Brothers in the Lord: The DUP MP and LVF frontman

DUP MPs Jeffrey Donaldson and Ian Paisley Jnr have been in what Suzanne Breen in the Sunday Tribune has referred to as ‘bizarre correspondences’ with convicted loyalist killer, Pastor Kenny McClinton, over the St. Andrews Agreement.

The loyalist figure, who represented the LVF in dealings with the decommissioning body headed by Gen John De Chastelain, expressed his opposition to the deal in the correspondences which he released to the Sunday Tribune. Most significantly, however, is the content of the responses from the two leading DUP figures.

In his email, Paisley Jnr remarks, “We couldn’t kill them but we can destroy them and their ideology.” In his email, Donaldson addresses McClinton as “a brother in the Lord.”

Excerpts from the article are carried below.In one email, Paisley jnr states: “We couldn’t kill them but we can destroy them and their ideology.” A republican who accepts the police is no longer a republican, he says.
In his email, Donaldson addresses the convicted loyalist paramilitary as “a brother in the Lord”.
“It is clear Sinn Fein/IRA are under serious internal pressure and may well be incapable of delivering on what is required in terms of support for participation in British democracy, support for a British Police Service and recognition of British Courts and British Justice.
All of this with no prospect of a United Ireland in our lifetime. No wonder their rank and file are deeply concerned.
“These decisions are a million miles away from 1916 and the declaration of a 32-county republic. In short, the IRA has lost the battle for a United Ireland.”
The article continues with Jeffrey Donaldson warning that a unionist rejection of what’s on offer will see the British government proceed with a “deeply green Plan B”, including joint sovereignty. He then asked the ex-loyalist paramilitary, “Is this what you fought for, Kenny?”

McClinton was clearly angered by the St Andrews Deal and the tone and content of the emails from the DUP leaders. In his email to Ian Paisley jnr, McClinton accuses the leadership of “playing party politics with your groupies, flatterers, and ‘YES’ men”.
“And while we are at it YOUNG MAN, don’t you ever in your life question my loyalty or commitment to the country I love! There’s more loyalty in my big toe than you have in your entire body!
“Where were whippersnappers like YOU when I was walking the wings of the Hblocks stark naked on the loyalist blanket protest? Where were you then, BOY?

“How dare you throw snide remarks at me. I went out on the 10th May 1977 and shot a man DEAD to take all public transport off the roads of Ulster . . . why? Because I was into shooting people dead? No!
In an attempt to back up your father’s less than popular call for a strike.
“Like the rest of you political clowns, you make plenty of TALK but actually do nothing but draw wages. I’m finished with you, and your party.”
In his response to Donaldson, McClinton claims ex-loyalist prisoners are “treated like something scraped off the sole of someone’s shoe; unemployable; living on social security benefits” while
“DUP politicians and their sons. . . were put into good, high-paid jobs, amass large bank balances over years and years of our poverty, and wined and dined by the so-called ‘great and the good’ whose company the DUP now seem to covet while ex-Loyalist combatants are treated as scum.
Are these, perhaps, what I ‘fought for’, Jeffrey?”

Jeffrey Donaldson asserts in the article that “Kenny McClinton is someone with a terrorist background who has himself stood for election and failed to achieve a mandate. He is mistaken if he thinks by publishing these emails he will embarrass the DUP. I’m happy to stand by everything I wrote.” He further accused McClinton of behaviour which was “very unChristian [for] someone who professes to be a brother in the Lord”.
Ian Paisley jnr’s response was “My emails speak for themselves.
I’ve no difficulty with their publication . . . indeed, given the person I was dealing with, it’s not unexpected. Kenny had no problems begging me to help get him a visa to the US where he wants to ‘preach The Word’.
“He has a lot more to lose from the publication of these emails than me. By his actions, he is undermining unionism.
It’s Sinn Fein which will be celebrating the actions of Kenny McClinton.”

