Unionists need to let bygones be just that

Mick Hall has been doing some thinking- and writing- about unionist posters to this site who contributed to the thread regarding the death of Sinn Fein’s Siobhan O’Hanlon. He argues that, in their bitter and mean-spirited manner, the contributions provide “yet another example of the lack of constructive leadership within the Unionist community since the DUP became the leading unionist party.”

  • He may have a point (then again he may not) but to compare unionist feelings towards an IRA “volunteer” to the democratically elected leader of modern-day Germany is taking the piss. If Helmut Kohl had been a Nazi soldier partaking in the invasion and oppression of half of Europe then there may be a comparison to be made, but AFAIK (correct me if I’m wrong) this is not the case.

  • missfitz

    I think Mick Hall is right about allowing old grudges fade.

    I think Mick Hall might be asking a little too much too quickly.

    The time of mutual respect and understanding has not yet arrived.

  • elfinto

    I wasn’t aware that the late Ms O’Hanlon had taken part in the oppression of half of Europe.

    It seems that Mick’s point about the bitter and mean-spirited repsonse of some unionists to her death is proven once again.

  • Elfinto, I think you know fine rightly that’s not what I was talking about.

    If you even read the linked article it asks if Helmut Kohl should be greeted with disdain and disrespect when he travels to the UK, France or Holland. Such a comparison is erroneous, however, given that Herr Kohl had never taken part in or supported violent actions (once again: to my knowledge) against these peoples.

    I am not saying that following her death it is appropriate time to gloat as he seems to be suggesting some Unionists did (I don’t think I read the post in question), however if Mick Hall wanted to make a comparison to WW2 a more valid one may have been that of a Nazi soldier than a man who took office some 50 years after the events in question, would it not?

  • TAFKABO

    When nationalists and republicans stop throwing the last three hundred years in my face, I’ll stop throwing the last thirty back at them.
    I was told on this site less than forty eight hours ago that Unionists are basically still on probabtion because of the plantations.
    Everything we say and do is judged by the tone that was set then..

    As for the issue of Siobhan O’Hanlons death, I think people were confused as to why there was a thread to begin with.
    Perhaps if it had been made clear that it was for the express purposes of offering condolences, then others would not have treated it as a normal discussion.
    Who knows, if republicans hadn’t set the tone by not laughing at the recent murder of Dennis Donaldson, others might be more willing to listen to them preach about solemnity in the face of death?

  • Pete Baker

    While I didn’t contribute to the thread in question, because I felt, like Mick, that it was enough to mark her death, it was perfectly valid to point to her conviction for possession of explosives as evidence of a greater involvement in the problem here than the Sinn Féin press release suggested – regardless of what Mick Hall thinks about that.

    Is that “bitter and mean-spirited”?

    No, it’s just a case of not glossing over the facts.. and that lack of gloss has more significance to what happens next than ignoring the reality of what has already happened here.

  • John

    Send not to know for whom the bell tolls

  • Shuggie McSporran

    TAFKABO

    “When nationalists and republicans stop throwing the last three hundred years in my face, I’ll stop throwing the last thirty back at them.”

    For you to achieve the correct balance you should be throwing 60% of the last 30 years at nationalists and republicans and accepting 40% from them.

    I don’t know how you would achieve that balance. Possibly you could you could add an extra 20% to each of your posts.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    I saw that earlier. I think Mick has miscalculated the degree to which Unionists were involved in that thread. I counted three. They were critical (mostly of me) but by no means amongst the worst behaved.

    I personally think it is sad that people cannot bring themselves to be civil at such dreadful times.

    But if people are going to sling mud around I would ask that the nasty response of some Republicans to Gerry Fitt’s death also be taken into account.

  • Joe

    Mick’s main theme is spot on.
    If we don’t move forward, there is no hope.
    The bell will toll for all of us.

  • mbeki

    Beano
    Perhaps Helmut Kohl wasn’t the greatest comparison.
    Should white South Africans spit on Nelson Mandela or speak ill of him when he dies?

  • Brian Boru

    I think British rule is ultimately the root cause of all the recriminations on all sides. We don’t recriminate among ourselves between Catholics and Protestants in the South. The eventual ending of partition by consent will (if it happens) act as a healer I believe. One the cancer of the Union is removed, the patient will begin to recover.

  • Joe

    Brian Boru
    It’s more like a running sore than cancer.
    A painful sore that the patient(s) keep picking at.

  • Intelligence Insider

    In the same journal Mick Hall’s article appears in, it’s funny that another piece (not by Mick) is entitled “Share no tears for the Donaldson family” !!!

    Nationalist Hypocrite’s!

  • Intelligence Insider

    Whoops, should read “Shed no tears…..

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “When nationalists and republicans stop throwing the last three hundred years in my face, I’ll stop throwing the last thirty back at them.”

    Talk to the fella in the bowlers and sashes. The only reason it gets tossed in your face is its still a matter of interest that haunts every years.

    TAFKABO: “I was told on this site less than forty eight hours ago that Unionists are basically still on probabtion because of the plantations. ”

    No, you were told that so long as other ancient rememberences were trotted out year after year, than contemperanous events to those celebrated were fair game. If have to hear about the Boyne, the Billy Boys and Easter 1916, which frankly puts my teeth on edge, you have to hear about the plantations and the rest of the ugly underbelly of Ulster’s history.

