Donaldson and after…

Suzanne Breen with various reactions from Republicans who are disaffected by the Donaldson affair.

Update: more detail on the South Down angle from last week’s Down Democrat.

  • martin ingram

    How unlucky can you be.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    How relevant can you be?

  • martin ingram

    Very, just wait till the Tribunerals.

    Martin Ingram.

    PS. Why did Adams ignore Price? How unlucky can you be

  • elfinto

    This is but another example of tout-mania. Some people won’t be happy until Gerry and / or Martin are in a wooden box. That’s where all this is leading.

  • elfinto

    Perhaps that’s where all this is supposed to lead – assassinations.

  • elfinto

    You have let the mask slip ingram. The British already got loyalists to shoot Gerry back in 84. Now they are trying to get Paisleyite republicans to do their dirty work.

  • paul devlin

    How the hell do u know what ur talkin about el finto?

  • heck

    ever think this might be what martin ingram and his “spooky” friends might have planned.

    I believe that american intelligence almost destroyed itself under james jesus angleton’s theory that they were manipulated by the KGB. I think this period was called “wilderness of mirrors”

    This is what is going on here and all the commentators should read about that period in american intelligence history.

    This is what the Brits, along with their friends in the media and trying to make happen in SF

  • elfinto

    Paul,

    Believers in ‘armed struggle’ are angry about the ‘sell-out’ that has taken place. Now they are being told day after day by media reports emanating from ‘security sources’ that their erstwhile leaders were in league with the Brits all along. What is the traditional penalty for collaborators? You guessed it. And if you didn’t, think Beal na mBlath!

    It’s not rocket science.

  • pauldevlin

    Elfinto.

    The IRA are a terrorist group. As simple as that. They tried to murder for people for decades and if it turns out their leaders are informers then all the better. The idea of a United Ireland is a pipe dream and it will never happen. What have you ever done for the republican cause? Are you a fireside general?

  • paul devlin

    People like elfinto believe the Troubles were one sided, ie the fault of the British. They were the fault of terrorists who wanted to blow people and buildings to pieces because of some outdated and romantic notion stretching back to the mystical time of ‘celtic’ ireland. The IRA is a bunch of right wing facists who glorified nationalism as a be all and end all. When will you see that elfinto? They are not left wing guerillas, they are right wing maniacs. The recent spy allegations only show the bankruptcy of those who run the republican terror machine.

  • elfinto

    Now I remember. You are the guy who sent me an abusive e-mail a while back. You obviously don’t like my arguments. Well, free speech and all that.

  • Fionna

    Wow Paul tell us how you really feel.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    You seem to be stuck in the past my friend. The IRA has gone away and poses no threat today. Look how kind and considerate the IRA/Sinn Fein were to Freddy Scappaticci. And now Denis Donaldson, lovely man. In respect to Denis, the shinners even organised a car ( Posh) to take him and my mate Peter to a hotel in Dublin town centre for a press conference. Now that was kind, come on credit were it is due. I wonder what Paddy Flood would say about that one? probibly wrong time , wrong place, wrong tout.

    At this press conference for Denis he boldly told those nice people at RTE that he had been working for the Brits for over twenty years. It was all smiles and jovial enough, not like the old days eh Jab up the arse and WOW South Armagh. I am told they (Sinn Fein) even bought him dinner and a nice bottle of Chablis to round of the evening.

    This is a new era Elfinto, a new beginning, touts are welcome in the movement today, indeed if you are a dissenter like Dolores Price or Anthony Mc you would be seen as vermin and be asked to leave the party. How things have changed, thats all luck or lack of it in Paddys case.

    Martin

  • Plum Duff

    Martin
    You’ve plenty of smoke and mirrors at your command but Suzanne Breen can supply you with a bigger spoon.

  • kate

    It would make your head spin how many times within the last few weeks activists have come forward in the media to say they warned the leadership about Donaldson, Glenholmes and the others. From as far away as America Martin Galvin has said when he was friendly with the leadership that he raised fears about Glenholmes. Sinn Fein in Scotland had the similar experience as those in the United States. Now we have one of the Price sisters, coming forward to say she had doubts about Glenholmes. Either they were very stupid, or willingly turned a blind eye.

