Is anything a historical taboo?

The Iranian Foreign Ministry is holding a two day conference about the Holocaust. A spokesman said the conference would ask two questions:

“The first question to be posed is: Did the Holocaust actually happen or not? And the second one is: If it did happen, what was the scale of it?”

The conference is partly a response to governments defending the printing of Danish cartoons that offended Muslims under the principle of free speech.

  • Ulster McNulty

    The conference should be interesting. They will also be debating free speech in the west in light of convictions for holocaust denial.

    I heard a joke the other day.

    A defendant goes on trial accused of holocaust denial. He’s in the dock and the charges are put to him and he answers “Hold on a minute! I meant the Rwandan holocaust.”

  • DK

    Yes it happened, but it also happened to other groups – gypsies, freemasons, homosexuals, mentally handicapped. It was just not good to be different in Nazi Germany. I wonder if there are parallels with many moslem countries where it is not advisable to be different either.

    I suspect that the Nazis would probably have got around to exterminating moslems too if they had time. Moslems fought both for and against Nazi Germany. Notable examples are troops in the Indian Divisions of the British army, and Bosnian SS Divisions operating under the Wermacht.

    The scale may be exaggerated – six million I have heard is the upper estimate. But how can you challenge such staggering numbers?

  • joeCanuck

    DK

    I read somewhere recently (or saw on TV) that there are around 3 million documented names (many from Nazi records). There were many more, of course, since many families were eliminated completely and there was no one left to document them.
    So indeed 6 million seems to be the upper guess. But, for crying out loud, as you say, is slaughtering only 3 million somehow less of a horror than slaughtering 6 million.
    The scary thing is that there are still leaders around who would be quite willing to repeat such atrocities, judging by their actions in Rwanda and Bosnia and their words in Iran.

  • Mickhall

    I find this conference heartbreaking and extremely dangerous, for what the organizers are doing is playing into the hands of the worlds Zionists, in that they are equating Israel with the Jewish race as a whole, which is exactly what the Zionists attempt to do. Whereas millions of Jews oppose the violence perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinians and would not consider becoming citizens of the Israeli State.

    The overwhelming majority of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust were not Zionists, but citizens of a host of European Nations not least Germany itself. That the current Jewish State treats the Palestinian people in the most disgraceful manner has nothing to do with the Holocaust, nor is this mistreatment the responsibility of the Jewish people en-mass, although there is a responsibility to argue against the occupation of the West Bank and the brutality that accompanies it.

    One only has to read the statement by the Iranian President on this conference to understand that arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination. What he is doing here is an abuse of power and an insult to the Iranian people, who have a proud record of struggle against satraps and invaders. By inviting some of the most despicable b i g o t s on earth to his country to participate in this cesspit of a conference, he has shamed and embarrassed his nation in the eyes of the worlds people. I have confidence the Iranian people will remove such an individual from public office at the earliest opportunity.

    The Iranian president should understand the reason it is against the law to deny the Holocaust in many European counties, is because it is one of the most thoroughly documented acts of mass murder. Thus many of the nations of Europe, have no wish to rub salt into the open wounds of the survivors of the Holocaust, nor the families of the nazis victims who were murdered in the death camps.

  • Ulster McNulty

    Mickhall, you’ve got a point, but I would have liked to have seen Ahmadinejad being taken head-on onthis one. Instead of governments in Israel and the west condemning this as a farce I’d have liked to have seen them going there sticking the evidence right up his santimonious arse.

    Also I wouldn’t agree with you that there is a good reason to make it illegal to deny some holocausts unless you make it illegal to deny genocide in general.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DK: “I suspect that the Nazis would probably have got around to exterminating moslems too if they had time. Moslems fought both for and against Nazi Germany. Notable examples are troops in the Indian Divisions of the British army, and Bosnian SS Divisions operating under the Wermacht. ”

    Whilst Muslim auxiliaries were not considered to be “real” SS, they were many in the circles of power in Berlin who looked admiringly at Islam, not the least be Adolf Hitler himself. Likewise, the collaberation of Muslims with the Nazis was far reaching, including Nasser and Sadat, who led anti-British elements in Egypt, Iraq and the mufti of Palestine, who aided in the recruitment of Muslims for the SS divisions.

