Spy ring is British intelligence scam

Sinn Fein in Belfast has denied the accusation that it ran a spy ring at Stormont. However Nigel Dodds argues that it indicates the huge distance Sinn Fein must travel to regain any credibility as a political party.

  • Seano

    “According to reports in a Sunday newspaper, a Sinn Féin member – and not Denis Donaldson as claimed in widespread reports – ran a Sinn Féin spying campaign in Stormont between 2001 and 2002.”

    I love how these papers mention and accuse another Sinn Fein member without mentioning who it actually was. And if Donaldson was supposedly going to be outed in order to save this other Sinn Fein individual, then why bring it out now? What did you say? Dirty tricks?

  • martin ingram

    The party is falling apart, those before who were intimidated and scared to put their names to any articles are now finding the strength to tell the truth. That is progress, well done.

    South Down Democrat

    Tuesday, January 03, 2006

    Spy ring riddle

    SENSATIONAL claims about the existence of a culture of spying and intelligence gathering by Sinn Fein members in South Down have been made in the aftermath of the Denis Donaldson affair.

    Disillusioned party activists have told the Down Democrat that they believe the former Sinn Fein Director of Elections, who before Christmas was unmasked as being a British agent for 30 years, has planted his own network of spies throughout South Down. They have also voiced strong criticism of the role played by Caitriona Ruane in the constituency, describing her as “a divisive figure who was always too quick to follow the Donaldson line.”

    The Sinn Fein leadership is also accused of turning a blind eye to the activities of a convicted drug dealer.

    THE central role of MI5 agent Denis Donaldson in developing Sinn Fein’s electoral strategy across South Down has left the constituency riddled with informers and intelligence gatherers who are actively working for the British Security Forces.

    The claims about the vulnerability of Sinn Fein to infiltration by agents collecting information on behalf of the Stormont authorities have been made by a group of South Down based party activists.

    They say that they have been left with “no alternative” but to voice their concerns in public. Their comments come in the wake of the outing of Denis Donaldson as a British agent just before Christmas.

    As a former Director of Elections for Sinn Fein he was regarded as a member of the party’s elite inner circle and as the effective Chief of Staff for Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams.

    The confirmation that Denis Donaldson had been on the payroll of British Intelligence for over two decades has thrown Sinn Fein into turmoil. Questions continue to be asked within political circles over the exact timing of the disclosure that Donaldson was a British agent.

    carried forward to next page Martin

  • martin ingram

    In particular there is recurring speculation that his cover was blown after 20 years in order to protect a number of even more highly placed intelligence moles within Sinn Fein.

    “We cannot trust anybody anymore. It’s as simple as that. When you have a major player like Donaldson turned over as a British spy it could be your brother or sister who is also on the paid informer list.

    “We have no faith in promises that we will be listened to. The people at the top, the people close to the leadership, are the same individuals that have forced hard working members of Sinn Fein out of the party.

    “They parachuted in Caitriona Ruane to fight the South Down seat in the General Election. This was done over the wishes of the rank and file membership who wanted to support a locally based candidate.

    “We complained when Donaldson demanded that his own people were given priority in the last Local Government elections. “Francie Branniff had no say in being moved out of Down District to fight for a seat on Banbridge Council.

    “Frank McDowell was another one that Donaldson wanted to get rid of. But Frank refused to budge, despite all sorts of dirty tricks. “Party headquarters tried to say he had a rough and ready image and that he didn’t fit the new profile they wanted in their Councillors.”

    There was also anger expressed over the treatment of former Downpatrick based Councillor Aiden Carlin, who at one stage was regrded as a rising star of Sinn Fein. “Aiden Carlin was given no option but to quit the party. He was looked upon as one of the best young prospects we had by many people.

    “But because he questioned the way the party was going on some issues he was invited up to the Short Strand and given an offer he couldn’t refuse.

    “He was given promises about investigations into various matters before eventually being prevailed upon by elements based in South Armagh to stand aside. “When you are given the choice of having your name on a ballot or a bullet the decision making process becomes pretty easy.”

    The embarrassing revelations in the Down Democrat about the prominent role played by a convicted durg dealer while at the same time representing Sinn Fein in Newcastle was another contentious issue.

