Moving on.. again?

Despite the apparent narrative, the likelihood is that having already sidestepped one deadline for revealing their blueprint, the Irish and British governments were not going to delay their much vaunted visit to Armagh tomorrow in response to the murder of an informer, however brutal and violent that murder was. Instead, as Mick suggested in a post on one conspiracy theorist, the competing narratives are left to battle for supremacy… not for the first time where Denis Donaldson is concerned.. and both governments, and at least one political party, have coalesced around a familiar, and particularly relevant in this case, ‘let’s move along now’ line.Whether the various dancers can continue can step away from potentially embarrassing events before those events receive proper scrutiny – and whether that will encourage, or further damage, the prospects for political progress – remains to be seen.. but colour me sceptical.

  • Seems the only time the media gets excited in norn iron is when there’s a killing.
    A spy got his just deserts. *yawn*
    So far it appears the DUP are the only party making political capital out of it.
    So no suprises there then.
    Am beginning to think Dr.Paisley is indeed blessed, at critical junctures in the last few years he always seems to be handed a present he can use to say “NO” with.

  • slug

    The worry is that, as the process seems to falter, discontent republicans turn against Gerry Adams, and he himself is deposed.

    That would be a disaster for the peace and for prosperity and stability in Northern Ireland, because it could result in hawkish elements regaining control of the IRA. We need Adams in place for the next 10 years to keep the peace. Remember there are some extremely ugly, angry and anti-British sentiments in the Irish Republican community.

  • English

    Paisley would have said NO anyway, but can only say No for so long! The British and Irish Governments also know this, and have a plan to move on without the Assembly through an intergovernmental approach as a result.

    They are right to move on, even though many people (mostly from Northern Ireland) will try to make it difficult for them. Blair and Ahern however have the full backing of the British and Irish public behind them in the main. The Donaldson murder needs to be put to one side for now, in the same way the DUP have chose to ignore the 24 Loyalists feud killings and Loyalist Paramilitary Decommissiong.

    It is the IRA who have made the greatest strides towards peace out of all the extremists. The British Govrnment knows this both through spying on them and negotiations. Why else is security being scalled down?

    Blair has taken what Sinn Fein have said on face value. The finger is still pointing firmly at the DUP in my view to move forward, and plans are already in place if they don’t! It ia about time!

    My prediction – No pay for the MLA’s and joint British and Irish rule.

  • william

    Time for all the parties to move forward, if a party chooses not to tough – thats democracy and choice!

  • tadhg

    Spirit Level –

    I rarely agree with you, but in this case you are spot on. “A spy got his just deserts. *yawn*” Lately the timing of such events always seems to favor Ian Paisley and your team. Fair Play Spirit Level.

    After the conspiracy theories die down and we get closer to the truth, the consequences to the peace process will become clear.


  • SpiceGirls

    Is the murder of D Donaldson so obviously not the PIRA that it must be?

    If the PIRA wanted DD dead – when would be the best time?? Certainly not during the past 6 months – all the political parties would have pointed the finger at SF.

    However 2 days prior to Tony and Bertie coming over for a chat?? No one would ever blame SF/IRA then? They are the so called peace makers – desparate to get into local government with a clean bill of health.

    Could the truth be that, to keep hardliners happy DD had to go and this was thought the best time to do it! Everyone blames disidents because SF have too much to lose, and the DUP throw a wobbley – resulting in everyone thinking that Big Ian’s army have lost their marbles – again!!

    Is delaying power sharing really such a bad thing for SF? They can play the ‘victim / discrimination’ card for a further 6-12 months, further building their support and completely wipe out the SDLP!!

    The IRA were pretty quick to publically state they had no involvement, whilst big Gerry was condemming within minutes – all a little too well organised!!

    I smell a rat!!!

  • ingram

    Spice Girls,

    You have nailed this one Gal.

  • slug

    “The IRA were pretty quick to publically state they had no involvement, whilst big Gerry was condemming within minutes – all a little too well organised!!

    I smell a rat!!!”

    I am convinced Gerry Adams ordered it (being the head of the IRA) and he had all the IRA denials thought up in advance, which came much quicker than normal. There was no sense of the Adams/IRA being taken by surprise.

