Donaldson shot dead

Just getting early word that Denis Donaldson has been shot dead… Hain has called it ‘this barbaric act…” Pete has more above.

  • muscailte

    Brenda- You say ‘neighbors heard shots around 4.’ If I may, what’s the source for that? RTE is saying the body was lying in the house for 6 hours before a neighbor found the body at about 5…somebody’s wrong.

  • missfitz

    Mus
    I heard that on the BBC ten oclock news as well. He was reportedly seen by neighbours at 11 am, and shots were heard at 4pm.

    Mick started this thread at 5.30

  • slug

    Continuing my idea that the IRA were MIGHTY QUICK to respond, here is what harpo has said (on another forum):

    “Regarding the supposed killing/murder of Denis Donaldson. He isn’t actually dead.

    harpo has heard from a contact in the security services that this is a set-up. The ROI and British governments want to make it look like he was killed, but he has really been moved away to a new life under a new identity.

    And he has the perfect cover doesn’t he? It is being announced that he is dead. So no one will bother looking for him, will they?

    He has had Gardai protection since moving to live this supposedly hermit life in Donegal. It’s a perfect situation, isn’t it? No one else living with him and he has cut off all contact with his family and others. So no one can question it if he suddenly dies, can they? And it even feeds people’s assumptions about what was in store for him, doesn’t it. No one is surprised at the announcement of his death. Unionists think that the PIRA or dissident IRs will have murdered him, nationalists will think that British spooks murdered him.

    Meanwhile he is on his way to who knows where to live a taxpayer supported life free of fear.

    The big giveaway is that both governments jumped right in and condemned this ‘brutal murder’ before they could possibly know what had actually happened. They didn’t wait long enough to allow a period for those on the scene to work out if it was suicide or anything else – they announced a brutal murder. But they did it too soon. That’s because they are working off a script, and didn’t get the timing right. It was their job to condemn the supposed murder but they messed the timing up. They should have waited longer so that they could claim that police had told them in the normal course of events that it was murder, but they didn’t. There is no way that the normal course of events could have happened so quickly.

    So everyone has what they want – Donaldson is off somewhere to a new life, and unionists and nationalists are squabbling about who murdered him. The perfect cover.”

  • Busty Brenda

    NOOOOOOOOO

    Not another Elvis/Nelson.

    I do not think it’s a cover up. Altho the coffin will be closed because according toHugh Jordan he was BLASTED IN THE FACE.

  • missfitz

    Wow, I never knew a conspiracy theory could grow so big so quick….amazing. Habeus corpus?

  • Snuff Box

    Slug

    How long do you think it takes to draft a statement which is one sentence long? Do me a favour

  • muscailte

    Conspiracy? I still can’t figure out why RTE says he was dead for 6 hours and the BBC says neighbors heard shots at 4. They both agree he was found around 5. Was a dead man shot at4??? No wonder the rumor mill is in overdrive…

  • slug

    This had a choreographed feel.

  • Busty Brenda

    Perhaps RTE were calculating from the neighbour who seen him drive by at 11am that morning, rather than the shots heard at around 4pm. You must remember RTE broke the news first and perhaps got the information in bits and pieces, whereas as time progressed what actually happened became more clear.

  • Eddie Carson

    Mr P O Neil, love your statement “he knew the rules…boom headshot. respect to those who did it”, you are talking about the spectacular SAS operation at loughgall arent you ? lol my keyword was vermin8

  • mick

    This has always been the way of it….always..did people die because of the information he gave?? Who knows.People often think the worst. How was he “compromised whilst vulnerable”? It was always going to be like this!! Sad.

  • Ja-Provo Witness

    A British Paid Special Agent should know the risks of betraying the very people who made him who he was… breaking trust like that and selling out to the greatest enemy of them all only brings a one way ticket! Sorry to hear he died although it was all of his own doing unfortunately

  • David Michael

    Ja-Provo Witness

    ” it was all of his own doing unfortunately”

    So it WAS suicide then was it?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    There was a bit of discussion on the alleged severed hand/forearm being indicitive of torture.

    It’s possible that he threw his arm in front of his face to defend it from the shotgun blast.

    Just speculating…

    Have to say, I quite liked the wee guy when he was about Stormont, though I thought he was a bit nosey. Friendly enough though.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    RmmC: “Who stands to gain most from this man’s death?