    “When questions were asked about why a convicted drug dealer in Aveen Butler was allowed to stay in the party and continue to make offers of cash donations for various projects, we were told it was none of our business.

    “The public was told lies by the leadership over Aveen Butler. They knew for months before Butler was exposed as having a record for drugs offences.

    “Yet they allowed her to build up a profile as a community activist in Newcastle. “Was it perhaps because Butler was willing to offer sums of £10,000 for various projects that she was tolerated?

    “It’s no surprise that plenty of decent and committed Sinn Fein supporters like former Hunger Striker Gerry Carville and election worker Mickey McClelland refused to play any further public role for the party when the sordid Aveen Butler revelations surfaced” they said.

    The Sinn Fein party workers and members told the Down Democrat that they repeatedly warned about the long term implications of pursuing the Donaldson selection agenda, especially regarding Caitriona Ruane. “But we were not listened to. It was a case of “Do what I say and don’t ask any questions.”

    “People were hauled in from South Armagh and put in positions of authority. Long standing Republicans, from places like Castlewellan, were dumped and left humiliated. “Those people that Donaldson handpicked were to a certain extent vetted by the party, even though he always made it clear that he would have the final say.

    “There are plenty of people in Sinn Fein who are now very concerned that those party workers were also given the stamp of approval by the British Government. “And did the Brits have a say in the choice of Ruane as the candidate to fight Eddie McGrady in the Westminster seat?

    “After all, it suited the British to keep South Down in SDLP hands. All the publicity just before the General Election of a dirty tricks campaign against McGrady based on leaked Stormont documents gave the SDLP a head start. “Combined with the choice of a weak and unpopular candidate in Ruane it was perfect for the SDLP. It also suited the British perfectly.

    “Looking back at the whole Stormont spygate issue and Donaldson’s pivotal role in the case it all ties up very neatly as an example of Donaldson’s political betrayal. “Nobody can convince us that that isn’t the situation.” The Sinn Fein activists stressed to the Down Democrat that they were in no way to be classified as so-called Dissident Republicans.

    Martin Carried forward to next page

  • martin ingram

    “We are Republican by conviction. No one can take that away from us. It isn’t us who have been found out to have been supplying information to the British. “We have never compromised on our principles and we never will. But we determined to ask questions that will have to be answered.”

    They told the Down Democrat that up to now those that dared to question the official party line as dictated by Donaldson over the past number of years have been placed, at best “in a kind of political quarantine.”

    “They are treated as diseased dogs. They are completely muzzled and only allowed to repeat what is fed to them through the central publicity office.

    “Those that are regarded as being beyond redemption are just dumped out into a Siberian type political exile. “The general public, the ordinary people who voted for Sinn Fein, don’t realise how tight the control is.

    “Denis Donaldson operated, and was allowed to operate, a form of Thought Police control. “He ruled with a rod of iron. He was allowed by the party leadership to get away with what he wanted to get away with.

    “Now however people are looking over their shoulder. They are, quite rightly in our opinion, asking if the strategy implemented by the leadership was all of their own or was it really a blueprint drawn up and ultimately sanctioned by the British?

    “Donaldson was never away from South Down. It was his baby. He was the one that pulled all the strings in getting people into positions of authority. “Good people have been forced out of the party. They couldn’t take it any more. They could see what was going on.”

    The Sinn Fein party activists told the Down Democrat they believe that the entire complexion of the party in South Down, and its approach towards any form of internal dissent, has been formed and shaped by the values and views of Denis Donaldson.

    “The Donaldson agenda was at its strongest in South Down. He called all the shots. “But it was the British who supplied the ammunition. “And even though Donaldson has gone the individuals he allowed to pull the various triggers are still firmly in place.”

    Martin. Dont be scared of the truth.

    “There is no glory in war….
    only death, destruction,
    shattered bodies and
    disturbed minds”
    “Inter arma enim silent leges”

  • Henry94

    The Sinn Fein vote in South Down has doubled from 13% in 1996 to 26% today.

    The vast majority of republicans in the constituency have worked hard to bring that about and they are unlikely to be either impressed or distracted by real or imagined whinging.

    I’m sure there is a ready audience for such twittering among our unionist readers but where it matters it will have no effect whatsoever.