  • middle-class taig

    There’s something terribly sinister about the tome of the extracts published. Following this, one would expect the Belfast media to give the DUP fairly short shrift when they purport to hold their noses over contacts with Sinn Fein. However, there’s no particular history of the domestic media holding the DUP to account for their hypocrisy, so I’ll not be holding my breath.

    The lack of full transcripts is regrettable, but the extracts are interesting in themselves. To my mind, they tell us three things:

    – divisions in Unionism are deeper and more serious than the media is reporting. We haven’t even gotten to the flood plain of the Rubicon, never mind commenced the crossing. If erstwhile hangers-on are jumping ship already, a political bloodbath awaits at the ferry terminal;

    – the DUP are spooked about this. Can you imagine two Shinner heavyweights entering into direct email correspondence with semi-detached semi-dissidents, begging them to stay inside the tent and spinning SAA as the destruction of their enemies and a basis for rejoicing? Donaldson’s an MP for crying out loud. Doesn’t he have people to whom this kind self-abasement can be delegated?;

    – the DUP high command is dangerously fractured. Why on earth would you put Junior and Jeffrey out to quell dissent among loyalist porteurs-d’eau? Neither of them has any credentials in that community. Surely you’d put out a hardliner if you wanted to steady that particular ship! One is left with the impression that there’s nobody in the hard-line wing prepared to defend SAA to McClinton.

    One final observation. The DUP have shown over the last few years that they can play offence, but now that they are on defence, they look confused and clumsy. With Paisly visibly weakening, they have neither quarterback nor defensive leader, and with dissension in the ranks it is becoming clear that whoever was calling the plays in the past is no longer being listened to by the whole team. Each former lietenant now seems to have his own playbook, and each of those playbooks seems designed only to give its owner the starring role. At the first sign of resistance (both internal and from within the broader extremist family of unionism), they are now offering to the public the unseemly spectacle of key players running around playing positions to which they are ill-suited, and getting publicly out-manoeuvred by the intellectual giants of violent loyalism.

    The DUP need to get their tackle in order, and they need to do it fast.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    In retrospect…

    “You(r) Pilate-esque hand-washing of the tri-colors and sneers over young McIlveen were of note.”

    FECK! Should have been “was of note” (singular, referring to your hand-washing), not “were of note (plural, splitting the two items that you washed your hands of into one item you washed your hands of and another item.)”.

    MY bad. Proper intent, improper verbiage. Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

    Properly scribed, “”You(r) Pilate-esque hand-washing of the tri-colors and sneers over young McIlveen was of note.”

  • fair_deal

    Dantheman

    Disagreement is not evasion.

    DC

    Thank you for accepting your wording was at fault not my interpretation of the first draft.

    Considering the topic is it not interesting how a person can easily type a comment with one intended meaning but is viewed with an entirely different one?

    Those two quotes are your supporting evidence? So I agree with the criticism of the flags and object to anyone adopting ‘culture’ as a defence. So even when I agree with nationalist criticism I am somehow doing a Pilate. Hmmmm.

  • bertie

    Scary-eire

    Apology reluctantly accepted [I was relishing the indignation ;)]

    As terrorists I don’t consider McGuinness as one bit ex. He is proud of his invlovement in terrorism and has never as much as pretended shame.

    I don’t condone what Hume did, negotiating with terorists is not justifed IMO.

    As FD has made clear, we are dealing with incomplete information, so the floowing is said in that context.

    JD as a born again Christian is more than willing to accept religions conversion in someone as a trigger to turning away from terrorism so it is no suprise that he would refer to a pastor in the terms that he has. As has been mentioned JD has been in contact with VMcK and will almost certianly have been in contact with Sean O Callaghan.

    I would consider that someone who was supposed to have had a conversion, had repudiated his past and become a pastor could be considered an ex-terrorist and as such I don’t blame JD for being in contact.

    I have no problem in principle with any terrorist who has genuinely repudiated their past and accepts that it was totally morally wrong and inexcusable. (I have had contact with one or two) I think that his is what this guy has presnted himself as. However,it appears from this guy’s comments he seems far from ashamed of his past and offers it up as testiment to his loyalty. He is not someone that I would wish to be associated with.