    TAFKABO: “Everything we say and do is judged by the tone that was set then…”

    What, all should be forgiven and forgotten because Big Ian has taken it down a notch? When odes ot the fascist Billy Boys are still chanted and the Boyne and King Billy commemorated with bands bearing the banners in rememberance Unionist murderers? Reconciliation is a two way street, TAFKABO, and most folks don’t believe in unequal contracts. If I pick the worst examples, then mayhaps I’m a wee bit cynical, something I will grudgingly attribute to age. Can you think of a rational reason that the Loyalist paramilitary gangs shouldn’t disarm or, failing that, be disarmed?

    TAFKABO: “Who knows, if republicans hadn’t set the tone by not laughing at the recent murder of Dennis Donaldson, others might be more willing to listen to them preach about solemnity in the face of death?”

    I heard a little bi-partisan sniggering, but I attributed that to the mad scramble by most concerned parties to throw the blame on the other side. Besides, there was no shortage of Unionist gloating, so how about we call it a push? To paraphrase something someone said previously, must we make this personal across multiple threads?

  • TAFKABO

    No, you were told that so long as other ancient rememberences were trotted out year after year, than contemperanous events to those celebrated were fair game. If have to hear about the Boyne, the Billy Boys and Easter 1916, which frankly puts my teeth on edge, you have to hear about the plantations and the rest of the ugly underbelly of Ulster’s history.

    OK, but since this thread is about a Republican asking us to let bygones be bygones, I feel it’s fair to expect that since Republicans still think they can let bygones be bygones and commemorate their history, then surely unionists ought to be able to commemorate their history as well?

    What, all should be forgiven and forgotten because Big Ian has taken it down a notch? When odes ot the fascist Billy Boys are still chanted and the Boyne and King Billy commemorated with bands bearing the banners in rememberance Unionist murderers? Reconciliation is a two way street,

    Hang on a minute, this is about Repubican saying that we ought toforget the past, but you are saying that regardless of Ians present stance you aren’t prepared to let bygones be bygones.
    That’s fine, and that’s your choice, but why don’t you address these points to the originator of the thread?

    TAFKABO, and most folks don’t believe in unequal contracts. If I pick the worst examples, then mayhaps I’m a wee bit cynical, something I will grudgingly attribute to age. Can you think of a rational reason that the Loyalist paramilitary gangs shouldn’t disarm or, failing that, be disarmed?

    No I can’t, but then I’ve never been one to ever offer support to the loyalists, but here’s the rub.You’re bringing the lowest Loyalist common demoninator into this discussion as a reason why you aren’t going to let things go.
    Well take a look at todays headlines with Dissident republicans (you know, the ones you all seem to pretend have nothing to do with the nationalist community)and tell me that I should forget everything.
    Again, address these points to the thread starter, not me.

    TAFKABO: “Who knows, if republicans hadn’t set the tone by not laughing at the recent murder of Dennis Donaldson, others might be more willing to listen to them preach about solemnity in the face of death?”

    I heard a little bi-partisan sniggering, but I attributed that to the mad scramble by most concerned parties to throw the blame on the other side. Besides, there was no shortage of Unionist gloating, so how about we call it a push?

    Yeah, but back to the point, it’s Republicans who are saying forget everything, so it’s absolutely relevant to mention republican reaction to that murder.
    If Unionists started this thread, you might have a point, they didn’t.

    To paraphrase something someone said previously, must we make this personal across multiple threads?

    You’ve lost me there.

  • Brian Boru

    Maybe we are not being entirely realistic to expect the Unionists to just wake up one morning and say “I forgive everything that has happened only a few years ago.”. After all yes it is true that after independence we down here had an horrendous relationship with Britain for a very long time because there was a lot of bitterness about things that happened in the War of Independence, and memories of the Famine, Cromwell, land confiscations and Penal Laws against Catholics. So from an emotional point of view I sortof guess I can see part of where the Unionists are coming from when they find it very difficult to let bygones be bygones.

    However, another parallel with British-Irish relations is also important to note. In practice, whatever the rhetoric, the 2 govts had to deal with each other because of the importance of trade between the 2 countries, fighting terrorism, organised-crime etc. I would hope then that Unionism will approach North-South co-operation and internal cross-community co-operation in that context i.e. self-interest. You don’t have to like someone to co-operate.

  • ingram

    Hi,

    The Blanket piece by Mick Hall was very poorly argued and lacked any merrit.

    I paid my respect at Siobhan`s death on the topic raised by Mick on this board, it was a genuine post designed to pass on my condolences.I felt no need to remind others of her recent past BUT would defend others who took the alternative position.

    I agree with Pete Baker and it was entirely proper to remind people of her past which was a murderous one,that is what Boards like this are for!!! to inform and debate the substance of the past and arrive somewhere near the truth.

    Marty

  • “Maybe we are not being entirely realistic to expect the Unionists to just wake up one morning and say “I forgive everything that has happened only a few years ago”

    This unwillingness to forget and forgive is not solely a Unionist problem. Rather an obvious statement but perhaps it needs emphasising here again.

