UDA on the streets.. reluctantly.. allegedly..

Several media reports on the ongoing tension within the social workers UDA and specifically in North Belfast. The BBC refers to a “public show of strength” yesterday, while the Sunday Life provides some detail on what has been going on over the last few days, and I note another mention of Brian Madden, previously spotted in discussions with the NIO. The Press Association report has the contradictory statement which was read out to a group of up to 800 men, and quotes Frankie Gallagher, last seen emerging from talks with Taoiseach Bertie AhernFrom the PA report

A statement was read out declaring that the organisation [UDA] would not allow any criminals to deter it from achieving its goal of a lasting peace for its community.

It said: “There were members who used their position to achieve personal gain and fortune, especially through drug trafficking and drug sales.

“This has resulted in those ex-loyalists attempting to protect their fiefdoms by whatever means available to them.”

The UDA urged the Police Service of Northern Ireland to stop criminals operating in north Belfast but went on to claim that a series of attacks in the Ballysillan and Tigers Bay areas had been carried out.

It added in the statement: “The organisation will not stand by and allow its community and its members to be attacked after 35 years of conflict with the Provisional IRA and republicans.

“We have fought the IRA, the RUC and our own army. If need be we will fight drug dealers.

“We believe that it`s the duty of the PSNI to influence law and order so we can all live in peace and safety.”

Also in the Sunday Life, more rhetoric from Frankie Gallagher.. who adds this in the PA report

“It was to demonstrate that the UDA is capable and willing to defend its people and its communities, but at the same time reluctant to go back.”

Worthwhile re-reading the BBC’s Vincent Kearney’s article on the UDA and criminality

Interestingly, the previously high-profile Jackie McDonald is, once again, noticeable by his absence.

And I keep asking this question, as I’ve yet to hear a good answer to it, but is this really the best we can hope for?

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  • Comrade Stalin

    This sounds very serious. I doubt the UDA is going to tolerate having an offshoot in North Belfast operating under it’s name.

  • bertie

    “A statement was read out declaring that the organisation [UDA] would not allow any criminals to deter it from achieving its goal of a lasting peace for its community. ”

    If this was not no sinkeningly serious, it would be funny.

    How was this show of strenght allowed and what steps are the police going to take against them?

    Where did the “supporters” come from?

  • eastbelfastloyalist

    Frankie Gallagher has some neck talking about anybody fighting the IRA. Plenty of us in the east still remember where Frankie was hiding out when their was any fighting to be done.

  • gareth mccord

    so called loyalists attacking so called loyalists! here we go again! who cares ? let them destroy each other and leave the protestant people in peace!

  • Fanny

    ““We believe that it`s the duty of the PSNI to influence law and order so we can all live in peace and safety.””

    Blessed are the cheesemakers.

    Pardon my levity but this is hardly less absurd than some of the gags thought up by the Monty Python team.

  • bertie

    Fanny

    They do have a hell of a cheek!

  • Ciaran Damery

    Now if occupied Ireland was not under foreign jurisdiction, those in the uda/uff who are renowned for their criminality, fascism and terrorism would be removed from society and incarcerated…of course occupied Ireland would need an impartial police service to carry implement what one would consider a basic fundamental premise of law. Rather, we have these gangs of Orange thugs and drugged up, unemployable losers strutting around in public threatening the public apparently without consequences. That, my friends, is absolute evidence that occupied Ireland is a failed political entity, ungovernable, lacking a police service and undemocratic.

  • GavBelfast

    Perhaps the McAleeses could use their influence to expedite matters to a nice solution?

  • Garibaldy

    Ciaran,

    And the huge gangs of professional criminals in Dublin, Limerick and elsewhere. What do they say about the southern juridicial system. That independence does not automatically mean the ability to deal with crime.

    As for this rally, it’s hardly the only rally in NI over the last few decades were statements were read out in front of hundreds of people on behalf of a paramilitary organisation. People should be getting worked up about the threat of violence, but this show of strength is hardly unique.