    DK: “The scale may be exaggerated – six million I have heard is the upper estimate. But how can you challenge such staggering numbers? ”

    Actually, the camps killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 million individuals, of which the largest segment, 6 to 7.5 million, were Jews. The rest — Poles, Slavs, Russians, communists, gays, Rom, and ordinary decent Germans and Austrians — do tend to get short-shrift, although this is as much a function of Hitler’s almost mono-maniacal anti-Semitism as anything else.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    mickhall: “The Iranian president should understand the reason it is against the law to deny the Holocaust in many European counties, is because it is one of the most thoroughly documented acts of mass murder. Thus many of the nations of Europe, have no wish to rub salt into the open wounds of the survivors of the Holocaust, nor the families of the nazis victims who were murdered in the death camps. ”

    Your outrage and some change might be able to buy a cup of coffee, but aren’t going to bother the Iranian president one whit. Ahmadinejad is a believer in a rather messianistic sect of Shia Islam — one that believes that, with enough chaos, the Hidded Imam will reveal himself and escort the world to the end-times. Your, mine and the entire west’s outrage are butterfly kisses to this fellow, since he believes the west has neither the stomach nor the balls to do anything about him.

    Ulster McNulty: “Mickhall, you’ve got a point, but I would have liked to have seen Ahmadinejad being taken head-on onthis one. Instead of governments in Israel and the west condemning this as a farce I’d have liked to have seen them going there sticking the evidence right up his santimonious arse. ”

    Ahmadinejad doesn’t have the guts to allow Israel-Arabs to attend his little hate-fest, UM. No way he’d allow anything approaching an intellectually honest discussion of the subject. This “conference” is a fait accompli.

  • Mickhall

    Do you not feel if we go down the road of counting the numbers, the deniers will have got their foot in the door in a half respectable manner.

    It is always a problem when government come in and ban things, but imagine how a victim must feel. Indeed one only has to look to the Armenians to understand that when the world refuses to take as fact what occurred, it is like it happening to them all over again, if you get my drift.

  • DK

    His previous conference was “imagining a world without Zionism”. Lots of nice discussion on getting rid of Israel. This is just a logical follow up – anything that anoys the bin lids is fair game to the pres & his lackeys.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mickhall: “Do you not feel if we go down the road of counting the numbers, the deniers will have got their foot in the door in a half respectable manner. ”

    Not particularly… but then, I don’t put much weight on the ravings of a collection of nutters and nit-pickers. But then, I’ve met too many primary sources — survivors and American service people who actually saw the camps, the ovens, etc.

  • sean og (aka robert)

    I am not old enought to know if the so called holocaust happened or not, and if it did happen , I will never be convinced that it happned on the scale that the Jews claim. I am always suspicious when we are toId not to question something, and why so much effort is put into demonising anyone who dares question the official version of events. Is it not strange that we can question and ask for proof as regards any other event in history and not ne demonised, yet ask any simple question as regards the so called holocaust and your are demonised. No history should be above question or closed to open debate. There is growing awareness around the world that the so called holocaust may never have happened on the huge scale claimed. I am not sure if Iran is the place for such a conference, to find out did the holocaust really happen or not, or even if the time is right, but one day , somewhere soon it should. No one no where should be forced to beleive something that they are not convinced of. I am not convinced of the scale,does that make me a holocaust un convinced or what.

    [Talking to yourself Robert/Sean, does not constitute debate – mod]

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Sean Og: “I am not old enought to know if the so called holocaust happened or not, and if it did happen , I will never be convinced that it happned on the scale that the Jews claim. ”

    Ah, yes, those nasty, devious Jews… It is not simply “the Jews” who claim it happened on this scale, but why let fact get in the way of a good ethnic smear.

    Sean Og: “I am always suspicious when we are toId not to question something, and why so much effort is put into demonising anyone who dares question the official version of events. Is it not strange that we can question and ask for proof as regards any other event in history and not ne demonised, yet ask any simple question as regards the so called holocaust and your are demonised.”

    Ah, now your getting around to your point — the “so called” Holocaust. Let us start with something I would consider to be an obvious question… how many people — Jew and Gentile alike, would have to be lying for your anti-Semitic fever dream that the Holocaust is simply a conspiracy to manipulate the world to be true?

    Sean Og: “There is growing awareness around the world that the so called holocaust may never have happened on the huge scale claimed. ”

    As noted above, we know there were three million Jews killed, because the Nazi records enumerate that three million. Does the fact that “only” three million Jews were “processed,” to use the German euphemism, make it any less a horror?

    Sean Og: “No one no where should be forced to beleive something that they are not convinced of. I am not convinced of the scale,does that make me a holocaust un convinced or what. ”

    It makes you prime material for the BNP.