    When Paisley Sr finally shuffles off to meet his maker,what kind of reaction will we get from nationalists/republicans? A sad shake of the collective heads and a “Ah, he was an oul rogue, but may he go in peace”? I somehow doubt it.

  • fair_deal

    Narrative matters. Why should Unionists participate/help their political opponents sanitise their past?

  • fair_deal

    “When Willy Brandt was greeted in a friendly fashion in Poland in December 1970, should the Poles have spit upon him? ”

    Willy Brandyt was involved in anti-Nazi groups and actually fought with the Norwegian army against the Germans. The Nazis stripped him of his German citizenship.

    “The same when the German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, who had served in the German army during WW2”

    Err he was 15 at the end of the war. As he was a member of the Hitler Youth (compulsory to join) he was conscripted into the army in the final weeks and did not engage in any fighting.

    Poor analogies Mick

  • Mick Hall’s article is missing the point. After reading the thread started for Ms. Hanlon, the main points that were raised (and apparently censored to various degrees by the Slugger Admin) were:

    Why was the thread raised for Ms. Hanlon, when she was a peripheral figure at best to the Peace Process, virtually unknown outside Republican circles?

    The main reason anyone was aware of her outside the Republican Movement (RM) was because of her terrorist convictions. Obviously, this fact would be raised in the original thread. The tension occurred in the thread because those sympathetic to the RM were unwilling to allow this to be mentioned, as it did not fit their spin of the wonderful, caring & sharing organisation that Sinn Fein now spins itself as.

    The central theme of Mick Hall’s post was forgiveness, and how this should be shown to Ms. Hanlon’s friends and family. While I do feel some (little) sympathy for her family, I feel nothing but contempt for Ms. Hanlon herself. As someone who has worked as part of a terrorist movement, PIRA-Sinn Fein, she helped bring misery to many families in NI; she and other unreformed terrorists do not deserve anyone’s forgiveness. Forgiveness in Christian terms is something that comes with repentance – when did Ms. Hanlon or the
    RM ask for forgiveness from their victims? This article comes across as another stick to beat the Unionist contributors on Slugger with.

    I am a Christian, of the Protestant tradition, of no fixed allegiance to any party – I am definitely not a DUP supporter (more likely to vote SDLP in fact). If there was a United Ireland tomorrow, the only thing I would be worried about would be my new tax rate. If I am not prepared to forgive the terrorists who blighted this country for the last 30+ years, whether Loyalist or Republican, does Mick Hall, or the Slugger Admin team, think that mainstream Unionists are going to fall over themselves to do so? Just because forgiveness would suit the political aspirations of the RM (and the current love-in on Slugger for the RM), it doesn’t mean that anyone, Unionist or otherwise, will automatically confer it upon them.

  • elfinto

    Come on Martin Ingram. You are being disingenuous. You made a comment about ‘feeling you had grown up with’ the deceased. Naturally, I took this to mean that her sister is an agent of influence.

    The article which recently appeared on the Blanket entitled ‘Spare no tears for Donaldson’s family’ was a particularly spiteful and unnecessary piece.

    I note that this weeks edition of The Blanket carries Easter statements from the leadership of Oglaigh na h-Eireann, a.k.a. the ‘Real’ IRA and from their US support group the Irish Freedom Committee. Is Anthony McIntyre aligning himself with this militarist faction?

  • Fraggle

    Magic Andy, I’m impressed by your altruism, preferring the higher UK taxes to the lower ones of the Irish republic.

  • Henry94

    I had a glance back over the threads on the deaths of Mo Mowlam, Ted Heath. Other than the question of their importance there was similar critical comments about their records and comments critical of such comments.

    It will be hard to find a consensus. Some will not speak ill of the dead and some find that to be a hypocritical position. And for others of course the position depends on who we are talking about.

    My only point would be that respect for the families of the deceased should be the primary consideration in any comments in the days following a death.

  • slug

    Key point: Hanlon was a republican terrorist.

    I therefore have only the deepest contempt for her.

  • Bilbo

    “Magic Andy, I’m impressed by your altruism, preferring the higher UK taxes to the lower ones of the Irish republic. ”

    erm, what?!?

    Alcohol and Tobacco consumer prices are higher in Ireland than the EU average, 12% more expensive than the UK. Ireland is also the most expensive country in the eurozone for non-alcoholic drinks.

    Eating out is also more expensive in Ireland, electricity is more expensive, housing is more expensive and they have to pay for health care. So in what way exactly is living in Ireland cheaper than the UK?!

  • smcgiff

    ‘When nationalists and republicans stop throwing the last three hundred years in my face, I’ll stop throwing the last thirty back at them.
    I was told on this site less than forty eight hours ago that Unionists are basically still on probabtion because of the plantations.’

    You should be glad we’ve got over the whole Strongbow affair!!! :¬)

  • smcgiff

    ‘and they have to pay for health care’

    Who has to pay for health care?!?