  • willowfield

    CIARAN DAMERY

    Now if occupied Ireland was not under foreign jurisdiction, those in the uda/uff who are renowned for their criminality, fascism and terrorism would be removed from society and incarcerated…of course occupied Ireland would need an impartial police service to carry implement what one would consider a basic fundamental premise of law. Rather, we have these gangs of Orange thugs and drugged up, unemployable losers strutting around in public threatening the public apparently without consequences. That, my friends, is absolute evidence that occupied Ireland is a failed political entity, ungovernable, lacking a police service and undemocratic.

    No part of Ireland is “occupied” or under “foreign jurisdiction”.

    For the record, the police has a relatively strong record of bringing charges against “loyalists”. A better record, indeed, than it has against “republicans”.

    It’s unclear to me what offence was being committed last night. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

  • Peking

    willowfield

    Don’t get drawn in by that clown.
    He’s a troll, not worth the effort.

  • loftholdingswood

    From the outside it certainly does seem somewhat bizarre but, like everything in life, there is method in the madness. A few boils need lancing so that progress is made. My colleague Mr Gallagher clearly spelt out the “why’s” and “wherefores” and it was a token demonstration to show those who needed to see the demonstration that we are capable of said demonstration. If you catch my drift!.

    I am happy to answer any reasonable questions that regular “sluggers” may have and will attempt to be as honest as possible.

    If anyone has time read Kim Stanley Robinson’s short story entitled “The Lucky Strike”. It will clarify things.

  • bertie

    Willowfield,

    if terorist organisations having a “show of strenght” is not a crime, it damn well should be!

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Why are posters continually making sly jibes such as “social workers” at the UDA? It seems that loyalists are “fair game”, an easy target, whereas the same rules aren’t applied to the cancer that is republican terrorism…any objective discussion regarding the above thread is compromised by these petty digs at the Defence Association.

  • willowfield

    bertie

    It depends what is meant by “show of strength”. The production of illegal weapons certainly constitutes a crime, but I struggle to see what offence is being committed by a large gathering of men. Unless “loitering with intent”?

  • harpo

    ‘if terorist organisations having a “show of strenght” is not a crime, it damn well should be!’

    Bertie:

    Now be fair. The KKK GAA is hosting one in Belfast on August 13, but I doubt you will see many calling that a show of strength. They claim it’s a commemoration of a major part of nationalist history, or some such. Maybe the UDA just need to describe what they do in different terms.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Another thing I feel I need to address. Not so long ago a poster accused me of exaggerating the strength of the UDA when I estimated the organisation had somewhere between 30-40,000 members. If they can gather up at least 800 men in a matter of hours on the Shankill, does that not indeed contradict the said poster who reckoned the UDA had, at best, a few hundred men?

  • bertie

    All terrorists are fair game for condemnation and ridicule.

  • loftholdingswood

    “All terrorists are fair game for condemnation and ridicule”

    Therefore in your world there will never be change, never be a movement away from violence, never be hope for something better.

    I don’t want to live in your world.

  • bertie

    It is entirely mutual, Unfortunately murderers inpinge on my world and on the world of other innocent people. If the bad guts could only hurt other bad guysm I would say let them get on with it.

    Some of us don’t need inducements and pandering to not to be terrorists and thse that do cannot be trusted

  • Dave

    The present day UDA is an illegal pro state terrorist organisation. Many people within this terrorist group have used there position to line their pockets. The time has now come for the UDA and others to put their weapons beyond use and leave the policing to the proper agencies the PSNI and the Army if needed.

    A new chapter has started and unionist politicians must play their part on behalf of those who elected them as must the unionist population. The idea that paramilitaries make statements to the unionist people must come to an end, it is high time that the people issue a statement to the paramilitaries via their elected representatives.

    Although the statement which was made was a brass necked one to say the least, the indicators are there for illegal defence associations to stand down and allow the political parties to come under the spotlight of democracy? What is needed now is very strong policing with the rule of law and order at the forefront for all the people of Northern Ireland?