  • martin ingram

    Henry. The tide is changing, it is no longer acceptable to threaten with a bullet instead of a ballot paper. Are you suggesting these Republicans are lying?

    The increase you remark upon is prefaced by the party not being a British party, difficult to avoid the problems associated with the level of penetration that has occurred.People will rightly question those that have been ” Placed” in those key areas, history tends not to favour those unlucky over and over and over and over again.

    Martin

  • J Kelly

    This seems to be a bit of the previous thread concerning Suzanne Breen elements of the media are able to produce former sinn feiners and sinn fein activists to back up this conspiracy that sinn fein is riddled with informers. Unidentified sources leave a bad taste and lack credibility.

    In all of this story about Denis Donaldson the best take on it came from Tommy McKearney, who wouldn’t be seen as one of the Sinn Fein insiders, when he said that informers and agents were an occuptional hazard for republicans and the only reason the Brits need these people is that they fear republicans and what they might achieve.

  • crow

    It looks like Mr Donaldson’s legacy will continue for a long time.

  • martin ingram
    What is your agenda here?
    Who are you?
    I note your absence from sluggers last year.
    Now you’re blogging away like there’s no tomorrow.
    Are you trying to destroy SF credibility in the wake of a push to devolution?
    Have you an axe to grind?
    Are you on a pay-roll?
    Do you have a website that espouses a particular view on your politics?

    What’s the story jackanory?

  • crow

    There seems to be a few people who do not(or cannot) take any kind of criticism against sf.

  • Seano

    Martin Ingram

    “Are you suggesting these Republicans are lying?”

    It’s not a question of lying, Martin. Whether some of their allegations are true or not, will eventually become irrelevant. As everyone knows, Sinn Fein are masters at the “damage control” game and will either weather this storm or implode, as is the British/Irish govt’s wish.

    I know where my money is placed, do you?

  • crow

    It reminds me of the time my sister cried when Take That split up.We could see it coming for months, with all the stories that kept coming out about the goings on in the band.But when it finally happend the shock to my sister was still painfull.(I still think Robbie Williams was a british agent).

  • crow

    I do not believe the british govt wants sf to implode.After steering the party to the almost managable state it is in now.Why would they bother?

  • elfinto

    crow,

    It could be that now SF have got rid of (most of) the guns the British government would prefer to deal with the SDLP (seeing as the DUP is unlikely to deal with SF). Or it could be that the British government doesn’t really have any coherent plan but would just like to bring Gerry down a peg or too. It seems to be working.

    With regards to criticising Adams, McGuiness, &tc – to an extent they have had it coming to them for a long while, by using neo-Stalinist party management methods (or so I am led to believe by what I read).

    While they have a lot of answers to give over the Scap affair, to accuse either Adams or McGuinness of ‘working for the Brits’ beggars belief – in my humble opinion anyway – yet that is what those who listen to the likes of ‘Martin Ingram’ would have us believe.

    It’s also worth noting that around 25% of the electorate in the sick counties and up to 10% in the rest of Ireland. That is quite an achievement by any standard. Credit where credit is due. Is there an alternative to electoral politics? I think not.

  • Henry94

    The same people who claim massive penetration on one hand claim the IRA robbed the Northern Bank. They don’t really know in eiother case but are simply trying to damage Sinn Fein in any way they can.

    Are you suggesting these Republicans are lying?

    What repubulicans? Unnamed O’Sources?

  • belfastwhite

    So the Down Democrat sources had no option but to go public on these issues by …errr…let’s see remaining anonymous! Yeah my six year old could see through that one.

    It’s the kind of reporting akin to the sickening Irish News story linking Republican Brian Keenan to a drug dealer after the tragic death of an infant child related to them both. This story has the people of Greater Ballymurphy in an uproar at the callousness of such reporters and I know people who have phoned the Irish News to vent their anger. How do these people live with themselves I for one won’t put bread on their tables and I’ll stick to Daily Ireland and the Andytown News.

    Those Stoopers on this site trying to make political capital out of Stormontgate (while completely ignoring the Brits duplicity) should maybe ask themselves why the Brits haven’t bothered to infiltrate the SDLP? Maybe they don’t see them as a threat to the status quo or the partition of this country.