  • bertie

    I have absolutely no reason to beleive that the Holocaust didn’t happen or didn’t happen on the scale that most (not just Jews) say. It is also true that Jews were not the only ones targeted. The difference between 3 million and six million makes little diference except to those who may have been one of the addional 3 million (and their families). The intention seems clear to me and if they had the chance and access to 10 million jews they would have killed them all.

    I would also agree that the question should be allowed to be asked and the evidence provided.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “I would also agree that the question should be allowed to be asked and the evidence provided. ”

    And, in another five or six decades, when the camps are finally taken away, root and branch, by the elements, what then, bertie? When the evidence, for wont of maintenance, has all finally rotted away, what then? Will the inability to produce the evidence change the answer?

    I understand that some with limited imagination might have a difficult time wrapping their minds about the notion of millions killed in this fashion. But this “holocaust unconvinced” foolishness, with is smirking anti-Semitic undertone, leaves more than a little to be desired.

  • DK

    Why stop with denying the holocaust. What about the potato famine?

  • robert (aka sean og)

    I totally agree with Sean Og that there is no way that anyone should be forced to beleive in something that they are unable to. The very fact that people like Sean Og are asking questions, is a sign that many of the young generation are not going to be fobbed off with childish taunts, and name callimg when asking for proof.It a pity that instead of name calling ,they could for a start provide proof of where all the 6 million bodies claimed are buried for a start.The numbers just do not add up, that is why, when asked a simple question they cannot or wont answer they resort to name calling. I fought in the war and heard many stories back then , like the Germans were making soap out of the dead bodies , i did not beleive it then, as I knew it was part of a black proproganda effort , dreamed up by the war office, many did and the Jews spread the lie with so many other lies , all now proved to be lies and admitted by the Jews today as lies.So after being told so many lies why should anyone beleive anything without concrete proof. Sean Og keep asking the questions you will get used to the name calling , as that all they can offer, when asked hard questions they cannot answer.

    [Since yourself and sean og are one and the same person, there is little value in claiming his/her support. – moderator]

  • bertie

    DC

    The evidence is the wealth of testimony available. Both contemporary and now as we still have the camps etc. Indeed I would hope that the camps will be preserved. I have heard nothing to suggest that they wouldn’t.

    “I understand that some with limited imagination might have a difficult time wrapping their minds about the notion of millions killed in this fashion. ”

    Even greater reason to put thought into how we can show that it did happen. It is hard to accept that it happened as our brains resists the scale of the horror. I suspect that it will be harder for future generations.

    “But this “holocaust unconvinced” foolishness, with is smirking anti-Semitic undertone, leaves more than a little to be desired. ”

    Some of it is. Some of it may not be. I think that those who raise it may be doing is an unintentional favour by forcing us to up our game.

    Just in case you are under any illusions I am not in any way a Holocaust denyer or sceptic. I would love for it not to have been true. But it was and it was evil

  • bertie

    robert

    so despite the fact that much of the testimony is about the bodies being incinerated “going uo the chimney”, you expect to find bodies?

  • joeCanuck

    Sean Og

    I don’t know for sure that a continent called Australia actually exists because it’s the only (reputed) continent that I have yet to visit.
    But given all the evidence that has been presented to me via various media, I’m 100% confident that it does exist.
    The very fact that successive German governments since the end of WW11 admit that these atrocities happened should be good enough for anyone.
    I pity your ignorance, I really do.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “The evidence is the wealth of testimony available. Both contemporary and now as we still have the camps etc. Indeed I would hope that the camps will be preserved. I have heard nothing to suggest that they wouldn’t. ”

    In time, even the most horrorific words will be just that — words. We’ve seen how easily the Great Hunger is dismissed on this board. As for preserving the camps, much of what was built was not intended to be permanent. Likewise, there are no few people in Germany who would like the whole matter to fade into the dustbin of history.

    bertie: “Even greater reason to put thought into how we can show that it did happen. It is hard to accept that it happened as our brains resists the scale of the horror. I suspect that it will be harder for future generations.”

    Oddly enough, similar acts, such as Stalin’s pogroms, are all but under the rug — 20 million dead are remembered due to the systematic effort to exterminate the Jews… 30 million died in the name of economic theory and political reliability and its all but forgotten.

    bertie: “Just in case you are under any illusions I am not in any way a Holocaust denyer or sceptic. I would love for it not to have been true. But it was and it was evil ”

    Relax, bertie… the question never crossed my mind.