    On top of that as the article states Donaldson was used to STRENGTHEN the leadership of Adams and McGuinness, but as always the most important part is at the end.

    This question is asked, ”The British could have used Scap as a state witness against Adams or McGuinness, like MI5 and the FBI used Dave Rupert against Mickey McKevitt, but they didn’t. We HAVE to ask WHY the British didn’t want to harm the leadership???”

    I don’t think these people are questioning in order to put people in boxes, it’s like the other poster said, times have changed and in other threads on this very board many have noted that times have changed regarding this issue. But there is still accountability. Many of the people quoted in this article by Breen are ex-prisoners, many in the North have had loved ones make the ultimate sacrifice. The leadership are accountable to those that volunteered and supported them thru 25 odd years, is it too much to ask that they explain themselves??

  • Seano

    Martin Ingram

    “You seem to be stuck in the past my friend. The IRA has gone away and poses no threat today.”

    You are right, Martin. The IRA do not pose a threat today, and that is why we are seeing spies and informers remaining above ground. However, I wouldn’t completely count out any remaining threat (real or percieved) from dissident groups. And of course, everyone seems to have written off any dissident threat as “unorganized” and with “no support” from grass root republicans.

    And what would be wrong with letting the dissidents have a go, while Gerry and Martin try and work their political strategy?

  • elfinto

    Martin,

    Yesterday your excuse for hiding behind a pseudonym is because you are under an IRA death threat. Either they are a threat or they aren’t. Which is it?

  • elfinto

    Kate,

    I am surprised at you, taking this scurrilous nonsense at face value. Ditto for Marion Price and her convenient claims. If Dickie Glenholmes was a tout in 1973 when the Old Bailey bombing occurred in 1973, as Marion seems to be alleging, how come he subsequently spent 10 years at Her Majesty’s Pleasure. Wise up!

  • paul devlin

    free dickie

  • Robert Keogh

    The question I don’t see being asked is why are the security services burning their agents now?

    The only people who could know which members of SF are spies are the security services or maybe SF. Even if SF know they are hardly likely to be leaking it – just look at the problems the allegations are causing for them.

    So that leaves us with the british security services as the obvious culprits.

    Then there is the timing. If these were disgruntled or rogue agents (with no particular political axe to grind) this information would likely have emerged sometime in the last ten years. It hasn’t. It’s emerging now that Tony & Bert are saddling up for their big push. To me it appears that those who don’t want SF in power in NI are trying to throw obstacles in the restoration of power sharing at stormont. Are the leakers acting independently because they share the DUPs perspective or at the behest of their masters?

  • kate

    Free Denis!!

  • kate

    Haven’t all the touts named with the exception of one done time at Her Majesty’s Pleasure?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    The problem for Martin et al is how to remain relevant.

    Sean o Callaghan faced the same problem, he got his 15 minutes but it wasn’t enough. It was then that he started remembering details of events that seemed to have escaped him for years.
    On the back of the Pat Finucane campaign Sean remembered that he had attended a meeting in Donegal with Finucane. Yet for years Sean didn’t mention such a pertinent fact.
    During the GFA negotiations Sean then remembered that he had attended a meeting with Adams and Mc Guinness where the talk was to have Hume assassinated. Even Hume didn’t buy it and thought poor old Sean was nuts.
    Some facts did elude Sean though, like his admiision of the Corcoran murder than he then subsequently forgot when questioned by the Gardai.

    Sean seemed to be able to make himself relevant to the Sindo et al with fanastic recollections at important times. In fact he even formed a fan club and got invited to dinner parties.

    Step forward the even less relevant Martin Mc Gartland. Not content with his housing estate billet Martin wrote his ’50 dead men walking’ tomb. For a while Martin was relevant again and even got a few gigs on Talkback. But things move on and back to obscurity went Martin. But hey, what about the other 50 men that he had forgotten about the first time. Yip you guessed it and out came another book. However, there was no Rocky series for Martin and the last time he was heard of was he was dodging bullets in Whitby.

    Who next, well why not Martin I. Martin’s 15 minutes passed even quicker than most. Even after the Stakeknife affair the problem was how to appear relevant. So now we have a steady drip feed from Martin and a name dropped here and there. He gets Jim Cusack attention and that just proves that you can hock any old shit around the Sundays.

