Union flags in Dublin…

WITH Lansdowne Road facing redevelopment, the GAA has granted permission for rugby and football fixtures to be played at Croke Park. With Ireland and England to meet in 2007, it brings the curious proposition of an English flag being hoisted (for the first time?) in the Dublin grounds. But will there be Union flags in Dublin before that, when loyalist pressure group Love Ulster takes its campaign to O’Connell Street? And will the Irish capital prove more tolerant of the Orangemen – perhaps even finding common cause on some issues – than Irishmen north of the border? It’s an opportunity for loyalism to point out some of the glaring inconsistencies in the political process, north and south – but how well will they get their message across?

  • Brian Boru

    I hope this parade doesn’t try to provoke distubances in order to pay Southerners in a bad light.

  • Brian Boru

    Paint I mean.

  • Martin

    I don’t think that the Union Flag will be hoisted at all, will it? The St George’s Cross, the Saltire and the Red Dradon will be but I don’t see any reason for the Union Flag being raised in Dublin…do they raise it at 6 Nations Games at Landsdowne Rd? I know they do at Twickenham (along with the St George’s Cross) but that’s quite a bit different.

  • Martin

    “Red Dragon” I mean.

  • Gonzo

    I cheated just now and changed the blog entry to reflect what Martin said about it being the St George’s Cross for rugby and not the Union flag.

    My bad.

  • Cheater

    Why don’t you cheat again and remove the word “more” preceding tolerant.

  • DaithiO

    I remember recently, on BBC’s Hearts and Minds, a DUP politician claim that, as a foreign politician, she had no business politicising in the 6 counties.

    I wonder if the same man (perhaps someone can remind me who it was) will show himself as a hypocrite by waving a foreign flag in Dublins streets !

  • Gonzo

    Because some Irishmen north of the border aren’t bothered by Orange marches.

  • DaithiO

    ** She being Sinn Feins Mary Lou McDonald !!

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Could actually be a shrewd move this — if the parade and speeches go off well, it can only portray Unionism in a good light, as opposed to the SF rantings demonising everything pro-Union.
    If things go sour, there will be plenty more Dubs who want nothing to do with the ‘Black North.’

  • Gonzo

    Gerry Lvs Castro

    Do you think there will be provocation of the parade? After all, unionists are notoriously easy to goad, and if its in republicanism’s interests to have loyalists portrayed in a bad light…

  • DerryTerry

    Excellent stuff. Look forward to more All Ireland activity by Unionism in general, and Love Ulster in particular.

  • Nathan

    Seeing that the ‘Love Ulster’ Orangemen intend to come to the capital for a political postering day out, perhaps they could pay a belated visit to the Irish Government’s Department of Arts and Heritage building (a couple of yards away from Leinster Hse). There, they will find the plaque which was unveiled back in 2000 by the Dublin Lord Mayor, to commemorate the first Irish meeting of the Orange Order.

    True to fashion, the OO boycotted that event back in 2000 – leaving the organisers (mainly Irish Labour Party councillors, but not exclusively) to hang and dry. Once bitten, twice shy is the common expression. I don’t think they’ll be too many Dublin councillors willing to extend the hand of toleration to the organisers of the ‘Love Ulster’ rally, now or at any time in the near future.

  • Ringo

    Gerry –

    if the parade and speeches go off well, it can only portray Unionism in a good light,

    I don’t think that there is the remotest chance of that happening in these circumstances. That outcome was possible with the Orange participation in the Cork Paddy’s day parade, where they could be seen to be adding something to a local celebration (hence the opposition from SF etc..).

    A protest march in Dublin – where they are protesting about, well everything I assume – is not the way to endear yourselves to the locals, the vast majority who don’t give a monkeys about the north. What type of person would want to go on this march? The Common or Garden Centre Prod’s? Or knuckle-draggers and political Free P’s?

    All SF need to do is facilitate this march, then gently stir the pot and watch it degenerate from Love Ulster to Hate Dublin, and watch the votes roll in.

