I hope you make a fortune

Speculation is growing that Britain’s largest bank, HSBC, is to move its headquarters to Dublin in order to take advantage of the better business conditions in Ireland.

Chris Spooner, HSBC’s head of financial planning and tax, has pointed out that the bank could save as much as £400 million (€594million) by locating its global headquarters outside Britain.

The financial services sector is a hugely important sector in the Irish economy, contributing over 5% to Ireland’s GDP as well as directly employing in excess of 50,000 people. This week, the Government agreed to a major modernisation of legislation governing the regulation of the industry as part of its Better Regulation Agenda, to make the country even more “capital friendly”.

Currently, international bank assets in the IFSC are worth over 330 billion euros while net asset values of domiciled domestic funds are tipping 500 billion.

Earlier this year, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern attended the opening ceremony of HSBC’s fund administration and training centre in Sandyford, Dublin.

‘‘I hope you make a fortune here.” he told HSBC chairman Sir John Bond. Can’t get much more capital friendly than that.

To achieve this step up into the big league, Ireland needs university graduates from all over the globe, which is why Financial Services Ireland (FSI) have already called on the Government to adopt special migration policy measures for the financial sector to allow non-EU nationals to enter the Irish labour market.

“Financial sector employment has grown by over 50% over the last eight years and it is forecast that this figure will increase by a further 75% by 2020,” FSI Director, Aileen O’Donoghue, told her organisation’s annual conference last month.

“This is phenomenal growth by any standards and it will outpace other sectors of the economy. Overall Ireland will need approximately 700,000 people with third level qualifications in employment by 2010. Current estimates suggest that we will need around 300,000 new graduates over the next five years to reach that target. This is a massive challenge and it is important for the growth of the financial sector that we achieve it.”

This all seems to echo the view of John Herlihy, director of Google’s online sales and operations in Europe.

“Dublin has become a melting pot for young people where 160 languages are being spoken,” Herlihy said when announcing Google would hire 500 more employees in Dublin as it makes its Irish facility the largest outside the United States.

Like others, he said that Ireland’s low 12.5 percent corporate tax rate had helped Google decide to base its European operations there. But he said that the company had also found that people with desirable language skills were willing to relocate to the Irish capital.

Hard for locals to believe as they sit in their cars for hours on end but probably something to do with the fact that Ireland has been rated by the Economist as the country with the best quality of life on the planet.

  • 2050

    Total common sense for HSBC to make this common sense move. Microsoft & Google also. When are ordinary people in NI going to catch themselves on and see the union with Britain is holding us all back?.

    Union with the south is were we should all be going.

    What does it take to move beyond the pointless division. Who really gives a toss about another persons religion in say, ROI, Britain, USA, Australia, New Zealand , any international democracy for that matter, really. Pre condition after pre condition is just a distraction from the big picture.

  • Has the Economist ever sat on the M50 going to or coming from work ?

  • slug

    Ireland is also the country with the highest wealth per capita in the wirld. Well done, guys.

  • Smithsonian

    slug
    Why?

  • slug

    Why what? I was just congratulating the people of the Irish Republic on having more wealth per capita than anywhere else on planet earth.

  • CX

    Yeah, and also the worst human rights record/ disproportion of wealth in western Europe. And slug have you ever ventured outside the sleek, affluence of Dublin’s centre and seen the infastructure of the rest of the island?

    Don’t be so narrow minded.

  • slug

    CX I think you exaggerate.

    The Irish Republic is a fantastically wealthy country. The people there are have more wealth per person than any other country in the world; their average personal wealth is quite literally extraordinary. The Economist each year votes the people of the Irish republic as living in the best country on the planet. All that merits congratulation. See yesterdays FT for a detailed discussion of the huge wealth of the Irish Republic.

  • Kloot

    worst human rights record
    Just one link on this would be great CX if you have a minute to find one. Cheers

    disproportion of wealth
    Id agree with you to some extend on this. However, there is not much that can be done about it. You cant just give people wealth. Someone who was poor before the celtic tiger was unlikely to become wealthy because of the celtic tiger. The celtic tiger is solidly founded on capitalism, NOT socialism. There are plenty of jobs around for people should they want them. we have the 2nd highest minimum wage in the EU. Thats not much help for single moms, and the elderly, but give things time. Its been a short trip from bust to where we are now and these things dont change overnight.