  • Ellesmere Dragge

    What astounds is the lack of discretion or integrity shown by Donaldson and Paisley in having dealings with McClinton. Any public figure ought to have more wit than come within a barge-pole (or email’s) length.

    [1] McClinton, for all his reborn faith, shows in these emails a continuing penchant for violence.

    [2] There is a problemic psychological dissociation between
    [a] Kenny McClinton, Shankill rat-associate and self-styled “one of the most feared men in Northern Ireland (Ulster)” [sic], and
    (b) “Dr Cornelius K. McClinton BA (Hons); MA; Ph.D. ; D.Litt.” (as he elevates himself in his email). By the way, the only genuine article there seems to be the Open University degree in incarceration studies.

    [3] Kenny’s “ordination” is by the “Moments of Faith” mission of 314 North Church Street, Waco, Texas, 76702. The church calls itself variously “Moments of Faith Interdenominational” and “Moments of Faith International”. This seems partly to be a prison-visitor by the name of Patti Caninhton (prison-visiting is another of Kenny’s activities: “each prisoner receives a small cash gift to help with prison needs each time a visit takes place” — hmmm). It seems to operate from only this one address. The email address of “Moments of Faith Interdenominational” is hetzel4@juno.net (see below).

    [4] Since Kenny would never make it past the US Immigration (and he has apparently applied), how did the ordination take place?

    [5] Kenny’s Ulster/American Christian Fellowship seems equally to be a family firm (see the gory details at http://www.ulsterchristians.org/ministry_support.asp).
    The American arm is a post box in the name of Pastor J. Hetzel (see above) of Royse City, Texas 75189, and claims tax breaks under the Moments of Faith International.

    [6] More worrying, and “by your friends, we shall know you” is Kenny’s link to Combat 18 (see, for examples, http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/archive/adair.html
    and http://www.guardian.co.uk/racism/Story/0,,338951,00.html

  • nmc

    Thing is Marty, Gerry etc. do not deny any involvement in the troubles. The DUP try to present themselves as being above reproach when it comes to dealing with ex-terrorists. They do deal with ex-terrorists, and in the past current ones.

    Their hypocrisy becomes apparant as they continue to present themselves as being morally superior to their oponents, when in fact their hands are as dirty or more so than the majority of parties in the North.

    (Incidentally, someone becomes an ex-terrorist when he/she stops carrying out acts of terrorism, not when they stop and repent and turn to God or whatever).

  • Dread Cthulhu

    No, F_D, that is not all of your quotes — some of us, however, have day-jobs, even if they’re night jobs where you are.

    Likewise, I need look no further than the two-step you’re putting on in this forum for the “double-think” you try to pass off regarding Unionism and Loyalism, as others have pointed out. Your efforts to dissect events, to try and excise Loyalist aspects from what you call “legitimate Unionist culture” border on the Orwellian — just haven’t decided if it’s more 1984 or Animal Farm, with Unionists bleating “ex-Loyalist good, ex=Republcan bad” or something out of the Ministry of Thought — claiming the bonfires are a legitimate form of Unionist expression, yet try to create a firewall from the Loyalist expression that go hand-in-hand and cheek-to-jowl with these events. Bonfire good, Tricolor with the erudite slogan “F*ck Mickey-bo” barely worth acknowledging, since that would detract from this glorious expression of “legimate Unionist culture.” Yet they burn in the same even in the same flames. The two are inextricably linked, just as Unionism and Loyalism.

  • bertie

    “Incidentally, someone becomes an ex-terrorist when he/she stops carrying out acts of terrorism, not when they stop and repent”

    Ian Brady hasn’t committed a murder in a long long time. In my book he still is one. A terrorist does not become an ex terrorist until he has repuditated his terrorism.

    Can someone turn the bold off please.

