Concerning report on racism…

NORTHERN Ireland folk believe they are more racially prejudiced now than before the influx of ethnic minorities from abroad, which followed the ceasefires. According to the Life and Times latest survey, Catholic and Protestant attitudes are becoming increasingly prejudiced, although it reports that the proportion of Protestants who view themselves as racially prejudiced is much higher – and increasing at a faster rate.

  • Know thyself That’s a start anyway

  • TAFKABO

    Do we interpret these findings as showing protestants more predjudiced, or more self aware and honest about the predjudices they have?

  • willis

    In the Life and Times survey, this is the question I am really worried about

    ” RACASPUN: Should womeone who commits a racist assault should be more severely punished than someone who commits an ordinary assault?”

    Who are these womeones? Should we fear them?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Sad but not unexpected

    ‘Do we interpret these findings as showing protestants more predjudiced, or more self aware and honest about the predjudices they have?’

    Yeah, Catholics more prejudiced and dishonest to boot.

  • TAFKABO

    Pat.

    Personally I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe one community is more or less predjudiced than the other.
    I think the disparity in instances of racism is due to the disparity in the dispersion of people from ethnic minority backgrounds.
    I think that the experiences from ethnic minorities in the Irish republic shows that this problem is not one which is particularly relevant on the religious or political background of the perpetrators of racism.

  • TAFKABO

    Why was the life and times survey even concerned with catholic and protestant?
    What possible purpose can be served by this statistic?

    With the introduction of this breakdown we will now get an argument about themmuns Vs Ussuns, when we should simply be talking about racism, and how to deal with it.

  • Mickaline

    Tafkabo

    “Personally I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe one community is more or less predjudiced than the other.”

    How could you say something like this, Tafkabo, when a very good majority of racist incidents in NI are committed by loyalists/protestants?

  • TAFKABO

    Mickaline.

    I explained my reasons, feel free to dispute my explanation.

  • Why was the life and times survey even concerned with catholic and protestant?
    What possible purpose can be served by this statistic?

    Because it is interesting information as the divergence in statistics reveals. Pretending that there aren’t two communities with different values and attitudes in the wee north is hiding one’s head in the sand.

  • TAFKABO

    Mick.

    Can’t you see the irony in the fact that according to one interpretation of the statistics, Northern Ireland protestants are more in line with typical Dublin attitudes than Northern Ireland catholics?

  • Mickaline

    Tafkabo

    “I explained my reasons, feel free to dispute my explanation.”

    Well your “reasons” aren’t very reasonable. Loyalist/protestant racism existed long before other ethnic groups started arriving in NI. Now that they have, loyalist/protestant racism has taken on a new light, by attempting to inject their fear (racism in reality) into the nationalist/catholic areas.

  • TAFKABO

    Well your “reasons” aren’t very reasonable. Loyalist/protestant racism existed long before other ethnic groups started arriving in NI.

    Hmm.

    Please define what you mean by Loyalist/protestant racism, and while you’re at it, tell me exactly how long there has been an ethnic Chinese community in south Belfast?

  • elfinto

    Maybe the Brit government will import some of their patronsing multi-cultural bullshit to complement the patronising cross-community bullshit they’ve been inflicting on us for years.

    Racism is undoubtably a probelm in Ireland (north and south) as it is in any country but we must find our own solutions rather than use the British one.

  • Mickaline

    Tafkabo

    “tell me exactly how long there has been an ethnic Chinese community in south Belfast?”

    Yes, I should have qualified that with the more recent arrival of ethnic groups from the European and North African communities. Specifically Lithuania.

  • TAFKABO

    Elfinto.

    Do you think an all Ireland approach might be helpful?

  • Nathan

    It seems all NI political parties have failed to address the racial prejudices that prevail in civic society.

    The best thing NI political parties can do to reverse this trend is to start putting ethnic minority candidates forward for political office -ethnic minorities need a sense of belonging and they can only achieve this if they’re participating fully in civic life.

    The above process is already happening in the Irish Republic (albeit tokenery), where we’ve had one ethnic minority TD in Dail Eireann in the past decade, plus a few councillors who are either independents or part of mainstream politics.