    And slug have you ever ventured outside the sleek, affluence of Dublin’s centre and seen the infastructure of the rest of the island?

    Again, id agee with you to a certain extent, but again this is changing. The rail network is being upgraded with new trains already purchased and more on the way. There is a national development plan for roads, hospitals and schools. Again, all this could be done quicker, and cheaper, but slowly but surely its getting there.

    Don’t be so narrow minded

    I think yu will find that its yourself that is being so narrow minded in that you cannot give credit where credit is due.

    There is a lot wrong with the celtic tiger ROI, but in the most, things are much better then what they used to be. We need more schools and more hospitals, more child minding services, and more support services in general, but again, I point back to the fact that its onl 10 years back that the ROI was bust.

  • CX

    Kloot, slug I entirely agree with you that the Republic’s turnaround has been astounding…but i still believe that just stating a country’s wealth as a factor of their success is narrow minded. In terms of HR, to simply work in the civil service requires a full knowledge of the Irish language. Hence, in Donegal, with a higher proportion of Protestants, less than 1% of Protestants work in the public service and 9% in the country as a whole.

    Now im sure you two can spin this to your own ends dismissing it not as discrimination but rather as a furthering of your culture but nonetheless people who are perfectly capable of performing these jobs are being ousted by the GOVERNMENT and in full view of the public.

    And yes, the elderly, the young graduates who can’t afford a one bedroom hovel even 10 miles outside Dublin can take solice in the fact that money is flowing in the south.
    That’s what those pensioners will be thinking if they stump up enough cash for their doctors bill this winter.

    Need i say more?

  • smcgiff

    ‘That’s what those pensioners will be thinking if they stump up enough cash for their doctors bill this winter.’

    You really need to do more research before making through away comments.

    However, I agree whole heartedly with your position re the Irish language status. I look forward to the day when Northerners can join the push to give monoglots equal status

  • smcgiff

    throw away even!

  • miss fitz

    I’m fascinated with the comment on human rights. CX, what kind of basis do you have for this statement? A very cursory search provides absolutely no evidence for what you say among any of the human rights watch organisations that exist.

    A little more on this please.

  • fionn

    CX

    “Hence, in Donegal, with a higher proportion of Protestants, less than 1% of Protestants work in the public service and 9% in the country as a whole.”

    does this mean protestants are incapable of learning Irish? If they went through the education system in the republic, they learnt Irish.

    Irish is still the offical language of our country -however unrealistic that may be-, would a civil servant in the UK be expected to have a working knowledge of English?

  • “would a civil servant in the UK be expected to have a working knowledge of English?”

    Apples and oranges.

  • Matt

    err if protestants in donegal want public service jobs then they should learn irish…just like everyone else…kinda like france maybe or germany…by the way should immigrants learn english?

  • Smithsonian

    slug
    How did they achieve it? What is their secret?

  • Kloot

    In terms of HR, to simply work in the civil service requires a full knowledge of the Irish language.

    Id have zero problem with dropping this requirement. Its an extremely short sighted requirement. It does mean that those with qualifications suitable for jobs are descriminated. It will go im sure when they find it too hard to get proper staff.

    But why pick the civil service. I really couldnt give a fiddlers about the public sector in the ROI. Its outdated, costs too much and is badly run.

    That’s what those pensioners will be thinking if they stump up enough cash for their doctors bill this winter.

    Pensioners have medical cards. No doctors bills.

    but i still believe that just stating a country’s wealth as a factor of their success is narrow minded

    I completely agree with you now. The wealth in the ROI has not come without a price. If you cant afford to buy a home or bring up a family comfortably then something is obviously wrong. A balance has yet to be achieved.

  • Shuggie McSporran

    CX

    “…to simply work in the civil service requires a full knowledge of the Irish language. Hence, in Donegal, with a higher proportion of Protestants, less than 1% of Protestants work in the public service and 9% in the country as a whole.”

    If it’s true that the civil service requires a “full working knowledge” of Irish, which I doubt entirely, how would it discriminate against Protestants when they learn Irish at school like everybody else?

    Religion has no effect on a person’s ability to speak or learn a language.

    (am I mistaken on the assumption that protestant children are taught Irish at schools).

