‘Learn from us: jaw-jaw is better than war-war’…

LESSONS learned in Northern Ireland need to be learned in the Middle East, Tony Blair said the other day. He told the Commons: “It’s interesting to think ten years ago it looked like the Palestinian peace process was in better shape than that in Northern Ireland. I think the lesson of the last ten years is that unless people are put into a process which ensures continual dialogue then the danger is that the extremes take over because there is a political vacuum there.” So there you go; dialogue, no matter how meaningless, is always better than conflict.

  • Brian Boru

    “Given that Hezbollah started all of this, I don’t see why Israel isn’t entitled to try to reduce Hezbollah to a level where it is of little threat. The previous buffer idea didn’t work – Hezbollah just moves further back out of the buffer zone until Israel withdraws, then moves back in and sets up in the fashion we see today.”

    Israel started it by attacking bombing Gaza after withdrawl, which in turn led to the capture of Israeli soldiers as POWs, which in turn led to the Israelis intensifying attacks on Gaza, and Hezbollah intervening in support of their Arab brothers. Israel must end its 60 yr reign of terror in the region against Arabs. The root cause is the occupation. End it and you get peace.

  • harpo

    ‘Is it not time people stopped repeating the fiction that Israel’s attacks on Gaza and Lebanon is about the capture of three members of the IDF, one by hamas militia and the other two by Hizbullah. I am genuinely interested wether those who keep punting this line really believe it.’

    mickhall:

    I believe it in relation to Hezbollah. Think about it. Israel hadn’t been involved in Lebanon for years, then suddenlt Hezbollah mount an attack to kill Israelis and take prisoners.

    Why don’t you condemn Hezbollah for those actions?

    ‘In return the arab combatants who are currently in conflict with israel will recognize its right to exist within these borders.’

    Hezbollah won’t. They are on record as saying that they won’t.

    Why can’t you admit the reality of the Hezbollah situation, and stop dealing in generalities about the PLO etc. The PLO? The PLO is a historical artifact. Things have moved on, and groups like Hezbollah aren’t interested in the PLO, or deals over borders. They want to destroy Israel.

    You of course will defend any group that attacks Israel on your ‘Israel is wrong, so all opponents are right’ basis, but that’s nonsense. What is the purpose of Hezbollah exactly? They are not the defenders of the Lebanese people, since in this case they are attacking Israel. They started this crap.

    Hezbollah started this, knowing that they would draw a heavy response from Israel, leading to Israel attacking Lebanon, leading to Hezbollah claiming ‘we are defending Lebanon’. And that will be swallowed by locals who think like you – that Israel is responsible for everything that happens. And that leads to more support for Hezbollah, as people who sympathize with them become active supporters.

    If there is any realpolitik going on here, this is Hezbollah making a move to control all of Lebanon. They do this to create support for themselves, and so that they can point to the young democracy and say ‘democracy can’t help you against the Israelis, but we can’.

    All of this is cynical use of the Lebanese people by Hezbollah. Some groups in Lebanon aren’t falling for it though – Christian groups are already stating that they know what Hezbollah is doing. Starting a fight with Israel, so that Hezbollah can then claim to be the defenders of Lebanon.

  • mickhall

    The people who act as Israel’s groupies believe they are friends of Israel and I presume Jews in general, your not, for nothing stays still especially in the middle east. One of the main problems with the middle east politically is the difficulty all sides have had with coming to terms with the reality of their situation.

    Thus in the past tin pot Arab regimes believed they could destroy the Jewish State and drive its people into the sea. Now we have the Jewish State believing it is invincible; and all it needs to do to remain in existence, is remain on a war footing and thus it will be able to sponge off the US tax payer in perpetuity.

    Although if this goes on and on, the most likely outcome will be some fool fanatic, building a nuclear device in his back garden and detonating it in downtown Tel A viv. No more Israel, no more Palestine, no more hope and certainly no more next year in Jerusalem, whether it be Arabs or Jews meeting there.

    So carry on cheering every missile and bomb the IDF fires northward, dance happily on the graves of Hizbullah militants, why make peace when you can kill all who disagree with you. But remember in behaving in this manner you are storing up ever more hatred and rage. Have a look at the map, there are not enough Israelis to kill every Arab, but if this goes on and on, there will be enough Arabs who hate all Israelis that much that given the means they will be able and willing to kill every Israeli and Palestinian, plus wipe the only Jewish state off the face of the earth.
    Some times I wonder if this is not what you groupies really want.