  • nmc

    A terrorist does not become an ex terrorist until he has repuditated his terrorism.

    I prefer to operate within the confines of the English language, for simplicity’s sake. Someone is an ex-terorist when they stop being a terorist, a lady who divorces is an ex-wife, regardless of any other factor.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    In general you seem to be applying your perception of Unionism as being what I believe and advocate. Neither is necessarily true.

    “No, F_D, that is not all of your quotes – some of us, however, have day-jobs, even if they’re night jobs where you are.”

    1. Well if those are your best two adding to them won’t make much difference whether you have the time or not. Also it isn’t the first time you tried putting words in my mouth that I hadn’t said.
    2. If you can’t back up what you said there is no need to be irked at me or your job commitments.

    “to try and excise Loyalist aspects from what you call “legitimate Unionist culture” border on the Orwellian”

    To celebrate a key date in a community’s and country’s history is legitimate. To celebrate a sectarian murder is bad. If you think that is Orwellian then you have misunderstood his works.

  • Butterknife

    I wonder if this will help.

  • DK

    The facts are and always have been obvious.

    1. The DUP are not a terrorist organisation and have no formal links with Loyalist terror groups.

    2. DUP members have a lot of sympathy with Loyalist terrorists and at times will have agreed with their actions.

    3. Some DUP members have been terrorists, may still be members of terrorist groups and / or have given meaniful support to them.

    4. The DUP attitude to SF/IRA is clearly hypocritical.

    5. The vast majority of Unionists, (DUP or otherwise), will, in the past, have voiced support for some Loyalist terrorist actions, including me.

    6. The vast majority of Nationalists, (SF or otherwise), will, in the past, have voiced support for some Republican terrorist actions.

    7. We are all hypocrites.

    By the way, some years back, I discussed Kenny McC with some ex UVF prisoners who served time with him. Their strong view was that Kenny McC is in no way a godly man. He is an incredibly brutal thug who enjoys violence. He is probably unstable and dangerous.

    He is right out there with the likes of Lenny Murphy, (Shankill Butcher for those who don’t know). Of all the characters to talk to on the Loyalist side, he is about the worst choice.

    The language employed by Baby Doc and JD gives no recognition to this guys background. It is disturbing but explainable by the pts given above.

  • fair_deal

    nmc

    “Thing is Marty, Gerry etc. do not deny any involvement in the troubles”

    Gerry does deny it.

  • bertie

    “I prefer to operate within the confines of the English language, for simplicity’s sake. Someone is an ex-terorist when they stop being a terorist, a lady who divorces is an ex-wife, regardless of any other factor.

    That is because divorce ends the status of being a wife. If you have been involved in a terrorist organisation and have not changed your mindset, you are still a terrorist. Huntly is not an ex-murderer.

    “Thing is Marty, Gerry etc. do not deny any involvement in the troubles. ”

    and they have no problem with their involvment in terrorism, which is why I have a problem with them.

  • nmc

    /b> Maybe this will work…

    Gerry denies membership of the IRA, however I doubt he would deny involvement in the troubles, I’m sure many of us have read “Brownie’s” communications during the Hunger Strikes.

  • bertie

    DK

    “The DUP attitude to SF/IRA is clearly hypocritical. ”
    Why?

    “The vast majority of Unionists, (DUP or otherwise), will, in the past, have voiced support for some Loyalist terrorist actions, including me. ”

    Since when has this been a fact? If you have supprted loyalist terrorist actions that does not mean that the vast majority of the rest of us have.

    “The vast majority of Nationalists, (SF or otherwise), will, in the past, have voiced support for some Republican terrorist actions”

    If it hadn’t been for the vote for SF, I would have argued more forcefully agaist this. However, even considering the SF vote, it is the majority but I wouldn’t accept that it is the “vast majority” as for those nationalists who never voted SF, I have no reason to assume that they have ever supported any terrorist action.

    We’re still being “bold”

  • nmc

    If you have been involved in a terrorist organisation and have not changed your mindset

    Of course you have changed your mindset – you no longer carry out acts of terrorism.