  • miss fitz

    CX

    I have looked at the website of teh Irish Civil Service as I know very little about it as an employer. http://www.publicjobs.ie/en/advice/

    From what I can see, you are completely incorrect about the requirement of the Irish language for employment in all sections of the Irish CS. Indeed, being an Irish national is only required for some jobs, particularly in the diplomatic service.

    Are you just winding this up, or can you substantiate anything you have said?

  • James

    CX,
    “In terms of HR, to simply work in the civil service requires a full knowledge of the Irish language. Hence, in Donegal, with a higher proportion of Protestants, less than 1% of Protestants work in the public service and 9% in the country as a whole.”

    completely incorrect. I’ve worked in the civil service as recently as this summer and didn’t have any requirement to learn or use Irish, much less full knowledge of it.

    and as for the little protestant victimisation, could you provide us with some comparisons as to the percentage of catholics living in Donegal involved with the civil service, and indeed, the percentage of catholics or other religions in the republic involved with the civil service?
    an official figure would be prefered instead of pulling out random figures.

    “And yes, the elderly, the young graduates who can’t afford a one bedroom hovel even 10 miles outside Dublin can take solice in the fact that money is flowing in the south. ”

    really? i’m currently a student in university in Dublin and live in the city, and i can not only fit in college work, but also a part-time job, and still easily afford to pay for my spacious room in a 3-bed apartment, and have plenty left over each week.
    perhaps those on a meager public sector wage in the 6 counties wouldn’t be able to afford a 1 bedroom hovel. thankfully we have a flourishing economy down here.

    i assume a validation of your human rights record comment is forthcoming?

  • CX

    Well it seems that many of you republicans have been quick to play down on the human rights issue…not by defending your own country interestingly enough…but by claiming it jst isn’t true. Check the International League of Human Rights and see if there is a country in western Europe (and a fair portion of Eastern Europe) that has a worse record.

    *No free healthcare
    *No redistribution of rich to poor (your 12.5% corp tax just makes those rich businessmen richer)
    * Low alcohol duty

    Those are just the top three reasons.
    Oh and miss fitz…it’s worth THOROUGHALLY checking the website that you reference your argument from 😉
    http://www.pobail.ie/en/IrishLanguage/OfficialLanguagesAct2003/

    And James..congratulations…but am i correct in saying that the Irish government pays all of your tuition fees as well as making a contribution towards your lifestyle? With a part time job included…im sure your truly experiencing all the south has to offer.

    But heaven forbid, one day you’re going to have to graduate.

    And then you’ll pay 419,809 euro. Not for the spacious 3 bedroom flat your in now…but for the small 2 bedroom house on the commuter belt in Dublin. Fact*

    So enjoy it while you can my friend…because although in theory a high tide lifts all ships…in practice it doesn’t.

    A wealthy country the ROI is….as long as your in the correct demographic.

    *http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/irelandhouseprices.htm

  • miss fitz

    CX
    I am beginning to suspect you are a troll.

    Look, I read all of this before I posted my earlier thread and NOWHERE can I see a stipluation that all Civil Servants speak Irish.

    On the site of the ILHR, the only reference to Ireland I could find was one to the Bloody Sunday inquiry.

    I think we are reaching the ‘put up or shut up’ stage here

  • Doctor Who

    So there is a United Ireland, the NI civil service now submerged with that of the rest of Ireland…

    Are we to surmise that anyone from the North wanting to work in public sector jobs in this new ireland will have to have a working knowlege of Gaelic. .Even though the language of the country is English.

    Hmmmm the image of this new utopia just gets better and better.

    And now Britains biggest bank the “HONG KONG AND SHANGHAI BANKING CORPORATION” are now coming to Dublin, well it wasn´t so long ago you guys would of seen that as a British imperial takeover.

  • miss fitz

    Dr WHo

    Are you suggesting that the current position is that civil servants in the Republic of Ireland are required to speak Irish?

    I am not taking a stand on this as I have no direct knowledge, but no one has been able to provide any evidence.

    Non Irish nationals are entitled to apply to the CS in the ROI, so the argument is unlikely to stand

  • slug

    As a shareholder in HSBC I want them to maximize profit. The ROI is a capitalist utopia with its low profit tax. That means more for British shareholders like me!

  • dpef

    In 1974 the requirement that Irish be passed in order to obtain a Leaving Certificate was removed and the requirement to have knowledge of Irish to join the Civil Service was removed. Even the requirement to have passed Irish at Leaving Cert level was dropped for Garda entrants in 2005.