    Unfortunately, Sinn Fein is the only party to have failed to put forward an ethnic minority candidate in the south – although I have it on good authority from one of their elected rep’s from my area that Derry City Council already has a mixed race Sinn Fein councillor, and that down south a high-profile councillor who occasionally scans Slugger for his NI news, is married to a Muslim (the former was news to me, but I have no reason to doubt the individual who made that comment), so hopefully for their sake that party is undergoing change also.

  • boshank

    i don’t deny that racism is not prevalent in Northern Ireland but equally i believe it is just as prevalent in the rest of the UK, France, Belgium etc. What marks us out in NI is that we have a sub-tier of bureacracy by the likes of human rights commissions, commissions on this that and the other. They paper push and justify their existence with research such as this. It’s akin to the European Institutions where reports are commissioned for commissioning sakes.

    I believe that if a similar survey was carried out in Nottingham, Navan or neufchatel you would find similar findings…

  • TAFKABO

    Nathan.

    From what I can see, Sinn Fein are ahead of the game in dealing with racism, and all credit to them for that.
    However, I see a problem in the idea that a party like Sinn fein put forward a person from an ethnic minority in Northern Ireland.this would, again in my opinion, associate the ethnic minority with anti unionist sentiment, and a deepseated association with violence against the unionist community.
    It’s a real shame, since, as I said, Sinn Fein are ahead of the game when it comes to racism.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    It is no surprise to me that 33% of protestants in the north of Ireland state they are predjudiced to minorities. They have ruled the north as racial superiors…so they just see themselves better than…THOSE ….people. Much of this behavior can be stated it is caused due to the parade issue.Because the protestant community sees its members being governmentally ALLOWED to march into areas as VICTORS into neighborhoods that don’t want them there…they, feel entitled and superior. Why would anyone expect less from this community…they have not had to treat the minority Catholic community as equals…so others coming in that are even ‘more’ different due to physical characteristics…will be labeled as inferior also…. The protestants are governmentally rewarded for their predjudices to the minorities in their community. Until such a time that this reward system ends…the protestants will feel superior to minoritites. 33% of people in one community feeling superior and not being punished for this…it is a very dangerous situtation.

  • boshank

    Kathy C,

    What a wonderful diatribe. I’m jewish and feel quite at home in the UUP, you might also like to ask our community relations spokesman Richard watson who comes from an central asian background is he feels that this superior attitude is prevalent. The UUP is just one example, i have yet to witness this attitude in the protestant community,if anything my experience points the other way, particularly in rural NI and Eire, this cultural aryanism you allude to…personally i think that is BS.

  • Briso

    Do we interpret these findings as showing protestants more predjudiced, or more self aware and honest about the predjudices they have?

    Posted by TAFKABO on Jun 21, 2006 @ 12:17 PM

    With the introduction of this breakdown we will now get an argument about themmuns Vs Ussuns, when we should simply be talking about racism, and how to deal with it.

    Posted by TAFKABO on Jun 21, 2006 @ 12:49 PM

  • Greenflag

    ‘The best thing NI political parties can do to reverse this trend is to start putting ethnic minority candidates forward for political office ‘

    What nonsense . It’s probably tough enough being an immigrant Chinese, Indian , African or Lithuanian in Northern Ireland without also having to make the decision whether or not one is Catholic Chinese or Protestant Chinese , Indian Free Presbyterian or Methodist African or Bush Baptist Lithuanian .

    Racism is generated by fear of the ‘other’. If ‘racism’ finds fertile soil in NI it’s only because NI has a head start in the ‘Racism” stakes . It could be argued that the very foundation of the NI State was based on ‘racism’.

    Education and legislation are the only effective methods open to any Government that tries to combat ‘racism’. Economic growth and political stability also help.

    The Irish Republic elected it’s first non white TD back in the 1980’s IIRC . The Clare Constituency elected an Indian ‘psychiatrist’ as a Labour TD . His election motto was that he wanted to bring some ‘colour’ into the Dail . After his period in the Dail he returned happily to the more normal world of the ‘psychiatrically’ disturbed . He apparently made some comment about the vast amount of research material available in the Dail for people in his profession:)

    No doubt an even vaster amount of research material awaits any psychiatrist elected to the non existent NI Assembly 🙁

  • TAFKABO

    Briso.