    For your analogy to be accurate the ex-wife has to denounce her state of mind when she got married, express regret that the marriage took place and to promise never to marry again.

    In everyday terms a person can be ex-anything with no other qualification. If I change jobs I’m ex-I.T., I don’t have to renounce I.T. and express regret for having been working in I.T. in the first place. There is no additional provision for the term “ex-terrorist” that I’m aware of, and it behaves in the same way as any other word with the prefix “ex”.

    Anyway, /pedant off> Nice debating language bertie. I’m off home, so I’ll check out any reply the morra…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “To celebrate a key date in a community’s and country’s history is legitimate. To celebrate a sectarian murder is bad. If you think that is Orwellian then you have misunderstood his works. ”

    Ah, but there were no shortage of instances where part of the celebration of the latter were part and parcel with the celebration of the former. It is ony with a certain amount of “double-think” that one can try and claim otherwise. The flag and slogan were on the bonfire, a neat, single package, one in the same, not two seperate events. To mark the Twelfth, they celebrated in the death of a child. As such, I think it is you who deliberately misunderstand the thrust of my comment, just as you seek to deliberately misunderstand most of the discussion in this forum. Your deliberate misconstruing of the reference does you no service, FD.

    Likewise, most telling are the questions you leave unanswered — as previously noted, you want full information before remarking negatively on the e-mail exchange, offering “maybes” and “couldbes” as to “what they might have really meant.” However, innuendo and “everybody knows” has been sufficient to hang, metaphorically speaking, Republicans, full evidence be damned.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    July 4th is celebrated with fireworks, if a racist uses that event to spell out in fireworks “lynching is great” that doesn’t mean the celebration of 4th july or the use of fireworks becomes illegitimate.

    I don’t have full information so I don’t make definitive statements – this must mean xyz. I consider that appropriate cautiousness.

    As for your characterisation of my comments regarding republicans I’ll treat it with the scepticism it deserves.

    nmc

    He denies being Brownie too. Richard McAuley says he was Brownie.

  • Doctor Who

    Billy

    “John Hume’s clear aim when he negotiated with Gerry Adams was to get the IRA to stop the violence and disarm.”

    That might well be, however Gerry Adams always denied that the talks with Hume where for that purpose. Instead Adams claimed that they where to seek common ground on election pacts etc.

    This did help fuel Unionist angst at the time as the IRA where still actively involved in sectarian murder.

    Do you not think it is a bit rich for republicans to now seek the moral high ground regarding dealings with terrorists. While I view the whole process as a necessary evil, it is worth remembering that the IRA are still engaged in criminal activity. Is it convenient for Nationalists to forget this when they vote for Sinn Fein, making them the largest Nationalist party. Does it make the one time SDLP voters sleep better, convincing themseves they´ve voted for democrats.

    Linking the DUP to Loyalist paramilitaries is no feet in itself. At one time every Political institution has been infiltrated with paramilitaries at one point. Ira members have been members of the British Army, but of course that is infiltration and not collusion.

    Again the quotes in Chris Donelley´s blog are partial and designed to drum up nationalist fervour. The very fact that they are not being discussed outside Slugger O´toole says to me that there is no substance in the report.

    Fair Deal

    I am disgusted by Dread Cthulhu remarks and his refusal to detract. Often he reminds me of ball not man. Hypocrite.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    “However, innuendo and “everybody knows” has been sufficient to hang, metaphorically speaking, Republicans, full evidence be damned.”

    Mopery and whataboutery in it´s dullest form.

  • Doctor Who

    nmc

    Everything alright at home. It sounds as if you are preoccupied with “weemen” issues.

