Republicans fail to implement cross-community deal

Ballymena Loyalists have said the cross-community deal that saw the removal of a UDA mural opposite a Roman Catholic chapel is off. Republicans have failed to deliver on their promised reciprocation of removing Irish tricolours.

  • Ziznivy

    Idiots. They have no conception of claiming the moral high-ground. Harryville was looking better for this replacement mural, but nothing like cheapening your own area to get back at the taigs.

  • Loftholdingswood

    I fail to see how they are idiots. They made an agreement, the other side have not stuck to it and they are rightly annoyed. What would you have them do?

    And presumably you don’t feel tricolours hanging on every street corner is “cheapening” your respective area?

    This was an opportunity missed. And knowing some of the people in Ballymena it will not be offered again. Rightly so in my opinion.

  • Colm

    So ‘officials’ say that a UDA mural could be reinstated. What sort of ‘officials’ are in a position to place murals in public in support of an illegal terrorist group, and why are murals like these permitted.

  • bootman

    Are they really comparing a mural of a sectarian murder-gang opposite a church with the flying of the national flag symbolising peace and unity?

  • fair_deal

    The comparison was agreed in the deal

  • Ziznivy

    “I fail to see how they are idiots. They made an agreement, the other side have not stuck to it and they are rightly annoyed. What would you have them do?

    And presumably you don’t feel tricolours hanging on every street corner is “cheapening” your respective area?

    This was an opportunity missed. And knowing some of the people in Ballymena it will not be offered again. Rightly so in my opinion.”

    Clearly they should re-erect a disgusting paramilitary mural once again. That’ll teach the republican residents of Dunclug or Fisherwick a real lesson.

    Whether republicans choose to fly flags or not has little to do with paramilitarism in Harryville and a tricolour or two elsewhere in the town doesn’t make it more excusable.

  • elfinto

    These loyalist ‘officials’ are obviously proud of their Ulster-Scots heritage. So much so that they want to paint over it with a UDA mural. Just to annoy taigs. Priceless!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Colm: “So ‘officials’ say that a UDA mural could be reinstated. What sort of ‘officials’ are in a position to place murals in public in support of an illegal terrorist group, and why are murals like these permitted. ”

    What sort of officials? Take your pick — scared/intimidated ones or sectarian ones.

    They are permitted because the artist’s patrons have a propensity for registering their displeasure in a fashion somewhat more dangerous than simple harsh language.

  • qubol

    Ziznivy – good point
    Dunclug and the Cushendall road don’t need or want these flags (Dunclug does have a significant Nationalist / Republican community but these flags have been put up by dissident republicans) In no way am I in favour of cheapening the irish flag like loyalists by flying it on a stick from a lamppost. That said Loyalists did have the ability to claim the moral high ground here but through their own stupidity they let it slip. Regardless of the deal, Harryville was better off without these murals why can’t they see that.

  • Loftholdingswood

    That’s right Ziznivy, flying flags has nothing to do with the issue. Oh wait, it was part of an agreement. Let’s not worry about that though, agreements are made to be broken right? Amazing. Truly amazing. And the lemmings on the forum wonder why Unionists are reticent about going in to deals with Sinn Fein.

  • ncm

    It’s ridiculous that the agreement had to be made in the first place, as the only tricolours I’ve seen in Ballymena are in catholic/republican areas. Why are the loyalists in Harryville bothered about a piece of fabric on a lamp post well over a mile away?

  • Loftholdingswood

    As ridiculous as it may seem it was at least a small step in the right direction and presumably was seen as a ‘confidence’ building measure in the run up to the ‘oh so contentious because we want it to be’ marching season. In the real world of course it means diddly squat but there you go. Think UPRG representatives and other Loyalists will try this again in the area? Me thinks not.

  • Ziznivy

    I’m certainly not supportive of the flying of tricolours anywhere in Northern Ireland, although I’m realistic enough to recognise that it isn’t a major issue. I’m also not particularly supportive of hanging the Union Flag like a rag from a lamp-post.

    But as for acting preciously over an agreement between dissident republicans and loyalist paramilitaries ……. Christ on a bike! The mural shouldn’t have been there in the first place. The fact that a culturally significant replacement was erected was enriching to the entire unionist community in Harryville and Ballymena. To take a step backwards from something positive because “themmuns never took their flags down” is utterly pathetic!

  • elfinto

    I still have trouble with the words ‘Ballymena’ and ‘republican area’ in the same sentence. Then again I haven’t spent a lot of time in the ‘City of Seven Towers’, its reputation as the buckle of Ulster’s Bible Belt being enough to deter me.

    Obviously Ian Paisley’s ‘assiduous constituency work’ on behalf of north Antrim Catholics is reaping rewards.

  • qubol

    Loftholdingswood: “Think UPRG representatives and other Loyalists will try this again in the area?”