    And if that is your idea of a shrewd move, well, what can I say?

    Nobody can suggest with any seriousness that the former is even a secondary aim. You just have to ask yourself, is marching is something that normally protrays unionism in a good light to outsiders?

    Keith M –

    Got your jackeen flag yet ? 😉

  • Dec

    Ringo

    …protest march in Dublin…is not the way to endear yourselves to the locals, the vast majority who don’t give a monkeys about the north.

    You ran a poll, did you?

  • Keith M

    I have to say that I fully support the aims of the march. I too am opposed to giving people who committed the most heinous of crimes any kind of amnesty, without a full disclosure and repentence for their criminal activities.

    I do however wonder if Leinster House is the right place for this protest. In this country the amnesty is going through the most convaluted process. There will be no legislation, but instead the President will grant a pardon to those involved. This is a highly dubious move in constitutional law, because people who have not been convicted of a crime, cannot be pardoned. Those behind the march would be better served petitioing the President to ask her to put the amnesty to the Supreme Court, to test its constitutionality.

    Having said that, if the march goes ahead, I will of course support it and I hope that the SDLP (who also oppose the amnesty) do likewise.

  • seabhac siulach

    I wholeheartedly agree to the ‘Love Ulster’ people coming to Dublin. It will be hilarious to see them trotting down O’Connell street, etc. I’m sure they will be greeted with much ironic cheering…

    By the way, is this the first recognition by Unionism of an all-Ireland framework? Why come to Dublin unless you believe that the South has a right to ‘interfere’ in ‘Ulster’s’ affairs? It is a belated recognition of political reality and is to be welcomed. These are baby steps but all in the one direction…

  • Donnie

    Is St. Patricks Institution still open in Dublin?! It’s the perfect place for Willie Frazer…

  • Ringo

    …protest march in Dublin…is not the way to endear yourselves to the locals, the vast majority who don’t give a monkeys about the north.

    You ran a poll, did you?

    Oh I’m sorry, Dec, did I offend you by stating the bleedin’ obvious?

  • It will give the skangers a day out anyway.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘will the Irish capital prove more tolerant of the Orangemen – perhaps even finding common cause on some issues – than Irishmen north of the border?,

    Probably not give that some of those involved with the Love Ulster campaign were involved, with their handlers, in murdering dozens of people in the city.
    Republicans in the city should be organising a counter demonstration straight away.

  • Dublin Exile

    Hopefully the people of Dublin will view this march as a wonderful opportunity to show off our fair city in all its cosmopolitan glory to a group of visitors who have not been here before and have a pretty poor impression of us.

    If the Love Ulster people are given a civil reception, or at worst, complete indifference, they’ll realise that their fears of a southern state just waiting for the chance to invade and turn them all into catholic irishmen, are completely unfounded.

    The only knuckledraggers i’d be worried about are the republicans who think they’ll unite us all a lot quicker by having a counter-demonstration or some other nonsense.

    I suppose its only a matter of time before a Parnell Square – O’Connell St – Westmoreland St – College Green- Nassau St- Kildare St Residents Association is formed to object?

  • Keith M

    SS : “By the way, is this the first recognition by Unionism of an all-Ireland framework?”. I think you’d need to go back 200+ years ago for that. Unionismism has always been abouut keeping all the island as part of the United Kingdom. It was nationalism that chose to divide it, putting a desire for independence ahead of unity.

    This is an issue that has impacts both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Those being given amnesty in the Republic, committed crimes in Northern Ireland. The blood on their hands is that of Northern Irish people. If the people involved in the Monaghan and Dublin bombings were also known and included in the amnesty it might bring home the injustice of it to people in this country.

  • Keith M

    “Republicans in the city should be organising a counter demonstration straight away.”

    I know the Provos stance of the amnesty has changed (they were against it as it includeed policemen and soldiers), but has it changed back again? The 99.9% who don’t read The Daily Provo need to know!