  • Hippy O’ Critter

    Doctor Who,

    “Again the quotes in Chris Donelley´s blog are partial and designed to drum up nationalist fervour. The very fact that they are not being discussed outside Slugger O´toole says to me that there is no substance in the report”

    No the quotes are from a reputable paper who are in possession of the full e-mails which the DUP are aware of, and the same DUP have not denied either in part or in full the existance of said e-mails and by your own attempted dismissal of documented fact have made yourself look extremley foolish at best, or worse politically blinkered due to being agenda driven.

    “the very fact that they are not being discussed outside Sluggerotoole says to intelligent people that the DUP have pulled a lot of strings with the right puppets and that apart from the reporter that broke the story no one else in the local media really have any DUP sources worth a damn to probe.

  • bertie

    “Of course you have changed your mindset – you no longer carry out acts of terrorism. ”

    aq change in activity does not mean a change in mindset where it really matters, i.e. that terrorism is immoral

    “For your analogy to be accurate the ex-wife has to denounce her state of mind when she got married, express regret that the marriage took place and to promise never to marry again. ”

    no because it doesn’t apply being a ife or not is not about the sort of person you are. You ould still be the marrying kind.

    Huntly is not an ex murderer.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr Who: ” I am disgusted by Dread Cthulhu remarks and his refusal to detract. Often he reminds me of ball not man. Hypocrite. ”

    I suspect the word you were groping for is “retract.”

    Fair_Deal: “July 4th is celebrated with fireworks, if a racist uses that event to spell out in fireworks “lynching is great” that doesn’t mean the celebration of 4th july or the use of fireworks becomes illegitimate. ”

    No, but it would bring into question the celebrations organizers and those who orchastrated the fireworks, would it not? Likewise, the inclusion of Loyalist symbolism and activities into a Unionist event should call into question those who organized and orchastrated the event.

    fair_deal: “As for your characterisation of my comments regarding republicans I’ll treat it with the scepticism it deserves. ”

    Did you not, on April 10, 2006, state that the IRA robbed the Great Northern Bank? What, pray tell, was your evidence? If you have full and conclusive evidence,, why have you not shared it with the authorities? Or, in the absence of actualy evidence, are you not simply going with the most convential interpretation of the few facts in hand?

    In short, Fair_Deal, you seem to be going to far greater lengths to rationalize Junior and the Pastor — a much smaller stake, given Junior’s tendency to shoot himself in the foot — than in the consideration of an event that nearly derailed the Peace Process.

    I don’t begrudge you your ideological blinders, FD… just don’t expect them to be treated as sacred.

  • fair_deal

    Doctor Who

    DC has clarified his comments and accepted his error on this forum and privately (See his 2:04pm comment).

    DC

    My opinion about the Northern Bank is based upon:
    1. The public comments of members at various levels of the two police forces investigating the robbery, the PSNI and the Garda.
    2. The information the police officers based their comments upon has been the subject to independent scrutiny by the IMC, and it concurs with their respective conclusions.

    Incidentally:
    1. I didn’t pluck it from the ether and decide immediately after the robbery that it was the Provos.
    2. I did not need to engage in pseudo-psychology of the people involved.
    3. I did not base it on the assumption “Look at Gerry Adams et als track record, it must have been them”.
    4. I am open to the possibility my opinion is wrong.

    The blinkers have been demonstrated by yourself by insisting that only one interpretation is possible of the email excerpts while some of us are open-minded.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    If you reserve the right to point out my typos, well then I reserve the right to point out you are no more than a foolish person.

    Denying the IRA where behind the Northern Bank robbery makes you look very foolish.

    Hippy O´crite.

    1. Why did the newspaper not publish the full quotes.

    2. Why did Chris summarise already partial quotes.

    3. What makes you think the DUP can suppress the national media. LOL LOL.

  • frank

    “To celebrate a key date in a community’s and country’s history is legitimate. To celebrate a sectarian murder is bad.”

    The Orange Order seem to commemorate both.

    Killy William and the Shankill butchers are commemorated by the orange order at the same marches every year.

    They don’t seem to see the contradiction of celebrating the battle of the Boyne alongside the sectarian mass murderers of modern day unionism.