    Being honest I was surprised that the Neanderthals behind the Harryville Church Protests where capable of this deal to begin with. Loyalists have only reverted to type and risen to the equally stupid actions of dissident republicans in Dunclug and Fisherwick. I only hope that Loyalists and in particular the moonlighters at WrightBus don’t want to come up to Dunclug again and take down the flags.

  • TAFKABO

    Incredible to see how many posts are focusing on the notion that the mural might be replaced,and completely ignoring or dismissing the fact that the flags are still there.

    I guess what loyalists might do is always more important than what republicans are doing.

  • elfinto

    TAFKABO,

    Reverse the scanario. Loyalists put up some Union Jacks in a mainly unionist area. So in revenge, republicans paint an IRA mural outside a Protestant church, painting over a mural commemorating the famine in the process.

    I agree, the flag stuff is unnecessary – I wish unonists would take a tough stance against the hideous and threatening flags which disfigure our streets – but the ‘retaliation’ defies logic.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Incredible to see how many posts are focusing on the notion that the mural might be replaced,and completely ignoring or dismissing the fact that the flags are still there.

    I guess what loyalists might do is always more important than what republicans are doing. ”

    Not for nothing, but the flags do not glorify an illegal organization. The mural did.

    That said, if it was a quid pro quo, then its an open question what *ought* to happen.

    Then again, can you enforce a contract between illegal organizations?

    Of course, in the true spirit of local bureaucracy, wouldn’t it be grand if the “local officials” had the spine to actually A) paint over the offending mural and B) take down the likely unpermitted banners and just be done with it. But then, it would be grand if the yahoos on both sides of the divide didn’t provide their rebuttals in the form of violence…

  • kensei

    Yesterday on the radio, the Republicans Version was: Flags were put up for an Apprentice Boys march. Loyalists stated that the weren’t UDA flags, so it was okay. Republicans said the deal was all or nothing and put the flags back up. Now the mural is coming back.

    So it could be just as well “Loyalist fail to implement cross community deal”, and that is a misleading title. It should be “Everyone needs to wise up and just get rid of the things”.

  • TAFKABO

    Not for nothing, but the flags do not glorify an illegal organization. The mural did.

    Leaving aside the fact that we both know exactly what the flags signify, a deal was supposedly struck.
    Given that so many are so knowledgeable about the Loyalists and loyalism, what does it say for anyone who would deliberately antagonise them in this way?
    Let’s be absolutely clear, I think the Loyalists are ultimately responsible for whatever the Loyalists do, but can we at least admit that republicans have acted in bad faith here and needlessly excacerbated the situation?

    Rather than wait until the Loyalists repaint the mural, why don’t they just live up to their part of the deal as soon as possible?

  • confused

    What is so offensive about a UDA mural in a protestant town anyway ???. If they dont like it move the chapel to somewhere it is wanted. The church should not build Contentious chapels where they are clearly not wanted in a protestant area stirring up tensions.

  • observer

    ncm
    “It’s ridiculous that the agreement had to be made in the first place, as the only tricolours I’ve seen in Ballymena are in catholic/republican areas. Why are the loyalists in Harryville bothered about a piece of fabric on a lamp post well over a mile away?”

    It may well be ridiculous that an agreement had to be made in the first place. But an agreement was made and therefore shouldn’t it be implemented by the two sides equally?

    The only place that tricolours may be flying are nationalist areas, but the only place that the UDA mural is/was is Harryville, an area that despite having a chapel is probably 100% prod/unionist. The issue of why the chapel is there is one for another day.

    There was an agreement made by which they would make a move which would be reciprocated by republicans. I seem to remember numerous plaudits being heaped on them at the time for this – surely they are allowed to be p*ssed off that it has been broken – however, immediately moving to replace the offending mural is probably still not the best way forward.

  • Stephen Copeland

    confused on Apr 24, 2006 @ 04:37 PM

    The ugly face of unionism.

  • observer

    kensei
    “Yesterday on the radio, the Republicans Version was: Flags were put up for an Apprentice Boys march. Loyalists stated that the weren’t UDA flags, so it was okay.”

    Surely it all turns on what the detail of the deal was. The deal that I seen reported was that Tricolours would be removed after the UDA mural – no mention of any other issues. Maybe there was an agreement on the wider flying of flags. But if not then republicans seem to be moving the goalposts and demanding more and more…… ironic innit!!!

  • Ziznivy

    In my opinion the salient point is being glossed over here. Who are these people to be making “deals” on behalf of their communities? Where does their mandate come from?

    There is only one councillor who represents a party with paramilitary connections in Ballymena and she is from neither of the wards concerned.

    The fact that scum from either side can muscle their way to having any input in what is displayed in their areas is disgusting.

  • qubol

    Confused – you certainly are.
    Harryville was built over 30 years ago and only became contentious when loyalists in a fit of pety rage decided that if Dunloy Orangemen couldn’t march through Dunloy then Catholics can’t go to Mass in Harryville.

    “What is so offensive about a UDA mural in a protestant town anyway ??”
    well it may be a protestant town but there are several thousand Nationalists/Unionists in the town who take great exception to Murals glorifying the UDA.