    Should members of the republican/nationalist community take it upon themselves to participate and/or support an anti state terrorist organisation again in a quest to overthrow the government and secure a united Ireland by armed force, then I would suggest that the people of Northern Ireland leave the task of dealing with such an organisation to the PSNI/ Army and other agencies.

    As for any pro state terrorist organisation members reading this er.. rant.. you are no longer required or needed.

    Now if occupied Ireland was not under foreign jurisdiction, those in the UDA/UVF who are renowned for their criminality, fascism and terrorism would be removed from society and incarcerated…of course occupied Ireland would need an impartial police service to carry implement what one would consider a basic fundamental premise of law. Rather, we have these gangs of Orange thugs and drugged up, unemployable losers strutting around in public threatening the public apparently without consequences. That, my friends, is absolute evidence that occupied Ireland is a failed political entity, ungovernable, lacking a police service and undemocratic.

    Posted by Ciaran Damery on Jul 30, 2006 @ 05:54 PM
    I would like to hear a statement from you condemning IRA, CIRA and other anti state terror organisations. It is just not possible to condemn one without condemning the other, if by any chance you have made a statement against Republican/Nationalist violence on another thread, then please accept my apology. As for “an impartial police service to carry implement what one would consider a basic fundamental premise of law” what is your definition of impartial?

    I see that you had to draw the Orange Order into the debate, as always and that must tell you something about yourself would you not agree on this. What is it about the Orange Order you don’t like, is it that they are Protestant or the fact that some of their members are African blacks, American Red Indians or because some are Polish it could be the case that you don’t like old people as that is what the Orange Order mainly consists of elderly old men.

    You say that “occupied Ireland is a failed political entity, ungovernable, lacking a police service and undemocratic” all of Ireland is occupied so which of the 26 counties are you referring to? If you mean Northern Ireland then say Northern Ireland as for the rest of your rant namely “is a failed political entity, ungovernable, lacking a police service and undemocratic” then you need look no further than SF/IRA and the British government for that is where the blame lies or is that also the fault of the Orange Order.

    Come on lets hear you condemn Republican/Nationalists terror organisation or at least admit to the fact that these organisations do exist. Any such statement made by you will probably be recorded by somebody and used at a later date, scary!!!

  • Mainlander

    Damery
    “occupied Ireland”
    Love it.
    N.Ireland is occupied solely by the people who live there.

    Try and meet some. E
    Expand your poltical horizons, if you dare

    “Why are posters continually making sly jibes such as “social workers” at the UDA?”

    Concerned loyalist

    From what I’ve seen, it’s because the majority of commentators on Slugger are Republicans and are also apparently shameless hypocrites…but…but…in my book a terrorist is a terrorist, from wherever he operates from and on whoever’s behalf he says he’s operating.

    I don’t know your attitude towards the UDA/UVF, but I get the kind of impression that there’s some kind of sympathy there.

    Be honest with yourself (you don’t have to put the answer down here, you know what the Republicans are like on here;))what have the UDA/UVF ever really done for us?
    (and 30,000 -40,000 in the UDA, c’mon;))

    Anyway, keep the faith, mate, there’s few of us on here, but we’ll give the rascals a run for their money;)

  • lib2016

    Dave,

    War’s over years ago and loyalists are contained to a relatively small and decreasing number of estates which can be easily sealed off.

    The IRA are in the process of retiring, the British Army are leaving. Nothing left now but to wait for a gradual shift of Direct Rule from London to Dublin.

  • canwebanulstermanplease

    once again we see the UDA eating it’s own. the only problem i have with this is that, usually, some innocent bystander (catholic or protestant) will be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get killed as a direct result.

  • dave

    Lib 2016

    In your dreams, besides Lib 2016 says it all?

  • harpo

    ‘Nothing left now but to wait for a gradual shift of Direct Rule from London to Dublin.’

    lib:

    I just love the inability of IRs to face reality.