  • Hippy O’ Critter

    Doctor Who,

    “1. Why did the newspaper not publish the full quotes.”
    (so you now admit that there were full quotes)

    2. Why did Chris summarise already partial quotes.”
    (so you now confirm the above statement was not a misprint by reiteraiting the quotes were not in full)

    Which means that you must have been privvy to the original e-mails in their entirety and you really now have the added problem of explaining your post below which you posted at 5.47pm.

    “The very fact that they are not being discussed outside Slugger O´toole says to me that there is no substance in the report.”

    WHAT NO SUBSTANCE IN E-MAILS WHICH YOU HAVE READ PERSONALLY

  • Doctor Who

    HippY Oýawn

    Stay off the drugs, nerd.

  • Hippy O’ Critter

    I am disgusted by Dread Cthulhu remarks and his refusal to detract. Often he reminds me of ball not man. Hypocrite.
    Posted by Doctor Who on Dec 12, 2006 @ 05:47 PM

    Poor Doctor Who was so disgusted because of someones refusal to retract but is not in anyway shape or form embarrassed by his own refusal to answer, as seen by his last post.

    “HippY Oýawn

    Stay off the drugs, nerd.
    Posted by Doctor Who on Dec 12, 2006 @ 11:53 PM”

    Such an itelligent remark.

  • Rhodey

    Kenny McClinton seems like a pretty chill dude if i were loyalist i would definatly throw my support behind this guy, if you had more Kenney McClintons and less DUP you guys would be having alot less problems right now with the shinner takeover

  • Doctor Who

    Hippy Ocrettin

    If you behave like a nerd, I reserve the right to call you one.

    Your post was a classic example of trolling and I´m sure your IP address can be atributed to many other non de plume.

  • Hippy O’ Critter

    Doctor Who,

    I asked a question of you which you brazenly tried to lie you way out of because you were wrong and foolishly wrong, when I did you the service of pointing out your mistakes in order that you could avoid further embarrassment on a public forum you became personally insulting and have only highlighted that your crassness is based on internationalism as it obviously knows no bounds.

    You have insinuated that my original post was incorrect which it wasn’t and then in trying to reinforce you position or as an attempt to extricate yourself from a lost position employed your finger before engaging your brain and completely demolished your own arguement.

    On being reminded of the fact that if debating suicide was a university degree you would have achieved a first if not graduating with honours, you decided to switch tack and hurl full blooded insults instead, you have called me a troll, a cretin, a multi poster, a nerd, and also of being under the influence of drugs.
    All this for pointing out an error either by mistake or design by yourself, it’s at this point I have come to appreciate the good fortune that the closest I will ever come to you is through a computer moniter and a keyboard.

    Just for the record I read Slugger virtually everyday but have posted only once, that was on the tradgic murder of Robert McCartney and was posted from a friends house who is a very regular poster on SluggerO’Toole, I see by your last post timed at after 2am in the morning that it is clear that you are not gainfully employed… tell me Doctor Who do you think the childish outbursts could be holding you back in life, the inability to stand tall like a man, or just the refusal to be an honest and decent human being.

    Thank you and good day…
    Eamon O’Niell

  • Doctor Who

    You really are a nerd!!!!

    BTW some of us don´t have to go into an office to work, nerd.

    Perhaps before you post again you shouldn´t mis quote and then make demands of people, nerd.

    BTW 2.02am GMT my last post, what makes you think I´m in the same time zone as you nerd, although you are most probably still in the last century.

    Bye nerd.

  • smirkyspice

    hilarious…Eamon, as Quik-e-Mart Apu would say, “thank you and come again!”

  • CincinnatiDave

    There is something profoundly sad about this whole thing.
    For me its a case of “there but for the grace of God go I.”

    25 years ago Ian Paisley was my hero as a young protestant teenager. I had his election poster on my wall & his signature (just a plain “IP”) in my bible. I loved standing listening to his fiery speeches & knew he was the only man to stand up for us in the west of Ulster.