    “move the chapel to somewhere it is wanted”
    its quiet ironic, the Church of Our Lady was probably the niciest building in Harryville (before it had to adopt the barriers and fencing etc). Harryville is grim and ugly beyond compare but as ever Loyalists are happy to ruin their neighbourhoods and for what……….

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Given that so many are so knowledgeable about the Loyalists and loyalism, what does it say for anyone who would deliberately antagonise them in this way? ”

    Depends on which version of events you subscribe to, TAFKABO. Do you acknowledge that the Apprentice Boys march, what with their flags, would be an instigation to the Republicans? Why would anyone knowledgeable of the Republicans and Republicism deliberately antagonize them in this way?

    TAFKABO: “Let’s be absolutely clear, I think the Loyalists are ultimately responsible for whatever the Loyalists do, but can we at least admit that republicans have acted in bad faith here and needlessly excacerbated the situation? ”

    No, you don’t — you’re already building an excuse for them. As for bad faith, it depends on whether you wish to count the Apprentice boys as an instigating factor or not. As I said above, wouldn’t it be grand if the local officials to simply take the bull by the horns and not kow-tow to illegal organizations or permit provactive actions? But then I would get some loyalist going on about the “central role in Unionist culture” that these marches and flags hold.

    confused: “What is so offensive about a UDA mural in a protestant town anyway ???. ”

    Oh, I dunno — how about their an illegal paramilitary organizations with ties to drug gangs and the like? Will that do for starters?

  • observer

    ziznivy
    “n my opinion the salient point is being glossed over here. Who are these people to be making “deals” on behalf of their communities? Where does their mandate come from?”

    That may be a fair point – the answer probably is. The people making the deals are probably the same people who have either put up the murals or the flags. I suppose there is a certain logic there that if they have put them up then they are the people who should negotiate to bring them down.

    More often what does happen is that some do-gooders from either side come to a terribly nice agreement about ridding the community of the vestiages of these nasty individuals. They then take them down only for them to be replaced immediately with more of the same from the people who erected them in the first place.

    That makes the do-gooders feel good but achieves precious little in the longer term. The other option may not be terribly nice that it does happen or have to happen. But surely they achieve the same result as the do-gooders, but it usually is more successful in the longer term.

    That all works of course, so long as both sides stick to the deal.

  • observer

    Dread Cthulhu
    “Do you acknowledge that the Apprentice Boys march, what with their flags, would be an instigation to the Republicans? “

    And do you really suggest that republicans in Ballymena thought that there would be no more parades there or no more flags erected? However, they didnt seem to include this in the deal they did regarding the removal of tricolours. It seemed that the deal centred around the mural and a bit of a clean-up around the chapel in Harryville – all of which has happened.

    If the flags erected for the ABOD march weren’t included then they may moan about their poor negotiation but they dont have grounds to go back on their initial deal.

  • confused

    Qubol “Harryville was built over 30 years ago and only became contentious when loyalists in a fit of rage decided that if Dunloy Orangemen couldn’t march through Dunloy then Catholics can’t go to Mass in Harryville”

    You are quite right, the residents of Dunloy denying the orange their right to walk resulted in the Harryville problem being escalted. If due to demographic changes the orange can march then whats good for the goose i say, and personally feel Sectarian GAA matches should also be challenged.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    observer: “And do you really suggest that republicans in Ballymena thought that there would be no more parades there or no more flags erected? However, they didnt seem to include this in the deal they did regarding the removal of tricolours. ”

    Is this an assumption on your part, or were you privy to the negotiations? If the information imparted by kensai and others is accurate, it was enough of a gray area for the Apprentice Boys to inquire of the UDA if it was permissable for the AB to post flags.

    observer: “If the flags erected for the ABOD march weren’t included then they may moan about their poor negotiation but they dont have grounds to go back on their initial deal. ”

    Then should not other nationalists, not privy to the deal, have the right to mount their own tricolours? If we’re going to play “split the fly” over every point, its got to go both ways.

  • slug

    Although its a pity if the new mural does come down ,the reconciliation work of the local Father (Symonds), and of local Presbyterians, will continue.

  • Disappointing. If they’d any sense they’d have taken the moral high ground and done their own community a favour by retaining the Ulster-Scots mural instead of some abhorrent paramilitary one.

    But why let a sense of community pride come between a bigot and an opportunity to goad ‘the enemy’?

  • Brian Boru

    If Republicans have to bring down the Tricolours then the Loyalists should bring down Union Flags, not just murals.

  • TAFKABO

    confused

    As a Unionist I am offended by UDA murals, so god only knows what catholics and nationalsts think of them.Especially people who have had to endure intimidation as they tried to go to their place of worship.

  • The Devil

    Why does the Housing executive not just vest the Chapel flatten it and build much needed houses on it… problem solved.

    The people need housing not superstitious nonsense from the dark ages, flatten the fucker now!