  • Secur O’Crat

    The numbers exterminated in the so called Holocaust have rised to 7.5 million here. Funny thing inflation. As Israel is an inflation prone country, the numbers have risen and risen since the end of the war. Why has Germany had to pay so much reparations to the fascist state of Israel and not a penny not the Poles? Has anyone noted the huge amount in reparations the facist state of Israel has claimed for its recent Blitzkrieg on South Lebanon? German reparations allowed that nation of loafers and parasites to grow during the 1950s and 1960s. They continue to get their debts wiped out by the Great Satan, Uncle Sam.

    Iran is to be applauded for standing up for free speech. Why, in the West, can everything be mocked and questioned except the Jews and their money making Holocaust? No wonder Islam is the rising force. It stands up to the bullies, big and small.

  • bertie

    “Iran is to be applauded for standing up for free speech.”

    Yeah coz that’s why they’re doing it.

    “No wonder Islam is the rising force. It stands up to the bullies, big and small. ”

    Hmmm not sure that that stands up to much scrutiny.

  • The Pedant

    Did anybody else note the startling similarities between the post made by “sean og” and that made by “robert”, both syntactical and orthographical?

  • DK

    I think they’ve just taken all those pro-palestine flags/murals a bit too literally and think that to be republican they have to be anti-semitic. Silly sods.

  • Rory

    While Mick Hall articulates my own position on the Nazi Final Solution and Zionist cynical propagandaist misclaim to be the sole survivors of that crime I just cannot accept the idea that querying any idea should be deemed criminal. It seems almost a perversion of the very ideals that most stood up against Nazism, particularly in the dark days when the forebears of those who now would advocate criminalisation were to the fore in denying what was happening at the time. They did of course have a very good reason at the time – self interest.

    In any case a controversial title advertising the broad subject matter up for discussion at a conference is hardly reason to take up arms.

    At least I certainly hope so otherwise my planned forthcoming conference, “Are all Zionists nasty nazi wankers?” (the local Hassidic guys enthusiastically nod “Too right, mate”, but have not delivered a paper yet) may be subject to a heavy visit from the plod.

  • Mickhall

    robert wrote
    “It a pity that instead of name calling ,they could for a start provide proof of where all the 6 million bodies claimed are buried for a start.”

    Can Robert truly be this ignorant.

    Sean
    I suggest instead of repeating reactionary ill informed nonsense, you study up on the subject if you are as ignorant as you claim. There is no law against asking questions about the Holocaust or hunting out the facts. You can ask questions, ferret out facts until the cows come home, what you cannot do in some European nations is deny these facts and claim they are untrue, not without providing proof that is.

    The whole point about holocaust deniers is they claim that this mass murder did not take place, then when it is demanded of them to prove this, they fail to provide any details about what they claim happened to Europe’s Jews, Gypsies, [gays, disabled, people with mental illnesses, etc.] they simply say daft things like where were six million bodies buried.

    Well we know what happened to millions of Jewish bodies, in the work camps they were buried in pits under lime, which thankfully when there are people like you about, had failed to destroy all the evidence when they were dug up after the war. In the death camps they were cremated, we have the contracts the companies signed to build the crematoria, the contracts they signed to provide the gas, the drawings that the architects drew when they designed the camps [some of the camps are still standing] and we have tens of thousands of statements from survivors, their tormenters, their murderers, and the German bureaucrats who administered the whole system. As important we have paperwork from the European railway system, statements from train drives, station masters, routers,etc. For the railway companies invoiced the German state for every Jew who they transported on their way to the camps.

    We also have statements from the Poles and others who lived near some of the camps, the local business people who supplied the camp guards with food, beer, and other little niceties to make their day go just that bit faster.

    We have the invoices for the medicines that were used in experiments on helpless women and children, plus statements from prisoner doctors, nurses and orderlies who were forced to participate in this monstrosity and thankful we have living testament of people who these outrages were perpetrated against and survived by the grace of god their ordeal.

    We also have the results that were published in learned scientific journals about how long it took russian prisoners and jews to die after being ducked continuously in freezing water and countless other horrific medical experiments.

    Oh and we have the government census that were taken pre WW2 in nations as far apart as Holland to the Russian border and within which by 1948 contained almost no Jews.

    Finally we have the testimony from families in the UK and Ireland, who up until 1939 had relations in central and eastern Europe, yet by 1945 there was not a trace, bar the odd survivor, that is who was able to tell them what happened to their favorite aunt, uncle etc or there little nieces and nephews.

    And this testimony from countless ordinary people is what the holocaust deniers can never reach beyond. For we are all suspicious of governments these days, yet few of us would believe millions of people would tell such wicked tales if they were not absolutely true.

  • bertie

    Pedant

    both with btinternet.com and both misspell believe. Well spotted.

    You aren’t spreading Jewish propoganda are you?