  • Mick O’Tick

    The best thing Dubliners could do for this parade, is to not show up at all. Let the bigots be met with empty streets and tumbleweeds!

  • Dec

    Ringo

    No, you didn’t offend me, though your policy of projecting your own views on large swathes of the population are generally tiresome. Last I heard Dublin had 1 SF MEP, 2 Sinn Fein TDs and 10 SF councillors on DCC, which would suggest a small degree of interest in the North. I could list the FF (‘The Republican party’ elected representatives but its late. That being said, who cares what the electorate thinks when you’re on your soapbox.

  • Ziznivy

    This all sounds rather reminiscent of another day in 1999 when Dublin was swamped with Ulster flags!

    I fail to see how waving flags can alter anyone’s perceptions of OTRs and victims’ rights.

  • Nathan

    The only ‘republicans’ likely to form any sort of ‘counter demonstration’ are the Irish National Congress, as they did in 2000 outside the Department of Arts and Heritage on Dawson St. And you can bet your bottom euro that they’ll be on their best behaviour for their governor, Tom Cooper – the squeaky clean, ninnyhead wannabes that they’ll inadvertedly promote themselves to be.

    It would really make my day if the INC wormed their way out of the scrapyard for the occasion(based on the assumption it is going ahead, something I doubt very much doubt). I know good entertainment when I see it.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘The 99.9% who don’t read The Daily Provo need to know!’

    Couldn’t agree more, everyone needs to know the people who associate with Love Ulster are unionist paramilitaries. The very groups that bombed Dublin. The very paramilitaries who have not given up their violence and still retain their guns.
    This parade should not be allowed to be portrayed as some benign victims group, it is not

  • Keith M

    Agreed Pat, God forbid we should have anyone associated with paramilitaries marching through Dublin. Of course you’ll have no problem in joining me in condeming the Provos grotesque display from earlier this year. I mean you wouldn’t want to be seen having double standards.

  • Stephen Copeland

    … Last I heard Dublin had 1 SF MEP, 2 Sinn Fein TDs and 10 SF councillors on DCC, which would suggest a small degree of interest in the North

    Dec, despite unionist beliefs to the contrary, people in the south do actually vote SF for their social and/or anti-establishment policies, without much regard to the north. SF is not just about the (northern) constitutional question, and has always had a degree of support amongst the working class and small farmer class all over the country.

    I suspect that around 50% of the spectators of the possible ‘Love Ulster’ (sic) march won’t even know what the feck they’re on about. Much of city centre Dublin is not native born, and is concerned only with grabbing a slice of the money and getting back to Poland, Latvia or wherever, without a backward glance.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    KeithM

    I prefer to keep the discussion on track and leave whataboutery to others.

    I note that you do not challenge the paramilitary links to Love Ulster.

  • There was some mention of this issue on Dublin radio stations today and , amongst the issues raised was the ‘rumour’ (?) that the ‘Combat 18’ group had been asked to act as ‘stewards’ for the parade .
    If the Organisers are trying to provoke trouble , they are certainly going the right way about it by inviting that group to march with them .

    Sharon.

  • Keith M

    Pat, at least you’re honest in having double standards.

    I have absolutly no idea of what if any paramilitary paramilitaries are involved in “love Ulster”. According to their website. “LoveUlster is a peaceful and democratic initiative by a range of organisations across the Province, including the Shankill Mirror, victims support groups and the Orange Institution.” Perhaps you know otherwise? Perhaps you should put your evidence in the public domain?

    It’s good to see that they use the most famous phrase of Dubliner Edmund Burke as their slogan; “the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”.

  • This is gonna be pretty funny. A bit like confronting your bully from primary school with “you ruined my life” and the git doesn’t even recognise you.

    But seriuosly, this is a democratic country and they can march here if they want.