    You lost. Get over it.

    There is no magic transfer of direct rule. There is no magic road to a UI via alternate means.

    And if you hadn’t noticed the British Army are not leaving. They are being reduced to peacetime levels. So that the levels will be like any other part of the UK.

    But in your head they are leaving, right? If that’s what gets you through each day, keep on building those fantasies.

    When 2016 comes and goes, and there is still no UI, what will you say then? That it’s still just around the corner?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “From the outside it certainly does seem somewhat bizarre but, like everything in life, there is method in the madness. A few boils need lancing so that progress is made. My colleague Mr Gallagher clearly spelt out the “why’s” and “wherefores” and it was a token demonstration to show those who needed to see the demonstration that we are capable of said demonstration.”

    I do not worry about the method in the madness, I worry there is too much madness in the method.

    Another joyous summer of bloodfeud and turf… or perhaps they resent the competition in the rackets.

    Concerned Loyalist: “Why are posters continually making sly jibes such as “social workers” at the UDA? It seems that loyalists are “fair game”, an easy target, whereas the same rules aren’t applied to the cancer that is republican terrorism…”

    *snicker*

    you’re here, aren’t you? Its all a matter of whose ox is getting gored.

    LHW: “Therefore in your world there will never be change, never be a movement away from violence, never be hope for something better. ”

    Really? And how many Loyalist guns have been turned in? The tricolors still burn, as do the effigies of the Pope — as does the occasional slogan celbrating the death of Catholic children.

    Change will be welcomed, but will be credited when it is more than just words and press releases. Unionism demanded deeds. Nationalism is entitled to the same scepticism.

  • Mainlander

    He has been updating it on a regular basis for the last two decades Dave-Lib 1985, Lib 1990, Lib 1995,Lib2000

    Same old arguments from 20 years ago as well. You’d have thought it’d be starting to filter through by now….Dublin…wants..nothing…to do with us.

  • bertie

    “Change will be welcomed, but will be credited when it is more than just words and press releases. Unionism demanded deeds. Nationalism is entitled to the same scepticism. ”

    This is what is wrong with this ruddy place!

    I am an unionist and my demanding deeds had nothing to do with that. I am demanding deeds of this crowd of thugs too. What is your view of whether NI should stay in the Union or become part of a UI, supposed to dictate your relative tolerance to the plethora of terrorist groups?

  • pitt park

    Seems that the handlers are cutting the drug dealers loose.

    South East Antrim have broken away from the Jackie McDonald leadership, with Tommy Kirkham joining them as spokesman.

    The word coming out of Antrim is that McDonald’s South Belfast crew are the biggest drug sellers out of the whole bunch.

    Who cares if they all shoot each other, drug dealers poison kids and ruin lives.

    The sooner the shooting starts the better.

  • utrect

    Bertie

    perhaps you could ask the orange order why they commemorate these thugs at parades.

  • bertie

    What would be the point of such a question?

    If any such terrorists are so commemeorated then that should be condemned and I would be keen for that to be stamped out, but the vast majority of parades don’t. I have certainly never seen one.

  • bertie

    “Who cares if they all shoot each other, drug dealers poison kids and ruin lives.”

    main reason – because the innocent get caught up in it and what do we do with the “winner”?

  • Mainlander

    Standby for a:
    Newsflash from Planet Relevance

    “The word coming out of Antrim is that McDonald’s South Belfast crew are the biggest drug sellers out of the whole bunch.”

    Cor, thanks for that, straight of the press, Pitt Park, now we all know.

    That’s what I like about the commenmtators on Slugger, guys from the hood with their fingers on the keyboard ready to illuminate the world.

    Cheers.

  • gareth mccord

    facts are uda uvf ira all sell drugs, murder, pimp,intimidate,extortion and destroy and hold back our country.AND THEY ALWAYS WILL! until the people of n.i.stop voting for politicians who do nothing but collect the big salary and deliver nothing but empty promises! ITS ALL DOWN TO ONE THING MONEY!!!

