Those pesky victims

The SDLP have a confused idea of who is a victim. Clearly that hasn’t stopped as Alban Maginness is still saying mean things about, by the definition of SDLP policy, a large victims group – the UDA.

  • rapunsel

    Michael

    You are confusing me and clearly are confused yourself. Can someone not criticise the UDA whilst still believing that some of their members may be victims? Are all victims of the conflict immune form any criticism whatsoever? Do you not believe that it is possible to be both a victim and a perprerator? I am not a big fan of Alban Maginness nor a member or generally a supporter of the SDLP but what exactly is wrong with what he is saying here. Do you not support UDA disarmament?

  • bertie

    rapunsel

    You’re not the only one who is confused.

    Anyone who is murdered is a victim, just not necessarily an innocent victim.

    Alban Maginnis can’t critise these hoods too much as far as I am concerned.

  • Michael Shilliday

    Frankly no – victim makers are not victims. Either the UDA are scum or they are victims, the SDLP need to choose one and stick with it.

  • rapunsel

    So Michael– there are and have not been any unpleasant victims? Just what is your point here.

    The UDA have perpetrated some horrific deeds and created many victims , some of their own members have been killed and injured by the state , by the UDA , but republican paramilitaries and others. These people are victims even if they have victimised to deny this gets us nowhere. Again just because someone is or was a victim does not mean that they or any organisation they were a member of can be criticised. Does collusion of the RUC and army etc with loyalist paramilitaries mean that there are no RUC victims?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Alban Maginnis can’t critise these hoods too much as far as I am concerned.

    Posted by bertie on Nov 30, 2006 @ 10:41 PM

    A “hood” is a joyrider or an idiot involved in vandalism and other forms of anti-social behaviour detrimental to their coummunities – the UDA are often asked by members of communities affected to intervene and stop these incidents occuring. I will be the first to admit that in the past the steps were as follows;

    1. The perpatrator(s) is/are given a warning to halt their anti-social behaviour;
    2. If this warning is not heeded they will be given a beating, a so-called “punishment beating”;
    3. If the perpatrator(s) still persist after twice being warned that this behaviour cannot and will not be tolerated by communities who want to live in peace without the scourge of hoods, they will be shot in the back of the legs;
    4. If the UDA have to send out a team again to deal with the individual(s) involved they will be “kneecapped” – shot in the kneecaps, which can result in the perpatrator walking with a limp for the rest of his life as they will most likely need reconstructive surgery to repair the damaged kneecap.

    These 4 steps proved very effective in dealing with anti-social behaviour in loyalist areas. Republicans followed similar procedures, but as we can see in areas like Poleglass and Twinbrook off the Stewartstown Road, the Hood capital of Ulster, they have not been as effective in combating anti-social behaviour.

    There have been seismic shifts in UDA thinking in the past few years though. Hoods that come to the attention of the Association will no longer be dealt with by physical violence, but will instead be ordered to carry out community service for the area they terrorised. This usually involves painting over or removing graffiti, picking up empty beer tins/spirit bottles from childrens’ play areas or helping elderly people in the area with cutting their grass/hedges or giving a lick of paint to their gates even.

    We need to encourage these changes, not jump on the anti-loyalist bandwagon and criticize the UDA, when out of all the paramilitary organisations they have shown the most willingness to change and compromise, and have been engaged in a period of consultation with their volunteers at grassroots level to decide where the UDA and their youth wing, the UYM, go from here. The UFF, the military wing of the UDA, have adhered to their ceasefire and are no longer active in any way, shape or form, but the UDA are consulting to find out where the Association as a whole, with their membership of some 40,OOO men and women, fit into a new, peaceful and prosperous Ulster…

  • bertie

    CL

    “We need to encourage these changes, not jump on the anti-loyalist bandwagon and criticize the UDA,”

    No we need to meak it clear that this group of low lifes are criminals.