  • elfinto

    It’s ironic that you post under the name ‘The Devil’

  • An Baile Meánach

    I have spoken to an old colleague of mine who lives not too far from these republican flags. It appears that they were indeed removed, but then were replaced in greater number! The tricolour has now been joined by the starry plough.

    I believe the reappearance in particular, after they thought that this nonsense was finished with, has annoyed alot of the people who live in the area, Catholic or Protestant.

  • TAFKABO

    I’ve found more irony in certain people calling themselves Christians to be honest.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “I’ve found more irony in certain people calling themselves Christians to be honest. ”

    Ain’t that always the way… people always wanting *other* folks to act Christian, in some cases even as they’re demonizing someone else.

  • Loftholdingswood

    Well I posted a well argued few points, clicked the button and it has disappeared! Isn’t that always the way? I bet Shakespeare never had this problem.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Loftholdingswood: “Well I posted a well argued few points, clicked the button and it has disappeared! Isn’t that always the way? I bet Shakespeare never had this problem. ”

    Happens… I’ve taken to copying whole posts to the clipboard before hitting “submit,” just in case. I’ve also noted the “submit the word you see below” mechanism can be a little twitchy from time to time.

  • The Devil

    Dread Cthulhu, Loftholdingswood,

    “Well I posted a well argued few points, clicked the button and it has disappeared! Isn’t that always the way? I bet Shakespeare never had this problem”

    There’s nothing wrong with the submit button, it’s the software Slugger uses the new Intelli/software which reads posts as they are being submitted and if they are particularily boring automatically deletes them.

    It is something that has happened most posters on Slugger though I have never experienced it myself, very smart software indeed

  • kensei

    “Is this an assumption on your part, or were you privy to the negotiations? If the information imparted by kensai and others is accurate, it was enough of a gray area for the Apprentice Boys to inquire of the UDA if it was permissable for the AB to post flags.”

    Spirit of the deal and all that. Do you really think they would have agreed if they knew Apprentice Boys flags were going up a few weeks later?

  • Intelligence Insider

    I have no time whatsoever for the UDA or any of their fellow apologists. However, if they have reached an agreement which reduces sectarian tensions in an area in which that was high, agreed upon the removal of a mural celebrating their own organisation in favour of one which instead supports the cultural existince of the majority of people in that area, then that deserves recognition. If the nationalist people have decided to renege upon that agreement then they deserve what happens.

  • elfinto

    With opinions like these, no wonder he got a job with Brit intelligence. C’mon dont be so hard on the UDA, II. They were useful once upon a time.

  • Loftholdingswood

    I try not to be an apologist for anyone least of all an organisation that has such varied views and is currently undergoing a period of consultation and change. I do contribute to their overall analysis via the UPRG and this is, I believe, the way forward. There are progressive elements in all groupings no matter how distasteful you may or may not find them. I prefer to listen and learn, prod (in the nicest sense) and poke and act as a conduit for ‘what’s happening on the streets’. Most importantly is to listen to the youth (or ‘yoof’ if you are with it – I’m not) in working class Loyalist areas and focus on the positive points. It is way too simplistic and sheer folly to castigate with a single swipe the thousands (and I mean thousands) of decent hard working people in the Protestant community that do want to see change, are working toward that end and want to see the end of certain practices within. Things take time. People do change, they just need to see where that change will take them. End of sermon.

    Thedevil, you are probably right – slugger has a secret computer tool that censors my ramblings and consigns them to the bin.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Elfinto,
    They may have been useful, or even ” use fool”, but never, ever, as useful as those within all the different IRA’s! Be it OIRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, all have a majority in their senior command structures who pass on all of importance to someone in the British Intelligence network, be it Special Branch, MI5/6, or FRU.

  • Intelligence Insider

    And, Elfinto, they haven’t gone away you know!

  • elfinto

    Aye Aye,

    Go and write a book about it. Years of experience has told me to believe nothing the British government or its agencies have to say on Ireland.

  • Dave

    It seems that the “loyalists” have again been unable to see the BIG picture (pun intended)

    A “deal” between both communities need never have taken place in the first instance, as all Loyalists Murals should be taken down and replaced with cultural and heritage murals this is what the Unionists community prefer.

    We as unionists should do our bit (no matter how small that may be at times) to bring our communities up to a proper level of normalisation.

    Besides the tricolour was paraded down the Shankill Rd not so long back there didn’t seem to be a problem then. one should always remember that the Tricolour belongs to the people of Republic of Ireland and NOT IRA/SF.

    Maybe those concerned really don’t like to see our cultural and heritage murals as they are indeed the best by far. It would suit hard-line republicans to see Ulster-Scots murals removed and would that in itself not be a “victory” for them?

    Come on lads a little more thought on this one.

  • Sean

    Dave,

    The same way the Union Jack belongs to the British and not Unionists/Loyalists?

    Youse need to all wise up by taking down all flags and not painting wall murals – both loyalists and Republicans.

