McCord: Know your place!

Hain had some barbed comments for Raymond McCord Snr today. When challenged with the claim he had dozed off in their meeting, Mark Devenport quotes Hain as saying that he didn’t want to engage tit-for-tat allegations (1hr 3minutes in Real Player reqd) and that:

“If Mr McCord wants to influence the government there are ways to do it and ways not to do it.”

  • You really can’t but help dislike Hain.

    Perhaps Hain could tell us how he might be influenced ‘cos unless you can threaten walk outs or worse, he doesn’t listen and couldn’t give two hoots for the colonial natives.

  • Alias

    Hain has looked very imperious in the past, but this comment takes him into Napoleon territory. The mask slipped and we got the true Hain: if you get in my way, I’ll destroy you. And I don’t care if you are a grieving father. It was a disgusting spectacle to watch him behave like a colonial vice-regent. The man’s a disgrace. I’ve now joined the ranks of those wanting Blair to go – apparently Brown detests Hain, and one can see why.

  • Billy

    Alias

    I don’t know where you got the stuff about Brown detesting Hain. All the stuff that I have read indicates that they get along quite well.

    Brown may well become leader but it is unlikely that the party will also vote in one of his supporters as deputy leader. The 2 main candidates are Hain and Johnson – Johnson is a Blairite so (from what I’ve read) – Hain would be the “least worst” option as Deputy laeader from Brown’s point of view.

  • Manda

    He does have a point though. Mr McCord was extremely purile by heading straight for the paps after this incident, he should’ve acted a tad more mature and at least attempted to resolve this with Hain’s people first. This is why Hain is angry in my view.
    Nevertheless, it does go to show you just how the big men play in politics. Perhaps Mr Hain would care to elaborate on exactly how to ‘influence the government’!! As we poor, inane individuals would love to know!! Speaking entirely on my own behalf of course!

  • “If Mr McCord wants to influence the government there are ways to do it and ways not to do it.”

    Let’s see. How about..

    Instigate a vicious terrorism campaign. Kill thousands of innocents. Injure tens of thousands.
    Blow the hell out of the commercial heart of London and Manchester. Then pretend to be politicians, produce a shopping list and insist that democracy be perverted to accommodate your wishes.

    That seems to be the preferred route. Mr McCord should get with the programme.

  • Wowee

    And who woud u be talking about David Vance? Obviously the ‘ra!!
    Somehow I don’t think Mr McCord would hav the nerve or the support 4 this campaign. Hence him going to newspapers instead…

  • bertie

    He was quite right to go to the press. Hain is a disgrace and the more his behavour is brought to our attention, the better.

  • Coolian_82

    [play the ball! – edited moderator]

  • Coolian_82

    ‘He was quite right to go to the press’

    I still believe that he could’ve played it differently to prove that he is actually capable of doing so! ie not running to the press all the time

  • Crataegus

    Hain is sitting on 52% in Neath down from 73% in 97 but alas as secure as one can get. Wonder of any local journalists are interested in his antics here? Probably not.

    Our only hope of getting rid of this intolerable personality is a post Blair re shuffle so for many reasons the sooner that happens the better. I wouldn’t mind what appears to be his condescending attitude if he was delivering progress and was showing some real interest in the place and was in charge of ministers who were doing a workman like job, but they are not. They are plain awful. A little less pomposity might be appropriate.

  • Crataegus

    David Vance

    Certainly that is the lesson to learn from NI.

  • Strikes me that Hain is not supposed to popular. And the people of Northern Ireland are supposed to want to get rid of him!

    I would not be surprised if his patience is running thin, with the one hundred and seventy seventh round of political chicken starting in about ten days.

  • bertie

    “I still believe that he could’ve played it differently to prove that he is actually capable of doing so! ie not running to the press all the time ”

    What does he need to prove to anyone. His ability to do anything should not be the issue. What happened to his son, what should be happening to his son and the conduct of Hain are.

    If you want to publicise something, the press are the people to run to.

  • Crataegus

    Mick

    the people of Northern Ireland are supposed to want to get rid of him!