  • slug

    I would have the same contempt for loyalist terrorists as I have for Hanlon. The more I learn about her the less I like. A terrorist who played her part in the murder and terror was the IRAs deeply sectarian campaign. I may try to forgive but I must never forget the suffering and the price paid by those who were the victims.

  • smcgiff (non smoker/only very occasional imbiber)

    ‘Alcohol and Tobacco consumer prices are higher in Ireland than the EU average,’

    And so they should be, and they should add another 100% while they’re at it.

  • Keith M

    There’s a more fundamental point at play here which goes beyond the petty playground squalbbing of which Mick Hall’s article is a perfect example. The question is “are people due more respect because they die, than they get if they remain alive?”

    There’s seeems to be any overly precious mentality that has become pervasive in recent times (far beyond Slugger) that denies the right of people to “fair comment” once a person dies.

    I think that this is highly regretable. I think it’s interesting to hear what people have to say and get an honest (albeit obviously subjective) reaction to a life’s work at the time of their passing.

    Time and circumstances can change that appraisal, so it is good to hear reactions (of all hues) at they happen.

  • Occasional Commentator

    Fraggle said:
    Magic Andy, I’m impressed by your altruism, preferring the higher UK taxes to the lower ones of the Irish republic.

    Who’s to say that Magic Andy is altruistic in preferring high taxes? Perhaps he’s high up in the civil service and therefore benefits from high taxes? Although I suppose it’s more likely that he, like many people, doesn’t realise that the Republic has low taxes and a very strong economy nowadays.

  • Apologies, Fraggle, Bilbo & Occasional Commentator. I wasn’t clear enough in what I was saying regarding taxes.

    Fraggle is quite right to point out that Irish taxes are lower than those in the UK, and that the economy is generally healthier than that of the UK ,and definitely much healthier than the sclerotic NI economy. (Though Bilbo rightly points out that the quality of living has actually declined for many Irish people as they have been left behind by the ‘Tiger’ economy.) However, the point I was trying to make was that on unifying North and South, the Irish government would be taking on a huge financial committment, i.e. making up for the £5 Billion annual subsidy that Northern Ireland currently recieves from the UK. There would also be the associated additional costs of unification – security (due to any loyalist backlash – I actually think is would be much less than commonly supposed), integrating the North/South infrastructure, etc. I am no economist, so please point out any mistakes in my logic, but surely such a huge financial burden, even on the healthy economy found south of the border, would have to result in a tax rise to pay for it? My point was, taxes may be lower now – but would this continue to be the case on unification?

    Occasional Commentator, sadly, no, I am not a highly paid civil servant. Instead, I have to work for a living…

  • Yokel

    Yeah let bygones be bygones, lets let the past drop..and as part of that no more inquiries, let stop the Bloody Sunday business, Rosemary Nelson, Raymond McCord, Finucane the lot, lets just drop them all because,lets just let bygones be bygones eh.

    Eerone happy with that or are they about to say ‘no no, thats different’ I can’t wait….

  • Busty Brenda

    I feel it is wrong of Mick hall to take the debate from this forum and criticise it on another forum which has no comment section to facilitate the right of reply. it is disingenious if not down right underhand to debate with people and then go somewhere else and criticise them in an unfair and in my opinion biased manner.

    I did not get involved in the thread because I to felt like mick that it was enough to mark her passing. But Ms O’Hanlon is not the first nor will she be the last person from either tradition to suffer the fate of cancer and leave behind a young family. My condonselces to them. BUT to defend her past by refverence to her passing and criticise others with whom you are involved with in debate on a daily basis is underhand and downright deceitful.

    Sorry for playing the man but it’s my honest opinion. In my opinion Mick Hall is playing the men in an underhand way in another forum so I asked to be excused on those grounds.

  • slug

    Excellent point Yokel.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Terminal cancer didn’t stop Siobhan’s cronies from torturing and murdering Caroline Moreland.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “OK, but since this thread is about a Republican asking us to let bygones be bygones, I feel it’s fair to expect that since Republicans still think they can let bygones be bygones and commemorate their history, then surely unionists ought to be able to commemorate their history as well? ”

    Ah, but I am responding to you for your misrepresentation of my statements elsewhere.

    As for bygones, I think some ought to be made — but as I have said before, some folks just won’t let go. A friend of mine has a t-shirt — says “Heritage, not hate,” over a Confederate “Stars and Bars” flag. What is heritage and what is hate is all a matter of which side of the ox’s horns you happen to be on…

    TAFKABO: “No I can’t, but then I’ve never been one to ever offer support to the loyalists, but here’s the rub.You’re bringing the lowest Loyalist common demoninator into this discussion as a reason why you aren’t going to let things go. ”

    Maybe its because that is the image of Unionism / Loyalism / Ulster Protestantism that is, frankly, unescapable. I open nearly any Irish newspaper, that is what I will find… I turn on the BBC world service, I am treated to the Billy Boy mess… I turn on the television, only to be rewarded with the bowler and sash set, whinging that the Catholics of this neighborhood or that don’t want their travelling love show to march down the streets to celebrate Bonny Prince Billy’s bunions or some such nonsense. The reason I bring up the LCD is that because it is low, it is common and it is, alas, dominant.