    Both sides are just an insult to the normal people who want to get on with life.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Fintan,
    No matter what your “years of experience has” (sic) told you, you would be better admitting the truth than denying the obvious.

    Also, you stated ” no wonder he got a job with Brit intelligence”, when did I state that I worked for “Brit intelligence”? Perhaps I work for Sinn Fein, but, then again, be the same thing then!

  • Chris Donnelly

    This is a fairly misleading post. As this more comprehensive article states, it would appear loyalists and republicans both have grounds for complaint over this apparent ‘deal.’

    I think its highly ironic and indicative of unionism’s arrogance that the loyalists would walk away from the tentative arrangement at the first opportunity and threaten the return of some blood-curdling mural after the first spot of difficulty on the horizon. After all, it’s only April; but then, perhaps the thought of abiding by a deal with nationalists as the blood is raised for the six-month long marching season was too much to stomach?

    We know from last Summer that loyalism maintains an active presence in the area and is only too willing to attack catholic homes, businesses and churches on any pretence.

    For my part, I believe that Ballymena would be best served by a no flags policy throughout the town, but it would need to be all inclusive. If loyalists wish to retain the right to erect loyalist flags in predominantly unionist areas, then they should not be surprised when some nationalists/ republicans reciprocate in other parts of the town. It’s not ideal- nor desirable- but hardly unexpected.

  • Chris Donnelly
  • Shuggie McSporran

    observer

    “There was an agreement made…surely they are allowed to be p*ssed off that it has been broken – however, immediately moving to replace the offending mural is probably still not the best way forward.”

    I agree. In the first instance the loyalists should judicially review the decision of the republicans to put the flags back up.

    Senior Counsel should be briefed and the original agreement subjected to the scrutiny of a court of law.

    At first sight it certainly looks like the republicans are responsible for the failure to implement. But the crux of the issue may rest on whether the flying of loyalist flags is covered in the original agreement, and/or if it is reasonable for republicans to maintain that they are so covered.

  • TAFKABO

    For my part, I believe that Ballymena would be best served by a no flags policy throughout the town, but it would need to be all inclusive. If loyalists wish to retain the right to erect loyalist flags in predominantly unionist areas, then they should not be surprised when some nationalists/ republicans reciprocate in other parts of the town. It’s not ideal- nor desirable- but hardly unexpected.

    I think you have a fair point Chris.I know the last thing we need is another quango, but I’d like to see a concerted effort to take down every flag from every lampost, and pass a law that any Mural must abide by strict guidelines, including no overtly militaristic themes.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Chris,

    You don’t really expect people to look at a Daily Ireland article as being comprehensive, or even partially impartial do you?

    Certainly some people from a security POV could look at the editor and ownership as doing an excellent job, but they weren’t asked to be impartial or comprehensive and they certainly aren’t!

  • Chris Donnelly

    A classic case of messenger shooting, II.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Chris,

    Is that not what the Provo’s do?

    Oh no, they don’t shoot the messenger, they shoot the Head of Admin.

    II

  • qubol

    I’m with Chris + TAFKABO – i’d like all flags taken down in Ballymena and elsewhere. The problem is worse in places like Ballymena and Lisburn where Nationalist symbols are ignored at an official level and the only culture permitted is a Unionist/Protestant one. The problem of flags etc needs to be tackled once and for all. It can only be done so when Nationalist flags and symbols are given equal treatment to Unionist sysmbols. We should then come down hard on those wanting to fly their own flags or banners – I don’t believe this situation would be tolerated anywhere else in Europe yet in Ballymena Loyalists erect flags outside the police station!
    And another thing, why are loyalists so insecure in a town like Ballymena that they feel the need to mark out their territory in such an ugly fashion. You can kind of see reason around interfaces and even in Dunclug where some fools want to mark out their territory in an otherwise Unionist town – but those reasons don’t exist in Harryville (except around Our Lady’s)

  • Intelligence Insider

    qubol,

    You are quite right, no other country in Europe would allow such a furore over the flying of a flag. I am sure you would agree with me in stating that this would be easily overcame by banning all flags apart from the Union flag, no UDA flags, no UVF flags, no Ulster flags, no Arab flags, Israeli flags, Irish flags or flags from any other country other than the U.K..

  • TAFKABO

    I think that banning all flags, except the Union flag, and the tricolour would be something worth looking at.
    And before anyone starts in with the legality, I know that the tricolour is not an official flag, but in the spirit of the agreement and good neighbourliness we should accept it as a valid symbol.

    Germany has a succesful law which prohibits the display of Nazi emblems such as the swastika.
    Without invoking Godwins law, I think a similar policy ought to apply to all illegal armed groups.

  • Dave

    FAO Sean

    Dave,

    “The same way the Union Jack belongs to the British and not Unionists/Loyalists?”

    +++Well now sean, I believe that unionists/Loyalists are British and many Catholics would also define themselves as british+++

    “Youse need to all wise up by taking down all flags and not painting wall murals – both loyalists and Republicans.”