    I’ll be shocked if they’re not allowed to express themselves freely. Willie seems to have some doubt about this.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Keith M

    IIRC, at the Larne launch, the newspaper was offloaded by a prominent paramilitary from the UDA, although I don’t think that’s who Pat is referring to.

    Love Ulster hasn’t exactly knocked loyalist paramilitary supporters back from supporting the campaign, if I remember an interview with Frazer correctly.

    Still, if it channels loyalist muscle into something other than paramilitarism and crime, it’s maybe not a complete waste…

  • tra g

    “I have absolutly no idea of what if any paramilitary paramilitaries are involved in “love Ulster”. According to their website. “LoveUlster is a peaceful and democratic initiative by a range of organisations across the Province, including the Shankill Mirror”

    Was loyalist paramilitary leader, Jackie McDonald not pictured with the leaders of the love ulster campaign at the launch ?

  • As far as I am concerned the Love Ulster crowd are not welcome in my capital, i’d much prefer they keep their hatred at home instead of spreading it south.

  • Keith M

    Maca, I’ much prefer that all Northern Irish politics staying in that country and didn’t spead south. The problem is that the President of this country is about to pardon people who committed serious crimes in Northern Ireland, without any further recourse to justice in either country. That’s again natural justice, probably against international law and most likely unconstitutional. If the amnesty was only for crimes committed in this country you might have a point.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Probably not give that some of those involved with the Love Ulster campaign were involved, with their handlers, in murdering dozens of people in the city.
    Republicans in the city should be organising a counter demonstration straight away”

    Something along the lines of; ”we murdered more Irishmen than you prods ever did……”

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”All SF need to do is facilitate this march, then gently stir the pot and watch it degenerate from Love Ulster to Hate Dublin, and watch the votes roll in.”

    Would this be the same SF who only a few months ago marched down O’Connell St in provo uniforms waving replica firearms much to the disgust of the locals? Portraying yourselves as a bunch of gun-toting thugs before disrupting a potentially peaceful march by the ‘other side’ is hardly designed to ‘get the votes rolling in’.

  • Brian Boru

    “This is an issue that has impacts both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Those being given amnesty in the Republic, committed crimes in Northern Ireland. The blood on their hands is that of Northern Irish people. If the people involved in the Monaghan and Dublin bombings were also known and included in the amnesty it might bring home the injustice of it to people in this country.”

    Allegedly committed such crimes. Innocent until proven guilty. I would also point out that it is a bit hypocritical to make this criticism considering that thousands of Loyalist and Republican prisoners have already been released, and that at least half of Northern Protestants accepted this as a price worth paying at the time. In respect to Dublin-Monaghan, I think that what is really needed in the context of the peace process is for truth to emerge, and I don’t think this process precludes that.

    I hope SF behaves responsibly and doesn’t allow itself to be provoked by this march, and likewise does not try to provoke the marchers. A parade passing off peacefully might begin to break down walls of suspicion between Northern Protestants and Southerners.

  • Well

    What people should do is join in the parade waving the nine county Ulster flag. It is after all a Love Ulster parade. If I am about I will tag on to the end of it with me Flag, sure it is going to be great Craic.
    Willie must not realize the potential for so much to go wrong. Bring it on I say

  • Henry94

    I was listening to one of the organisers on the radio yesterday and there is a bit of a strategy at work.

    They are putting the victims to the fore and nobody can object to victims. But the Orangemen are tagging along to “express their culture”.

    Then this is going to be used in the Parades disputes as in “we were allowed march in Dublin so what’s your problem?”

    It probably sounds like a cunning plan in certain circles.

  • JD

    “Would this be the same SF who only a few months ago marched down O’Connell St in provo uniforms waving replica firearms much to the disgust of the locals?”