    Don’t lets talk peace, don’t lets even think about it, lets just cheer on the flowing of more blood, until we reach a time when we will be unable to tell wether it was Arab or Jewish blood because the two will mingle in a nuclear desert..

  • Brian Boru

    “I believe it in relation to Hezbollah. Think about it. Israel hadn’t been involved in Lebanon for years, then suddenlt Hezbollah mount an attack to kill Israelis and take prisoners.”

    Lebanon has a territorial dispute with Israel over the Sheeba Farms so that is disputed. The UN does not recognise Sheeba as part of Israel. Maybe if Israel wasn’t occupying other people’s countries they wouldn’t be hated and consequently attacked so much.

    Of course Unionism is going to support Israel. Unionism has a long history of oppression on this island so I suppose birds of a feather flock together and Israeli oppression is therefore bound to be supported too.

  • lib2016

    Brian,

    You have it right. They’ll never learn that in the long run the peasants ALWAYS win.

  • Brian Boru

    Well usually anyway lib2016.

  • lib2016

    Brian,

    Just for a change I’d like to post on the subject of the thread – maybe if Tony took Adams and McGuinness with him he might have some credibility. 😉

  • mickhall

    I do not expect you conservative guys to take much notice of me, but have a read of Andrew Sullivans article in todays [London] Sunday Times, it can be found at the link below it is well worth a read.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,29449-2281183,00.html

    Regards

    mick

  • harpo

    ‘why make peace’

    mickhall:

    Nice rant, but on small detail that you don’t address. How DO you ‘make peace’ with an organization that is trying to wipe you out?

    Hezbollah is on record as saying that their intention is to destroy Israel, so exactly how do you deal with that attitude?

    Or do you have some special knowledge that leads you to believe that Hezbollah will do what the Provos did – move from a position of ‘the war’ ‘never never never’ ending in 1987, to one where ‘things have changed’ by 1998, resulting in no more war?

    Is this all just bravado by Hezbollah, in the way all those sttements by Adams and McGuinness were? Have the Hezbollah leaders been bought off by nice suits and holiday homes in the Lebanese equivalent of Donegal?

    Tell us all about it.

    ‘Don’t lets talk peace’

    That’s rich coming from a guy who blames one side exclusively for all the ills of the region, and is blind to the acts of Hezbollah, who ‘aren’t extremists’.

    ‘The people who act as Israel’s groupies believe they are friends of Israel and I presume Jews in general’

    And who are those folks? I’m no Israel groupie, but I can see reality. Hezbollah brought this on Lebanon, never mind all the excuses about Hezbollah wanting to help their Arab brothers.

    As for groupies, don’t YOU ever get tired of cheering on the anti-Israel side? You claim that things don’t stay still in the middle-east, yet all I see from the lefties is continuing support for any and all who are against Israel.

    ‘Have a look at the map, there are not enough Israelis to kill every Arab’

    I don’t see numbers of people on maps, so what is this all about. Israel could kill every Arab, given that they have nukes, but so far as I know, they have no imtention of doing so. On the other hand several countries and organizations in that part of the world are ll on for killing every Israeli. Hezbollah for one, and Iran for another.

    The Israelis aren’t in the business of wanting to kill every Arab, but don’t let that get in the way of the reality you seek.

    ‘One of the main problems with the middle east politically is the difficulty all sides have had with coming to terms with the reality of their situation.’

    Like the Lebanese. They thought they could let Hezbollah run free and that it wouldn’t attack Israel. That’s the whole purpose of Hezbollah.

  • harpo

    ‘Lebanon has a territorial dispute with Israel over the Sheeba Farms so that is disputed. The UN does not recognise Sheeba as part of Israel. Maybe if Israel wasn’t occupying other people’s countries they wouldn’t be hated and consequently attacked so much.’

    Brian:

    Almost right. It’s Syria that claims the Sheeba Farms, not Israel. So Lebanon should take it up with Syria, not Israel.

    True enough Israel occupies that land, but that’s only because Israel has been attacked from that land. Israel doesn’t claim that they own it.

    ‘Maybe if Israel wasn’t occupying other people’s countries they wouldn’t be hated and consequently attacked so much.’

    And maybe if people in those other countries didn’t attack Israel from those countires, then Israel wouldn’t need to occupy bits of other countries.

    ‘Unionism has a long history of oppression on this island’

    Oh right…now here comes the MOPEry. When did unionists ever occupy any part of the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland? That’s right, they didn’t.