    +++ I agree with you on that all Paramilitary flags should be taken down and the national flag of Northern Ireland should be the only flag on display+++

    “Both sides are just an insult to the normal people who want to get on with life.”

    ++here, here!

  • Intelligence Insider

    TAFKABO,

    The flying of the tricolour, in my view, should only be allowed on the occasion of an official visit from the head of state of that country. Likewise with a visit from our own head of state to the Republic of Ireland. No Union flag in the Republic, except with an official engagement, no Tricolour in the U.K. except with an official engagement. Does anyone think that’s unfair?

  • qubol

    II: “I am sure you would agree with me in stating that this would be easily overcame by banning all flags apart from the Union flag”

    No II, did you not read my post? Dave and II seem like the kind of people that give my favourite answer when this debate crops up. “well if you like the Irish flag so much why don’t you move down there” Its that kind of high-brow thinkin that never fails to raise a smile with me, can you not even see how ludicrous that argument is? I really have to ask if these people actually believe what they say or are they just spoutin out the usual lines.

  • Bemused

    I very rarely agree with TAFKABO – but – well said that man. Pity no Unionist political representatives have the balls to put their heads above the parapet on this one.

  • elfinto

    Intelligence Insider,

    Lets just crush a major misinterpretation on your part.

    No matter what your “years of experience has” (sic) told you, you would be better admitting the truth than denying the obvious.

    My years of experience of the perfidy of Albion come from living in Norn Iron. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Also, you stated “ no wonder he got a job with Brit intelligence”, when did I state that I worked for “Brit intelligence”? Perhaps I work for Sinn Fein, but, then again, be the same thing then!

    I always thought you were a mate of Martin (Ingram’s). Certainly you claim to have a lot of highly sensitive information. Ex SB perhaps?

    While there most likely are informers still out there, I will always treat the claims of spooks and provocateurs with a healthy degree of scepticism.

  • Intelligence Insider

    qubol,
    It’s less ludicrous than asking people in the United Kingdom to stop flying the flag of their own country.

    fintan,
    I know of Martin (Ingram) [as I’m sure many do!]but have never claimed to know him personally, where have I claimed “to have a lot of highly sensitive information”???

    Maybe you are one of my informants? Just ring me on the usual number Fintan, the money is in the bank!

    LMFAO!

  • Sean

    Dave!!

    You really think the majority of British people (outside the North) would agree with the use of “their” Union Jack during parades in places like Garvagahy or on loyalist wall murals that promote terrorism? The only reason why we don’t hear their reaction is that either they dont give a rat arse or they simply just don’t know how the exactly the Union Jack is used in a daily manner in the North. I for one would be a highly disappointed Brit the same way I am a disappointed Irish man for the way our flag is used.

    Dave I disagree with the use of the National flag to be used, it wouldn’t solve the problem. We should actually just use a simple plain white flag and not to have a national anthem. Many people in the North don’t deserve to have a nationality so the solution? Strip them from every right to their own identity. Maybe, just maybe if people started to learn on how to work things out with each other then a splash of colour could be added to the flag which could take thousands of years.

    As for the stupid idiot who stated “”well if you like the Irish flag so much why don’t you move down there” your comments is nothing but hate and you should really look at like this “if you like the British flag so much why no feck off back to England, we were here first.”

  • Intelligence Insider

    Ps Fintan,

    Claiming that the Butcher of the Bogside, the man behind the Maskey, the DI editor, Fanny Mo, Uncle Tom and Papa Doc are spies isn’t anything new!

  • Martin

    I guess what loyalists might do is always more important than what republicans are doing.

    selling drugs verses blackmarket diesel and fags—there is a bit of a diference

  • Intelligence Insider

    Sean,

    British people (outside the North)????

    North of England, Scotland, Wales????

    Or are you, at last, admitting that the Northern Irish people are British?

  • elfinto

    Intelligence Insider,

    “where have I claimed “to have a lot of highly sensitive information”???”

    You claimed in a previous post that the majority of the leadership of four different republican organisations were spies. So you are now admitting it was bluster. I thought so.

    elfinto (to you)

  • Intelligence Insider

    Martin,

    Drugs verses (sic) blackmarket diesel and fags????

    If you don’t know that the all the IRA’s are involved in drug dealing you are even less intelligent than your spelling suggests!

    I’d say FARC up except you might not be able to gather I am inferring to a certain organisations connection with the biggest supplier of heroin in the world!

  • elfinto

    II,

    Save your trolling for somewhere else.

  • elfinto

    Intelligence Outsider,

    Colombia, a country well known for its heroin production. I’ve heard it all now!

    The British army are currently chasing poppies (and shadows) in Afghanistan. Who knows, in future the RBL might be operating a needle exchange.

  • Sean

    Intelligence Insider

    “North of England, Scotland, Wales????” – No the Amazon Jungle!

    “Or are you, at last, admitting that the Northern Irish people are British?”