    “when out of all the paramilitary organisations they have shown the most willingness to change and compromise”

    Even if that were true, big ruddy deal. The only thing I want to hear from or about them is that they are in prison, or that they HAVE disbanded (not considering it if we give them enoguh money)

    “and have been engaged in a period of consultation with their volunteers at grassroots level to decide where the UDA and their youth wing, the UYM, go from here.”

    They should be told to go to hell

  • rapunsel

    By what right can the UDA order anyone to carry out Community Service? Presumably it’s under pain of a beating or worse. Concerned Loyalist– if you are the same person who posted last week about Stone’s heroic actions at Stormont– then I’d be surprised if ou even take yourself seriously nevermind expecting anyone else to!

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Michael Stone apparently attempted to wipe out the Provie leadership. The credibility of his actions and whether, at the age of 51, he should have undertaken such a high-risk operation, are questions only he can answer.
    Personally, I believe it was a publicity stunt to distract public attention from what was going on inside Stormont. I would never criticize Michael as he put his life on the line in defence of his native land on many occasions, but I do question the authenticity of his claim that he was attempting to sanction Adams and McGuinness – the man is erudite and pragmatic and would realise himself that it would be nigh on impossible to overpower security, run up the steps, whack the Provos, then make his getaway…Milltown 88 was courageous, Stormont 06 was a step too far.

  • bertie

    “I would never criticize Michael as he put his life on the line in defence of his native land on many occasions”

    Totally and absolutely sickening!

    I’m sure many have said similar things of eveil me througout the centuries

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Rapunsel: “These people are victims even if they have victimised to deny this gets us nowhere. Again just because someone is or was a victim does not mean that they or any organisation they were a member of can be criticised. Does collusion of the RUC and army etc with loyalist paramilitaries mean that there are no RUC victims? ”

    Members of the UDA are not victims, by definition — they knew what they were getting into and if they didn’t want it, they should not have signed up, as bad things happen in that “line of work.” That goes for any one of the other “alphabet soup” groups out there.

    CL: “There have been seismic shifts in UDA thinking in the past few years though.”

    Yeah — now, rather than shaking down store owners, they’re looking to shake down the government… leastwise when their more senile exponents and trying for one last hurrah…

  • bertie

    “Members of the UDA are not victims”

    If someone is murdered thay are a victim. They may not be an innocent victim but they are a victim. If someone is in a pub drinking and it is bombed and they are killed, then they are victims.

    If they are killed in the middle of trying to jill someone else then that is unlikley to be murder and so they would not be victims.

  • marty

    with their membership of some 40,OOO men and women,

    40,000? I’d clean your keyboard out CL the 0 button appears to be stuck

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “If someone is murdered thay are a victim. They may not be an innocent victim but they are a victim. If someone is in a pub drinking and it is bombed and they are killed, then they are victims. ”

    Not at all — terrorism and gangsterism is something of a contact sport — you assume the risks when you enter the field of play, bertie. If they weren’t up to it, they shouldn’t have joined up.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    40,000? I’d clean your keyboard out CL the 0 button appears to be stuck

    Posted by marty on Dec 06, 2006 @ 09:25 PM

    I think I’d have a better idea than you. For example : 1) at least 800 members turn up to Rathcoole on Remembrance Sundays and that’s only one Battalion of the South-East Antrim Brigade.
    2) There are seven Battalions in the North Antrim/Londonderry Brigade. If each of those Battalions had even 3 Companies, like Coleraine, that would amount to approximately 300 men per battalion and 2,100 men in the Brigade. The 4 Belfast Brigades and South-East Antrim may not be as big geographically, but they are bigger in membership as the Troubles concentrated more heavily on Belfast than any other town or city…do you see where I’m coming from? ‘A’ (Highfield/Glencairn/Springmartin), ‘B’ (Woodvale) and ‘C’ (Lower Shankill) Companies from the Shankill in the 2nd Battalion of the West Belfast Brigade have approximately 2,500 members and when you think of how small the catchment area is you will realise the sheer strength in numbers and popular support the UDA have in loyalist working-class areas…