    Want to explain why you posted those two statements from myself?
    I don’t see any conflict between the comments, but if you do then tell us what it is.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Why was the life and times survey even concerned with catholic and protestant?
    What possible purpose can be served by this statistic? ”

    Its a “discrete” division (in the mathematical / statistical sense) in the overall population. When one is examining statistical differences, one is usually not too concerned about political correctness, only where the data leads.

    TAFKABO: “With the introduction of this breakdown we will now get an argument about themmuns Vs Ussuns, when we should simply be talking about racism, and how to deal with it.”

    And how does one find the racists, if one cannot develop a profile of who they are and where they can be found?

  • Realist

    kathy c,

    How would you wish this part of the report away, or did you miss it?

    “Between 1994 and 2005 the proportion of Catholics who reported being prejudiced doubled from 9% to 18%”

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘However, I see a problem in the idea that a party like Sinn fein put forward a person from an ethnic minority in Northern Ireland.this would, again in my opinion, associate the ethnic minority with anti unionist sentiment,’

    This is true, during the bizarre tit for tat displays of Israeli and Palestinian of a few years ago Palestinian Support Groups asked republicans to desist from these actions or at least to discourage those who were doing it. There was a fear that they would be perceived as being connected with one section of the community year, when in reality they would take support from where ever they could get it.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Boshank, How lucky for you. Now, I want to ask you this…do you agree with the law that states your monarch can not marry or be a member of my faith…Catholic? Your monarch can be a member of your faith and marry a member of your faith…but can not be one of mine? Your party…UUP supports the british crown…and this requirement of any religion allowed for the monarch even yours…a Jew….any religion for the monarch EXCEPT…the papist Catholic. I find the UUP to be predjudice against Catholics being a member of the british crown…. You’re allowed…I am not…that is not equality or fairness…it is religious purity of those who feel superior…..and as a Jew…you should be more sensitive when a group of people are being delegated to a lesser standing in society…and not join a party that promotes it.

  • boshank

    Kathy C,

    there are all kinds of archaic rules in the UK, it take your point though regarding the monrachy. However i would suggest that the act of settlement is not representative of the modern, multi-cultural and largely ethnically tolerant United Kingdom that welcomed my family three generations ago and still makes me feel welcome today.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Realist, I didn’t see your post because I was posting at the time. I don’t want to wish away the jump in the percentage of Catholics being predjudiced to others. It is less than 20% of the Catholic population but it is higher than the less than 10% of the population it once was. Even one percent being predjudiced is one percent too many.
    Now, how do I see these numbers? Several ways.
    Often times there are those in the lowest level of society (and in the north it has been the Catholics who are on the low level…) when new other members of a group arrrive…they want to elivate their status and how this is done is by putting the new comer at the bottom ….below…where they are…thus the person is no longer on the bottom… Also, it can be explained that there are some in the Catholic community who are willing to do anything to have the ‘superior’ race accept them…or if not accept them…at least not want to destroy them…so in a bid to be accepted…they turn on groups who their superiors deem lesser people. And then, sadly, it can be said that some Catholics are just predjudice….

  • wild turkey

    Why was the life and times survey even concerned with catholic and protestant?
    What possible purpose can be served by this statistic?

    Tafkabo,

    It is standard procedure in all social(including attitudes), demographic (census), economic and labour market surveys to collect descriptor information on age gender race, community background, disability, level of highest educational qualification, etc etc.
    The absence of such data would raise eyebrows, serverly limit the utility of the survey for primary and secondary analysis, and probably limit available funding.

  • Kathy_C

    Posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,
    Boshank, it may be archaic as you say…but it is the LAW… You may not find the act of settlement representative of your new cultural and tolerant UK…but it is the LAW. By LAW…the monarch can not marry or be a member of my faith…I don’t find that is tolerant…it relegates people of my faith as lesser human beings because we have a law that states…we can’t breed the next monarch…and certainly we can’t be the next monarch…any one but us…..and as I stated earlier…how lucky for you …that you are a Jew….you can be the monarch…you can breed the monarch…Catholics can not.

  • mickhall

    Dread,

    You do not need these type of surveys to find racists, just go into any Orange or Hibernian hall, let alone an average pub or golf club.