    So these arguments, unless you are using a time machine, are utterly ridiculous.

    Even a brief google will confirm all of the above, rather than allowing debates to be run on misinformed prejudice and hot air.

  • miss fitz

    Thank you dpef, that is the information I was turning up but glad you confirmed it. It demolishes all the arguments that CX has been making. I applied to the CS in 1976 and there was no condition for Irish then, but I wasnt sure what the position was today.

  • slug

    Great to hear they have dropped Irish from the top levels of the civil service.

  • Doctor Who

    Miss Fitz

    I have just received an email from my mate who works in a public sector job in Dublin.

    He says school leavers joining the Civil Service are required to have passed the leaving certificate, including Galelic.

    As far foreign nationals working for them he dosn´t know.

    Can anyone provide any links, my searhes have proved fruitless.

  • Doctor Who

    Dpef

    Provide the links, do have some info but it contradicts what your saying.

    In fact the guidelines seem to be as ambiguous as FIFA´s.

  • Kloot

    Doc,

    Been looking myself.

    NI -ROI Cross Border info
    Wiki Link

    Hope these help

  • Shuggie McSporran

    dpef

    “So these arguments, unless you are using a time machine, are utterly ridiculous.”

    There is some fun to be had using time machine arguments.

    Like – when will the Northern Ireland Civil Service fall into line with the civil service in the rest of the UK and stop barring applications from people simply because they are from RoI. When will this practise stop – the 1990’s or 80’s maybe?

    Or – when will protestants allow papists in Donegal to own a horse, gelding or mare of five pounds value or over?

  • Kloot

    CX, your arguments just arent backed up by fact. You seem to be out of your dept here, misinformed of the reality of things in the ROI.

    Do you acknowledge the fact that Irish is NOT a requirement for the Irish civil service?
    NI -ROI Cross Border info
    Wiki Link

    *No free healthcare
    When was free health care a human right ? Do you know what a medical card is ? Check it out and then get back to us
    Citizens Information

    *No redistribution of rich to poor (your 12.5% corp tax just makes those rich businessmen richer)

    Redistribution of wealth ? What are you suggesting here. The state reclaims property off rich people and hands it too the poor. Something like that ?

    How are the poor to be given ‘wealth’. I just dont understand that concept. Everyone is given the oppertunity to achive their own wealth. A good education system. Free 2nd/3rd level education, Irish and EU education grants. Low entry level tax, 2nd highest minimum wage in the EU.

    I really dont understand the point your tryng to make. Are you looking for some socialist republic or something.

    * Low alcohol duty

    Say what now!!!! are you joking here or what. I pay about 4.40 to 5.00 Euro for a pint when I got out at night, in the UK id be paying 2.20 sterling. A litre bottle of Jameson in ireland costs 39 euro, the same bottle in spain 13 euro. We have the highest duty on wine in the EU. Where are you getting your info from.

    We also have high taxes in cigarettes and we were the first country in the EU, if not the world to ban smoking in public places.

    I never understood Irish peoples facination with owning property. Again, its not a human right

  • Shuggie McSporran

    More on topic – HSBC moved from Hong Kong along with the British withdrawel in 1997. I wouldn’t be surprised by a move back there some time in the future.

  • Kloot

    In fact only recently I had to deal with the dept. of revenue with regards to some back tax owed. The first person I dealt with was spanish and the second canadian.

    Im not aware of Irish on either of those 2 nations education system

    Didnt the ROI also just very recently top the league of nations with a free press. Another nail in the coffin of the argument that the ROI has a bad human rights record

  • Kloot

    Business is about making money… companies will always go where its cheaper. If the wage bills in the ROI become too high, because of our very high minimum wage, then these companies will eventually move elsewhere.

    It makes a lot of sense that HSBC would move to Dublin. Its within a stones throw of the UK. In the digital age, most of their key staff could reside in the UK, while on the books, the headquarters was in the ROI

  • Kloot

    As far foreign nationals working for them he dosn´t know.

    Typical civil service..never have the info you need 🙂

  • dpef

    Dr Who,

    Kloot provides it in its simplest on his first link:

    http://www.eures-crossborder.org/xhtml/faqs.html

    Do I require the Irish Language to apply for a post in the Irish Civil Service?