    Most of us come one to Slugger for a bit of crack and the odd political argument. Martin uses it as a career move to try and promote film rights and the next offering that must be just around the corner.
    Oh the indignity of it all. Let it go Martin you’ve been sussed and the more hysterical the claims the more pathetic you appear. Sorry to be the one to have to tell you.

  • I think this period was called “wilderness of mirrors”

    That is exactly what they are trying to do Heck but they are not succeeding.

    Your comrade of yesterday is still your comrade today and tomorrow and the next day.

    He/she is your comrade until proved otherwise.

    Martin

    I would have thought that you boys would have used subtlety when trying to perform your psy ops.

    It is very predictable and almost laughable.

    Keep trying Martin, we know you love centre stage

  • aquifer

    “Sean then remembered that he had attended a meeting with Adams and Mc Guinness where the talk was to have Hume assassinated. Even Hume didn’t buy it and thought poor old Sean was nuts. ”

    What would Hume know. The form of words used by SF to “deny” this one were peculiar.

    Marxist dialectics perhaps.

    The PIRA campaign was going nowhere but an extended walkabout in an abbatoir followed by a stopover in an all male youth hostel. The whining celtic pipes as background music would not have improved things much. Thank god for informers.

    The GFA became an act of self determination by all the irish people. The British are within their rights to insist that its terms on non violence are complied with, using agents if necessary.

    Are politics that hard?

    Or is it thinking without someone waving a pistol about that hurts?

  • Yoda

    The GFA became an act of self determination by all the irish people. The British are within their rights to insist that its terms on non violence are complied with, using agents if necessary.

    I’m glad you’re so comfortable with the state killing people on all sides through their agents in paramilitary groups. Violence for non-violence’s sake is very ’80s.

    A state that acts in this manner forgoes the moral highground and provides justifcation for more of the same.

    In many ways it is worse for the state to act in this manner than it is for its citizens.

  • oceallaigh

    I am surprised that people give this type of “drive by ” journalism any credibility at all .N Ireland seems to be up to its ass in “allegators ” right now but all their allegations might come back to bite them eventually .

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto,

    Unlike others I have never been anywhere else.I have been working towards exposing these criminals for years behind the scenes. Indeed just before Christmas this year I asked Sir John Steven to initiate an investigation into Scaps Perjury.This letter was not made public.

    I have copied it below.

    My Lord,

    In relation to my telephone call of Wednesday 14/12/05 and Thursday 15/12/05 with your officers I make the following points.

    Subject Mr Alfredo Scappaticci AKA Army Agent Steak knife

    1.I enclose copies of the Affidavit sworn by the above named individual in Belfast High Court proceedings. I believe this affidavit to be an offence in that it commits perjury.
    2.I am certain that this Affidavit is untrue and I request you to investigate the contents in relation to Mr Scappaticci claiming and presenting himself to the Court as not the Army Agent referred to as Steak Knife.
    3.As you are well aware this man is indeed the man who worked for the Force Research Unit for many years, indeed at your request some years ago at Heathrow Airport on more than one occasion I met with the now Chief Constable of the PSNI and other senior police officers. At these meetings which I secretly recorded for my benefit and security. Your officers freely and openly discussed many subjects, which included the above named individual. As you are aware I was not willing at that moment in time to make a detailed statement to your inquiry regarding this individuals activities for fear of being stuffed by your inquiry. I did make a statement in respect of the Finucane case. Subsequent events have in my opinion borne out that gut feeling that I was right to not fully engage with your so-called inquiries.
    4.To aid your inquiries in respect of Mr Scappaticci .I would respectfully but based upon experience suggest you contact the now Chief Constable of the PSNI Hugh Orde, The MOD, The ex Handlers of the Agent and of course documentation you have which details his activities. I am certain once these individuals see sight of the Scappaticci affidavit, they will confirm the act of perjury. Should they not confirm Scappaticci role, they may themselves become involved in a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
    5.If you should experience any difficulties in these matters, which I am sure you will not, please contact me because I may be able to aid you! But only after certain individuals have gone on the record.