  • binlid

    “You’d have thought it’d be starting to filter through by now….Dublin…wants..nothing…to do with us.”

    Mainlander,

    Neither does London.

  • McGrath

    Bertie:

    main reason – because the innocent get caught up in it and what do we do with the “winner”?

    Hopefully there would be no innocent casualties and the winner has no dirt on the government and the police will then be allowed to arrest him.

  • qubol

    Concerned Loyalist: “Why are posters continually making sly jibes such as ‘social workers’ at the UDA?”

    Well CL unlike you, no-one else refers to that gang of gangsters and thugs you slavishly follow the ‘Defence Association’. In fact most people have the wit to see that bunch of over-weight, perma-tanned, chunky gold-chain wearing prats not as the Flying Eagle 22nd Battalion (btw, please don’t correct me on my ignorance of the UDA setup) but rather as a drug dealing sectarian murder association that take much and give little.
    The UDA set themselves up for this – they have no mandate, the fact that most loyalists would rather vote for Paisley than the local hardman in the UPRG/UDA says it all.

    Concerned Loyalist: “I estimated the organisation had somewhere between 30-40,000 members. If they can gather up at least 800 men in a matter of hours on the Shankill, does that not indeed contradict the said poster who reckoned the UDA had, at best, a few hundred men?”

    If loyalism ever needs someone along the lines of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf then I reckon CL is just the man.

  • Pete Baker

    Concerned Loyalist

    “Why are posters continually making sly jibes such as “social workers” at the UDA?”

    Since I appear to be the poster you’re referring to, I’ll explain the “sly jibe”.

    If you follow the links back you’ll find it’s a reference to a quote noted here[scroll down]

    “People depend on paramilitaries for certain things. They are like social workers, they get their doors knocked day and night about a noisy neighbour, a fight in the street.

    ..from a recent interview by the Chair of the PUP, and Policing Board member, Dawn Purvis.

  • glenn

    Very cultured, these loyalists !!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZqWIw46xkA&search=ulster defence association

  • Pete Baker

    Lofty

    The offer to answer reasonable questions is appreciated, although I think the intent behind the “demonstration to show those who needed to see the demonstration that we are capable of said demonstration” is fairly clear.

    Generally

    What’s noticeable in the comments so far is the lack of focus on the apparently ongoing negotiations discussions between both the Irish and British governments and paramilitary and criminal groups such as the UDA.

    Worth noting too that Ihab Shoukri is currently remanded in jail awaiting trial on the charge of… membership of the UDA..

  • McGrath

    From the BBC website…..

    “On Friday night in north Belfast, police seized a shotgun, ammunition and petrol bombs following a stand-off between up to 80 members of rival UDA factions. One man has been charged.”

    The operative word is “seized”, before some wisecrack suggests the cops just found them laying around, just one arrest!.

    Are the PNSI the weak link is “ALL” of this gangster shite. Do we have a police force full of gutless pricks or are their hands really tied?

    Effective law enforcement would seem to solve a lot of this. (Both sides)

  • harpo

    ‘What’s noticeable in the comments so far is the lack of focus on the apparently ongoing negotiations discussions between both the Irish and British governments and paramilitary and criminal groups such as the UDA.’

    Pete:

    Well of course this isn’t focused on.

    While ordinary unionists condemn this encouragement of these paramilitary thug groups, the governments ignore all of that and keep right on along with their plans to appease these buggers – loyalist and republican. Over issues such as the so-called CRJ schemes.

    Many nationalists spend all of their time condemning the loyalist groups when this appeasement takes place, yet happily welcome the smae measures when it comes to appeasing republican groups. When it comes to republican groups we are told they are forces for peace and wanting to embrace change etc.

    It’s nationalist double standards – as usual – combined with 2 governments who don’t give a monkeys.

    Meanwhile ordinary unionists condemn all of this activity, but they are ignored by the governments and told by nationalists that they have to do something about the loyalists.