    It was an error to look at the two communities individually as it was bound to make this descend into whataboutary. It is equally daft to believe that those who have suffered oppression will not then oppress others, as one of the tragedies of the Jewish people is that for all we suffered, some have gone on to do exactly the same to the Palestinians. [Please if some fool is going to bring up that the suffering inflicted on the Jews during the holocaust is not on a par with the suffering inflicted by the state of Israeli on the Palestinians then I agree, but on an individual basis I am sure the effect feels much the same.]

    The fact is unlike most of western Europe countries, Ireland has come late to having an influx of newcomers to its shores. Better late than never I would suggest and given time the Irish will come to terms with this phenomena of the modern world. It is going to occur so accept it and do not waste time being hateful to them, as they are in Ireland to stay. There is a lesson here from the last 30 years of conflict in the north.

    Make the best of it and above all else, remember what a cold shoulder in a foreign land is like and give these newcomers a smile and a friendly word.

    Most will have a great deal to offer and when a few bad apples turn up, as they will, do not overreact and blanket all new comers in the same basket. In a small country like Ireland the two governments must try and encourage newcomers to live in all parts of the Ireland and not just in Dublin and Belfast, for if this does happen it will be storing up unnecessary problems for the future, although even these will not be insurmountable problems.

    good luck

  • boshank

    Kathy C,

    I can’t argue with your point on the act of settlement. It isn’t right full stop. However singling out the monarchy as the be all and end all of British society is a tad over simplistic.

    If you feel a lesser human being as a result then i can’t argue with that but i woul contend that the millions of catholics in the UK don’t share your view. Ask Cherie Blair…

  • Bill

    When people with baseball abts can ask a belgian and french palyer not of European origin to leave the maiden city and it is said that there has never been a history of racism in locla football you can unerstand why people will try to get away with this stuff.

  • Realist

    “By LAW…the monarch can not marry or be a member of my faith…I don’t find that is tolerant…it relegates people of my faith as lesser human beings because we have a law that states…we can’t breed the next monarch…and certainly we can’t be the next monarch…any one but us…..and as I stated earlier”

    kathy c,

    In fairness, the only people who seem to have a major issue with this are Irish nationalists/republicans – most of whom, I suspect, do not aspire to be the British Monarch.

    The Monarch is, of course, the nominal figurehead of the Anglican Church.

  • John C

    The minority TD was a useless waste of space, just like the 108 MLAs, and we do not need any more like that.

  • Realist

    “When people with baseball abts can ask a belgian and french palyer not of European origin to leave the maiden city and it is said that there has never been a history of racism in locla football you can unerstand why people will try to get away with this stuff”

    Bill,

    Perhaps you will enlighten us as to how this incident had anything to do with football, other than the guys in question happened to play a bit for the Institute club?

    I think you will find that these guys were not the first footballers (not of European origin) to be intimidated out of Derry.

  • Realist
  • TAFKABO

    Mickhall.

    Excellent post.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mickhall: “It was an error to look at the two communities individually as it was bound to make this descend into whataboutary.”

    So accepted practice in statistics and social science should be abandoned because someone might get their feelings hurt? Religious background is a standard and legitimate social data point, especially given Northern Ireland’s history and social division. To ignore this measure would damage the validity and usefulness of the findings, starting with the fact it would be ignoring reality — there really are two distinct communities within the statistical “population” of Northern Ireland. Besides, if the findings had been reversed, we both know that some of the folks moaning the loudest would be wetting themselves in glee and those crowing the loudest would be strangely mute. Statistics simply are, although I would like to see some other information before buying into this or any other survey, starting with the survey questions and the internals used. Bad questions = bad results.

    Mickhall: “Most will have a great deal to offer and when a few bad apples turn up, as they will, do not overreact and blanket all new comers in the same basket. In a small country like Ireland the two governments must try and encourage newcomers to live in all parts of the Ireland and not just in Dublin and Belfast, for if this does happen it will be storing up unnecessary problems for the future, although even these will not be insurmountable problems. ”

    The concentration of the immigrants has more to do with why the came — most are coming to Ireland for a better life and live in the “big city” out of economic necessity, not choice, perceiving them as where the jobs are.

