, the present laws do not address certain realities on the ground.

    FD: ” Simply an analysis that doesn’t rely on poor historical point scoring. ”

    So sayeth the fellow who likes his bowler and his summer-time triumphalist marches.

  • “I would think seeing the sterling work of Messers Paisley, Adams and associates in this particular field that it really would be a massive policy failure if our bigotry towards each other wasn’t passed onto immigrants moving here.”

    Partly true, yes obviously true about Paisley and his cohorts. Incorrect about the shinners.

    http://www.queerday.com/2004/apr/25/sinn_feins_leader_backs_gay_rights.html

    http://www.sinnfein.ie/policies/document/118

    The Shinners, in fairness, have always been on the good side when it comes to those two issues.

  • Oh and here’s the other side’s (DUP) view, not Alliance, they’d be very liberal on gay issues i’m sure.

    http://www.allianceparty.org/news/002685.html?PHPSESSID=801ceb21

    No wonder, it’s the bigotry capital of the world with a religious fundy party as the main vote winner.

  • Yoda

    Apologies to Mick for straying off topic, but…

    Ireland under the British had always been treated as a single entity. To my knowledge there was no equivalent of Dublin Castle in Scotland or Wales. So many other trappings marked the difference between Ireland and Britain even under the union.

    Partition split that administrative unit and essentialized and concretized politico-religious identities in a completely new way. The problem is that it never really “took”: it had to keep reproducing itself throughout the Troubles (through ethnic cleansings and the like) to prove it was “real.” Partition can’t be consigned to the rubbish-bin of history just yet: it hasn’t gone away you know.

    Things have changed somewhat: everyone now accepts the need for effective local accountable government on an island basis. We just need to keep on thinking about what that really means.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    Sorry how could I understand that last post you didn’t use the big letters like you said you would.

    1. I respond to exactly what the person says. How dreadful of me. Also I disagree with the value of history as present day political argument so adding to the list of events had no impact as I didn’t accept the premise.
    2. I don’t wear a bowler but so what if I wear a collarette and go on parades? I do not use history to go to nationalists “We won at the Boyne so we get the Union forever” nor “We should get down Garvaghy Road because some of your ancestors may have carried out a massacre against some of my ancestors at Portadown” etc etc. nor do I credit the argument in reverse.

  • I do protest.

    We have bigger mountains, strippers with bigger silicon boobs than Norn Iron and the biggest blundering fools and biggest bigots in the whole damn world.

    The great state of California will personally set up any detractor in a flaming red Carrera Cabriolet with California oy veh! vanity plates with a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker and a 44-22-38 blonde, black stripper in leopard skin spandex for a trip through rural Alabama.

    If you can draw two breaths before you are bent over a log ala Deliverance or dangling from a tree you win.

    Bah! Goddam Dillitantes.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    “You may “what if” all you like—but it doesn’t change what is.”

    Indeed.

  • time will tell

    The Devil

    Very funny very true

  • Greenflag

    The Devil,

    Spot on Satan ole bean 🙂 The Devil as always is in the detail . Not until the day arrives when a bunch of travellers moving into an area increases property values will all anti traveller bigotry cease . It’s the human condition -at the same time we should do whatever is possible to diminish the worst aspects of this interesting societal phenomenon.

  • lib2016

    There is one interesting little local twist nobody seems to have mentioned. When it comes to ‘white flight’ to the surburbs in NI the newcomer’s opening gambit is likely to be “Hullo there – I’se your new boss” which is likely to draw a different response. 😉

    The same thing has happened in Atlanta where a rising black middleclass has appeared and displaced the old powerstructure, just as it’s happening in Glengormley at present.

    The way in which ‘themmuns’ are perceived is all-important when we’re talking about prejudice. What will the perception of Nationalists as being more successful and with more social capital do to unionist self regard?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “Also I disagree with the value of history as present day political argument so adding to the list of events had no impact as I didn’t accept the premise. ”

    You not accepting the premise does not invalidate it, FD. Likewise, your assertion that the past isn’t prologue in N.I. and that historic discrimination has no impact on current cross-community perceptions is naive.