  • joeCanuck

    indeed, very well spotted pedant.

  • Mick Fealty

    For information,

    robert/sean og is one and the same person. Probably best given a bye.

  • bertie

    So there has been a conspiracy to inflate number of holocaust denyers (how do you spell that ruddy word?) on this thread.

  • Secur O’Crat

    Mick Hall: I suggest instead of repeating reactionary ill informed nonsense, you study up on the subject if you are as ignorant as you claim. There is no law against asking questions about the Holocaust or hunting out the facts. You can ask questions, ferret out facts until the cows come home, what you cannot do in some European nations is deny these facts and claim they are untrue, not without providing proof that is.”

    In fact, there are laws and people are in jail for Holocaust denial.Is the Holocaust a big lie, the type Hitler favoured? Is it possible to question anything Jews and/or Israel do without being labelled an anti Semite?
    I would love to know just how much the Jews have been paid. They are now suing the French railways. With the Celtic Tiger, some of them must really be pissed they cannot sue in Dublin. Their cause is further enhanced by the quality of their enemies, many of whom are on a handy little earner themselves. They reckon they will get payments for the next 60 yuears.
    Iran is to be applauded for opening the debate. Next time, I hope they get better speakers.

  • BIll

    “and the mufti of Palestine, who aided in the recruitment of Muslims for the SS divisions.”

    D.C., don’t rub that particular lamp, lest the genie should appear here on Slugger!!! 😉

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mickhall: “Can Robert truly be this ignorant.”

    Sadly, the answer to that one is self-evident.

    Secur O’Crat: “In fact, there are laws and people are in jail for Holocaust denial.Is the Holocaust a big lie, the type Hitler favoured? Is it possible to question anything Jews and/or Israel do without being labelled an anti Semite?”

    In order of your questions, No, it wasn’t and yes, it is possible to question Israel without being an anti-Semite… It is a little trickier to question “the Jews,” as that is to question an entire people, a rhetorical foolishness.

  • Jim Kemmy

    Dreadlocks: If the Holocaust hadn’t happened, Israel would have had to invent it. The Nurmeberg trials were a farce of justice and torture of captured Germans was pandemic. Will Israel start paying up for some of its war crimes? Will George Bush face a Nuremberg over Iraq, the destruction of which served Israel’s national interests? Will Israel ever pay its way or will it be forever suing Germany, Germans, the French and anyone else they feel they can bribe a buck out of? The Second World war is long over, Israel’s vendatta excluded. The slaughter of Muslims continues and we do the three wise monkeys on it. Iran will end up leading the Muslim world. And we wil all pay for it, just as we are epxected to guard Israel’s border with Lebanon.

  • New Yorker

    DK raises a good point about the Nazis possibly having muslims on their list. It seems to me that the message the Iranians and other muslims should take from the WWII holocaust is that it can happen to large numbers of people and right now there are many annoyed with them. If they committed outrage after increasingly mortal outrage against the West to the level that millions were killed in attacks, would it occur to some in the West that a ‘final solution’ was required to erradicate the problem?

  • I want the truth

    I’ve been reading through some of these comments with some interest. However, I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the alledged 6 million Jews that were ethnically cleasened during WWI, again by Germany. So if we were to take them at face value, then Germany has ethnically cleansed some 12 million Jews across 2 world wars….. The whole holocaust story smacks of some of the propaganda found in the Babalonian Talmud, in which it claimed some 24 million Jewish babies were wrapped in Torah scrolls and tossed into a fire by Roman soldiers during the first occupation of Jerusalem (the first Jewish Holocaust).

    As for Auschwitz the claims, and even the placards, claiming that some 4 million plus Jews were murdered has been revised somewhat to under 1 million at the turn of the millenium, although it never received any media coverage. And as for the main gas chamber there was no residual traces of BZT, findings verified by the Poles in 1991. BZT also leaves a blue ceramic like hue on surfaces that have had prolonged exposure, again something that is absent form the main gas chamber.

    Just the other day I actually watched a History Channel documentry about Aschwitz, in which various ‘survivors’ and prison gaurds etc gave their accounts of what transpired. Across all the interviews there was a clear consensus that the bodies of dead Jews etc, were piled into a massive pit and then cremated within the pit, according to these ‘witneses’ it only took 30 mins to reduce an entire body to ash. The only problem with such testimnoy is that with temperatures over 2000 degrees C it takes over 24 hours for a body to be reduced. Given this, it is reasonable to say that such testimony is suspect at best.