  • martin ingram

    Spirit Level.

    1. Asked and answered

    2. Asked and answered

    3. Sorry I did not know I would be missed, I have a note though from my mother. I continued to post on the IBB site as Mick Hall will tell you and post upon The Blanket etc.

    4. Smell Blood

    5. No

    6. The wife

    7. No

    The story according to Jackanory has been ongoing since my first arrest in 1999. I have been a constant advocate of the Truth for many years, what is your position Spirit? Tell me what have you done to bring the victims closure or indeed the criminals to task?

    Whats the story Jackanory?

  • martin ingram

    Spirit Level.

    I missed one:

    5. You are having a laaarrrrrrf mate what credibility. Sinn Fein are an extension to the British Govt. Ask the Hunger strikers if todays agreement is what tney died for:

    1. Paid Involvemnt in a British Administration within a defined and recognized state of Northern Ireland.

    2. Articles 2/3 of the Irish constitution. Renounmcing all territorial claims to the North by the Irish Govt.

    3. The destruction of all Arms and munitions in contravention to the Green Book.Too scared to go to a full Army convention, to obtain the required consent. This decommissioning of Arms was completed without Loyalism being required to reciprocate.

    4. The negotiation of an agreement designed to allow the admonishment of all British State forces involvemnt in criminal acts. Connor Murphy stood proud outside British parliament defending a British/ Sinn Fein agreement negotiated in private.It took weeks for Sinn Fein to back down from its public lies and what happened to Connor?? Hello Connor where are you now Connor?

    Shall I go on? I did not think so. Muppet

    Ask Genuine Republicans how they got manoeuvred into this dark alley Boy and you can be sure of a quick reply especially inTyrone or South Armagh. The City , Belfast and Derry was always easy prey full of big time charlies, ask a genuine Republican from Cross what he thinks about todays game.

    Sinn Fein have indeed done a good job in respect to achieving peace, a piece of silver for Stormont, a piece of silver for decommissioning, a piece of silver for putting the IRA away to bed.

  • Paul

    The Brits are scared of what SF might achieve? What would that be? A peaceful united Ireland? I would have thought that would have delighted them.
    A Scicily on their doorstep? Maybe you have a point.

  • Belfastwhite

    Martin

    In case you didn’t notice votes for Sinn Fein didn’t just come from Belfast and Derry, if the people didn’t want Sinn Fein policy implemented they would not have voted for the party they did so get over it.

    Seems to me your brand of republicanism is preoccupied with admonishing other republicans and not confronting the illegal British occupation of this country.

    Perhaps you could enlighten us as to your strategy of getting the Brits out of our country.

  • Henry94

    So the British agent thinks he is entitled to decide what a genuine republican is? And appoint himself spooksman (pun intended) for the vast legions of the allegedly disillusioned.

    Of course there is nothing to stop anyone going back to the armed struggle if they think it is more effective than politics. Very few do.

    And if they agree that politics is the way but don’t like Sinn Fein’s approach they are perfectly entitled to run themselves and see what the people think.

  • martin ingram

    Henry and Belfast White,

    The point here lads is a simple one. I dont think the party (Sinn Fein) is the best way of achieving a United Ireland. I believe it has set back the cause by many years.

    I dont want violence, it achieves nothing and NI is a perfect foil for that argument.

    What is needed is a new party free from British influence, I dont believe there are many on this board who honestly dont believe the RM has not been manoeuvred into the sidings. There are those like Pat Mc who argue the party line come what may, it is a shame but Pat may even shop in M%S himself.

    Martin.

  • Henry94

    What is needed is a new party free from British influence

    You are probably the most ineffective shit-stirer I have ever had the pleasure of laughing it.

  • martin ingram

    Thanks Henry

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    Quote”While they have a lot of answers to give over the Scap affair, to accuse either Adams or McGuinness of ‘working for the Brits’ beggars belief – in my humble opinion anyway – yet that is what those who listen to the likes of ‘Martin Ingram’ would have us believe. UnQuote

    Why do you think the NIO stopped ( In secret) the police investigation and prosecution of Martin McGuiness in relation the murder of Franko Hegarty.

    Three witnesses prepared to give evidence and the police had other forensic evidence Why do you think it was stopped?