    May I take this opportunity on congratulating you on your retirement from the Police and of course your appointment to the House of Lords. I am certain you are aware that I have been critical of you in regards to your so-called inquiries into collusion in NI between Para militaries and members of the Security forces. I remain firmly convinced that you have been a hindrance to the truth about the issue of collusion but nonetheless I wish you and your family well in your retirement and I hope our differences of opinion in respect of your NI inquiries will not prejudice your investigation in relation to my allegation of Mr Scappaticci and his commission of perjury in the Belfast High Court.
    I am certain you will not need to contact me further but if you do you may contact me via my solicitor.

    editted
    Strand
    London
    WC2R 3JJ

    PS.Elfinto. As regards threat. My piece above was tongue in cheek old chap.

    pps. Pat, I am on Radio Free Eirann on Sat evening, care to join me?

  • martin ingram

    Yoda.

    You are 100% correct.

  • Can anyone doubt that Martin Ingram is simply on an ego trip for someone and somethings after reading about his phone calls to Lord Stevens’ officers in December, and the letter he allegedly sent to him later – what the above e-mail, it seems, is a copy of?

    The bold-faced arrogance of this headline grabber! How anyone, particularly the most important counterterrorist in the UK, could take his demands, warnings, belated familiarity, etc., seriously is beyond me. And I shall publically eat crow in any reasonable way possible if proven wrong.

    One can only assume that Ingram is going out of his way to make sure that there is no prosecution of Scap aka ‘Stake Knife’because he has known all along that there was not the slightest chance that there would ever be one.

    And I say this after having made similar complaints about ‘My Lord’ after the mistaken re-arrest of Sean Kelly, the 7/7 bombings in London, and why there will never be a public inquiry of this fiasco in my articles in the Trowbridge Archive at codshit.com. But I never thought of writing Stevens to tell him what a lousy job he has done for as long as I can recall.

    In sum, Ingram’s tempest-in-a-teapot is a diversion to protect other touts, especially ‘Steak Knife’- the one who did all the important dirty work for the Brits, like the capture of the Eksund, allowing the Loughgall cull to go ahead, etc., ad nauseam.

  • elfinto

    So Martin Ingram is going on Radio Free Eireann now. Amazing! Many of the so-called ‘dissident’ republicans are being led by the nose by Brit intelligence – exactly the allegation which they are levelling at the Provo leadership. What a bunch of dupes!

    Yes, Adams and McGuiness have undoubtably alienated a large number of people with their neo-Stalinist leadership style. However this does not make them British agents.

    The Provos had different leaders during the 1970’s. Were there informers within their ranks during the 1970s? Does the Pope say mass? Were the 70s leadership completely duped by the Brits during the ceasefire of 1975? I refer you to the recently released state papers from that year for the answer.

    To the republicans who would give this stuff credence – get a sense of perspective and realise that you being subjected to what are termed psychological operations.

    Not fooled

  • aquifer

    Yoda, etc

    “I’m glad you’re so comfortable with the state killing people on all sides through their agents in paramilitary groups. Violence for non-violence’s sake is very ‘80s.”

    You presume too much.

    All I posted was: ‘The GFA became an act of self determination by all the irish people. The British are within their rights to insist that its terms on non violence are complied with, using agents if necessary.’

    Construing my post to justify state killing is a step to far. Screwing with the heads of people who refuse to believe the war is over is OK, but that does not have to mean blowing their brains out.

    Of course, if you believe paramilitaries should be given free reign to shoot whoever whenever without interference, that is your point of view.

    But I would not then accept your kind offer of a lift.

  • Baluba

    I don’t think anyone really is fooled elfinto. But there are those who really WANT to believe it. Sad really.

  • elfinto

    Baluba,

    The people who you are referring to are no doubt the same people who want to forget about the activities of one David Rupert – a man who is dodgy with a capital ‘D’ as in Dodge City, USA.

    David Rupert, for those who need reminding was an American with convictions for fraud who had also been bankrupted a couple of times. Yet he was given access to high-level meetings of the so called ‘real’ IRA by the lost leader of true republicans, Micky McKevitt. Unfortunately for Micky, who now lives in Portlaoise jail, Dave Rupert was a FBI plant who subsequently put him behind bars.

