Name change a “push for intolerant mono-cultural dominance”

Andrew McCann has a clear idea of what the name of the city up there at the end of the railway line is called. One of the comments on that thread caught my eye, from a particularly “shared future” perspective.

“Londonderry”, even if only used in formal correspondence, does demonstrate a mix of Gaelic and British cultures and some shared and rather interesting history. It is sad that some people can’t respect that and instead push for intolerant a mono-cultural dominance.

  • kensei

    “The official name should be Londonderry or Derry if you prefer,”

    As in “It should be officially called Londonderry” and you can call it want you like. Once again, does any Unionist poster have any sensible compromise to offer, rather than the status quo?

    ” We also have the likes of Kensei banging on about Democracy and demanding the rights of communities to rename streets to whatever they want.

    My message to Kensei is when this starts to happen and we start having people in mixed areas demanding their cul de sac be changed to Francis Hughes Close or Michael Stone parade, because they slightly out number themuns, where will that lead us. ”

    Did I say individuals inhabitants of a street should have the right to rename it? No, I most certainly fucking well didn’t. I made a broader point about democratic support. But if there is broader support among the wider area and community, and they are applying pressure though the right channels and it means so fucking much to them, then I see no reason why people should object. And if that applies to Michael Stone Street, then let then as it says a hell of a lot more about them.

    But then, I actually believe in democracy rather than just using as an excuse to keep undesirables out.

  • Doctor Who

    _Doctor Who

    “The official name should be Londonderry or Derry if you prefer,”

    Kensei

    “As in “It should be officially called Londonderry” and you can call it want you like. Once again, does any Unionist poster have any sensible compromise to offer, rather than the status quo? ”

    No Kensei, if you read my quote it implies two official names…which one you use would be up to yourself. The BBC already use both, contrary to another post, ´Translink officially use both terms. Would you make it illegal for ROYAL Mail to deliver to an address that said Londonderry.

    Again you show that your main objection is that you see London as being Unionist and Protestant so hence has no legitamacy.

    Your bedtime utopian United Ireland dream Kensei must be a nightmare for Unionists.

  • Cahal

    “Again you show that your main objection is that you see London as being Unionist and Protestant so hence has no legitamacy. ”

    I doubt if anybody sees London as either unionist or protestant. Recent polls would seem to suggest the opposite.

    At least you are now offering a compromise, if you are suggesting both names be made official.

    Good man, it only took 101 posts for a unionist to offer a compromise.

  • kensei

    “No Kensei, if you read my quote it implies two official names…which one you use would be up to yourself.”

    I read your quote and it was not at clear that was what you were implying. That to me, would be an acceptable compromise, though I can’t help thinking that the Walled City proposal is much better for the City on a Administrative and Tourist basis.

    “Again you show that your main objection is that you see London as being Unionist and Protestant so hence has no legitamacy.”

    The London has nothing to do with religion. It is however, a symbol of Britain exercising illegitimate authority in Ireland against the wishes of the people that live there. And it sounds bollocks, to boot. I am not a Unionist. It’s not illegitimate to be one, just stupid :P. But I am obviously going to disagree on points. Stop telling me how I think, ta.

    “Your bedtime utopian United Ireland dream Kensei must be a nightmare for Unionists.”

    I’m sure it is, because a United Ireland means no more Union. Sorry, can’t get rid of that one in that scenario.

  • hovetwo

    Have to say I thought Jaffa’s post #36 one of the most interesting on the subject of a United Ireland I’ve read on Slugger in months.

    The concept of a dominion within a commonwealth (republic?) sounds strange, but then, so did External Association until Britain swiped it to deal with the Indian Question (royalties please?).

    It also addresses a problem that I, as a nationalist, have never resolved – no matter how generous the concessions to Unionists, the standard models for a United Ireland offer a Diet Coke version of Britishness. People still have to ask what’s in it for them.