    Just curious.

    Martin.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Martin,

    ‘There are those like Pat Mc who argue the party line come what may, it is a shame but Pat may even shop in M%S himself.’

    Could you give me an example of what ‘party line’ i have argued. Is to question your authenticity and all round honesty arguing a party line? BTW the latter part of your sentence escapes me, please enlighten me and the rest of the contributors with a basic explanation.

  • Henry94

    Pat

    I took it as a cowardly attempt to imply that you may be a British agent.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    Martin

    There is a no ad hominem rule on the site. Please lay off the personal stuff.

  • elfinto

    Martin,

    So apart from yourself and Scap who else was going to testify?

    Perhaps they did not prosecute because 1. there was little chance of a conviction 2. the Brits were more interested in negociations and felt that Adams and McGuinness – having shown an interest in electoral politics – might be people who had the courage to negociate.

  • Richard Dowling

    Notice the pattern. A Sinn Fein electioneering team were
    caught in Dublin, kitted out with lump hammers, mace sprays,
    Garda uniforms, the names, addresses and drinking habits of
    Government Ministers, At least one of that team was a known
    IRA hardman. Sinn Fein blamed securocats and the media for
    picking on them.

    Aengus O Snodgrass SF (MP-TD) denies all responsibility.

    So now we have a Sinn Fein paranormal electioneering
    active service unit (caught in flagrante delicto), mirroring
    the parajudicial system of Frank Connolly’s Centre for Public
    Inquiry, mirroring the paramilitary ethos of the IRA nutting
    squads, mirroring the para-diplomatic credentials of Niall
    Connolly in Havana. Mirroring the propaganda spouted every
    day in Daily Ireland. All determined to further the propagation
    of the faith in the IRA’s mission to the subversion of our country
    and our world.

  • Martin Ingram,
    Sorry for the delay in replying

    You ask what is my position?

    To support SF, and not stab them in the back.

    A Truth and Reconciliation Hearing for victims, similar to South Africa.

    Where we differ is that I believe, and have argued passionately that the close co-operation between SF and the Brit Gov’t is a good thing for nationalists and Republicans.

    Its a pincer movement on unionism

    Your diatribe on sell outs belongs to a bygone era. Gerry Adams and MMG are handling their corner very well, though its been a hard year; we expect much of the spotlight to fall on the DUP in the coming months.
    No room for fifth-columnists I’m afraid

  • Crataegus

    I know there has been long standing disquiet among some Republicans.

    I known that the allegations in South Down have more than a ring of truth.

    I known there are bound to be spooks in ALL political parties here and also in Community Groups etc. Bound to be.

    I know the British Government has its own agenda and is bound to pursue it by all means possible.

    I know that if another political party were set up it too would have its spooks.

    Some allegations against SF are likely to be true, the question is how many? The best stance is not denial, but reflect on what you have heard elsewhere, personal experience and make up your own mind because what is obvious is it is difficult to know who to trust.

    I am off the opinion that to date these revelations will not fundamentally undermine SFs support, but I do feel that we have reached some sort of crossroads, and if this continues SFs credibility will erode. However politically the main problem preventing this is lack of viable alternative in many areas.

    What puzzles me is not the recent accusations, but what now are the British long term objectives? I am of the view that it is time the British stopped trying to covertly manipulate. The rumours created are destabilising as people can put their own spin on rumour. They are counter productive and make progress more difficult.

    With regards other parties I wouldn’t feel too smug. How many of you can confidently say that there is no dirt sitting there for future revelation? With this in mind I would expect all sorts of pain and allegations to descend on the DUP at some critical point in the future. Say in a future leadership contest.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    No the three witnesses were independant to the Security Forces. They also had foresnic evidence to support the crime and of course they had a potential state witness Freddy Scap. Lucky that!

    Efinto. Your answer if you were decent would have taken the following line. Produce the evidenc and put him before the courts like any other citizen of the state. If the courts find him guilty then so be it, if they dont he is a vindicated man. Shame on you.

    Now clearly, the policew ere keen for the prosecution to go forward indeed the decision was not even put to the DPP. The decision to abort was a political one NIO.