    But then again ‘true’ republicans (or Fenian Paisleyites as I prefer to call them) don’t want to know that. Sorry for mentioning it.

  • Mickhall

    As Ms Breen has been disparaged by some here, she gives an interview on Radio Free Eireanne, Sat 7th Jan. The interview is about half way through the program and can be found here.

    http://archive.wbai.org/

  • Mickhall

    I don’t think anyone really is fooled elfinto. But there are those who really WANT to believe it. Sad really.

    Posted by Baluba

    I find this post insulting, there is no Irish Republican on earth who is not aware the lengths the British Security Services will go to place their touts within the Republican Movement, Sadly at times and for a host of reasons they succeed in their foul task and successfully infiltrate informers at different levels of the movement. Republicans do not expect their leaders to be supermen and women and are well aware they will at times be unable to combat British infiltration of the organization. All Republicans ask of their leadership is they are ever conscious of this fact and take the appropriate precautions to combat infiltration. It is not throwing stones at the current leadership nor supporting dissidents to feel the current PRM leadership has failed in its task to do the aforementioned. To fail to rotate the senior ranks of the PRM security department was an appalling blunder unequalled in a revolutionary organization as far as im aware. It was such a negation of duty that we are still not fully aware how many volunteers lost there lives or were imprisoned because of it.

    The Adams leadership just prior to Mr Scappiticci and Mr Donaldson being confirmed as touts, made public statements of support for the two men, which in the former man’s case they new to be untrue. When any Republicans questioned this behavior they were insulted in much the same manner as Baluba and elfinto have posted to this thread. Very few Republicans believe Gerry Adam’s is a tout, but what we do know is he is not a God. Nor is he beyond making mistakes or receiving human criticisms, nor is he to high faluting to answer for his mistakes to his rank and file let alone his electorate. Republicans understand the pressure he works under, if he had behaved in a more humble way and trusted his fellow republicans, he would have gained respect and not the contempt many republicans now feel towards him.

    Sadly what I would term as non military dissidents were either forced out of SF by a section of the Adam’s leadership including Denis Donaldson in the manner so graphically explained in the Down Democrat article. Others eventually resigned from SF because they could no longer take the authoritarian Republicanism as practiced by the current leadership; i e support us, do as we say, or we will destroy you politically.

    I would just ask those to whose lips the word dissident comes so readily, what did they think men and women would do once all democratic space within SF was shut down to them. These are people who have spent their entire adult lives as Republicans, often making enormous personal sacrifices. Do you really believe these are the type of individuals who will turn there backs on all they believed, go home and shut their doors to the world. If you do, you understand little of what motivates Irish Republicans.

  • elfinto

    Mick,

    Criticising Adams & McGuinness is one thing. Accusing long-standing republicans of being touts and informers is quite another – especially if these revelations are originating within MI5 or Special Branch.

    Joe Haughey, Sean Magh Uidhir, Dickie Glenholmes, Tom Hartley, &tc have all been subjected to these scurrilous allegations. Should these men have their names blackened on the say so of ‘Martin Ingram’, ‘Kevin Fulton’ or any other faceless employees of the British Security Services?

    Fintan

  • Mickhall

    Fintan,

    My position is this, I have no idea with any certainty whether or not any of the individuals you mentioned are touts and in truth I doubt few people do. The problem is, when the Adam’s leadership knowingly denied Freddie Scap was a tout, they left the door open for the British Security Services to name any current or former member of the PRM as a tout; and those so named, will have no one to turn to with any authority that they have not been disloyal to the movement. The reason being by denying Scappiticci this leaderships word on this matter became worthless and not only with their media contacts.

    If the people recently named as touts are no such thing my heart goes out to them, [and to their families even if they are] and for SF to advise them to see a solicitor is silly and worse than useless, as any court case would end up before a British Court in which national security would come to the fore.

    In any case all those recently names after Mr Donaldson was outed, are red herrings IMO as they have all, bar one been named before. All I can say is thank Christ the war is over as the back lanes of a certain County would be knee deep in dead bodies. Although similar words were used in another context, this will not go away you know. Some way needs to be found to bring this whole sorry tale of British infiltration of Irish public life out into the open and thus bring it to an end once and all.

    I wish you well.