    As someone who attended the Make Partition History rally in Dublin earlier this year can I correct this myth about provo uniforms etc. The rally was a styled as a paegant there were different themes and floats through-out the length of the rally, the themes included the struggle for civil rights, the prison struggles, demilitarisation and the Easter Rising. We had children banging bin lids – a traditional symbol of resistance in many urban nationalist areas and a small number of people dressed in period costumes from the 1916-1920 era and marched alongside banners commerating the rising. The day was extremely peaceful and entertaining and all of the Dubliners that I spoke thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle of it and the enginuity of some of the floats.

  • Keith
    “If the amnesty was only for crimes committed in this country you might have a point.”

    I don’t think the parade has much to do with these isues at all. I’m more inclined to believe the parade is little more than spreading the “love ulster” hatred.
    If it was a parade by decent people from all backgrounds against the OTR proposals then i’d welcome them.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”The day was extremely peaceful and entertaining and all of the Dubliners that I spoke thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle of it and the enginuity of some of the floats.”

    Interesting this as the RTE phone-in at the time was innundated with complaints and Dub friends of mine who were shopping on the day described the parade as ‘sinister and unwelcome.’
    I’m no fan of OO marches but the overwhelming majority could justifiably be described as ‘peaceful and entertaining.’ Let’s hope this one is allowed to be also.

  • J McConnell

    > As someone who attended the Make Partition History
    > rally in Dublin earlier this year can I correct
    > this myth about provo uniforms etc.

    And as someone who saw the rabble march down Dawson St, Nassau St and Molesworth St I can confirm the myth. I saw the people in para-military uniforms. I missed the kids with the replica guns though.

    I did notice that a lot of the marchers seemed to be from the North, and that a lot looked like the usual collection of psychos, gurriers, and layabouts that one usually sees at republican gatherings in the South.

    > the Dubliners that I spoke thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle

    From were I was standing the reaction looked more like puzzled indifference verging on mild distaste. I saw absolutely no sign of any positive reaction among the gawkers at the performance.

    There again shinners and their fellow travelers tend to congregate north of the river. You are more likely to find them scurrying around the Henry St area than the Dawson St area..

  • George

    The Gardai have no problem and it’s the fundamental right of every Irish person, unionist or otherwise, to assemble at the GPO to demonstrate peacefully.

    Hopefully, there won’t be too much disruption to business and commuters on the stroll to Kildare Street.

    Who knows maybe we will get an invite to have a love Ireland parade in the Shankill next year in a display of mutual tolerance.

  • Realist

    “The rally was a styled as a paegant”

    lol

    “Style” it whatever way you want…it was a Provofest.

  • Ukko

    Keith M

    And what is so wrong with a desire for independence?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I think it’s a great move by the Love Ulster organisers. The campaign might open the eyes of some Southerners to the hypocrisy of their government-on one hand Ahern is pressing for the DUP to sit in government with the IRA’s political wing, but on the other hand admits that SF/IRA are not a suitable party to form a coalition government with, in the Republic…Ulster’s citizens deserve parity of esteem!

  • barnshee

    “I think it’s a great move by the Love Ulster organisers. ”
    No its not its just plain stupid– or are the organisers counting on the parade and its supporters being attacked somewhere along the line?

    Trying for a win win situation- get the parade banned or attacked to score stupid points?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Does anyone else suspect that this parade will never actually happen? I could well be wrong but I recall the proposed OO march in Dawson Street in 2000 which was called off due to “intimidation” and “lack of political support”. The “intimidation” wasn’t specified and the “lack of political support” referred to Dublin Corporation having the temerity to suggest the Order should have to pay for hiring out the Mansion House.

    The whole thing was rubbish of course, always was. The exercise was for the benefit of the wee News Letter-reading flat-earthers back in Ahoghill and Ahorey who could be relied on not to look at the details too closely. It was to assure those guys, who are the beating, ignorant, fearful heart of the OO, that Dublin was still enemy territory where they lynch Protestants in the streets for being Protestants. Of course the Orange Order is happier perpetuating the myth that Dublin is somehow a dangerous place for Protestants. Of course it was anxious not to show those good, tight wee bigots in Ahoghill and Ahorey that their OO, their great shining bastion of defence against the Romanish hordes, is viewed in Dublin as a tolerable irritation and most of all, a frightful bore.