  • bootman

    “The IRA were pretty quick to publically state they had no involvement, whilst big Gerry was condemming within minutes – all a little too well organised!!2—-spicegirls

    Should they wait just long enough for everybody to start asking “why did it take them so loong to deny it?”–you cant have it both ways

  • Crataegus

    Is it really of immediate concern who killed Mr Donaldson? Surely we are in danger of loosing sight of the more important issue of the democratic, proper and efficient governance of this place.

    The electorate have been perverse and voted into pole position two parties that are unlikely to form an administration. If we go to the poles the same is likely to happen. No elected administration; so the UK government steps in and Ministers make all sorts of decisions and the wheels keep rolling. Local politicians get paid and don’t have to grapple with any of the difficult decisions surrounding water charges, education, health etc. Certainly they don’t have to make decisions that would loose them votes, quite the opposite no decisions means no risks. The system reinforces and strengthens the entrenched groups and a joint governmental approach won’t make a jot of a difference.

    In theory the DUP will have its nose put out of joint, but ask yourself will this strengthen or weaken extreme Unionism?

    As for Nationalists and Republicans when will they ever learn that the more you rant on about something the more you alienate. Like mirror images of their opponents waving flags and seeping themselves in their traditions safe in their cosy idyll. Repeat the rants and don’t indulge in self critical analysis oh it is so easy.

    Let’s face it what coherent vision do any of the main parties offer on real day to day issues, where is the passion to tackle our Health Service, our Education system or our economic malaise? No the passion is reserved for blaming them uns and doing sod all that is anyway constructive.

    You don’t pay for something that isn’t functioning and no Assembly person should have received one penny in salaries or expenses.

    The party system has failed the local electorate and party politics may not be the best way forward in the coming decade so why invest in it? Perhaps time to consider amending the game by making those who stand for elections do so as individuals? Lets start to undermine the problem that is NI party politics.

    A tad unfair but definitely therapeutic.

  • Yokel


    Yeah i see the progession on the ground espcially two blokes not far from me who threatened someone for shouting too much at night with something very severe. They could back it up because they were…umm paramilitaries and everyone knew it. Also see a recently opened eaterie in Belfast thats backed by oh paramilitary money. Peace is peace and that means peace from people touting their paramilitary credentials on the street and taking money taken from legitimate businesses and individuals. Have no doubt it they use the paramilitary muscle to keep it up. They need to fuck away off and leave us alone. Progress my arse.

    Are you in the madding crowd that is the North or are you somewhere else? There’s a reason why people from Northern Ireland are going to make it dificult, they’ve lived through a very bitter and divisive conflict that even since the end of the active insurgency period the divison in this society has got worse, not necessarily better.

    Thirdly as harsh as this may seem, what the Irish people (South of the border) and the British people (GB based) say counts for diddly squat. This is where the problem is and this is where it needs solving. In fact it shows just what two faced fuckers both populations are when they are prepared to accept situations here for peace that they’d never accept in their own back yard.

    And don’t give me some bollocks about British people subsidising here and what if they withdraw it, because a) I’m opposed to it anyway and b) it won’t change anything on the ground in terms of changing minds.

  • Crataegus


    Your sartorial eloquence has no equal.

    I agree with you until there is a fundamental change in attitude here we are going nowhere. What measures do you think would help induce a sense of reality?

  • Yokel

    Crategus…you want to see my dress sense..

    Anyway, possible ways to push things along? Apart from wiping out large sections of the population you mean?

    I’m really going to have to look at ths at the government level because thats the lever potentially available to encourage attitude change though it still requires a community to collectively change and thats not a guarantee.

    I think the governments still babysit the politics in this country too much. They are still rushed to by whinging parties and still can be seen as serving sectional interests of these parties all to make deals. Thats fine, sometimes, but in this situation its getting us nowhere. How many times do we hear ‘we’ll be taking this complaint to the Irish goverment or the British government beause Big Ian or Beardy Gerry said this or that or he cops did this or the Provos that’

    Taking the money away is good but it is not going to alone make much happen. Taking the power of whinge away is where its at. Close the door on listening to the sectarian based whinges and run Northern Ireland more in line with the rest of the UK and not as a special subsidised case. Divest any special European funding particularly related to to ‘peace’. The Americans do the same. Stop the apparently important trips to America for them all and the US government also step away. We have veritable political pygmies stomping around Washnington for example. Screw that, its about here, the answer lies within the communities to remove the sectarian element and mopery from politics.