    To be honest, it should not be suprising that the Unionist community self-perceives as being “racist.” From what I’ve read, most of the immigrants have settled in Unionist neighborhoods. Thusly, the people who live nearest the immigrants, logically, will be the ones to have the first cultural clashes with the new immigrants. Based on this social and cultural “teething pains,” some may perceive themselves or their neighbors as “racist” based on the inevitable culture clash and knowing pains, regardless of whether they are truly racist or not. Likewise, Catholics, who don’t have the same issues, at least not to the same degree, will not have the same perceptions, since they don’t have to interface with the new immigrants.

    A survey is just a tool. The results are readily open to analysis. While numbers don’t lie, per se, they can be Rohrshach blots, where people will see what they want.

  • leni riefenstahl

    Och look at them with their endearing wee Nazi salutes at the top of Sandy Row….

    We live in such a tolerant, progressive society

    *sigh*

  • Garibaldy

    Greenflag,

    Does [Ben? I can’t remember his first name] Briscoe, a Jewish TD from the early period of the Dáil count as non-white?

    As for pyschiatrist MLAs, isn’t Alderice one, and possibly Seamus Close as well?

    Kathy C,

    Personally I find you breaking your posts up with … all the time makes them unreadable.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,
    Boshank and Realist, It is illegal in the UK to sell drugs, It is illegal in the UK to murder, It is illegal in the UK to steal, It is illegal for the monarch in the UK to marry a Catholic…ergo per Margaret thatcher…a crime is a crime is a crime. To minimize what the Act of Settlement does to the british mentality…make it illegal for the Head of State to marry a Catholic …and then have as your national anthem…the song…God save the queen (who by law isn’t a Catholic…) is just wrong and promotes a superior protestant mentality…which is dangerous.

  • mickhall

    TAFKABO

    Thanks, it is kind of you to say so.

    All the best

    Mick

  • Triumph of the desperately ill

    Leni Riefensthal.

    Didn’t you find it a little curious that the video you posted to featured people with English accents shouting “come on England” ?

    At least your namesake filmed the real deal and didn’t try to pass of one thing as another.

  • Realist

    “To minimize what the Act of Settlement does to the british mentality…make it illegal for the Head of State to marry a Catholic …and then have as your national anthem…the song…God save the queen (who by law isn’t a Catholic…) is just wrong and promotes a superior protestant mentality…which is dangerous”

    kathy c,

    I would hazard a guess that the Act Of Settlement has no real meaning whatsoever to 95% + of British Citizens, whether they be Protestant, Catholic, other or neither.

    Whilst recognising that it is a thing of the past, what impact on the mentality of people (particularly of an older vintage) living on the island of Ireland did the part of the Constitution which reserved a “special place” for the Catholic Church, and the relationship between Church and State have?

    Some people have long memories.

  • seanniee

    I have always wondered how guys like Ken Macguiness could spin the lie that they loved being with Britain as it was so multicultural.
    It seems they cannot even stand a few dark skins
    in the north now.How would they far in somewhere like Hackney.They might be more at home in Donegal or Kerry.Of course Ken and old Dave Trimble would never admit to that.

  • Greenflag

    Actually it was Robert Briscoe who was Dublin’s Lord mayor . My old man always voted for Bob Briscoe 🙂 Ben Briscoe (born March 1934) is a former Irish Fianna Fáil politician. He was a TD for the constituency of Dublin South West and from 1969, Dublin South Central. Briscoe was first elected to Dáil Éireann in the 1965 General Election to succeed his father, Robert Briscoe who had been a TD for 38 years. Ben Briscoe retained his seat for 37 years until retiring at the 2002 General Election

    As well as the Briscoes the Republic has had a Jewish Government Minister -Mervyn Taylor (Labour) and Alan Shattner (FG). Some witty TD from Dublin made the remark at a time when all three Irish Jews were in the Dail at the same time that they had us surrounded from the left , right and centre .

    As for being white or non white ? Who cares ? They were all excellent public representatives and got more results than the 108 gobablongs that ye have in NI 🙂

    As to Alderdice and/or Close being psychiatrists ? I’ve no idea . But I’m sure if they are/were, it must have been a great help to both as they have seen the NI Assembly descend from the lunatic heights of power sharing bliss to the depths of the present comic opera behaviour of the leading parties .