    I am also surprised that no-one has mentioned the vision that Albert Pike claimed to have had in the 1880s in which 3 world wars were fought, and the desired outcome of the second world war was to garner enough sympathy for the Jews that a Zionist State would be formed (WWIII is supposed to be the Zionist State against Islam – battle lines are already being drawn).

    It should also be noted that those of you who would claim that the bodies were desposed of by incinerating them in ovens, that it would take some 40+ kgs of coal to reduce the average human cadaver. If we are to believe that some 4 million Jews were killed and incinerated in Aschwitz then thats some 160,000,000+ kgs of coal….

    As for the Numremberg hearings, acording to early Russian reports claimed that some 18 million Jews were killed, which was then dropped to 8 million prior to the hearings and then the oh some familiar 6 million.

    In some respects this has the hallmarks of Nazi style propaganda – the bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it; and, a lie repeated often enough will eventually be believed (ie WMD)…

  • I want the truth

    PS

    Gobal holocaust reperations paid to the Zionist Israeli state is some $35 billion a year. So, it seems like the holocaust is big business….

  • Mickhall

    I wish posters could keep to the thread, the Zionist State of israel did not exist when the holocaust was carried out, thus it can play no role when studying the aforementioned beyond guilt by association, which is nonsensical. Which incidentally is why the conference is taking place in Iran and why its participants are on a par with ‘i want the truth’ i e low life’s and ignoramuses.

    Dread Cthulhu

    Good stuff.

    “It is a little trickier to question “the Jews,” as that is to question an entire people, a rhetorical foolishness.

    Posted by Dread Cthulhu”

  • DK

    “no-one has mentioned the alledged 6 million Jews that were ethnically cleasened [by Germany] during WWI” – That’s because they weren’t. Jews fought in the German armed forces.

    “with temperatures over 2000 degrees C it takes over 24 hours for a body to be reduced”. 2000C would melt rock.

    You don’t want truth – you want to get out more

  • Secur O’Crat

    Mick Hall: “I wish posters could keep to the thread, the Zionist State of israel did not exist when the holocaust was carried out, thus it can play no role when studying the aforementioned beyond guilt by association, which is nonsensical. Which incidentally is why the conference is taking place in Iran and why its participants are on a par with ‘i want the truth’ i e low life’s and ignoramuses”.

    The “Zionist State of Israel” has been paid massive reparations by the Federal Republic of Germany, which also did not exist during the Second World War. Poles have not been paid reparations and nor have other victims, Germans included, of that inferno. Needless to say, the “Zionist State of Israel” has not paid a dime for its destruction of Lebanon but has instead put in an inflated invoice itself and they want France and other countries to guard their borders for them gratis. The organisers of this conference are to be congratulated by those of us who believe in jaw jaw, something Israel whould try for a change instead of its usual fare of murder and mayhem.

    THe so called Holocaust should be open for discussion and rsearch. Look at all the different views taken on the Irish “famine”. Iran is to be congratulated for putting the West’s holy grail of the Jewish “holocaust” under the spotlight.Let’s get at the facts and away from the rhetoric of Zionists and clapped out lefities.

  • bollix

    oh noes, teh jews are stealing the world again!

    Why do people get so exercised and keen to debate the question the fact of the holocaust? Why not get exercised about the so called bayeux tapestry? I saw it a few weeks ago, so i know it exists, if i hadn’t seen it, would i be justified in referring to the so called bayeux tapestry?

    Holocaust denial seems to go hand in hand with one of two things (a) anti semitism, or (b) criticism of the state of israel. That is certainly true of this conference in iran. I am not anti semitic, but i am strongly critcal of the state of israel, however that does not allow me to close my eyes to the truth which stares me in the face, that the holocaust happened.

    I know because of what i have read, of what the accepted academic consensus is, because when one of the key deniers had his day in court, he was exposed as a liar and a charlatan. This should be enough.

    However, i also know because i went to auschwitz -birkenau. I saw the camps. i saw the sign arbrecht mecht frei – work makes you free. then i saw the camp where the real killing took place. i saw the big lines where the trains where driven into the middle of the camp. i saw the outlines of the huts. i saw the ruins of the huge gas chambers. i saw the original smaller chambers. i went inside and felt the miasma of death in the place. i saw the holes in the roof where the gas pellets were dropped down into little cages.
    then i saw the detritus of extermination. i saw a huge room of human hair. human hair cut from victims. i saw shoes and personal effects. the nazis where thorough, they took a note of every suitcase and its owner so that they could be “reclaimed” by their owner when they needed them. i saw a room of prosthetics taken from victims. i also saw the polish towns where jews once lived and now live no longer.