    That would point to the murderer, wouldn’t it? At least, that what Hercule Poirot always says. ”

    The question, in Latin, is “qui bono” — who benefits.

    The problem is that too many folks had motive or something to gain… the wronged compatriots, his intelligence handlers, anyone who wanted to derail the peace process, any loonie who thought to make a name for himself…

    Did I miss anyone?

  • RmcC

    Dread Cthulhu:

    My question was not qui bono but who stands MOST to benefit.

    That rather narrows it down, and it’s not the PIRA or Sinn Féin.

  • Warm Storage

    It’s “cui bono?”, folks.

  • fair_deal

    First my sympathies to the Donaldson family.

    Second, the shot in the face is a common practice for executing an informer to prevent an open coffin – an “extra” punishment beyond death. The use of a shotgun means no ballistics.

    The one unusual thing I find in this is leaving the shotgun shells behind. The casings/shells can be matched to a shotgun by the scratches on the metal.

    Three, a sunday paper had claims that south Armagh was unhappy over the Slab raid. Responsibilty for killing of informers was a forte of the PIRA there. Is this there way at getting back at Adams?

    Four, the next IMC report becomes even more interesting.

  • andy

    FD
    I’m not an expert, but I think you may be confusing rifled guns with shotguns? – i thought there wasn’t the same kind of tell-tale signature with cartridges as there was with bullet cases.

    I would imagine there would be people reading this board with more precise knowledge (ahem..)

  • Warm Storage

    Fair Deal,

    The next IMC report’ll probably appear too soon to contain anything of substance. Is it not only a couple of weeks away from publication?

  • Realist

    Cracks in the PRM glue?

    Maybe some of the Volunteers have worked out Adam’s bought a dud in the GFA?

    Watch this space.

    PS: Does the PRM have a Outbound Call Centre somewhere, which goes into overdrive for events like this?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    andy: “I’m not an expert, but I think you may be confusing rifled guns with shotguns? – i thought there wasn’t the same kind of tell-tale signature with cartridges as there was with bullet cases. ”

    A shotgun will not have the tell-tale “lan and groove” that one would find on the bullet from a rifled barrel, as the shotgun is a smoothbore — even with a “rifled slug,” the “rifling” in on the slug, not the barrel of the gun.

    The shot shell, however, would have the marks made by the hammer of the gun against the primer and, depending on the gun used, ejection / extraction marks. However, this is o flittle used unless the shell was left at the scene. If this were a straight hit, a break-action gun, cut down for concealment, may be the weapon of choice — manual ejection, so the killer would be able to carry the shells out with him, denying evidence to the police.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    warm storage: “It’s “cui bono?”, folks. ”

    Mea culpa… but what do you want for 3:30 in the morning?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Just checked the BBC… two shells were found outside, so the police should have access to firing marks (metal hammer striking the metal primer) and possibly extraction marks (marks on the metal portions of the shell made in the act of ejection).

  • Warm Storage

    Apologies, Dread Cthulhu. I didn’t intend to come across as being pedantic. It was simply meant as a clarification for future reference. The phrase was being used an awful lot on the thread, so I just thought I’d flag it up!

  • Euro32

    Picking D.D. murderer is like trying to pick a winner in the National. Everybody had a reason to murder this man but what I think is important is how the man lived and where he lived. Might show how safe he felt he was. Living as a hermit in Donegal would not be in my opinion the safest of lifestyles for a former informant as proved by the fact that it didnt take the Sunday World long to find him. I believe this was a political killing and not revenge purely on the timing of his death. I dont think the P.I.R.A. would have sanctioned any murder of this man so close to talks unless they were making a political statement of threir own. In my opinion think dissidents or loyalists.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Warm Storage: “Apologies, Dread Cthulhu. I didn’t intend to come across as being pedantic. It was simply meant as a clarification for future reference. The phrase was being used an awful lot on the thread, so I just thought I’d flag it up! ”

    No, not at all — as one of the smei-resident pedants, I cheerfully acknowledge and accept your clarification. Likewise, seeing as it was partially my fault in promulgating the phrase here and elsewhere, its wholly appropriate. Thanks for the heads up… I’m prolly still a little rusty.

  • 9

    9

  • Gombeen man

    A British agent inside Republican movement, carrying out a political killing for Brits, not sanctioned by RM?