    Here’s what most unionists say – starve the paramilitaries of attention. There should be no funding of them by whatever means and no tolerance of their activities. I don’t know what else ordinary unionists can do. No matter what they say they are ignored.

  • harpo

    ‘Do we have a police force full of gutless pricks or are their hands really tied?’

    McGrath:

    Of course their hands are tied.

    If the government meant it when it says it wants to eliminate paramilitaries wouldn’t they just ignore them, and send the police after them?

    Instead the governments are spending oodles of time talking to paramilitaries, as is the Irish President, and they are thinking up all sorts of stupid ways to spend money on them, let them run so called CRJ schemes etc.

    Would you see this in the US? Politicians running after the mafia? No wait… bad example… of course you would.

  • harpo

    It’s getting awfully hard to follow all the different bits of the UDA these days.

    Here’s a suggestion – how about some TV production compnay does a “UDA Idol” TV reality show?

    Have squads of say 20 men from all of the various UDA areas – South Belfast, North Belfast, South Antrim etc etc.

    Put them in a big mansion somewhere and hide some weapons. First team to find them gets to use them on whoever else they like.

    And as the mid-season twist, bring in some exiled units like Johnny Adair’s Bolton unit (or wherever he is now).

  • McGrath

    Harpo:

    “Of course their hands are tied.”

    Its truly depressing.

    I therefor reluctantly refer everyone to my first post in this thread and suggest there is outside manipulation and motivation involved (like it hasn’t happened in the past).

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “I am an unionist and my demanding deeds had nothing to do with that. I am demanding deeds of this crowd of thugs too. What is your view of whether NI should stay in the Union or become part of a UI, supposed to dictate your relative tolerance to the plethora of terrorist groups? ”

    Frankly, bertie, I will worry about the swamp once we’re done taking care of the snakes, aligators, leeches and other problems. First things first.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    pitt park: “Who cares if they all shoot each other, drug dealers poison kids and ruin lives.”

    Responsible folks in both communities should… Not every bullet is adequately addressed… and shrapnel is labelled “ocupent: to whom it may concern.”

  • Dread Cthulhu

    “occupant” even…

    *sigh*

    too early for multi-tasking…

  • bertie

    DC

    Not ggod enough. My point is that you seem more concerned with one type of snake, aligator, leech and accuse us all of being the same.

    What else can youe comment about unionists demanding deeds and nationslists demanding deeds. Why is your attitude to the IRA so different to the UDA and why do you assume that we are the same only in reverse.

  • Bushmills

    “The new brigadier was only allowed to return home last year after agreeing to be kneecapped.”

    Lovely lads in McAllesse’s Own Borderers – and this is who HMG would have running restorative justice schemes? FFS, the world has gone mad!

  • fair_deal

    The ‘morality’ of the peace process in full operation.

  • Bushmills

    fd

    Indeed.

  • pid

    “Lads, the kids miss me, can I go home”

    “NO WAY, YOU TWOFACED BASTARD”

    “Ach, go on, I’ll be no trouble, I promise”

    “OK, BUT YOU’RE GONNA HAVE TO BE CAPPED FIRST”

    “Why?”

    “POLITICAL ADVICE”

    “OK, a small one so”

    “WHICH LEG? YOU DON’T WANT TO BE A LEFT-FOOTER”

    “Go ahead, I don’t care”

    BANG!

    Ouch!

    “OFF HOME WITH YE SO”

    “Thanks. Any chance of a lift?”

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “Not ggod enough. My point is that you seem more concerned with one type of snake, aligator, leech and accuse us all of being the same. ”

    Seeing as one variety of ‘gator has turned in their weapons and recognized by the IMC and others as eschewing violence and winding down their criminality, it only stands to reason to worry more about the other. Once the Loyalists have turned in the bulk of their weapons, I’ll worry less about them, too. As I said, deeds, not words. Loyalism is short on deeds.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Frankie Gallagher has some neck talking about anybody fighting the IRA. Plenty of us in the east still remember where Frankie was hiding out when their was any fighting to be done.