    Would you have been happier if unionists had carpet bombed Dundalk or Monaghan town after some attack across the border by any of the IRAs? I’d say the Irish were lucky that they didn’t live next door to Israel when the IRAs tried their various campaigns. Towns in the ROI might have resembled Beirut from time to time. Unionists showed much more restraint.

  • Brian Boru

    “Or do you have some special knowledge that leads you to believe that Hezbollah will do what the Provos did – move from a position of ‘the war’ ‘never never never’ ending in 1987, to one where ‘things have changed’ by 1998, resulting in no more war?”

    It might happen. SF actually maintained a hardline position in the talks until the last few days when they dropped their demands for the GFA to include a United Ireland. The Hamas govt was on the verge of signing a deal with Fatah accepting Israel’s existence a few weeks ago.

    “And maybe if people in those other countries didn’t attack Israel from those countires, then Israel wouldn’t need to occupy bits of other countries.”

    That was decades ago. Time to move on.

    “Oh right…now here comes the MOPEry. When did unionists ever occupy any part of the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland? That’s right, they didn’t.”

    No but they partitioned the island and the Belfast regime from 1920-72 presided over tyranny including sectarian policy (McMahon family massacre, state-collusion with Loyalist killers), gerrymandering, keeping the Taigs out of govt (except 1 Attorney-General), denial of one-man-one-vote, incendiary statements from Ministers telling people not to employ Catholics e.g. PM Lord Brookeborough etc. You didn’t have the hardware to do Beirut on us anyway.

  • mickhall

    harpo

    As was Bush intention you have built in your mind Hizbullah as being some sort of massive force, they are not.

    As I said in a previous post there will be some who refuse to accept a realistic peace process, some will be jews others arabs. but the fact is in my judgement the majority would willingly accept a two state solution based on Israel’s 67 borders.

    Were this to happen rejectionist organizations would not be free agents to act at will within arab nations, the more so one that is financed by persians, for a start those who govern the front line states would have something to hold up to their populations to prove that peace not only works, but gains lost ground back that was once occupied by Israel. Thus at a stroke the recruit base of groups like hizbullah would be reduced considerably; and the status of those who made peace work would raise.

    As it is hizbullah cries look arafat and sadat tried the road of compromise with israel look what happened to them, war is the only way and in truth they have a point, as Israel simply refuses to enter any democratic and equal peace process.

    The British could not defeat the IRA in the tan war nor in their war with the Provos, admittedly the IRA could not drive the british out by force of arms. So compromise and politics came into play from both parties. Are you suggesting it would have been better for one side or the other to have rejected this and fought on indefinitely or willed the war to future generations as happened in the north after the tan war.

    The only question one needs to ask is can Israel defeat hizbullah
    and indeed vice versa, i do not believe Israel can do this, even if they kill two thirds of its army and leadership. As to Hizbullah, recent events have proved they are no real threat to the State of Israel, a bloody iritant yes, but a real threat no. What we are getting from bush and blair is a rerun of their WMD double act, this time to justify war crimes.

    Now if you harpo believe they can, then your current position is perfectly logical, although in my opinion completely unrealistic. As this is the very strategy Rabin took during the first intafada and all he managed to achieve was a ready source of volunteers to fight round two. Need I remind you that round two of the intafada saw the birth of suicide bombers in Israel. In other words rabin strategy made a bad situation worse.

    All an army like Hizbullah needs to do is survive to fight another day, whereas a conventual army needs to totally defeat its foe, for if it does not it will end up in a quagmire such as Iraq is today.

    I think we are chewing the same bone now so I will ask you one final question, do you believe Israel can defeat hizbullah and bomb its sponsor into the stone age. if not, the only long term hope for the State of Israel is compromise and the sooner the better, for they might not again be in such a favourable position as they are now.

    All the best

  • Dread Cthulhu

    mickhall: “do you believe Israel can defeat hizbullah and bomb its sponsor into the stone age. if not, the only long term hope for the State of Israel is compromise and the sooner the better, for they might not again be in such a favourable position as they are now. ”

    They have the capacity…

    the *REAL* questio is do they have the will.

  • They have the capacity…

    Rubbish

    WE have the capacity. WE built all those HE rounds. WE built all the GBU’s that are landing on the Lebanese and the F-16’s that deploy them.

    Screw “will”. Those Israeli kids will do the dying for our political expediency.

    Bush just nosed over again in the polls. Christ, he was even over at the NAACP begging the other day.

    They will be given until mid August as a drop dead date, no later. America has a six week memory and Lebanon must be wiped before the beginning of campaigning in October.