    Slugger Admin Staff. I hope you will apply your last comments consistently. This is a robust debate and not one that you should take sides upon. The rubbish wrote lately about a respected Journalist on this site is testimony to the point.

    Pat. You very rarely engage the topic, you tend to play the man, I dont mind that but dont whinge when the flack comes back. You follow a very narrow Sinn Fein line and according to you Sinn Fein can do no wrong. Thats fine but I will point that out at each turn.

    Martin.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Martin Ingram,

    I engage the topic all the time and that is the problem you seem to have. Though if you have a problem with the motivational arguments that is your problem

    I have been attacked on this site by people with a lot more integrity than you so as such your cowardly sniping doesn’t add to much. The fact that you tried to imply that I may be a British Agent simply because I have taken you to task is educational to readers of the site. It is also an indicator of how wanton are the allegations you bandy about seemingly without regard.
    In fact I think you have damaged yourself as a credible source of information if you can be provoked so readily.

    Could you also give an example of the SF party line that I have followed and where I have stated SF can do no wrong?

  • Does quoting almost verbatim from a 6 year old paragraph from An Phoblacht/Republican News count?

  • martin ingram

    Pat,

    I have no idea if you are a Britsih Agent or not! but now that you mention it you do seem to fit the profile? You seem to follow a narrow Sinn Fein doctrine, not really engaging the substance of a debate. I will however keep reminding you though that it is not right to play the man? we should both kick the ball.

    At times I have been accused of being a British Agent also, so you are in good company. To those who are ignorant of what the difference between an Agent and a Handler please ask, before engaging mouth.

    To follow the party line with a high degree of dogma is a common feature of those who have recently have been exposed as Agents, Dennis D is a good case of that. Now for the legal argument. No libel or slander is involved in accusing any person of being an Agent of the state that you are a legal citizen. For example Sean Maguire stated clearly in any paper (Daily Ireland or Andytown news ) that would carry his denial on more than one occassion that he was going to sue ALL those who printed this untruth , ie when he was first exposed as being an Agent a couple of years ago. Did he sue ? Indeed he did not. Freddy Scap in a similar boat to Sean threatened to sue, did he? indeed he did not. Indeed Freddy went to court while Sinn Fein was still defending him in public to argue that I ( Ingram) Owed him Freddy a duty of confidentiality. He also asked the State to arrest me for offences under the OSA.

    You see it is every citizens duty to help the law enforcement authorities in the commission of their activities. In other words it is your civic duty to inform upon illegal activities. So Pat are you up for it, if so contact me on my e mail and I will put you in contact with a responsible person who unlike me is engaged in this work. A friend of a friend if you like.

    Martin.

    .

  • martin ingram

    Spirit Level.

    Thanks.

    1. Ok

    2. I am with you 100% on that one.

    3. Well let us agree to disagree.

    In regard to fifth columnist. You indeed have a big problem with that one and turning a blind eye is not really a good tactic, it has failed you, would you not agree this last few years.

    Have a good day.

    Martin

  • ? 4 Martin Ingram

    Are you 100% certain, do you know for certain that Maguire is an agent? Or do you just believe him to be?

  • martin ingram

    4 Martin Ingram.

    I purposely did not add any comment upon that subject in my above piece. I was making the pont that he said he would do a lot of things like Freddy said he would do, but never ever issued any proceedings, again just like Freddy.

    Martin

  • andy

    Martin I.

    Sorry if this is off topic, but do you have any information on the guy who proceeded Freddie?
    Can’t remember his name but he was ex-Royal Marines.
    Heard all sorts of rumours and counter-rumours about him.

  • martin ingram

    Andy,

    John Joe Magee.

    He and Freddy worked together on the IRA Security Dept.

    Not wishing to be rude Andy but he is part of the past , Thank god.

    Martin

  • elfinto

    In a British court helping the state to fight against an insurgency is regarded in positive light and therfore cannot be regarded as either slander or libel. Therefore Sean Magh Uidhir or anyone else accused by the spooks cannot sue.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    It is the same in the Republic too.

    I note you avoided the Martin Mcguinness issue, do you agree the case should have or indeed still could be placed before the courts.

    Martin

  • elfinto

    Martin Ingram,

    In a word, NO. It appears the British governement didn’t think so either. And before you say he must be an agent, the reason is REALPOLITIK.