    No, you must be a citizen of a European Union member state and there is no specific requirement for the Irish language.

    http://www.eures-crossborder.org/xhtml/aboutpartners.html

    What is the EURES Cross-border Partnership?
    The EURES (EURopean Employment Services) Cross-border Partnership has been established to make things easier for those who wish to commute daily or weekly across the border in order to earn a living. It does this by attempting to overcome at least some of the obstacles which people face.

    In particular it addresses information gaps. For example, jobseekers not knowing what employment and training opportunities exist on the other side of the border, how the taxation system works or how their social security entitlements might be affected by accepting a job.

    The Partnership also aims to assist employers by providing them with access to a larger pool of labour i.e. jobseekers living on the other side of the border. Advice is available to employers on a range of cross-border recruitment issues.

    Who are the Partners?
    There are seven organisations, from both sides of the border, involved in the Partnership.

    These are (in alphabetical order):

    An Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS)
    Confederation of British Industry (CBI)
    Department for Employment and Learning (DEL)
    Dundalk Chamber of Commerce
    Irish Business and Employers Confederation (IBEC)
    Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU)
    Londonderry Chamber of Commerce

    I suggest you take very little notice of your ‘mate’. He clearly doesn’t have a clue.

  • miss fitz

    Actually, dpef, if you go back to the post where I linked to the actual CS itself you will see that there is no restriction on people from outside the EU. You need proof of a work permit or be able to fit into some of the other permitted categories.

    I think the mate who e-mailed from Dublin may have som eof his facts crossed. If I recall, you used to have to pass Irish to have passed the Leaving Certificate, but I understand that is no longer the case. Ergo, if you required a Leaving Cert for a CS job it implied you needed to pass Irish, but that is no longer the case.

    If you dont have a Leaving Certificate, you are judged by an equivalency in what ever second level certificate you provide.

  • dpef

    Additionally, a small % increase in points scoring should be applied for candidates with proficiency in both Official Languages. This has been ignored in some departments and is subject to legal challenges over promotions denied that should have been granted.

  • Doctor Who

    Well he has been working there for quite some time and shows signs of wilting.

    And yes, while he won´t thank me for saying it he hasn´t a clue.

    Do you not think however that the HSBC move to Dublin says more about the profit ambitions of the bank than it does about the ROI economy.

    Kloot I think you knocked it on the head.

  • mcgrath

    Dr Who:

    “Do you not think however that the HSBC move to Dublin says more about the profit ambitions of the bank than it does about the ROI economy.”

    Well of course it does, they are capitalists (Yawn….Dr Who fails basic economics). HSBC are not hung up about whose eyes seem closer together than others, they are only concerned about who can get the job done, an element seriously lacking in the wider NI economy.

  • Yokel

    Children. They locate in London’s financial quarter for simple logical reasons and they will continue to do so.

    1. Proximity to the action
    2. They can get a selection of skilled staff in London better than anywhere else
    3. Most of their senior people working out of HQ like living in the UK.

    They won’t be going to Dublin, end of but sure no one look at any of these reasons.

  • Greenflag

    Kloot,

    ‘I never understood Irish peoples facination with owning property. Again, its not a human right ‘

    It’s ‘genetic ‘ derived from a history of mass evictions in the 19th century -parasitic landlordism of a type that was only possible in the congested districts of Southern and Western Ireland .

    On the few occasions that I’ve had to pay rent I always ‘resented ‘ it . I accept that people in France , Germany and other european countries have a different attitude but then they also have a different history .

    Home ownership rates in the Irish Republic as a percentage of the population are the highest in the world some 85% IIRC. Given recent price increases in housing the younger generation are finding it increasingly difficult to buy their first home. I expect Brian Cowen will try to address this problem in his upcoming Budget .

    For people from Northern Ireland the debate on Irish in the Republic’s Civil Service in a way reflects the increasing differences , perceptions and solutions on both sides . The huge overdependence on the public sector in Northern Ireland is behind these differences. Probably half of Northern Ireland’s Civil Service needs to be ‘downsized’ or outsourced to the private sector . But with only a tiny private sector to outsource to and a low rate of new business start ups there is nowhere for the overstaffed Northern Ireland Civil Service to go to except ? The British Civil Service ? There they will have to compete with other British citizens on equal terms and heres the good news – Irish will not be required not even basic Irish .