    So I remain suspicious that this latest event might also be cancelled, most reluctantly of course. Why? Doubtless the organisers will tell us they’ve been threatened by republicans. They’ll probably say Gardai were hostile and unhelpful. They’ll doubtless say the Irish government tried to stop it somehow. None of which need necessarily be true. Our men in Ahoghill and Ahorey will be sitting over their cornflakes and reading Willie Frazer’s statement reported as fact in the News Letter and will mutter that the Republic still hates Protestants.

    So I disagree with Pat McLarnon when he calls for a counter-demonstration. I think that would be disastrous. What on earth would a counter-demonstration possibly achieve? Regardless of what you think of the Love Ulster rally, a counter demo would be a huge tactical error which could only alienate Dubliners from northerners of all sides. Is that what republicans want?

    “As far as I am concerned the Love Ulster crowd are not welcome in my capital, I’d much prefer they keep their hatred at home instead of spreading it south.”

    I wouldn’t worry about Love Ulster “spreading south”. Do you honestly think they’re going to pick up any converts during their journey? Their message won’t spread – but with any luck, exposure to a larger pond might see their hate begin to dissipate.

    By the way: you weren’t always so partitionist. These days you seem to be virtually indistinguishable on the issue from a Ringo or even a Keith M. Why have your views hardened so alarmingly?

    (And if you have come to dislike northerners to the extent that you deny our essential compatriotism, how can it be that you still love Slugger so much?)

  • Brian Boru

    “I think it’s a great move by the Love Ulster organisers. The campaign might open the eyes of some Southerners to the hypocrisy of their government-on one hand Ahern is pressing for the DUP to sit in government with the IRA’s political wing, but on the other hand admits that SF/IRA are not a suitable party to form a coalition government with, in the Republic…Ulster’s citizens deserve parity of esteem!”

    Concerned Loyalist, you are not comparing like with like. We havent gone through a bloody 30 year conflict remember. I agree our leaders shouldnt completely rule SF out, but the context is different and you should realise that.

    The particular hypocrisy in the case of the DUP is that they are quite happy (away from the cameras) to work with SF in local-government in the North, but not at Stormont.

  • Concerned Republican

    I think it’s a great move by the Love Ulster organisers. The campaign might open the eyes of some Southerners to the hypocrisy of the Love Ulster organisers who to complain about everyone else and SF/IRA while at the same time including members of loyalist paramilitary terror groups, complaining about blah blah blah..

    No doubt they’ll confirm to the average Dub, or any Dub that might give a f**k, that their ideology belongs back on the sectarian rubbish tip that it emanates from.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Juat wondering, Gonzo, why you censored a word from my post above? I referred to my stereotypical Orangeman in Ahoghill or Ahorey as a “good tight wee bigot” but you censored the word “bigot”. It now looks like I might have been saying anything. “Good tight wee bastard”. “Good tight wee fucker”.

    I stand over the word bigot and would respectfully suggest that censoring words can distort the gist of a post – something I’m sure no-one wants to see on Slugger.

    I accept that to suggest the average Orangeman is a bigot is something that some people might find offensive. However I would insist that it is nevertheless an eminently reasonable charge to make, and one I have argued many times, at great length and always, I believe, with good faith.

    Have we now got to the stage where eminently arguable obervations are to be censored?

    Or does it, as your form as a moderator would suggest Gonzo, depend on your personal sympathies?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Jesus, it’s automatically censoring the word. I must apologise Gonzo, it’s not your fault at all.

    For the record, the word I was trying to use was this. Big. Ot.