    TAFKABO: “Well take a look at todays headlines with Dissident republicans (you know, the ones you all seem to pretend have nothing to do with the nationalist community)and tell me that I should forget everything. ”

    A shaky comparison at best, spurious at worst. The dissidents are the disowned — the dead-enders, stuck on stupid who don’t understand that the time for bombs has passed. Dissident Republicans are *not* the lowest common denominator in the Nationalist community.

    TAFKABO: “Again, address these points to the thread starter, not me. ”

    What, and let you put words in my mouth? Doesn’t work that way — you want a straw-man, you can go build one of your own. You are not going to misrepresent me and not have me say “boo” about it.

  • Interesting point SRR. Was the identity ever revealed of the ‘senior SF figure’ who allegedly ordered the murder of that ill young mother when they presumably knew the IRA was about to go on ceasefire? At least Ms. O’Hanlon had a dignified death- not found in some ditch in Fermanagh with a bullet in her head like Ms. Moreland. It may have been over a decade ago, but it doesn’t make it any more acceptable. I wonder would SF be as sympathetic to the plight of the Moreland family- their grief is just as real, but their loved-one wasn’t even allowed to die naturally.

  • Jo

    A well known extreme Unionist commentator recently suffered a personal loss following many months of pouring bitterness, contempt, hatred and scorn on relatives of murder victims such as Peter McBride, the Bloody Sunday families and Rosemary Nelson.

    He has recently sought condolences on his loss.

    It goes around, guys, it goes around.

  • ingram

    Elfinto,

    Quote”Come on Martin Ingram. You are being disingenuous. You made a comment about ‘feeling you had grown up with’ the deceased. Naturally, I took this to mean that her sister is an agent of influence.

    Sorry mate but I think you have missed the point. My formative years 20/30 was in the North so I grew up knowing the Republican side of Siobhan. I made no reference to her sister although I do admire her work.

    On a side issue. For once I though Danny Boy wrote a good interesting piece about Siobhan, a very warm and heartfelt tribute.

    Siobhan was a rare breed. A genuine Republican. RIP.

    Martin

  • CS Parnell

    Let’s cut to the chase. When Papa Paisley dies (as surely he must, we all do) will those of us on the Nationalist side of the house be quiet and respectful? Perhaps we should be, but mine will be a pint.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    CS PARNELL: “When Papa Paisley dies (as surely he must, we all do) will those of us on the Nationalist side of the house be quiet and respectful?”

    We ought, if only for matters of enlighten self-interest. Besides, what’s to be gained by dancing in the streets singing “Ding, dong, the witch is dead?” It childish, its puerile and is a discredit to the community.

    CS PARNELL: “Perhaps we should be, but mine will be a pint.”

    Nothing wrong with a pint. Drip a touch on the floor, drink it down, keep the secrets of your heart of hearts and thank god it was he and na’ you what got planted.

    Remember: Life’s hard, then you die, then they throw dirt in your face, then the worms eat you…

    But you can still be thankful it happens in that order, leastwise most of the time.

  • TL

    Sure it is nice to be respectful of the dead, but an intellectual debate can’t always stop for decorum. I appreciate Mick’s opinion and his work. However, the remarks made here were with regards to if she merited mention on Slugger and then comments on her legacy. A legacy she created with her actions. We weren’t at a sit down with her family, or suggesting that people call, write or otherwise communicate their ill feelings to them or those who loved her. Slugger’s strength is built on the diversity of those who comment and the honest opinions they bring to the table. It might not have felt good to those who liked/loved Siobhan, but it was truth as the contributors saw it…and learning that is why we are here.

  • Jo

    I think when IP goes that even his sworn enemies would feel that some colour had drained from this place. However, the colour red might have been seen less often had he not been the man he was.

  • Loftholdingswood

    I was at a funeral once ( in England) and the Minister deviated from the normal script that tends to take place and proceeded to tell all those assembled that the person being remembered, celebrated and (on this occasion) cremated was a complex character. Prone to violence, untruthfulness and other complexities of the human spirit yet ultimately loyal, heartfelt to friends and loving to those he truly appreciated. To truly understand the person we have to accept the whole of their lives and not cherry pick the parts that we admire whilst ignoring the bits that unnerve us. And so on. Those that carp at criticism of this particular lady and some of her actions in her long life span fail to see the whole and just cling on to their own belief system.

    Dancing on the graves on the recently deceased is a pointless exercise. The lady was obviously loved. She was also capable of hurting others and was as self serving as we all can be. Let those that wish to mourn her do so. Those that wish to point out her failings are also right as they paint the whole picture and not a paint by numbers portrait.

  • TL

    I just went back and re-read the whole “Siobhan O’Hanlon dies” thread and honestly there isn’t a lot of grave dancing, however it was heavily redacted.

  • The Devil

    Yokel….. a very fair point indeed.

    Busty Brenda…. 1,000,000% spot on.

    El Matador… I fully agree but a more interesting question now as more informants are outted is who instructed Scappatticci to uncover Moreland to make the Army Council look hard lined… and why?