  • Garibaldy

    Greenflag,

    I couldn’t give a fiddler’s about people’s colour, it’s their ideology I’m interested in. I was just wondering seeing as you had raised the issue did they count as white or not in your eyes out of curiosity.

  • Separate issue, but I see Monsignor Denis Faul has died.

    R.I.P.

  • Sean Fear

    “Please if some fool is going to bring up that the suffering inflicted on the Jews during the holocaust is not on a par with the suffering inflicted by the state of Israeli on the Palestinians then I agree, but on an individual basis I am sure the effect feels much the same.] ”

    I imagine the effect is rather different.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I couldn’t give a fiddler’s about people’s colour, ‘

    There is only one human race and it’s made up of thousands of ethnic groups which differ from each other to a greater or lesser extent . But we are all 99.9% the same and as as individuals we are all 99.9% different . There is no such thing as the Human Genome . There are 6 billion human genomes .

    ‘it’s their ideology I’m interested in .’

    Well the FG TD Alan Shattner IIRC was a Fitzgeraldine centre left , Mervyn Taylor of Labour would have been traditional left of the Irish variety and the Briscoes would being FF have had no ‘ideology’ as such but probably could both be described as Sean Lemass type political pragmatists who made up policy on the basis of whether it worked or not . I’m sure the long stretch of economic and social stagnation 1932 to 1957 was a lesson in realpolitik for the Irish politicians of the 1960’s and the Briscoes represented their constituencies throughout that period.

    ‘I was just wondering seeing as you had raised the issue did they count as white or not in your eyes out of curiosity. ”

    I did’nt raise the issue -Garibaldi made the initial reference . As for being ‘white ‘ in my eyes ? Considering I’ve pink skin , grey eyes and red hair even I’m not ‘white’ 🙂

    BTW the Ashkenazim (European jews) have contributed out of all proportion to their numbers to the advances made in human scientific, medical and economic development . Some of my favourite writers include ‘Ashkenazim ‘ like Jared Diamond, Stephen Jay Gould, Isaac Asimov (The Roving Mind) and many others .

    Maybe I was Jewish in a previous life 🙂 ?

  • Garibaldy

    Mea culpa. Nathan made the initial reference to ethnic minority politicians, you followed on it with the Labour psychiatrist, I followed up on that with a question about whether Jews were white, i.e. whether they were considered by people as an ethnic as opposed to religious minority was what I was getting at, albeit in a roundabout way

  • elfinto

    When I visited Jerusalem last summer I saw people of all colours. The vast majority of security guards (with whom I had many – always courteous – dealings) were black. I suspect most were of Ethiopian Fallasha origin. I didn’t see many people with ginger hair and freckles, though.

  • Garibaldy

    Like Kyle out of South Park you mean Elfinto.

  • kensei

    From my experience on the Catholic side, there is an awful lot of casual racism in the older generations. But they wouldn’t neccessarily thnk it wrong to use the word “darkie” or “paki” or the like. It’s a lot less prevalent in the younger generations, and I don’t think there is the same type of organisational and agressive racism, particularly if you compare the paramilitaries.

    There is work to be done, but as of yet I think it would be fair to say Nationalism hasn’t shown the same kind of aggression a la “Sandy row is Sandy Row”. I pray we keep it that way, and I noticed a SF billboard in multiple language yesterday. I’d like to se all Nationalist leaders proactive on this, and not just wait until something bad happens.

  • Garibaldy

    Do people think Travellers are more likely to be targets of racism from people who live in nationalist areas because they are more likely to live there? Do they think racism against Travellers is widespread?

  • turkeyarla

    Hmmm….if the prods are so bad, how come immigrants overwhelmingly opt to live in unionist areas?

    Also, lets look at history.

    Usuns:

    _Only_ anti-jewish pogrom in the British Isles in the last 500 years.

    Visceral racism in the ROI (wonder what a Prod/RC
    survey would look like down there???)