    What do you mean at last? I never denied Northerners are British or Irish. What I did say is that Bigots have no right to either flag, need a doodle drawn to explain?

  • Intelligence Insider

    Fintan,

    I’ll repeat it;

    “They may have been useful, or even “ use fool”, but never, ever, as useful as those within all the different IRA’s! Be it OIRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, all have a majority in their senior command structures who pass on all of importance to someone in the British Intelligence network, be it Special Branch, MI5/6, or FRU.”

    Now, Fintan, are you honestly trying to tell me that that is sensitive information???? Thats pretty well known amongst all the players!

    You will not be able to name who I work for as you haven’t heard of them!(Unless of course you’re one of us??)

  • Intelligence Insider

    Elfinto,
    What was sensitive about that??? It’s well known!

  • TAFKABO

    selling drugs verses blackmarket diesel and fags—there is a bit of a diference

    Yes of course there is.
    Illegal fuel smuggling is depriving the economy of much needed funds for schools and hospitals, the damage being wreaked on the local enviroment is appalling,and the increased risk of ill health and disease from all those dodgy cigarrettes should in no way be compared to the odd ounce of blow and a few Es.

    ( only joking)

    I can’t believe someone would be so f*ckin stupid as to play moral relativism with these things

  • Martin

    I do know that the IRA has never been involved in drug sales and I do believe that this has been publicly attested to in the past by some of your beloved Westminster people along with Mc Dowell in the south—Its late ,and my eyes are a bit sore but if it makes you feel better Ill spell it this way—Versus–makes all the difference doesnt it.

    P.s by the way I was only doing this to make a Unionist out there who is also a closet Loyalist sympathiser rise to the bait—-instead you have

  • elfinto

    IO,

    You work for The Troll Foundation

  • Martin

    Lads,did anyone see our Bertie on here lately

  • Intelligence Insider

    Martin,

    “I do know that the IRA has never been involved in drug sales”

    Gerry ,

    “I am not, and never have been, a member of the IRA.”

    Martin,

    you are either admitting membership of a proscribed organisation (surely against the Green Book??) or you are extremely stupid!

    Fintan,

    Thank you for conceding.

  • martin

    II
    you people get so hung up on this Green book,you said it in a way that must mean that I should be impressed that you know about it.

    And why would I have to be a member of the PIRA to know that they dont deal drugs are you trying to tell us that you are a member of it because you have read this green book—

    P.s the one I read was photocopied so I would have to obey the white book if I was or ever had been,which I am not,a member of that club

  • Martin

    II,
    if you are also posting somewhere else under ”Smiffy” you should stick with that name Intelligence doesnt go with you—smiffy is the only male bitch out there that makes a fuss about spelling he like you is also unbelievably stupid

  • Conor Gillespie

    “The flying of the tricolour, in my view, should only be allowed on the occasion of an official visit from the head of state of that country. Likewise with a visit from our own head of state to the Republic of Ireland. No Union flag in the Republic, except with an official engagement, no Tricolour in the U.K. except with an official engagement. Does anyone think that’s unfair?”

    This of course, is garbage. The Deli down the road from me flies an Italian tricolour and if you go to London you’ll probably see quite a few “Foreign Flags” waving. The flying of an Irish flag is an expression of cultural identity. The painting of a pro-terrorist mural (whether loyalist or republican) is an expression of exactly that. terrorism. I am not offended when I see someone flying a union jack (accept of course when it is painted as the backdrop of a UDA mural.) I don’t personally feel that this was a fair deal in the first place: You take down your cultural symbol and we’ll replace our terrorist symbol with a cultural one. If we find that You’ve left up your cultural symbol we’ll replace our cultural symbol with a terrorist one. That said I recognize that both flags have taken on ulterior meanings for the people of northern Ireland. My answer to that is: get over it. The majority of us can live beside each other’s cultures and its time for the rest of you to step out of you IRA/UDA mentalities and move forward. I completely agree with TAFKABO on the passing of strict guidelines regarding community murals. The reason that nationalists feel intimidated by the Union jack and vice versa is because we instantly associate these flags with the far more aggressive forms of expressions in which we have often seen them.

  • Rafa Benitez

    “personally feel Sectarian GAA matches should also be challenged.”
    Posted by confused on Apr 24, 2006 @ 05:05 PM

    Then maybe you should stop having GAA matches in your living room or out on your street and have them in a specially designated place for hosting such events, called a football pitch. these ‘football pitches’ are ideal, and unlike being made a prisoner in your own home as a loud, unwelcome troupe goose-step through, matches can occur causing little or no offence, except to those who go out of their way to take offence.
    No need to thank me for this advice, consider it a neighbourly gesture.

    All this talk about flags. Such glorified territorial p!ssings, a big thing in NI and no-where else. Careful lads that you are not facing the wind when you take one, your kids will be born with webbed feet otherwise.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Martin,

    Global Intelligence report from 19th Feb 2005..