    Posted by eastbelfastloyalist on Jul 30, 2006 @ 04:46 PM

    Where was he hiding then? Have you been out on the streets defending your area or are you too busy sitting at your keyboard slagging off TRUE Loyalists on Slugger?

  • bertie

    DC
    tsk tsk
    still not good enough!

    why did you talk about just unionists needing actions re the IRA and just nationalists needing actions ’round these gangsters?

    Am I not allowed to need actions with respect to the UDA?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “why did you talk about just unionists needing actions re the IRA and just nationalists needing actions ‘round these gangsters? ”

    Mayhaps because I can only speak for myself and I’m not a Republican, bertie. I’m also not a Unionist. You want to speak up, you don’t need my permission. Take it up with the UDA apologist. Frankly, men of goodwill should welcome points of agreement, not get insulted when one does not wish to speak for another’s point of view.

    Besides, from this blog, is anything ever is good enough for Unionism?? Why would the goalposts keep slipping further and further out?

    bertie: “Am I not allowed to need actions with respect to the UDA? ”

    You can need anything you want, man. Christ on crutch, man, sing it out loud. I’m not a Unionist and wouldn’t presume to speak for Unionism, save on rare sarcastic moments, but taht’s just me. But it’s not *MY* job to make *your* arguement. Loyalism has enjoyed a certain level of official, if convert, support, I would suggest you take your argument up with the state. Who knows — if enough folks sing from the same sheet of music long enough, maybe the someone will realize there is the policital will to put the Murphys and the Shoukris and the rest of the criminal set into the clink.

  • bertie

    DC

    I;m not asking you to make my argument. I am just curious why you commented about unionists needing actions re the IRA and nationalists would need it re the loyalists. It wasn;t the state that made that comment it was you?

    You din’t just speak for yourself you didn’t just say that you would need actions re the UDA. Do you speak for all nationalists? That will be handy to keep in mind for the furure.

    Go on just admit it. It was because you think that it is somehow natural and expected for unionist to oppose the IRA and nationalists to oppose the UDA but somehow not for people to oppose the terrorists of “their side”. You’ll feel better for confession;)

  • Dread Cthulhu

    bertie: “I;m not asking you to make my argument. I am just curious why you commented about unionists needing actions re the IRA and nationalists would need it re the loyalists. ”

    Have you not been paying attention? The goal-posts keep creeping back every time progress is made? Invariably, there is alwas a new demand. Are not Nationalists entitled to a few reservations regarding Unionism’s les enfants des perdue?

    bertie: “It was because you think that it is somehow natural and expected for unionist to oppose the IRA and nationalists to oppose the UDA but somehow not for people to oppose the terrorists of “their side”.”

    Tried that tack before — got the verbal shrug and “spides will be spides” subtext. Unionism, vis-a-vis Loyalism, is a lot of talk. Loyalism talks about getting right with the law and the community, Unionism talks a good game about the horrible things that some Loyalists do and “ain’t it a damn shame.”

    Unionism is… content is not the right word… murr…

    Disarming and normalizing Loyalism is seemingly duplicitous on the subject. Big Ian blows hot and cold on the subject, Loyalists make a few noises about disarming, but nothing happens. So, frankly, you can want what you want, bertie. I just would suggest you not hold your breath waiting for it.

    Nationalism is entitled to its reservations and desire for deeds. This does not deprive you of the right to reservations or to demand deeds. However, for Unionists to ignore the fact that Loyalism is, in part, a creation of the state is a trifle duplicitous.

  • bertie

    “The goal-posts keep creeping back every time progress is made”

    This is not relevant to the point that I was making butno matter.

    I don’t agree. The goal posts have stayed the same. some have just chosen to interpret the goal as being so wide that anything the terrorist do is deemed to be a goal.

  • McGrath

    Tubruk:

    Here, the pendulum of opinion swings very broadly. You are likely to agree with very little of what is stated here. I suggest you enjoy the learning experience.