    With a huge increase in the number of people in Ireland from non Irish backgrounds I’m sure this will lead to reforms in the Irish requirement for public sector jobs particularly for those departments outside the Gaeltacht and Education

  • miss fitz

    Greenflag

    Are you saying the Irish is a requirement at all levels and for all jobs, industrial and non-industrial in the ROI Civil Service?

    And if so, can you tell us where that leaves the non nationals who are entitled to apply for jobs?

  • Greenflag

    Kloot,

    ‘Again, its not a human right ‘(owning property)

    Not for hunter gather societies it was’nt . Since man ‘settled down’ and developed agriculture , cities , civilisations ‘property owning ‘ has become part of the human condition . Those ‘societies ‘ which tried to abolish ‘property owning ‘ the former Communist States etc have seen the economic and social cosequences of their ideological misread of human nature .

    Buy hey if you believe that hunter gathering as a way of life is the way to go -good luck to you .

    For people to survive in such a society (hunter gathering) you need at least 10 square miles of land per person, this is one reason these societies were low on numbers . All Ireland has a current population density of 187 people per square mile . If we returned to hunter gathering the island’s population could support about 3,200 people and not 6,000,000 . You can do the numbers for the USA , China ,UK yourself .

    There is no going back and anyway the homicide rate for hunter gatherer societies was higher than for present day Detroit and the quality of dental and health care on a par with the quality of their ‘university education’ 🙂

  • Greenflag

    Miss Fitz ,

    To be honest I’m not absolutely sure of the present situation . When I worked in the ESB you had to have at least a pass in Irish at Leaving Cert level . I don’t ever remember using Irish in my work . I was there for a year when I realised that the public sector was not for me 🙂 And I haven’t regretted it 🙂

    I would imagine that exceptions would be made on a practical basis for non nationals . Only common sense .

    If you really want to know the current situation contact the Civil Service directly . Remember old Chinese saying .One man tells a lie (CX ?) and thousands (Dr Who’s? ) repeat it as the truth 🙁

    Anyway the people who apply to HSBC won’t be worried about language requirements although Cantonese and or Mandarin could be useful .

  • Doctor Who

    McGrath

    Don´t be such a wab. What I of course was implying was that HSBC was moving to Dublin for their own financial benefit, not because the financial climate in ROI was so lucrative.

    The implication from some is they are doing this as the financial climate is in ROI is superior to that of the UK.

    There is a difference and for that you fail basic common sense.

  • Kloot

    The implication from some is they are doing this as the financial climate is in ROI is superior to that of the UK.

    Both the UK and Irish economies are both strong. At the moment. I mean, HSBC werent thinking of moving because the UK economy was heading down the drain. Its more of a case that the ROI economy has better enticements then the UK economy for what they are looking for. ie low corporation tax.

  • oh dear

    Did anyone watch the pope’s children ?

    “Total common sense for HSBC to make this common sense move. Microsoft & Google also. When are ordinary people in NI going to catch themselves on and see the union with Britain is holding us all back?.”

    Will it be “common sense” 2050 when Microsoft , Dell, HP, google et al move to India or China.

    Ireland is doing remarkably well, but personally i think this will unfortunately short lived. No country has ever borrowed as much as ireland has in the last 10 years, people are funding lavish lifestyles on the back of cheap german credit. 1 in 6 houses are built by investors !!!! :O

    Look ahead and remember for these giant american inc’s there is no sympathy for ireland, the bottom line is profit – as simple as that.

    And the most horrific fact on the “popes children” was that Microsoft, HP and DELL account for *20%* of irelands GDP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!. People laugh, but it has happened economies the world over, Ireland could hit the deck in a big way. (just my personal opinion)

    http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P62115.asp

  • McGrath

    Dr Who:

    “Don´t be such a wab. What I of course was implying was that HSBC was moving to Dublin for their own financial benefit, not because the financial climate in ROI was so lucrative.

    The implication from some is they are doing this as the financial climate is in ROI is superior to that of the UK.”

    Wab? Your first comment confirms the opposite of what you are arguing. You agree that HSBC are moving because of their own financial benefit.

    That benefit only exists because the ROI economy offers something better (more lucrative) to them than the UK.

    What are you going to imply next?

  • Greenflag

    Oh Dear,

    Corporate Investor ,

    ‘So we would like to invest in state of the art plant just outside Belfast It will be a 1 billion dollar investment will employ 500 people and generate an extra 100 million of spin off domestic spending for the local economy .