    Keith M…. I couldn’t agree more, people missed the point of the objection completely, that being Mo Mowlam and Ted Heath were and remain significant persons of position or achievement in Irish related history, where as O’Hanlon was only related to someone who writes for a southern newspaper, interesting enough for a tittle tattle passing comment in a pub but that would be it.

    Mickhall… you display all the traits of the student who can’t fully understand the mathamatical problem but can’t wait to teach everybody else how to do the sum.

  • PaddyReilly

    I think it would be a great improvement if everyone was banned from mentioning any event previous to the year 2000.

    I think though MF would complain that the effort of redacting was not worth the pay.

    The argument at the Christmas Dinner table in < > is one of the best pieces of literature, and one of the most aptly descriptive.

  • PaddyReilly

    <> should read “Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man”

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all, I think Mick Hall’s piece has brought out some very interesting points…especially the thought that other conflicts…wars…the people/politicans can and do move beyond the events of the past.
    I also think that Sinn Fein has created alot of the problem regarding how this woman was remembered…and the tone of discussion. When Sinn Fein negotiated back 2 winters ago for PIRA to state they would end their criminality and thus Sinn Fein would be able-or so they thought-to go back into government…Sinn Fein shifted the IRA as patriots to the IRA were criminial. It was Sinn Fein that criminialized the IRA not Magret Thatcher or Tony Blair…and now the fruits of this policy are coming to light. Sinn Fein hides the PIRA past of a woman who died as though it was shameful…rather than celebrating she was a patriot who fought to free her country from the british crown.
    Continuing on Mick Hall’s thoughts…I think President Bush (papa bush) went to the Emperor of Japan’s funeral as the representative of the US and President Bush had been shot down by the Japanesse in World War 2. Didn’t a represenative of the british royal family attend the cermonies of the recent Japanesse royal family wedding…and the Japanesse had been brutal to british pow’s in the second world war…used tied up brit pow’s as live target practice for the soldiers loyal to the Emperor of Japan?
    All the best Mick ;o)

  • Busty Brenda

    Kathy C what are you on about?

    Mick Hall wrote ‘It is the bitterness and small mindedness of some who posted comments’

    That is very serious playing of the man rather than the ball. Why did Mick not have the courage of his convictions and say what he had to say on this board? He could have written the piece and posted it here via an e mail to Mick Fealty.

    Did Mick Hall have so little to write about that the best idea he could find is to attack those who differ from his opinion and with whom he debates daily, on another forum and then expect that his comments are treated with glee?

    Still I have more things to think about. I have tried to dye my feckin hair and now I look like a jar of BEETROOT!!! Some of us have serious things to worry about.

  • ingram

    Hi,

    Quote”Still I have more things to think about. I have tried to dye my feckin hair and now I look like a jar of BEETROOT!!! Some of us have serious things to worry about.

    LOL

    hope everything works out Busty.

  • Busty Brenda

    You are a kind man Martin Ingram. Help is on the way.

  • TL

    (Phone rings) “Hello”
    “Hey, I’ve just completely destroyed by hair. Can you run to the store and get something brown and normal and get over here ASAP? Oh, and pick up a bottle of wine, or two.”
    I understand BB!

  • missfitz

    God Brenda, dont let any of them lads near your hair

  • elfinto

    Kathy C,

    I heard that Sinn Fein were responsible for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. What do you think?

    Change the record,

    elfinto

  • TAFKABO

    Elfinto.

    Very poor response.

  • Bunter

    Just like Mad Dog, the Lady ooops! was a convicted terrorist. Who although gone will not soon be forgotten, imortalized in song and guinness in the GA clubs of West Belfast, Boston & Chicago. But bottom line this woman wanted to maim & kill Protestants, she wanted to do the same to anyone who stood up to the Repluican rabble of late. Both sides have their heros, to all honest hard working folk at the end of the day their all painted with the same brush. TERRORISTS! KILLERS!

  • elfinto

    tafkabo,

    It never ceases to amaze me how often unionists and anti-SF republicans back each other up on this site.

  • TAFKABO

    Elfinto.

    I’m not backing anyone up, I often find KathyC one of the most offensive and objectionale contributors to the site.
    I was just remarking on the quality of your post.

  • Brian Boru

    Magic Andy, I think it depends on the extent to which NI remains dependent on the public-sector (directly and indirectly). If the British govt can restructure it into a private-sector driven economy then the need for tax increases might not be so acute after all. Admittedly this would take a long time.

  • elfinto

    Tafkabo,

    I don’t think your sniping adds any quality to the thread either.

    Kathy C’s contributions ususally consist of intemperate rantings against the people she views as traitors. Like you said – thoroughly obnoxious. Maybe next time she goes off on one perhaps I will oppose her nonsense in a more constructive manner. However she does not strike me as someone who is likely to take other points of view on board. Thus the laziness of my intial response – a feeble but necessary protest against an excess of vitriol.

  • I FEEL INSULTED

    Quote by TAFK

    “I often find KathyC one of the most offensive and objectionale contributors to the site”

    one of the most, so who is the most offensive 🙂

  • TAFKABO

    Elfinto.