    FD: ” don’t wear a bowler but so what if I wear a collarette and go on parades?”

    It would be an indication that you are a participant in these little triumphalist displays and, therefor, have a dog in the fight. As a result, some of your positions arise from self-interest.

    To be wholly fair, the truth lies somewhere between the poles you and I habitually stake out. The problem has some roots you seemingly to ignore, particularly the historical aspects, and some I honestly will likely never be able to comprehend, not being a Unionist and, therefore, not an “owner” of the associated mythology and world-view that accompanies being a Unionist. What you call “heritage” and culture, I see a petty triumphalism and “hate.”

    The real question is how to bridge that obvious communications gap. Frankly, given the troubled history and the things your culture is celebrating with these events, I’m not sure it can be done.

  • Greenflag

    DC,

    ‘Frankly, given the troubled history and the things your culture is celebrating with these events, I’m not sure it can be done. ‘

    Another good reason to consider a fair repartition solution . The Republic’s National Development plan will work wonders towards this end with all those billions being directted at the western and southern areas of Northern Ireland . As these will all be new ‘republican ‘roads then the OO will be unable to claim they are the Queen’s highway . They will also be non traditional roads and thus the OO will be unable to march them .

    The OO will have to restrict it’s marching to small areas around local church’s or halls and this should help to reduce community tensions. Of course in the smaller Unionist State the lads would still be able to march around for several months each summer bating their drums and scaring the shite out of any remaining Irish and new immigrants . So they’d not have lost everything .

  • Greenflag

    TD,

    ‘What you call “heritage” and culture, I see a petty triumphalism and “hate.” ‘

    In fairness TD -FD can say the very same re your celebration of 1916 etc etc. There is always the other side of the coin .

    It’s easy enough to bridge communication gaps . Constitutional gaps are less easy to bridge and not lightly traversed.

  • Are you or Aren’t you

    Hi Devil

    We love reading your posts on Slug it really makes the day (at times sometimes you can be to harsh on people especially harmless middle class middle of the road types)
    What we would like to know is are you Newton Emerson
    My wife and brother-in-law think you are and I disagree so to save a family feud developing would you please giv’us an answer to the question.

    For reasons best withheld I can’t ask with my Slugger alias

  • parcifal

    As its a b1got thread, a joke, not very good:

    What’s a bigot’s favourite film?
    The Prodfather

    Bigot on a bridge wins poll for funniest religious joke

    How about making some money on bigot memorabilia; have a shop call it “Bigots R US”, like the toy shop “Toys R US”. Tourists would love it.

    When someone says to me, why do you want to visit norn iron. I reply “well that’s where the bigots are?”

    Better go see em, as they might become an endangered species 😉

  • fair_deal

    DC

    1. You can make the argument but it is an invalid premise if you are attempting to persuade me to your thinking.
    2. Call it whatever names you wish trite naive etc. There hasn’t been, isn’t nor will be an agreed history and bringing it into the political debate offers neither any advantages. ‘One’ history is a false concept anyway. It is a cul-de-sac in terms of political debate. Others insist in going down it but I don’t see the point.
    3. The answer does indeed often lie somehwere in the middle though not always.

  • Did the survey include Iraq?

    Sunni’s and shite’s currently at each others throats would seem more likely to be a contender for this dubious title.

    Kosovo, Serbs and Croats is another flashpoint.

    Christians in Turkey?

    To label N Ireland is a cheap shot imho.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “You can make the argument but it is an invalid premise if you are attempting to persuade me to your thinking. ”

    For your thesis to be true, it would have to assume that, absent all fo the events of history, NI would end up exactly where it is today. And that arguement is a non-starter.

    FD: “Call it whatever names you wish trite naive etc. There hasn’t been, isn’t nor will be an agreed history and bringing it into the political debate offers neither any advantages. ‘One’ history is a false concept anyway. It is a cul-de-sac in terms of political debate. Others insist in going down it but I don’t see the point. ”

    No sensible Unionist would and for obvious reasons.