  • elfinto

    Mick,

    I agree 100% with you on the Scap issue. I’m no cheerleader of G & M. I just don’t understand why any Irish republican would take allegations against republicans coming from the British Security Services at face value, yet that is what I am hearing from a number of anti-Provo republicans.

    As you rightly said the British have and will go to any lengths to penetrate republican organisations so what is new. I canot see how the present tout hysteria which we are witnessing at the moment benefits in any way the 25% of the people in the north who vote republican.

    I cannot understand for the life of me why republican radio shows in the US are giving the likes of ‘Martin Ingram’ a platform for his psy-ops (if what MI says is true). And I do not understand why Marion Price is publicly saying that a certain person could be an informer because the Branch called to his house.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    Let us deal with Facts here my friend.

    Why do you think the NIO stopped the prosecution against Martin McGUINNESS FOR THE ABDUCTION AND MURDER OF Frank Hegarty.

    The other factor is this. Sinn Fein lies, it lied about Freddy it lied about the OTR negotiations etc. It lies more than my wife on a sat afternoon shopping trip.

    Do you remember when I told you about Freddy and the world and his dog within Sinn Fein stood on a platform and defended him knowing that he had killed many, many Volunteers of the Irish Republican Army. If thats leadership boy, I dont want it and neither should you.

    Like Jim Cusack and Anthony Mc have said on more tha one occassion.Ingram has as a history of getting it right. Now I dont know if you are a betting man Elfinto? but if you were to read the bare form ? The shinners would be a 100/1 against shot and Ingram would be long long odds on.

    I first went on the American show over two years ago, everything I said then has come true. That is why they have asked me back, afterall you want exactly what I want. A United Ireland. Me and you disagree on many things , but eh thats life, but the voting public are not fools, neither are Republicans its just the leadership have had you over for too long.

    Martin.

  • Yoda

    But I would not then accept your kind offer of a lift.

    Thanks for playing.

  • I’m a plant water me

    Several people on this thread should hang their heads in shame close down their link to sluggerotoole and never post on it again.

    On a previous item posted by Mick by the same reporter of this story there was an avalanche of demands to name and shame the reporters contact and informant for the piece without care or consideration for the informants actual safety or enforced social change that would occur if such a course of action was undertaken.

    Now we have a scenario where the same reporter in the same paper on the same day makes many startling revelations in a second story that pale the first story to insignificance. Strange thing is that in this story the reporter does not have to protect the sources involved and they are named with positions and history and dates. The story deals with the touchy subject of how British Sinn Fein ousted Irish Sinn Fein from the South Down area and had a Stalinist/New Sinn Fein purge of all republicans in the surrounding areas. How the most revered Sinn Fein politician of all turned his back on an active service unit operating in the belly of the beast when they reported an alleged British Agent placed in a very sensitive position to him personally, only for him to take no action whatsoever. How the Irish republican Army are rapidly becoming the British republican Army and in both cases that’s republican with a small “r”.

    Strange how here is the “meat on the bones” “the foundations” “the entire fabric” “the sources” and what is the response from the alleged republican hoard who roam Sluggerotoole as Orwellian like comment police with finger cudgels at the ready, well just like their leader big “G” nothing really the usual ostrich like burying of the head in the sand and perpetuating the state of denial is the order of the day.
    But like the true “G” men that they are, they still demand that only their evidence is valid, only their thoughts are relevant, only their actions are excusable, and anything or anyone else can be dismissed or sullied if enough whisper, innuendo, smear, distortion or outright lie can be heaped upon it.

    Please leave Slugger to those who wish to debate and challenge to teach or learn to attack or defend, because the roaming clan of invertebrates that threaten the very existence of debate have become strangely silent on this story passing it off as a media myth or a British scam.

    There is no scam the British won, there is no myth they achieved the victory through extremely heavy infiltration both politically and militarily of the Republican movement.

  • Mickhall

    ‘Posted by I’m a plant water me’

    Great stuff, what a handle 🙂

  • Yoda

    The tough questions need to be put to Gerry and company. Personally, I’d love to know how/ why British operatives were left so long in highly sensitive places in the ‘RA. Incompetency? Deliberately?