    Fair enough.

    one of the most, so who is the most offensive 🙂

    I never kiss and tell.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all, Elfinto- Your response about SF and Hiroshima and Nagasaki is just plain silly.
    The course and choices that Sinn Fein has made especially over the past 2 years have created a host of problems. Your response and how Sinn Fein responds to critism are very similiar. Rather than looking at the problems-identifiying there are problems and then trying to find solutions…anyone who shows light onto the problems -like myself-is vilified and mocked. Yet, the problems are still there. The DUP and the british gov’t are winning and sinn fein has become for the lack of a better word rather impotent. The DUP are causing great political pain for sinn fein…yet I do not see sinn fein being up for the task and causing the DUP political problems…why …because Sinn fein is too busy playing the political victim and begging the other side..sorta like a play ground where one group won’t let the others play…and the ones kept out just keep whinning and saying, “Come on guys…let us play.” hoping the ones playing the game will come to their senses admit they were wrong and let the whiners in. Aint gonna happen. And I repeat that Sinn Fein bears some responsiblity for how this woman’s death and the memory of her life was handled..or mishandled. As for Mick Hall…he has every right to write in his paper his observations of the world..including this site.

  • I FEEL INSULTED

    I just had the great idea that we should all print our hate lists or hit list top ten, now that would be fantastic reading.

  • Soldier X

    Surprised nobody has mentioned that O’Hanlon was also “the one that got away” in Gibraltar. Allegedly, of course.

    We are the Pilgrims master; we shall go
    Always a little further: it may be
    Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
    Across that angry or that glimmering sea.

  • the queen

    Kathy
    At the risk of getting an answer, I just want to ask, in what way do you feel you shed light on things?

    I often think you are just trying to wind people up and that noone could have your views, so please tell me, are you for real?

  • elfinto

    Kathy C,

    I find it hard to take lecures about vilification from someone who repeatedly insinuates that other republicans are traitors who are controlled by British intelligence.

    The suggestion that Sinn Fein is somehow responsible for unionist vilifying the late Siobhan O’Hanlon is patently ridiciulous, but still, any old excuse to jump on your hobby horse and vilify other republicans.

    To suggest that the DUP are not under any pressure to compromise shows how out of touch you are with political developments. The general consensus is that the DUP are under immense pressure to compromise and that some form of Joint Authority, albeit under a different name, will be introduced if they don’t.

    Dave Rupert’s Cowboy Hat

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    elfinto, Was paisley rewarded? Wasn’t his wife put into the upper house of parliment…the House of Lords? Was anti-catholic members of the orange order rewarded by being named and put on the parades commission so the orange order has a good chance of marching down gavarhy road…. was the unionist community rewarded by getting a fair larger degree of money for their poorer neighborhoods than the republicans….yeah…I see the intense pressure put on the Dup and the unionist community. Now look at sinn fein…were they rewarded back 2 years ago to have the PIRA give up it’s “criminality”…was sinn fein rewarded for having PIRA decomission it’s weapons…let’s see….sinn fein’s people can’t raise money in the US …nope that’s not a reward…Gerry Adams was ‘searched’ at the air port when he was in the states…nope that isn’t a reward….gov’t isn’t up in running with sinn fein in the assembly due to the PIRA going out of business….nope I don’t see that as a reward…so, as we look at things…who is under the ‘intense pressure’….is it sinnfein or dup…? As for traitors….who had one lately…gee sinn fein with donaldson. I have not stated that all republicans are under the control of the brits…but we did have donaldson who did alot of damage at home and abroad especially in the US…there may be more traitors…there may not be….however, I just keep asking…the road sinn fein is on…is it helping the republican cause or the brit agenda….and as I said above…alot of what sinn fein has done lately…isn’t doing much foro the republican cause or its’ people. Since sinn fein asked for PIRA to give up it’s criminality…sinn fein then per logic…in that statement equated PIRA as criminals. Now if Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness can state that…why then aren’t they responsible forhow some people after that statement are demanding that PIRA were criminals…aka also this woman who just died because she has been linked to PIRA. I for one have stated for years and years that the IRA are patriots just like theh American Patriots of Lexington and Concord who stood up to the british in our Revolutionary war…now how can this be seen that I’m saying republicans are traitors?
    queen, yes, I am for real…and I have the views that I comment on….

  • missfitz

    Kathy, I ended up being queen for a day, and it was grand.

    I know where you are coming from, I have been there too. If all you are doin gis stirring up a little debate, fine and dandy. But if you honestly and truly believe those things, then you need to come here and really live the life and find out that Ireland is not what Irish America thinks it is.

    Several years ago, I hosted Ruth Dudley Edwards for a few days. I was shocked and horrified at what she said, but it started an opening of my mind. I dont and didnt agree with all she said, but the worm started to tuen and I started to ask questions.

    I think we all owe it to ourselves to stop, no matter where we are coming from and allow ourselves to come away from a position of fixed single ideas and allow more room for new thoughts.

    As I said Kathy, if its just for the craic, thats fine. But if you truly believe the way you write, then you are representing no one but yourself, a little like the unabomber

  • Busty Brenda

    Kathy, C,

    I remember when you used to comment on the Danny Morrison board. I used to read it, I never joined it, as I found the debate on it very stiffling. BUT as I remember it you were on there and held extremely strong and staunch views about SF being on the RIGHT road. I do realise that a person can change their opinion but you have jumped from one extreme to another.