    Under Jaffa’s scenario, unionists would gain a stronger Northern Irish identity through Dail Uladh – one that could be shared with nationalists – and they would still have a strong, constitutionally guaranteed link with Britain.

    I could easily imagine Dail Uladh being one of four provincial assemblies on the island, with a federal Dail in Dublin. Each provincial assembly would have the scale to manage regional infrastructure and retain substantial autonomy, as well as having oversight of county council activity. Not sure about the distributist economic policies though…

    Oh, and if you think the FG / UUP ticket would hoover up votes, just wait until the FF / DUP machine swings into action…!

  • Doctor Who

    Kensei

    It is worth remembering when you next bang on about Democracy, that when they signed the good friday agreement, Sinn Fein where accepting that Northern Ireland is a political reality and entity. Only a clear majority of the people of NI can change it´s status.

    Therfore the legitamacy is no longer questioned. So why then is being a Unionist stupid?

    I don´t say that aspiring to a United Ireland is stupid, I say that that will never happen, so it is best to work together for the better of Northern Ireland. Mutual respect and parity of esteem works both ways.

    It´s not going to go away you know.

  • BeardyBoy

    Like I said Jaffa – you may make a good taig yet, avery interesting tome is Hilaire Bellocs “The Servile State” – read it – it will definitely make you think

  • Henry94

    Doctor Who

    I say that that will never happen, so it is best to work together for the better of Northern Ireland.

    There is no need to reject the possibility of a united Ireland in order to work to improve the lives of the people who live in the six-counties through the institutions of the agreement.

    Sometimes that will be in competition with the south (and often with Scotland and Wales too) for investment and jobs. Often it will involve cooperation on an all-Ireland basis.

    There are politicians sitting in the Dail who believe that Europe should evolve into a state. but that does not stop them working on a day to day basis in the interests of the people who elected them.

    Unionists often appear to be looking for some process or declaration that will stop nationalists from being nationalists. But that is never going to happen. What we accept as legitimate in the Agreement as the way forward. Northern Ireland has no agreed legitimacy other than the Agreement or outside the Agreement.

  • dantheman

    It will be a great day when this Londonderry horseshit is finally knocked on the head once and for all. Lets not forget that only 7% of the land mass of Ireland is under unionist control. Well actually non eof it is as we still have direct rule from london, and they hardly think Ni is part of the union at all.

    Nationalists can learn from the attitude of HM government, treat unionists with the contempt that they deserve. We should concentrate on developing our own areas under an all ireland (economic if not political for the time being) context. Sooner or later the orangeman will be beating down our door.

    Time to ignore the attention seeking orangemen, with their silly parades and their pulpit stlye politicians. They’ve had their day…….and they all know it.

  • simple plan

    “Derry is Doire. London is in England.

    Washington DC is in the United States.

    and where do you think that name came from, you f*cking simpleton? Hmmm?

  • oh really?

    “Time to ignore the attention seeking orangemen, with their silly parades and their pulpit stlye politicians. They’ve had their day…….and they all know it.”

    Try and ignore our weapons, mate. Our day is yet to come. We’ll hold what we have.

  • CincinnatiDave

    “Lets not forget that only 7% of the land mass of Ireland is under unionist control.”

    The fact anyone would even know this is somewhere between silly & sinister. How was it counted? Actual property owned or council controlled areas? Was it “land-mass” bought, rented or stolen?? Where is the irish Mugabe to set us all free…

    “Nationalists can learn from the attitude of HM government, treat unionists with the contempt that they deserve.”

    Are we talking here of unionist leaders/politicians or ordinary people?

    Ordinary unionists have shown their own contempt for both the political leaders by staying home in elections & for the church leaders in leaving in droves & the paramilitaries for being the thugs that they are. It is the sheer dearth of original thinking & unwillingness to walk away from the past that is the tragedy of NI unionism. But this kind of blanket statement from you is the very mentality that pushes the ordinary folks back into the arms of the tribal leadership. Yes tribal, for thats what its like.

    “We should concentrate on developing our own areas under an all ireland (economic if not political for the time being) context.”