    Worst anti-black violence in US history (draft riots…read all about em”

    Themmuns:

    A survey

  • bum fluff

    It´s true the prodesons are racilaists, coz I was at the shankill leisure for footie and in the showers was a big black fella and the prodies where making fun of his manhood and calling him names.

    We don´t have them up in Andytown, but hey I wouldn´t mind them, some of the weemen ones are well fit.

    I don´t think us Catholics are racialists, but my da is and doesn´t want them in our areas, I think it would be all right apart from the pakis.

  • Greenflag

    Also, lets look at history.

    Indeed lets look .

    Ireland = The only anti jewish ‘pogrom’ ever in which no jewish person was killed .

    England – First State sponsored case of ethnic cleansing in Europe when Richard the Lionheart expelled all Jews from England and thousands were killed as they tried to flee the country .

    Simon Schama (himself a British Jew now in the USA described the English pogrom in some detail in his TV series History of Britain.

    We’ll not mention the English ‘pogrom’ against Irish people 1550 to 1700 . Suffice to say that the numbers ‘dispatched’ make Richard the Lionhearts ‘pogrom’ and the New York draft riots look very tame indeed.

  • Greenflag

    Mea culpa.

    For your penance -25,000 Our Father’s , 35,000 Hail Mary’s and 150,000 Glories etc etc 🙂

  • Greenflag

    ‘Do they think racism against Travellers is widespread? ‘

    Strictly speaking ‘racism’ against Travellers is a nonsense . Irish Travellers are of the same ‘race’ as the rest of the Irish people . People do not like Traveller’s as neighbours not because of their ‘race’ but because having a Traveller as a neighbour is the quickest way to lose half the value of your property .

    You’ll find the same social phenomenon everywhere when people of a particular ethnic/religious /cultural background move into another area or into an area which has never had to cope or deal with such differences . Most people will be concerned about what the impact will be on their property value Aand personal security. It’s the human condition everywhere and not just in NI .

  • John

    Some Protestant Churches preach religous intolerance from the pulpit. That’s the real reason for the difference.

  • Nathan

    “However, I see a problem in the idea that a party like Sinn fein put forward a person from an ethnic minority in Northern Ireland.this would, again in my opinion, associate the ethnic minority with anti unionist sentiment, and a deepseated association with violence against the unionist community. ”

    I never thought of it like that TAFKABO – I’m so keen to see ethnic minorities striving to make their presence felt in towns and cities across the island (one way of achieving that is via politics), that I’m quick to forget that NI is a precarious place, and that it has never been good at dealing with any sort of difference.

    As for Sinn Fein being ahead of the game when it comes to racism, I don’t dispute that – although I feel the anti-racism rhetoric is partly strategic (e.g. to entice ethnic minorities to join the electoral register and vote SF). They know only too well that by tapping into the growing immigrant vote in NI they can go along way in copper-fastening their political position in NI – every vote counts for them and should there be a border poll in the next 20 years, they will need ethnic minorities on-side – so as to give the unionist population a good fright if not a good lashing in a future referendum.

  • TAFKABO

    Nathan.

    To be honest, even if they are just being cute hoors by realising that those immigrants have votes, I’d still rather see a party fight for equality to get votes than stir up hatred to get votes.
    I’m not going to fault them for seeing that it makes sound sense to be anti racist.

  • IJP

    (Lord) Alderdice is not an MLA.

    For the record, among Alliance’s 48 candidates for local government were an American and a Spaniard, the former finishing as a runner-up.

    As to the actual subject, there’s a lot of rhetoric about it. I’d prefer to see people take action on the obvious difficulty of making people welcome in a society where you have to be “one” or the “other”.

    Are the politicians who feed of this “either”/”or” mentality not responsible for failing to create an integrated society in which anyone from any place can feel welcome?

  • m

    NILT surveys are notoriously inaccurate.

    It is easy to see their limitations when you compare their survey with reality:

    NILT findings from the same sample set as above on party affiliation

    If the NILT sample is so far off on something like political affiliation the whole survey and sample used must be questionable?

  • Nathan

    To be honest, even if they are just being cute hoors by realising that those immigrants have votes, I’d still rather see a party fight for equality to get votes than stir up hatred to get votes.
    I’m not going to fault them for seeing that it makes sound sense to be anti racist.

    I’ll second both of those points.