    The question is, is this a clever starting point in the first place. I think it shows a fundamental lack of understanding and because that is how we perceive him simply makes matters worse. Mr Nasty is hardly a clever opening position. It is poor strategic positioning.

  • Hain seems to be saying that justice is conditional on victims playing the Government’s game, which is pretty low.

  • TAFKABO

    Thousands of people have died.

    The majority of those who have died do not have family members who run to the press at every opportunity, and as a consequence we don’t know their names.
    Mr McCord has been a right royal pain in the arse to all and sundry in pursuit of justice for his son, and we all know his sons name, and the names of those suspected of killing him.

    So, what exactly should Mr McCord have done differently?

    I try to repsect the rules of this site, but I can’t help myself from saying that Hain is a greasy sleazy slimy bastard who belongs under the wheels of a bus.

  • Billy

    Crataegus

    “Wonder of any local journalists are interested in his antics here? Probably not.”

    Correct! As I have argued on this site many times, NI is a non-issue to the vast majority of the UK electorate.

    I can’t think of any seat in Engalnd, Wales or even Scotland that is influenced in any way by the candidate’s approach to NI.

    I’m not a fan of Hain but the bottom line is that, as long as he or any NI secretary of state keeps his party happy locally and at Westminster,
    it does not matter how much Unionists or Nationalists may dislike him. There is nothing that they can do about it – NI is bailed out finanically by the UK govt so they call the tune.

    I think Nationalists learned this lesson a long time ago but it seems to be a shock to many Unionists.

    Even if Hain is replaaced in a re-shuffle, Unionists may get someone they like better on a personal basis. However, NI policy is set by the Labour NEC and cabinet, not by the NI secretary of state.

    I see no reason to assume that a different secretary of state or even leader will mean a different NI policy – if you look at Gordon Brown’s key backers, none of them are particularly associated with Unionism. And Hain is likely to move upwards if he moves at all.

    As much as Unionists may dislike it, I don’t see any change in NI policy for 2.5 – 3.5 years (and that assumes that Cameron’s conservatives win the election). NI will have a different political scene by then.

  • Coolian_82

    ‘Mr McCord has been a right royal pain in the arse to all and sundry in pursuit of justice for his son, and we all know his sons name, and the names of those suspected of killing him’

    Also, he has probably made a fortune thanks to the giving of these names!

  • Crataegus

    Billy

    Nothing to do with Unionism, I simply dislike what I see as bad government and mediocre ministers. There is no excuse for lack of coherent strategy and progress on many fronts and none of us should have to tolerate belligerence. This place should be run efficiently for the best interests of the collective people here. Policy is about delivering services and should not be used as a bargaining chip in some never ending political negotiation.

    If I fell asleep in such a meeting I would be mortified and would have offered profound apologies. It is utterly unthinkable and shows scant respect. To then come out and issue veiled threats simply stinks. If this person was an employee of mine he would be looking for another job by now. It is atrocious behaviour. The Secretary of State is not above common decency, in fact he and others in such positions should be trying to set standards of behaviour for the departments below them and for us all. Next time we go into a Government Department what sort of conduct are we to expect from the staff? Indifference followed by threats?

    God knows we all make mistakes and I can hack bad decisions if I am convinced the person was acting in good faith and doing what he thought is best, but this is something entirely different.

    TAFKABO

    I wish there were many many more like Mr. McCord and a lot less like Mr. Hain

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Coolian_82

    You’re talking through your arse if you think McCord gets paid for these stories.

  • Billy

    “NI policy is set by the Labour NEC and cabinet, not by the NI secretary of state”

    The Sec of State seems top be able to do what he likes irrespective of Labour policy in GB – abolishing selection here but rowing back from comprehensives in England, allowing open end rates with no capping here, having a maximum cap in the leafy suburbs of Surrey are two examples that spring to mind.

    It just seems to me Hain has been allowed to do what he likes here by Blair so naturally he and his team run the place like a colony . Contempt for the natives when they have the audacity to complain follows.

    He’s a slimeball. That is not necessarily Conservative Party policy of course but it’s my view! Wonder if I can call him that in my next manifesto?