    Oh Dear (NIDB)

    ‘Ah no thanks . – we might get too used to those higher earnings and anyway youse will just piss off to China or India when youse can

    Enough said >

    ”there is no sympathy for Ireland,’

    Brilliant dededuction . I think you’ll find that

    a) most people don’t expect any and

    b) We had so much caring sympathy from HMG 1800 through 1922 that two million of our people could’nt take it any more . One million left the country and another million died of starvation .

    As for hitting the deck ? Most of Irelandc was never off the deck as long as Westminster ruled this country . It’s ironic that the part of Ireland that’s still on the deck is still ruled by Westminster ?

    There is no easy way for any country to build up it’s capital be it industrial , infrastructural , human or finacial . A small country like Ireland without any major natural resources -no oil -minerals etc has to do it it’s own way . To the extent we have eventually succeeded is due to many factors too long to list here .

    The outlook for the next couple of years is positive

  • Doctor Who

    McGrath

    1. The HONG KONG AND SHANGHAI BANKING CORPORATION (HSBC), have only been based in the UK since 1997 when Britains lease of Hong Kong ended…It was always going to be a temporary arrangement.

    2. Now that they are in fact the biggest UK bank with the most investors, their share price is high, hence to keep it that way it makes good sense to move to a ready made workforce on your doorstep and at the same time enjoy huge tax saving incentives. This keeps the shareholders happy as the share price can only go up.

    3. Now can you see the differnce….it´s only strange you lot are not complaining about “new age British financial imperialism”. But give it time.

    4. And yes, you are a Wab.

  • McGrath

    Dr Who:

    4. And yes, you are a Wab

    It is unfortunate that you have been consumed by bitterness, it is apparent that it affects even the simple choices that you, sir, have to make in life. I pity you.

  • Oh Dear

    Greenflag, you obviously have a *very* basic grasp of ecenomics imho. Ill try to keep it simple

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4505842.stm

    “Microsoft is keen to expand its operations in India, a country where well-trained workers are available at a fraction of what they cost in the West.” sounds pretty much why they came to ireland, but as we know the cheap labour has dissapeared.

    Irish labor costs, which back in the mid-1990s were among the lowest in the EU, are now among the highest. there is Pressure from other EU countries such as germany (afaik >40% corp tax) to level the playing field (get irish ct increased), and new member states are also expected to replicate irelands low corp tax. Not to mention demographics, and a massive property bubble. intersting times lie ahead.

    You little role play was as simple as your grasp of the world around you tbh. :S

  • Doctor Who

    McGrath

    “It is unfortunate that you have been consumed by bitterness, it is apparent that it affects even the simple choices that you, sir, have to make in life. I pity you. ”

    LOL LOL bit dramatic mate, try not to be so sensitive.

  • George

    Oh Dear,
    I fear you are simplifying matters. Ireland is competing with India and China for some things but not everything.

    It can do quite nicely thank you very much as the European business headquarters location of choice for the world’s companies, for example.

    It is an English speaking, liberal and flexible country in a eurozone of hundreds of millions of customers.

    Ireland is a small country, it doesn’t need huge manufacturing facilities going into the future.

    The manufacturing got the Irish economy off the floor. Now the country has to move up the value chain.

    It may succeed, it may fail but it is certainly going to give it a go.

    Experian, the credit analysis business, moved its business headquarters to Dublin in recent months.

    If HSBC comes and a few more than another cluster could be on its way. Who knows, Dublin could become a significant (not major) financial centre by 2015. Why not?

    A foundation on which to build just like previously Intel and Microsoft led to Google, Amazon etc. deciding to put their European headquarters in Ireland.

    As for other European countries replicating Ireland’s methods, they already are. Estonia has a zero per cent corporate tax rate, I believe.

    Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Good luck to them, I hope they do well.

    On the productivity front, the housing bubble and the rest we have heard from the doomsayers of the last nine years, may I quote Damien Kiberd in the Sunday Times last weekend:

    “The real Irish economy was robust enough to cope with a trebling of oil prices between 2002 and 2004, along with a 50% appreciation in the value of the euro against the dollar.

    “So there is no reason why we should be fazed now by a euro-dollar appreciation of 11% in 2006 accompanied by a decline of perhaps one-sixth in global energy prices Ireland.”