  • harpo

    ‘Who stands to gain most from this man’s death?

    That would point to the murderer, wouldn’t it?’

    RmcC

    It would not necessarily point to the murderer. It would point to the main suspect though.

    And that’s the point if you are a clever murderer. A clever murderer (who does not stand to gain most from the person’s death), knowing that in the event of a person being murdered that there will be a main suspect (the person who does stand to gain most), can go ahead and commit the murder. Knowing that as soon as the murder happens all eyes will fall on the main suspect.

    Thus in a situation where a wife stands to gain most from her husband dying (through an insurance policy), she will obviously be suspect number 1 if the husband dies suspiciously. Thus a clever murderer will go ahead and kill the husband knowing that he/she will not be suspect number 1.

    In Donaldson’s case, British spooks have arguably most to gain from Donaldson dying. But all that this means is that the PIRA could go ahead and kill him knowing that many will assume that the main suspect did it.

    We have to remember that the PIRA or individual Provos had a motive too – revenge. So while they may not be the main suspects they are suspects.

    As for Poirot, I think you have him wrong. He works on the basis of finding a list of suspects based on potential motives and assessing each of these. He doesn’t go straight for the suspect who has most to gain from the death of the person, simply because a clever murderer with a seemingly lesser motive would use this against him if they knew that the investigators were going to go straight to the person with most to gain.

  • Reader

    rmc: My question was not qui bono but who stands MOST to benefit.
    Why do you think that narrows things down, beyond the perfectly sensible question ‘who stands to benefit?’.

    Are you also advocating that the police should arrest the poorest person in the locality after every robbery? (for the same reason)

  • RmcC

    Reader

    “Why do you think that narrows things down, beyond the perfectly sensible question ‘who stands to benefit?’.

    Why do you think?

    “Are you also advocating that the police should arrest the poorest person in the locality after every robbery? (for the same reason)”

    No, are you?

    Some contributors here are telling us that various parties are playing a very clever game. Really? If those involved in NI “business” are so clever how come the place is in such a mess?

  • TAFKABO

    Some contributors here are telling us that various parties are playing a very clever game. Really? If those involved in NI “business” are so clever how come the place is in such a mess?

    And that is about as sensible a post as I’ve read in the last twenty four hours.
    One mistake we often make is in trying to come up with reasons that have been well thought out, with all the implications of given action accounted for.
    I tend to belive more in the cock up theory of history.Things have this awful habit of happening and mostly people just react to them, rather than planning them out beforehand.
    Of all the possible theories being mooted, the one that strikes me as the most plausible is the one that is given the least attention.
    This poor wretched man may have been killed by an individual with a grudge, possibly even a close relation.

  • missfitz

    Am I minded of Caesar, when they all came up to him in and stuck a knife in?

    They all had reason, they all had form and he had thoroughly pissed them all off.

    I dont think he was living in the wilds cos he felt safe, by the way. I would imagine his state of mind was one of absolute disregard for his safety. He may even, in some despairing way, have been expecting this.

    Sorry if this sounds depressing, but I suspect that this was a genuine personal tragedy for this man. I imagine the fact of his informer status for all those years just wore him down in the end and he could care less. It was probably a kind of reckless disregard for his personal safety in the end.

  • Ed de Ted

    I would like to ask the question – was it OK for the Sunday World to expose DDs location and do they not bear some responsibility for this killing. It seems that the last profession beyond reproach in Ireland is the media. Luckily we now question the medical, religious, legal, and teaching professions. Maybe it’s time for us to wake up and start to question the media, but then again who would expose it – hardly the media.

  • greg

    Sunday World writer Hugh Jordon claimed the exclusive on the whereabouts of Donaldson’s safe house.

    Does Jordan not have connections and dealings with another paramilitary grouping from Donaldson’s former home area.

    I don’t recall any stories from Hugh on the fully armed and active wing of the workers party/oira.

    Does extortion, money lending and drugs not interest Hugh and the sunday world (northern edition)????

  • missfitz

    Y’all could check this out apropos the SW connection

  • missfitz
  • Rory

    Instead of everyone saying, “I believe that PIRA did it; I believe that MI5 did it; I believe that Loyalists did it…”, why not just be honest and say, “I want to believe that…x,y,z did it”.

    I really would save just a little bit of time, though only a little, since each posting reveals only desire not belief.