    Anyway, about the way things are in Ireland, I believe we are now entering an end game. The end game instead of proving to be the success it was meant to be, is turning out to be slow and tortorous for all involved.

    All political parties are uncomfortable with it. Yes SF have had a high level traitor, and there may be more, but that is not going to stop the process from moving on no matter how slowly.

    The position you are coming from where you see that SF have sold out etc, was one I was embracing myself about ten years back, but things have moved on. The debate now is as it should be, about normal (semi-normal) politics, such as policing, housing, etc.

    Perhaps you too need to move on. Get with the issues.

  • Kathy_C

    Posted by Kathy C

    Hi all, I didn’t have a chance to look at this over the weekend and would normally let it go. However since 2 posters responsed personally to what I stated, I want to reply,
    Missfitz, I do believe what I write. I do not have to live in Ireland to have an oppion of the issues. In fact as I stated previously on this board…that approach was well honed by Donaldson. Equate and allow people to voice oppions ONLY if they are living in Ireland. Funny how Sinn Fein only uses that approach to stop discussion of their way forward…they don’t use that approach when they are here asking us Americans for money to further their political ambitions….then it’s all nice nice…let American pay for sinn fein to work towards unification of Ireland…but once the money is given…don’t let Americans have a say how sinn fein works for a united Ireland.

    Busty Brenda, yes, I used to be an avid supporter of Sinn Fein…up until about 2 years ago when they changed direction and are more concerned about their political careers and ambitions. I am very aware of the issues and I see one looming on the horizon…the change of scenery this summer with the orange order sitting on the parades commision. As for ‘moving on’, I take that to mean….move on away from commenting on Sinn Fein? Funny how Sinn Fein uses the Americans to fund itself. I think he who pays…has the say. And since Americans pay…we have a say. And like any other political parties around in the world…if the leadership isn’t doing what those who fund it like…they usually change the leadership.

  • missfitz

    Kathy
    I think you are making a fair point in what you say about not having your opinion restricted due to a geographical consideration. But I dont think thats the issue at stake here.

    The opinion of Irish America can be quite different from that of Irish Ireland. No group has more right to speak but the perceptions can be different.

    I recently went on to the AOH website for some research, and I was struck by how they were playing the same old mope song. Public perception can be changed and molded, and I think that we all have a duty to guard against believing something without question. The public opinion has been carefully manipulated and controlled in America, hence the success in fundraising.

    I would defend the right of the Orange Order on the Commission. It’s good and right that their view is listened to. For too long we have refused to share the space in which we live here in Ireland, to accept that our Irish identity does not have to be bound up in a male, catholic identity. As we become more open, secular and cosmopolitan, we have to accept a wider defintion of Irish identity.

    What matters to the vast majority of people is the money in their pocket and the price of essential items. Who gets their taxes, or whether we have a United Ireland is completely immaterial to a very large proportion of the polulation.

    I respect your right to your opinion Kathy, but all I would ask is that you inform that opinion with the reality of life in Ireland today and test the ideas you have on real people.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,
    missfitz, it is good that we can have a discussion. I have to say that I do not defend the right of the orange order to be on the commission or even for the right of the orange order to exist. I find an instution that is founded on upholding the ascendancy of a protestant to the british throne anti catholic since the law forbides a Catholic for ascending the throne. Therefore, the orange order main reason for being is to keep a Catholic off the throne…keeping the throne of the british monarch pure from papist. I just have a huge problem with the orange order….Also, I have a huge problem with sinn fein’s about face concerning the order…Now they say it is the heritiage of the people and the right march…EXCEPT down certain streets. That is such a hypocritcal approach. Either it is alright for them to march….thus down ALL streets or it isn’t. Sinn Fein as become so AC/DC on this issue. Swinging all ways to try and placate and please all people. I find that approach rather sickening. But thanks for the discussion and I think they added a thread today about the orange order.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Kathy C,

    When are the native Americans going to be given back the land that was stolen from them by your forefathers? It’s time you and your compatriots, or should I say comrades given that you seem to be a supporter of communist leaning parties, left the occupied states of America nad gave it back to it’s original inhabitants and rightful owners!

  • john burns

    Well said ” Intelligence Insider”. Kathy come home and give the REAL Americans back their country and jobs that all Irish Americans take.

  • Busty Brenda

    quote john burns, ‘kathy come home’

    Perhaps not.

    missfitz well said.

  • missfitzslugging

    Thanks Brenda
    BTW, did you get the hair emergency sorted out?

  • Harry

    kathy_c has a point – sinn fein did equate the IRA with criminality by giving up their aresenal under orders, thus creating the impression that they accepted that they were wrong to have them in the first place. And sinn fein are doing everything to accomodate the demands for clarification/decommissioning/’end to criminality’ that is being demanded of them.

    I hope they are doing this for reasons of gaining power in the south. Otherwise they will have damaged their credibility and the strength of their movement if they have allowed themselves to be portrayed in this way without any political gains at the end of it.

    We will have to wait for the election in the south to see.