    Will that be “developing our own areas” in euros or pounds? Start paying your taxes to Dublin & get your services from there as well. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Whats holding you back? The sound of all those lambegs?

    “Sooner or later the orangeman will be beating down our door.”

    As for Orangeism, it runs way back in my family & let me be frank about it. It has been nothing but a noose around the necks of Irish protestants for generations. After the failure of 98 the orange card was played to “reunite the tribe” & unfortunately it was a success.

    While I admire my ancestors & respect my relatives who are still in, I cannot abide by it. It has NO place in my faith & certainly no place in my future. It is nothing short of a curse.

    Some folks from a unionist/protestant/loyalist background are willing to think outside the box, to leave the tribal mentality & dream of a new day for all of Ireland. Its encouragement they need not this “yours/ours” mentality & dreams of sending the planter packing.

    David

  • bertie

    “Time to ignore the attention seeking orangemen”

    If only you would. The Orangemen would love you to ignore them and then maybe they can just get on with it.

    “Some folks from a unionist/protestant/loyalist background are willing to think outside the box, to leave the tribal mentality & dream of a new day for all of Ireland”

    What has thinking outside the box got to do with being a nationalist or unionist?

  • Ulster McNulty

    Michael Shilliday

    ““Londonderry”, even if only used in formal correspondence, does demonstrate a mix of Gaelic and British cultures and some shared and rather interesting history. It is sad that some people can’t respect that and instead push for intolerant a mono-cultural dominance.”

    That statement sounds rather silly and in the interests of accuracy let me remind you that the letter “y” doesn’t exist in the Gaelic language. If you want the mix you claim to want you’d have to advocate a name change to Londainderry or Londondoire.

    By your reasoning if a re-naming to the anglicised version “Derry” creates an intolerant mono-cultural gaelic whatever, such a state already exists due to placenames like Antrim, Belfast, Coleraine, Dungannon, Enniskillen etc.

  • Secur O’Crat

    Perhaps a museum praising past gerrymanders of Doire and with quotes from the Orange Order, Paisley, the Bob Jones “University”, the Ku Klux Klan and other parts of the Protestant culture might be in order. I am sure local Catholic hostorians could add to the colection of what a wonderful world apartheid in Londonderry was.

  • Doctor Who

    secur O´Crat

    You really are the most narrow minded little nerd of the worst kind.

    Nationalists in general on this thread are accusing unionism of being uncompromising, although the irony is there if they read what they are typing.

    It is becoming increasingly difficult for Unionists to treat these threads seriously when all we are faced with are insulting comments from Nationalists.

    Even Kensei, who as a regular contributor to this site has labelled all Unionists as stupid. Although I disagree with most of what Kensei says, I would expect better from him.

    Now you can continue with this sort of rubbish, while Unionist contributors log off in their droves or we can all reconsider a new set of ground rules.

    Mick perhaps you can review the commenting policy…”man not ball” is not the major problem, it´s the ridiculous leap of imagination and hatred shown by many nationalist posters.

  • kensei

    “It is worth remembering when you next bang on about Democracy, that when they signed the good friday agreement, Sinn Fein where accepting that Northern Ireland is a political reality and entity. Only a clear majority of the people of NI can change it´s status.”

    Yes, they accepted that it is a reality and it’ll need majority of people to change.

    “Therfore the legitamacy is no longer questioned. So why then is being a Unionist stupid?”

    They didn’t accept it’s legitmacy, just the fact there is fuck all they can do about. Being a Unionist is stupid because you are handing over control of your destiny to another country. Every man, woman and child here could oppose a measure and England could still impose it. That’s just for a start. The lack of a written constitution, having a fucking monarchy… I could on and on why I think it’s bloody stupid. You have the right to your views. I have the right to think they are moronic, regardless of “legitimacy”.

    “I don´t say that aspiring to a United Ireland is stupid, I say that that will never happen, so it is best to work together for the better of Northern Ireland. Mutual respect and parity of esteem works both ways.”