    I do argue, however, that this is not properly a political debate. This is more of a cultural matter. That means the stakes are, arguably, much smaller, so of course the fighting is that much uglier.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    I am not denying history has happened or that the present day is its result nor I am refusing to engage in it as I think I am on a sticky wicket. I just don’t believe it has any significant value to the political debate.

  • PaddyReilly

    RE: IS “THE DEVIL” NEWTON EMERSON

    I must say I hadn’t thought of it myself but going through NE’s internet work there does appear to be a distinct similarity of style.

    NE is a lifelong Atheist, which turns out to be a kind of Protestant. There is a similar religion for Catholics, which is called Anti-Clericalism.

    NE’s gripe against religion is based on his belief that he would have got his leg over a lot more times in the absence of this false philosophy. This is unfair. Jesus was, by the standards of his place and times, distinctly on the liberal side. Maybe not lap dancing, but certainly erotic foot massages.

    Religion has embraced the no-nookey philosophy because it is used as a form of social control. Atheist Communist China was exactly the same, you weren’t allowed to marry until your late 20s, certainly no chance of having it away. So the real objection is to social control, not religion.

    “The Devil” judging by the above piece has similar views on the centrality of sex to the pursuit of happiness. But I recall him saying how unbelievable rude he found Ulster people, which suggests a recent immigrant, which NE is not. But then we all know the devil is the father of lies.

  • IJP

    I’m going to risk playing Devil’s Advocate here.

    Because – is it actually true that NI people are the most racist/bigoted etc? Or is it more the case:
    a) that NI people are more open about it (and indeed we live in a society where people are rewarded for being so); and/or
    b) that NI people are more extreme – some are very anti-immigrant/anti-gay/racist; but some are prepared to go out of their way, well beyond the call of duty and well beyond what is the case elsewhere, to assist newcomers and/or those of different races?

    The correlation between a social and political system which encourages us to oppose people who are different from us for personal, electoral or even financial gain and being the most bigoted society in the Western World should not be lost, of course.

    But I’m going to stick my neck out and suggest that we in NI, many of whose residents after all have experience themselves of being the unwelcome outsider elsewhere, are bad, but maybe not that bad, comparatively. I’m also going to suggest that societies like England, while successful in this area in many ways, have become rather better at shielding racism through political correctness, than actually dealing with the core elements of it – “Shilpagate” may have illustrated that.

    All thoughts from a Devil’s Advocate point of view, you understand, but sensible comments welcome.

  • Wilde Rover

    More pointless navel gazing.

    Why are people asking the angry natives what they think about foreigners?

    Why don’t they ask the foreigners what they think about the angry natives?

    If you really want to settle the “themuns and usuns” debate, why not ask the Chinese, for example, what they think about Dublin and Belfast?

    But remember, the comfort blanket of The Troubles as a panacea for all ills is gone.

  • Newton Emerson

    Much as I’d like to claim the credit for much of The Devil’s work, I’m afraid that it’s not me.

    I suspect he’ll be horrified by the very suggestion.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Watch yourself Newt. There’s a “distinct similarity in style” between the ‘Are You or Aren’t You’ question and a certain newspaper’s alleged letters page (“Squinter really makes my day!”)

  • Mick Fealty

    No calm down guys. I ‘know’ Newt, and I ‘know’ the Devil. And they are two different people.

    The speculation may be fun, even if it is completely off the mark. But it could also be mischievous fun and, possibly, an attempt to create story elsewhere!

  • The Spirit of Bill Oliver

    Seems to me you leftwing imbecile Irish need to tone it down there…

    Last Time I looked many Muslims are nasty critters who are true Islamists which make them virtually incompatible with every other people in the world, and to a certain extent themselves…

    As far as the queers go….apparently you haven’t heard the Muslims own that too, and last time I looked Sodom did exist, its ruins are visible(as well as the other cities, and anuses are exits not entrances…

    But hey, I’m just a nutjob Right-Wing American Catholic Authoritarian Contra….what do I know?

  • Donnacha

    Spirit of Bill Oliver: I love the way you open your post with “you leftwing imbecile Irish need to tone it down”. You Yanks really DON’T understand irony, do you?

  • Crataegus

    Still a World beater at something.