    If there was a genuine academic debate – was america discovered by columbus, the vikings or st brendan – then i would be happy to take part and question.
    this is not a genuine academic debate, it is a political one motivated by anti jew or anti israel sentiment. I find it obscene to talk about “so called holocaust” or the jews making plenty of money out of the holocaust.

    even one on this thread who professes to be engaged in a proper debate turns out to be a liar (robert / sean posting under two different names when its the same person – note, is this me playing the men or the man?).

    I place holocaust denial in the same mould as creationism (although alot more obscene and evil). the evidence is there in your face, stop closing your eyes to what is obvious. Set aside your prejudice / belief systems and accept reality.

  • Mickhall

    bollix

    Well said.

  • lib2016

    This is such a touchy subject that it was convenient to take the easy way out and refrain from posting. ‘Bollix’ said what needed to be said. Well Done!

  • Secur O’Crat

    So the academic community and others should discuss and analyse everything but not the Jews and their holocaust. The hypocrisy of this should be self evident. Both the Jews and the fascist state of Israel should be held up to the lioght. If this site has any use at all, it is that it gets ethnic Catholics and ethnic Protestants to each question their a priori assumptions.
    I am glad bollix got to tour these tourist sites. I hope he also gets to tour the ledgers and balance sheets of Israel so he gets to see how much they have made out of it. The Poles got nothing, not a homeland, not a kopek. Well done Iran! Stepping up to the plate again.

  • JC

    In July 1847, the Belfast Orange Lodge lamented that the recent famine had ‘thinned out our local population and removed many of our Loyal brethern’.

    On the 15oth anniversary no mention was made, on the 160th I doubt things will change.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Secur o’crat: “I am glad bollix got to tour these tourist sites. I hope he also gets to tour the ledgers and balance sheets of Israel so he gets to see how much they have made out of it. The Poles got nothing, not a homeland, not a kopek. Well done Iran! Stepping up to the plate again.”

    Actually, if I recall my maps correctly, Poland absorbed some German territory at the end of the Second World War when the maps were re-drawn… I do not recall if it was a net gain or loss, given the shift of the Russian border into what had previously been Poland.

  • merrie

    Why is it so important for Ahmadinejad to deny the Holocaust happened?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    merrie: “Why is it so important for Ahmadinejad to deny the Holocaust happened? ”

    If he can “prove” the Holocaust didn’t happen, he believes is will undermine the rationale for the formation of Israel. Ultimately, I think he wants to achieve a retro-active abortion.

  • merrie

    Well, in that case Dread – and apologies if I offend anyone in view of the dietary habits of both Jews and Muslims – pigs might fly before there is a “retro-active abortion”.

    What a waste of time to even consider this. And if the Holocaust is proven to have not happened, what then?

    If he wants Israel to go away he should pursue other means. And perhaps this Holocaust denial is just a smoke screen for some other means – such as building nuclear weapons. Israel already has its own nuclear weapons… Mmm, I don’t like to think about what might happen in the Middle East.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    merrie: “Well, in that case Dread – and apologies if I offend anyone in view of the dietary habits of both Jews and Muslims – pigs might fly before there is a “retro-active abortion”. ”

    I never said he was sane, merrie. I just answered your question. The Iranian president adheres to a Shia sect that believes that if they can cause enough chaos, the Hidden Imam will reveal himself and lead the umma to victory. While its not the whackiest thing I’ve ever heard, its probably in the top twenty.

    merrie: “If he wants Israel to go away he should pursue other means. And perhaps this Holocaust denial is just a smoke screen for some other means – such as building nuclear weapons. Israel already has its own nuclear weapons… Mmm, I don’t like to think about what might happen in the Middle East. ”

    Menachem and the Great Glass Parking-lot.

  • Dk

    Dread – could be the final solution…..

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DK: “Dread – could be the final solution….. ”

    Y’know — most places in the world you could get arrested for playing with a loaded pun like that.

  • Secur O’Crat

    If Hitlerr did in a few European Jews, the Iranian President is correct to say the problem should be solved in Europe. Israel is a mongrel state and Britain and the US, among others, initially opposed it, Britain by force of arms. Israel uses the alleged Holocuast (of Jews) in Europe as a get of a jail card free to kill Arabs and others it chooses to dispose of. Also, Israel should not be allowed to enter any European competitions. It should live with its neigbours and stop killing them, It should also begin to pay its way in the world. They should also not have bene allowed into the Red Cross/Crescent movement with their self styled Red Crystal as they have nothing but death and dihonesty to offer it.