    Funny, it’ll allow fucker all right. This is a very depressing development for Slugger. Jesus, you turn your back for a few weeks…

  • crat

    Are these Loyalists, Orangemen and pressure groups of LoveUlster just going to Dublin to whinge about how god damn awful their country is or do they want some sort of result?
    If they have requests or ideas have they approached political and civic leadership in Ireland for support? Do they intend to? Or is it all just a really silly gimmick?
    LoveUlster should ask if they want something.
    If they ask politely they might get.
    If they demand and parade and don’t engage they’ll get nothing other than a day out in Dublin. (if it ever happens, which I doubt)

  • Belfast Gonzo

    BillyPilgrim

    Apology accepted, as is the “form” for this moderator.

    I hope you have had a chance to read this:

    http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/censorship_comes_to_slugger/

  • Billy
    “you weren’t always so partitionist.”

    No, I guess not. Attitudes change though. I think with the head more than the heart these days 🙂

    “These days you seem to be virtually indistinguishable on the issue from a Ringo or even a Keith M.”

    On THIS issue perhaps but not on other issues. My politics are still very different from Keith’s.

    “And if you have come to dislike northerners to the extent that you deny our essential compatriotism …”

    I don’t dislike Northerners Billy. I dislike b1gots. And my “compatriots” are my fellow citizens, North or South or wherever they may be.

  • George

    Billy,
    The Orange Order didn’t march in Dublin that time as Canon Adrian Empey of St. Annes Church refused to facilitate the Orangemen with the use of his church because of the “disgraceful behaviour of the Orangemen at Drumcree”.

    When Canon Empey informed the select vestry of his decision it was endorsed unanimously.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “No doubt they’ll confirm to the average Dub…that their ideology belongs back on the sectarian rubbish tip it emanates from”.

    So basically Con. Rep., you view as sectarian bigots anyone and everyone involved with the Love Ulster campaign, and anyone in general who sympathises with Unionist and Loyalist ideology?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Why is the word big*ot censored in the context of my post? I am not using it as a weapon of abuse…

  • Dublin Exile

    Republicans have a very clear choice on this issue.

    1. Confirm to the Love Ulster people that you are an intolerant bunch of protestant hating fascists by holding ‘counter-demonstrations’ and making them unwelcome in our capital city.

    or
    2. Behave as democrats and allow others the freedom to express their views on the streets of our Republics captial without any fear of intimidation or attack.

    Time to ask yourselves are you real republicans or just nationalists with guns?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Dublin Exile,
    A very mature and tolerant post. I came to the conclusion a number of years ago that our community have nothing to fear from people like yourself. Protestants have only one thing to fear in the Irish Republic, and that is the same thing their Ulster co-religionists have to put up with- the Sinn Fein/IRA RAfia and their b1goted “supporters”…

  • J McConnell

    > Why is the word big*ot censored in the context of my post?

    More to the point why is the same page with big*ot hashed out have a blogadd from blue chicken with the word f*ck in a 72 point plus typeface?

  • Brian Boru

    I have an idea.

    How about a “Love the Republic” parade through the Shankill Road by Southern politicians and Northern Nationalists, complete with Tricolors and bands playing “A Nation Once Again”. I’m sure the Unionists would love that, being so concerned with people’s right to march and express their culture!

    🙂

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Brian Boru,
    The people of the Shankill Road are not paradoxically stating that the IRA’s mouthpieces are fit for government in Northern Ireland, but don’t have a hope of forming a coalition with Fianna Fail in the Republic…

  • Billy Pilgrim

    George

    Thanks for the extra information. Were you also aware of the issue of the price of sandwiches in the Mansion House? As I recall, that was another of the deal-breakers at the time.

    Maca

    “No, I guess not. Attitudes change though. I think with the head more than the heart these days :)”

    Fair enough Maca, fair enough. The old “realism” gambit. Classically the refuge of those who suddenly fear their previously-expressed ideals might actually be realised.

    You won’t thank me for saying that but I hope you’ll believe me when I say I once felt much like you do – indeed I’d suggest my weariness with the whole question was greater even than yours. Like you, my weariness was with the b1gotry and nastiness and smallness that characterised life where I was growing up. I just wanted to distance myself from all that ugliness. I wanted to make a personal escape from it.