  • elfinto

    .. or lack of evidence that would stand up in even a Diplock court.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    Its taken a bit of time BUT we have got there in the end Thanks for sdmitting that. Cheers.

    Martin.

    P.S. I cant wait for the day when the tapes are made public, you will be the first I call . It might not be Realpolitik but its certainly justice!

  • elfinto

    Martin

    Maybe you are right and McGuiness should stand trial. The day after Blair is charged with starting illegal wars under false pretences!

  • elfinto

    BTW Martin, I see those true republicans who you admire so much left a car bomb outside a hotel in Armagh today. I’m sure you will be the first to congratulate them for this heroic but ultimately pointless action. Soon Ireland will be free, eh!

  • Yoda

    I asked this question elsewhere, but I got nowhere.

    Could any dissident republican please tell me what it is they want? An even more unreconstructed idea of “Irishness” and the “Irish nation.” If not, then what? (Genuine questions, btw.)

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    No violence will achieve OUR goal.I worked hard and long to defeat violence.
    What I want is a truly democratic party free from British influence. I dont think that is too much to ask do you?

    Martin

  • elfinto

    Martin,

    If you are suggesting that anti-Provo republicans should form a political party then I am all for it. What is stopping them? If they have a better strategy than SF I’d like to see it. Of course I’m sure that any new party would attract it’s fair share of intelligence ‘assets’. Don’t you?

    Far from condemning SF for making painful compromises, I commmend them for going the extra mile to secure peace. Compromise is not the same as capitulation, despite what some of the merchants of doom would have us believe. If we were to accept their logic – i.e. compromise is treachery – then Ian Paisley is a visionary and a statesman.

  • andy

    Martin
    fair enough
    I just thought that if both Scap and Magee had been informers then it becomes that much more believable that the Republican Movement had all sorts of other informers running around unmolested for years.
    However, I have to say, for a movement so infiltrated (to read some newspapers) Sinn Fein haven’t done too badly. Their vote has consistently gone up, they have won a lot of small tactical victories… and the IRA campagin was never going to lead to a united ireland anyway.
    A lot of the policy shift on things like decommissioning and an agreement to pursue non-illegal methods can be traced to specific incidents (eg pressure arisingout of the Mccarthy murder) rather than being blamed at the door of infiltrators.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    Ok, Your last piece I believe was an honest reflection of your views.

    Yes, any party is open to infiltration.The problem with Sinn Fein is it is manned by a larger than average number of persons who let us say have a colourful past.At least for a political party. That makes them attractive and easy to penetrate.

    That said Sinn Fein is also guided and if I am being totally honest here, it is a party in the midst of a dictatorship. Now, you know that and I know that. So let us waste no time arguing the semantics of the reality.

    I have no confidence in Sinn Fein making decisions free from British influence, that is my contention. The party structure is corrupt and the recent Down articles demonstrate that clearly. I argued for the disbandment of the RUC and a completely reformed police force i.e. one which every officer would have to re-apply for his job. Why because it was corrupted. Not all police officers were bad but enough, to make me come to that conclusion , just like not all shinners are bad, But enough are.

    When your computer is corrupted by a virus you clear the hard drive and start again, any compromise to the integrity can not be tolerated.The same goes for Sinn Fein .

    In respect to Sinn Fein going the extra mile to achieve peace. Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

    Paisley is a man I believe is a bigot and a man who I regard with revulsion BUT he does remain consistent and you get with him every thing he says good AND BAD. With Adams in contrast you dont.

    Andy. Keep tuned.

    Martin

  • elfinto

    Martin,

    Surely it’s up to the electorate to decide the future of SF. They have been doing very well recently. I suspect that most of these allegations are designed to undermine SF’s electoral support which is at an all-time high. They might have some effect but I suspect this will be fairly minimal. Time will tell.

    It’s time the anti-Provo republicans started their own political party and went before the electorate. So far they seem unable to do anything more than bitch from the sidelines. Surely in the wake of these allegations they have enough critical mass to get a political alternative going.

    I suspect the reason we have not seen a political project to date is that the anti-Provo republicans come from such disparate points of view that they are unable to agree on a political strategy. Maybe you could help them out Martin!