  • merrie

    Couple of interesting articles on the Holocaust in today’s Independent (UK version). In case you don’t know, the Independent has stopped charging for reading its commentaries:

    Howard Jacobson: Be careful whose history you deny, for to hate them you must steep yourself in them

    < http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/howard_jacobson/article2079308.ece>

    Robert Fisk: Different narratives in the Middle East
    <
    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2079304.ece >

    Hope the links work.

  • http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm

    Interesting story and comments here. Please note all the replies from the state of Israel.

  • merrie

    Yes, Secur O’Crat that was interesting. This is all just part of a bigger picture in the Middle East.

    I dread what might be happening there, and some Times commentator thinks the same:

    The thirty years’ war brewing in the Middle East

  • The possibilities make the NI lack of conflict resolution look so pathetically petty.

  • J McConnell

    Secur O’Crat

    > to deny the Irish holocaust

    ..and which holocaust was that?

    Oh you mean the time that 20K died of starvation and another few 100K died of the diseases of hunger and poverty at the pretty much the same mortality rate as those crowed masses in the slums of the big industrial cities like London and Manchester.

    To equate a natural disaster exacerbated by politics with the deliberate murder of millions of men, woman and children is as obscene as anything that went on in Tehran a few weeks ago.

    Go talk to people whose mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters were murdered in the concentration camps of Poland or the forests of the Baltics and Russia. Hear their stories of terror and heart-break on a truly mind-numbing scale and then hold your head in shame for even trying to make the comparison.

    Or better still, try talking to some of the Latvians, Lithuanians or Poles that are now in Ireland. Ask them how many of their immediate family (or neighbours) of their grand-parents generation was murdered by the Germans or by the Russian in the 40’s. I am sure most will have sad stories to tell of family loss or local tragedy. During those barbarous times Latvians and Lithuanians were murdered by the hundreds of thousands, and Poles by the millions.

    Makes the self-inflicted conflict in the island of Ireland with its few thousand fratricidal dead look kind of pathetic and utterly trivial in comparison, does n’t it?

  • Ulster McNulty

    J McConnell

    “Makes the self-inflicted conflict in the island of Ireland with its few thousand fratricidal dead look kind of pathetic and utterly trivial in comparison, does n’t it?”

    No not really, and to paraphrase yourself:

    Go talk to people whose mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters were murdered in their homes and on the streets. Hear their stories of terror and heart-break on a truly mind-numbing scale and then hold your head in shame for even trying say that it was all a trivial episode.

  • Secur O’Crat

    J McConnell I take it you think Irish Catholics should not be compensated for the genocide perprtrated agsinst them. As I already pointed out, the Poles were not compensated, so crocodile tears there. And why drag the Russians/Soviets into it? Will the British pay compensation for those who were handed over to thug Tito?

  • merrie

    I realise this is getting more off-topic, but here is an article on polonium and various other possible ingredients for a terrorist/suicide bomber from The Canberra Times:

    http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=lifestyle news&subclass=innovation&story_id=540093&category=science

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Is anything a historical taboo? After a certain time has elapsed probably not e.g I’m sure the Viking invasions weren’t funny for a good few generations after, the Famine is a source of humour for many a al Langerland (fyi, J mc Connell between 1 and 1.5 million died of hunger & disease in 1845-48, is it another famnine you’re talking about?) and in a few centuries time maybe even the Holocaust will be a subject of mainstream humour. Hope not because it was on a different scale to anyhting else but time will probably blur the horror of it.

  • JG

    Lord Craigavon
    “We have the Orange Order, the Black Brethern and the B-Specials and they constitue all the fascism that Ulster wants.”
    Care to name the Noble Prize winner who said “I do” at Nuremberg style rallies with an organisation that made no secret of its links to the BNP?

  • Secur O’Crat

    Is this laughing at the Holocuast or the Jocks? How about this one:

    Some people do try to twist the Irish Holocaust. Free and open debate should expose lies, something Austria and France, both of whom have anti Holocaust denial laws, should know something about.
    How about Italy? The Italians still chase down ex SS men but have never put on trial any of its own many war criminals from Libya, Ethiopia etc. How about the British officers who handed all those Croats and White Russians over to Mad Dog Tito? etc etc etc.
    As for the fascist state of Israel and its pschotic American friends who kick started the current Hoocuast in Iraq. (but maybe Iraqis don’t count; the Yanks don’t even bother counting them)

  • The Pict

    That when parliament returned a vote that William of Orange did not like papally financed soldiers stationed themselves within Westminster so the MPs would return the result that Willaim wanted. They did so by one vote.