  • Billy

    Crataegus

    I agree with you – frankly, I’m surprised at some of the attacks on Raymond McCord here. The bottom line is that his son was killed by terrorists and there was possibly a cover up to protect people like Haddock. These same terrorists are now being treated as respectable by the govt and MrMcCord is being painted as a “troublemaker” because he wants justice for his son.

    Like I said, I’m not a fan of Hain but I don’t think replacing him will alter govt policy. On a personal note, I don’t like his arrogance as even a simple apology to Mr McCord for his rudeness seems to be too much to ask.

  • Jack Black

    Mick,

    Exactly right.

    Anyone watch bad lads army last year? The two Cpl’s explained their training technique. First they make the conscripts hate their superiors so the platoon would bond, then they made the platoon hate the other platoon, then they made the company hate the other company and up it goes.

    Hain makes us all hate him so we’ll understand what easy people to get along with the other lot are. Simple really

  • Pete Baker

    Mick

    “Strikes me that Hain is not supposed to popular. And the people of Northern Ireland are supposed to want to get rid of him!”

    That may be the theory being promoted by the NIO, and it is echoed in certain media outlets… but the evidence points to that being a later interpretation of the actions of someone who is, in fact, making it up as he goes along

    The temporary assembly is another case in point.. with Sinn Féin’s non-participation forcing Hain to make their declaration of it’s uselessness a self-fulfilling prophesy.. and introducing the Hain Committee.

    And I’d expect more on that from Martin, or Gerry if he’s back in time, following their next meeting to test the water..

    In the meantime, policing remains the outstanding issue..

    and Hain’s mis-handling of NI, not to mention the decreasing support for labour in his other balliwick of Wales, will continue to undermine his campaign for Deputy PM.

  • Peking

    Those attacking – however mildly – McCord’s running to the media after the Hain meeting should try a little experiment, particularly the parents among us.
    Imagine, if possible, your child being beaten to death. Then imagine how you would feel if you were explaining the case to a sec. of state only to realise he had fallen asleep in the middle of it. Would you be able to resist not giving off about it to the media? It’s to McCord’s credit he resisted decking him.
    We should remember as well, but for the media giving a platform to Raymond McCord he would be absolutely powerless and the killing of his son would just have been swept under the carpet like so many other murders.
    Hain does not even consider McCord from the standpoint of him being a grieving parent – he’s just a bloody inconvenient nuisance. Long may he remain so.

  • GavBelfast

    How inconvenient it must be for specimens like Hain and various paramilitary gangsters that we have the Mr McCords of this world who just won’t let little inconveniences go!

  • POL

    Here Here!!!

  • Congal Claen

    Hi All,

    I didn’t actually notice Hain deny falling asleep. So, I’m assuming he did. Most normal people would be embarrassed by this. But Hain goes on the attack against Mr McCord. He is a complete disgrace.

    Anyone suggesting that this is a role he is fulfilling so we’ll get along better with each other by hating him forget that he’s a complete f**kwit who hasn’t the wherewithall to devise such a strategy. I can remember him in his Europe minister days. The UK had the presidency and where presiding over the negotiations for the European constitution. After the document had been agreed Hain was asked by some journo about certain parts of it. Hain looked bewildered by the question. The journo had only just got a copy of the doc. Hain had been dealing with it for weeks and yet the journo appeared to know more about it. Perhaps he was asleep…

  • Tony Clifton

    Hain is OK, a bit of a harsh character but thats exactly what he is supposed to be like, we arent supposed to like him.

    I do feel for McCord, his son made a few wrong turns in life and then was killed. Which can only be condemned.

    However I do have to say he is getting a little annoying and is a bit of a press junkie – worse than some of our politicians 🙂

    He has certainly gotten more attention than he should have – how many other victims have come and gone in the 9 years or whatever it is since the crime?

    This is part of our hierarchy of victims. The only reason that McCord is still being heard is because he is useful/newsworthy – to beat the UVF with and that still suits.

    The McCartney sisters were used to beat the IRA with but then when the IRA needed to be cleaned up again so the process could move forward they disappeared.