    Britain’s security services – MI5 and MI6 – have established that the Stg£2 million found in Cork last week is linked to worldwide drug smuggling by Colombia’s drug barons and the Russian Mafia.
    The security services say it is significant that of the Stg£2 million seized in Cork, only Stg£65,000 was in Northern Ireland banknotes – possibly part of the proceeds from the Stg£26 million Northern Bank robbery in Belfast before Christmas.
    When the Cork seizure was made by the Irish Garda, MI5 agents were in the port city. For weeks they had been sharing intelligence with the Irish Criminal Assets Bureau and the country’s National Bureau of Fraud Investigation.
    While the IRA also remain the prime suspect for the Northern Bank robbery – the largest ever haul in Britain – the security services have now identified the IRA’s role as money launderer for the drug runners.
    “The IRA has played an increasingly important role in laundering drug profits from Britain”, confirmed an intelligence source in London.
    Britain has become a prime target for drugs smuggled from Eastern Europe and Colombia through Spain.
    MI6 agents who have travelled to Colombia are also convinced that “in return for services rendered”, the Colombia drug barons organised the escape of the three IRA members known as the Colombia Three. The trio had each been sentenced to 17 years in a high-security Colombia jail for terrorist activities in the country. Out on bail, they escaped hours before they could be taken to prison.
    Yesterday, a senior officer with Colombia’s DAS confirmed the presence of MI6 agents.
    “We are helping them all we can to establish how the drug barons helped the trio to escape”, he said.
    MI6 is also working closely with Spanish intelligence to establish the electronic trail that the IRA uses to shift huge amounts of money around the world.
    Stops along the trail include banks in Madrid, Gibraltar and the Cayman Islands. Another trail moves the money through banks in the Balkans, South Africa and into Asia.
    The money found in Cork is thought to have derived from Britain – possibly hand couriered over by the IRA to the port city. From there it would have been wired out to IRA controlled accounts around the world.
    Last month, MI6 learned from El Salvador’s intelligence service that substantial sums of money originating from a European bank – where IRA fund-raising money is channelled – had been briefly deposited in the country’s capital, San Salvador. It was then moved to a bank in Singapore.
    In a separate move, the FBI are also investigating bank accounts in the United States that could be IRA-linked through its substantial fund-raising activities. Names of the banks are being kept secret by the FBI “for ongoing operational reasons”.
    Another investigation into IRA money-laundering is being run by Mexico’s intelligence agency, CISEN.
    Britain’s investigation into the IRA activities is being run from the Terrorist Attack Assessment Centre (TAAC) overlooking London’s River Thames. Its state-of-the-art computers help its analysts to track information from around the world.
    TAAC is directly linked to the CIA and FBI.

    ends

  • Dr Strangelove

    Good to see Intelligence Insider is adept at Active Measures.

  • elfinto

    He’ll be telling us that Saddam Hussein had WMD next.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Elfinto,
    Next you’ll be telling us that sinn fein has nothing to do with the ira!

  • Intelligence Insider

    Dr Strangelove,

    I hope you don’t mean Active Measures such as the provo’s claiming that the bomb in Enniskillen was set off by the British Army?

    Rememember that?

  • Mike

    not one poster has contemplated the possibility that the mass goers at harryville and the flag flyers up the road are not the same people and therefore the deal was between non harryville mass going flag flyers and loyalists….cynical camera baloney…no benefit to harryville chapel any which way…but hey don’t let stop the mud slinging!

  • qubol

    Mike, I don’t think anyone considered that cos its pretty nonsense hypothesis. I would be fairly certain that our flag fyers in Dunclug are not mass-goers of any discription and I believe (although open to correction) that amongst the congregation at Harryville is Nula O’Loan, our police ombudsman, cant see her getting up too many lampposts.

  • Intelligence Insider

    qubol,

    I hope that O’Loans involvement means that she will declare an interest if there is any involvement by the Ombudsman.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Ballymena is geographically in the middle of two separate and quite autonomous UDA brigade areas-North-Antrim Londonderry, which stretches from the City of Londonderry to North Ballymena, and South-East Antrim, where Harryville is situated and the rest of South Ballymena, encompassing towns such as Carrickfergus, Larne, Glengormley and parts of Newtownabbey, including Monkstown and Rathcoole.
    The Ulster-Scots Society were in dialogue with the local UDA, the South-East Antrim Brigade as far as I am aware. This is not my local Brigade, as I live in East Londonderry, but I still know a little about the “deal”. As far as I am aware the Ulster-Scots Society and the UDA came to an agreement that the Ulster Defence Association mural in question would be removed and replaced with a mural celebrating the Ulster-Scots tradition. However, this was only agreed on the condition that Ballymena republicans would remove the offensive and provocative tricolours in the local area. Republicans reneged and failed to deliver so who exactly is at fault for this? I have a message for the nationalist posters on Slugger:
    Open your eyes instead of posting unsubstantiated bile. Ballymena republicans had the chance to get rid of a mural they despise in return for the removal of a few flags…their intransigence has cost them this opportunity.