    Travelling to a govt school in a nationalist district was always fun & seeing your classmates beaten to a pulp not uncommon. The murders of a number of my friends fathers (businessmen, police & UDR) left a legacy of hatred that was very hard for me to get free from.
    We were & are a besieged community. Besieged in our thinking as well as in our neighbourhoods.

    Cementing it all together was this Ulster protestant (truly orange nationalist) thinking/identity that was not unlike the ancient Israelites or some of Americas first settlers – we were almost a chosen people… so fighting the enemy was almost a God given responsibility. “For God & for Ulster” it was & always would be

    My heart breaks when I read a story like this & see the waste of lives that the history of Ireland & N.Ireland in particular is. The potent mix of politics with religion & national identity has been a poison we have drunk from for a couple of generations. It has blinded us to the genuine plight of our neighbours in both communities. Their real hurts, wounds & feelings. We have a superficial, pharisaical religion far removed from the roots of our faith.

    Thankfully God rescued me from this & I was on a journey of faith that took years. I had one question more than any other to answer: Which King would I serve? I chose Jesus & left Billy to his followers. Life hasn’t been the same since.

    May God grant these men the true freedom of the cross.

    David

  • bertie

    David

    I am glad that you have found something that works for you. However

    “Cementing it all together was this Ulster protestant (truly orange nationalist) thinking/identity that was not unlike the ancient Israelites or some of Americas first settlers – we were almost a chosen people… so fighting the enemy was almost a God given responsibility. “For God & for Ulster” it was & always would be ”

    This may have been your Ulster Protestant thinking. Apart from anything else being from the Paisley wing of Protestantism would put you in a minority, (no offence to Free Presbyterians) and indeed bing a Free P does not necessarily translate to being a Paisleyite politically. The enemy are not those who arn’t ulster protestants but the idea and acceptance of the idea that some have, of whatever religion or politics, that their politics justifies murder.

  • CincinnatiDave

    “I am glad that you have found something that works for you.”
    Thanks Bertie. I guess serving a living king instead of a dead Dutch King wasn’t a hard decision to make. However living with the repercussions of it.. thats where the rubber met the road.

    “This may have been your Ulster Protestant thinking. Apart from anything else being from the Paisley wing of Protestantism would put you in a minority, (no offence to Free Presbyterians) and indeed bing a Free P does not necessarily translate to being a Paisleyite politically. ”

    All well & good Bertie but the Free P had a thing against rock music & that never sat well with me, never mind chaining the kids swings on a Sunday. Seeing the buck-ejits protest against Billy Graham, that was the straw that broke the camels back.
    So no I was never in the Free P or in the DUP (Don’t Underestimate Paisley) but was like a lot of ulstermen influenced by events in N.I. & by their politics.

    “The enemy are not those who arn’t ulster protestants but the idea and acceptance of the idea that some have, of whatever religion or politics, that their politics justifies murder.”

    Heres the rub Bertie. I totally agree. In fact I would go one step further in saying because I have hated my enemies -republicans/nationalists/catholics with a passion during my life I too am guilty of murder before God. OK, not before a court in any land. But as a follower of Christ, completely guilty in His court. It is his standard that I want to live by. That hatred was not in me when I was born. I learned to hate. Listening to community & family events. Singing the tribal songs & learning “my culture’. The religious/nationalist dimension of N.I protestantism gave it all a form of legitimacy as we are reared in dear old ulster. Yes in many respects the hatred & seeking revenge was a reaction to evil carried out by IRA/INLA. It seems to me that both communities have a real hard time understanding the others sense of loss & genuine hurts. I have friends & family to this day that deny the catholic population were in any way discriminated against; civil rights was a republican plot & are still proud of Burntollet Bridge. Neither community has a pure heart, clean hands or an unblemished history. Instead of pointing at the other side we need to rexamine ourselves & our communities, deal honestly with the past & reconcile with the other community. For goodness sake we share the same wee piece of earth & no one else is going to do it for us.

    david