    I also don’t doubt that SF are now committed to peace. But I’m troubled by how exactly the RM was brought to that point: agents, purges, proxy-bombs, etc.

    Would these revelations split the RM?

    I also have a question for the so-called “dissident republicans”: what is it that you fellas want? Is it an even more unreconstructed version of Irishness and the Irish nation? If not, then what?

  • kate

    Mick Hall, posted ”The people recently named as touts…for SF to advise them to go to a solicitor is silly and worse than useless”

    Colm Heatley can tell us why, he writes in Village Magazine ”For those northern based republicans named in the press as informers there is little legal redress. N.Irelands courts do not regard it as libellous or defamatory to claim that a person is working for the British authorities. As the Dublin supreme Court did in 1972 the Northern Courts take the view that every citizen should help the sovereign government of Northern Ireland.”

    Reads to me like every citizen has a duty to report things to the authorities and it will not be considered a crime. If SF, a party not adverse to using the legal system when it suits, has only this advice to offer these men, then their fate and reputations as informers is sealed. Should people not question why they would hand out such silly advice? What good will it do Tom Hartley or anyone else to see or threaten with a solicitor?? None. Has any of the men mentioned faced the cameras to publicly state they are not informers since they have been accused of this crime? NO, their attitude is ignore it and it will go away. It hasn’t gone away you know, and as I said in a previous post on the spy issue, is it to much to ask that they explain themselves?? If they do not come before the media and give their version, and they have no legal redress, then one can only assume that they have something to hide. I would look forward to seeing buck,Tom, Sean, and Dickie publicly speak out which any innocent person would do.

  • elfinto

    It’s a bit like the Salem witch trials really.

    Witch! Witch! Witch!

    The people accused of being witches were in the uneviable position of trying to prove that they were not witches. An impossible task of course.

  • elfinto

    Martin,

    Your cover story is a bit thin but it’s obviously enough to fool some people – helpful of your bosses to threaten to prosecute you – but not enough for anyone with a healthy degree of scepticism about such matters.

    So you believe in a united Ireland and you admire the true republicans of south Aramgh, do you? Martin, you come across as a Nairac type character.

    The best part of your cover is that you were right about Scap. Of course, being part of the set up, you were in position to know. As you so rightly pointed out, to have an agent in Counter Intelligence is priceless. Scap was priceless, the most valuable agent. Outing him first was another stroke of genius. Of course he’s long outlived his usefulness and, after all, he was a nasty bit of work. He’s probably whack a few Brits in his youth too. Freddie deserved to be outed.

    The Provos leapt to his defence but they weren’t to know about the Cook Report tapes, were they? They made them look even more stupid than they did already.

    Now, you have got the credit for outing Scap you think you’re flameproof. You have a captive audience for your further revelations. There are people out there gunning for Adam’s scalp – sidelined, bullied and bitter. They want to believe you. Go on Martin, tell them, tell us, who was the FRU’s biggest asset. We’re all ears!

    No doubt there are further agents still out there but the biggest was Scap. You said it yourself. Counter Intelligence is the place to penetrate. And thanks to the carelessness of the Provos you did it. But now you are just bluffing. There is no super-agent still in the field. He’s in Italy counting his money.

  • <-=

    El Finto: I think you have past the point of protesting too much. Get some fresh air or something.

  • Seano

    Wouldn’t Martin still be considered a “legitimate target?”

  • elfinto

    Wouldn’t Martin still be considered a “legitimate target?”

    Possibly, some of the ‘true’ republicans who he admires so much and is courting so avidly, would see ‘Martin Ingram’ as a ‘legitimate target’. But for now most them are content to believe Martin’s very thin cover story.

  • martin ingram

    Elfinto.

    It seems the body of this board have made it clear that you have lost this debate, it is time for you to take that break for fresh air!

    As regards being a target. No Genuine Nationalist would view me as a threat, that said , been there got the T shirt and wear it well.

    Martin.

  • elfinto

    Martin,

    If the general state of opinion decides who is right and wrong then SF are right as they have about 25% of the vote in the north.

    When is your war going to be over Martin? You are like one of those Japanese soldiers hiding out in the jungle. Or the CIRA for that matter. Call it a day and cease the misinformation.

    A breath of fresh air. You must be joking. It is freezing outside!