    Communities and their representatives need pushed to change via political isolation of their current approach to everything. As well as not letting them have any political influence at British or Irish government level there is also a state operational level of removing anything that supports the sectarian and wonderfully perverse ‘equality’ agenda. Here equality means if they get something we get something thats not equality thats just trying to stop people throwing their toys out of the pram. Need and deserving…thats the criteria. Integrated education while we are at it? You betcha, just refuse to have any school that is totally independently funded in existence via some nice legal measures. Green & Orange zones? None of that either. Knock down large sections of towns that are identified as veing one side or the other and replacing them with single areas with no fencing, no partition line? Anarchy? Maybe. Forced to get on with life, maybe.

    There will also be no support at government level for anything that is seen as a one side job. No official twelfth public holiday, no enqiries into dirty tricks, none of that.

    In short if people here want help, they have to show change in mentality and the will to change. We are way too busy trying to oush co-existence and political level, still, when we already ahve it when we need to be forcing co-existence at community level.

    Sure the constitutional issue will be there and in a democratic state thats a will of the majority issue, but the rest, jobs, welfare, crime and so forth, those problems rest with no one community to solve and as remarkable as it may sound(or remarkably stupid and naive)the constitutional issue needs to be se aside because to all intents and purposes it is settled at the ballot box and will be for some time to come.

    All politics and much fairly mundane activity here (going to watch sport for example, where you go for your FE college course) is seen in terms of the constitutional and religious issue because people choose to see it as such. When they don’t see it as such then we’ll get somewhere. The governments have been party to supporting that division by their actions and their willingness to accept it as legitimate. What if they turned around and said, ‘the constitutional issue is settled for now and we wont accept any arguments from you based on your side being a b or c and need x y and z’. To get anywhere people here would have to come up with a way of looking at things afresh. If they choose not to, let the place go to pot because it deserves it. Those sections of society that wish to sustain these attitudes should be denied support and funding, they should be denied influence. And when ineviatbly lash out in a rage they should be policed with considerable force.

  • Crataegus


    I must confess sympathy with your argument.

    I find it utterly impossible to relate to NI politics and many of the attitudes expressed. There are bound to be many like me, who literally have no one credible to vote for.

    The big four are big because of decades of media coverage and funding. What have they collectively produced? Sod all. They are behaving like pampered and spoilt children. Imagine they all ceased to exist would it make one iota of difference?

    They are playing the same old well tested gambits that have resulted in stalemate so high time the game was changed.

    If Hain inflicts pain, what will we have victim hood. What does that achieve? Pain must happen by default and be the responsibility of our local politicians. Reduce the budgets and allow locals to make the cuts and redundancies.

    I agree with your comments about our local irrelevant politicos jetting around, utterly sickening. What relevance are they in 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? If they are being ‘honoured’ what have they done? You describe them as pigmies, I think you flatter them.

    Everywhere I go I am in contact with government departments that simply don’t function efficiently. Fragmentation and lack of cohesion is endemic and why because there has been no effective control for decades. Better than that to ensure adequate posts for our dysfunctional political class we reorganised the departments not for any rational reason but to ensure a few extra ministers. That got us real far didn’t it!

    Then there is a whole peace industry. The amount of money that has been pumped into here is unbelievable but what has been the lasting benefit?

    Bad for the blood pressure!.

  • English


    I actually live here, but thankfully not during the troubles. I resent the way this country is being run by British ministers, and would prefer locally elected politicians to do so. It is right that Ireland and Britain push ahead and govern the North, the public cannot complain as they have voted for Sinn Fein and the DUP. I do sympathise about the pathetic lack of choice here politically though!

    What I would say, is that if you don’t like the Union and attitudes of people on the ‘mainland’ why don’t you leave it? The south has a more caring attitude to Northern Ireland after all, and everyone would be financially better off in the long run (as long as you don’t work in a subsidised job in the public sector!).

  • Crataegus


    The trick for Hain would be to land the local politicians with the responsibility for failing services. He should wash his hands of the place. Stepping in merely allows the locals to play silly games and blame him. Reduce funding and do nothing, best policy.

    The current proposal for November is merely putting off a decision that could be made tomorrow.

  • English

    The local politicians are guilty for what is happening, because they do nothing. The public are sick of their inaction, ‘put up or shut up’ is what voters are saying. Likewise, the DUP will have no grounds to complain if there is greater North-South co-operation and things do not like the policy that arises. Peter Hain and Tony Blair are not stupid, unlike the average member of the DUP.