  • Tony Clifton

    I want to be clear that the above isnt McCord fault, of course he would take advantage but he is being used.

  • Daisy

    “He has certainly gotten more attention than he should have – how many other victims have come and gone in the 9 years or whatever it is since the crime?”

    Perhaps if other victims’ families who haven’t received justice had stood up to be counted in the same way as Mr McCord has, things might be very different here. I’m not blaming the families, btw, just wondering if they’d had a voice years ago if things would’ve changed.

  • nmc

    Hain’s a disgrace. He should have a bit of respect.

  • Joe Public

    I don’t particularly like Raymond McCord, but as a Victim of the troubles I agree with him. I think the basic problem was Mr McCord was he was very close to the truth of the dirty tricks played by the Government.

    Just don’t blame Hain for his as arrogance all Secretaries of State for NI have treated people particularly the Victims of the troubles like lepers.

  • nmc

    Just don’t blame Hain for his as arrogance all Secretaries of State for NI have treated people particularly the Victims of the troubles like lepers.

    As Secretary of State, he is a part of the UKs elected gvernment, and as such is directly answerable to the public. Blame him for his arrogance, punish hime for it, raise hell. It’s the duty of the people to keep the government in line.

  • Oranges For Sale

    I agree with the fact that the New Labour policy/attitude towards NI probably will not change, regardless of who the Secretary of State actually is. But for me, Hain represents everything rotten about the New Labour regime from all the political spin right through to the rank hypocrisy. Image the outcry if the Home Secretary had said the same things regarding Stephen Lawrence’s parents in the 1990’s. What a complete disgrace!

  • Oranges For Sale

    On the subject of my last post, I copied this quote from http://www.peterhain.org, which reads;

    “I believe in a participatory democracy in which decision-making and ownership is decentralised, and in which each individual citizen is empowered.”

    Yea right, Peter!

  • Cahal

    Having a good chuckle here at the unionists whinging about their Viceroy.

    You want to be the arsehole of the UK, you get a sphincter like Hain in charge.

  • Brendan

    Peter Hain is just another nail in the coffin of British rule in Ireland. A perma-tanned orange and grey nail, but a nail nonetheless.
    And these people wonder what happened to their Empire ?!

  • Reader

    Cahal: Having a good chuckle here at the unionists whinging about their Viceroy.
    OK then – will you offer us Michael McDowell instead?

  • Fisher of Men

    The media are less interested than they should be. They rarely report Mr McCord’s central themes
    a) that the UVF gang that murdered his son and are alleged to have murdered up to 15 people – undertook these murders with the prior knowledge of their handlers at Special Branch, and
    b) that the UVF central leadership has worked for the Branch for over 20 years.
    These may or may not be supported fully by the O’Loan report – but Mr McCord hasn’t been wrong so far – and the O’Loan Report has been “imminent” for a very long time now.

    It is instructive, of late, to see O’Loan’s people seeeking to shoot the messenger!

  • Cahal

    Reader
    “OK then – will you offer us Michael McDowell instead”

    McDowell was elected by Irish people to serve the wishes of Irish people.

    That is called democracy.

    Hain governs the north of Ireland as he sees fit with no regard for the wishes or well being of the people who live there, as is evidenced by this very thread.

    That is called colonialism.

    Apparently this is what Unionists want. Get used to being treated like the natives from here on in though.

  • Reader

    Cahal: McDowell was elected by Irish people to serve the wishes of Irish people.
    Strictly, he was elected by a proportion of his constituents to serve his constituency, the Republic of Ireland, and the PD party manifesto. I’m not sure Nordie republicans should expect all that much from him.
    I’m sure we both have the right to complain about our bugbears. But we don’t seem to have the option to kick them out.

  • Cahal

    “I’m sure we both have the right to complain about our bugbears. But we don’t seem to have the option to kick them out.”

    Ahh, actually McDowell can be kicked out at the next election due to the policies he has implemented as Justice minister by the people affected by those policies.

    Did anyone from the north vote for Viceroy Hain? Democracy Inaction.