    You could be right but the Daily Telegraph has been predicting the Irish economy crash since 1996, the Economist has been predicting it since 1999 and I think David McWilliams started in 2002.

    If you are wrong, in three years Ireland might have a booming financial services sector.

    Worth a try to try land HSBC don’t you think? Success means another string to the economic bow.

  • Greenflag

    Oh Dear ,

    ‘I’ll try to keep it simple ‘

    You succeeded at least in that 🙂 . The real world is howeveer somewhat more complex than your BBC link. Irish companies such as Kerrygold /CRH have already invested in China . Microsoft is way behind investing in India – Other USA multinationals have been in India for a decade or more .

    Bertie and his economic advisors/trade missions have already been to both China and India laying the basis for future trade with these countries . The newly rich hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians will be a huge growing market for Irish exports in the future.
    What percentage of the increasing Asian markets does Ireland need to continue it’s self sustaining growth ? Not a lot .

    In 1950 Asian incomes were 10% of the USA’s . By 2000 they were more than 25% and rising . Eventually wage levels in these countries will rise to western levels .With 60% of the world’s population Asia accounts for more than 35% of world output and almost 50% of economic growth since 2000 . It’s share of global trade has increased from 11% to 26% between 1960 and 2000. China is already the world’s 4th largest economy and more important to the whole world as a growth engine than the whole of Europe .

    Chinese ‘imports’ will overtake those of Europe by 2010 . I expect Ireland as a small open economy will be well placed to take advantage . India will be similar ‘string’ to the bow as George puts it.

    I expect a property bubble burst probably in the second half of next year but it will be just a blip on the overall trend for the Irish economy which remains positive .

    I respect the Economists ‘numbers’ generally but not always their interpretation . Likewise McWilliams and Kiberd . Another ‘respected ‘ Irish financial journalist one Colm Rapple wrote a short book in the early 1980’s on ‘Living with permanent Recession’ in which he suggested for some that a return to self sufficientcy holdings of a couple of acres and vegetable garden might be the way forward .

    So don’t worry Oh Dear -If you can still use a spade and a hoe you’ll do fine .

    ‘You little role play was as simple as your grasp of the world around you ‘

    I made it ‘simple’ so that you would understand it 🙂 I’ve worked on four continents – in over a dozen countries from highly developed -developing to third world with every race and religion. My ‘grasp’ of the world is not from an academic viewpoint but from a practical perspective.

    Meanwhile we in the Republic await Mr Cowan’s Budget 🙂 and good people of Northern Ireland have Gordon’s ‘gift’ to look forward to not to mention the Gerry & Ian pantomime .

    Is’nt life wonderful 🙂

  • Whaaaa ?

    Greenflag

    “The newly rich hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians will be a huge growing market for Irish exports in the future. ”

    Errr…um… what exactly pray tell will the irish be able to produce and ship to china and still make a profit, given the high irish wages and ever increasing energy costs ?

    Or do you mean when ireland will be back to the spade and hoe (like most of china now) while chinese will be driving BMW’s own houses abroad etc (like ireland now) ????

    And will all those chinese will be lamenting the eradication of their manufacturing base cos of cheap irish labour ?,

    Yung Hi

    “look i got these shoes for $0.40 – top drawer boss”

    Feung Singh

    “Ahhhh – everything is made in ireland now, cheap labour, how are we supposed to compete”

    PS what and why have kerrygold invested in china ???

  • George

    Whaaaa ?,
    Kerry Group (not Kerrygold Greenflag) employ over 20,000 people and have annual sales of over €4 billion.

    Nearly half of that is in Europe, 27% in the Americas and 6% in the Asia/Pacific markets.

    Obviously, they are looking to expand on that 6% as well as cutting manufacturing costs by having a presence in China. The 20 million investment is part of that process.

    As for what Ireland can export to China, it won’t be T-shirts or shoes, that’s for sure.

    More likely to be software, telecommunications, aviation services, electronics and engineering. Food, international consultancy and services in areas like training and international finance are also growth areas.

  • Greenflag

    George, thanks for answering yer man and our correction :

    BTW Cement Roadstone Holdings should also do very well in China . IIRC they have set up/purchased a plant in Harbin .

    Lot’s of new ‘names ‘ cropping up Whaaaaa?

    Oh Dear whatever next 🙂 ?