    I respect you have different views. I think you are wrong, and I’ll oppose them and we’ll negotiate and work through it to get to some sort of workable solution. This is not incompatiable with mutal respect, in fact if I was to do otherwise I’d be patronising you. Republicans will work to make the Six Counties a better place becaause they are as Irish as anywhere else on the Island, they reprsent the people there and it would ultimately help transfer. But we’ll also try to weaken the border at every available oppurtunity. Where that is incompatiable with the above aim, we’ll make a judgement call about what is bestin the long run.

    We’re not going anywhere either, and we’re not going to stop working for a UI. Sorry.

  • bertie

    ” Being a Unionist is stupid because you are handing over control of your destiny to another country. Every man, woman and child here could oppose a measure and England could still impose it”

    Being a nationsalist by that token is stupid as you are handing control of your destiny to another country. Every man, woman and child here could oppose a measure and the ROI could still impose it.

    So independant NI is the only non stupid option and even within that, Tyrone sould opt for an independant Tyrone because every man woman and child there could impose it and the collective will of the other counties could still impose it.

  • lurker

    “it´s the ridiculous leap of imagination and hatred shown by many nationalist posters.”

    Hear, hear. The sectarian spite on this thread is beyond depressing.

  • kensei

    “Being a nationsalist by that token is stupid as you are handing control of your destiny to another country. Every man, woman and child here could oppose a measure and the ROI could still impose it.”

    Afraid not. If approximately 20% of the population opposed a change then it would be a political earthquake, particularly in the PR system of the Republic. As it is, our opposition or support could be wiped out by the margin of error in a UK poll.

    “So independant NI is the only non stupid option and even within that, Tyrone sould opt for an independant Tyrone because every man woman and child there could impose it and the collective will of the other counties could still impose it.”

    It doesn’t follow. The logical conclusion of that argument is anarchy, as the individual should be sole arbitor of everything. So there clearly needs to be a social contract that pools power. There is clearly a balance to be struck with regards size and distance from the governemnt to the people. So, ignoring all other factors for a second – independent NI workable but probably too small, Union massively, massively too big. United Ireland – comparable with lots of other successful smaller European nations.

  • kensei

    Also – Ireland is my country, so I’m not “handing it over” in that sense.

  • bertie

    The UK is my country so I’m not interested in handing a bit of it over to the ROI which isn’t.

  • lurker

    Does it really need pointed out that insisting a geographical entity must be a political entity is absurd?
    Catch a grip.

  • bertie

    Lurker

    The Iberian peninsular shoul be unified. What about mainland Europe/Asia

  • Ulster McNulty

    Lurker, Bertie

    “Does it really need pointed out that insisting a geographical entity must be a political entity is absurd?”

    Of course it doesn’t.

    There is no demand for the Iberian peninsula to be unified, and your reference to it reveals an obvious flaw in your argument. The flaw being that you fail to refer to the fact that most Irish people north and south, on the island of ireland, would prefer to see Ireland unified at some stage, unlike the iberians.

  • bertie

    UMcN

    There is a flaw in your interpretation of what you consider our arguement.

    I won’t answer for Lurker but you have conceded his and mine arguement by your “of course it does”.

    My arguement being that if being a geographical entity mean that it had to be a political one would mean that the Iberian peninsula would need to be one.

  • Ulster McNulty

    Bertie,

    “My arguement being that if being a geographical entity mean that it had to be a political one would mean that the Iberian peninsula would need to be one.”

    It’s a non-argument – you are the only one making it. Nobody else has argued that there should be a united Ireland because Ireland is a geographical entity. It would be ridiculous as you point out.

    By the way, I can’t think of ever hearing a nationalist arguing that there should be a united Ireland for geographic reasons.

    But I have heard unionists argue the contrary – that Northern Ireland forms a natural part of the UK because it is seperated from the rest of ireland by hills and the Black Pig’s Dyke and joined to mainland GB by the north channel.