    It was a fruitless effort though. That’s how I know right-wingers are wrong when they preach the cult of pure individualism. By distancing myself from the real and pressing problems facing those around me (depressing and apparently hopeless as they were) all I was doing was serving my own vanity. I flattered myself that I was rising above the problem when in fact I was just admiring myself while doing nothing of any value to anyone. I realised I could no more pretend the problems of Ireland didn’t concern me than I could pretend the problems in my family didn’t concern me.

    Or I suppose in short, I realised I was wrong to think it inherently gauche or narrow-minded or unsophisticated to have genuine convictions and to be prepared to stand by them, even under intense pressure and even through moments of doubt. On the contrary, I realised that’s what it means to have character.

    I’m not saying I have it – just that it’s what I strive for.

    Now I don’t mean I just regressed to being the aggressive, Provo-equivocating tight wee fenian I was back my childhood. As you rightly say, opinions are in a constant state of flux and mine had evolved. However I think a person’s most fundamental ideals, one’s core beliefs, are more lasting than the fleeting opinions they inform. They are scored deep in our DNA.

    So when you talk, however winkingly, about thinking “more with the head more than the heart these days,” I wonder what you mean by that? That you have converted to partitionism because you think it’s smarter than being pro-unity? That being pro-unity is unshrewd or immature or idiotic or even morally suspect?

    I’m left wondering: how can a patriotic person look at their country, see it divided, yet wish to see that division be perpetuated? I have to admit, I can’t seem to square that particular circle.

    If a person’s patriotism is fleeting opinion rather than a core conviction, is that person really a patriot at all?

    I’m still thinking about character.

    “On THIS issue perhaps but not on other issues. My politics are still very different from Keith’s.”

    Och I know that – that’s why I specified that we were talking about this issue. I’m not going to start suggesting you’re a mouth-foaming flogger just because you think a border down the middle of Belleek is essential to save the civilised folk on the left side of the street from the murderous lunatics on the right. I would just suggest that you treat reports of northern dysfunction with a little more scepticism.

    (I’m guessing you’ve never spent much time in the north? Something I’ve always found interesting is this: in my experience some of the most hardline people in the nationalist community, and certainly the ones who have the most old-fashioned views and most passe arguments tend to be people from south of the border who have moved up. If you think about it, this might mean that there isn’t anything inherently different or disagreeable in the northern DNA.)

    “I don’t dislike Northerners Billy. I dislike b1gots.”

    Interesting conflation of the two there Maca. Could it be seen though as rather an intolerant line of argument? Especially when you’re making the point that you dislike b1gots? (A point with which I have no disagreement – I think we know each other well enough by now.)

    “And my “compatriots” are my fellow citizens, North or South or wherever they may be.”

    Now that’s a sentiment I’ll applaud. But why the quotation marks around “compatriots”?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Gonzo

    Cheers for that, by the way.

  • George

    Billy,
    I did hear something about the fees for hiring the Mansion House Round Room and equipment and road closure costs coming to about 7k which the Department of Foreign Affairs’ Reconciliation Fund refused to pay.

    The only people the Orange Order didn’t feel let down by at the end of it all were the Gardai who were described as “fantastic” by organiser Ian Cox.

    The reasons he gave for calling it off were abusive phone calls, threatening letters etc. and being abandoned by those who initially supported the idea.

    Personally, I think it died a death when they were refused the use of St. Annes church because of the Orange Order’s actions at Drumcree.

    It’s a bit like the planned OO march in Cork on St. Patrick’s Day which died a death when a Presbyterian Minister in Cork came out strongly against it.

    Although I do believe the Gardai also weren’t very enamoured with the idea of an Orange Order march on St. Patrick’s day in Cork from a public order point of view. Drink and politics and all that.

    But as I said before many months ago, I live in perpetual hope that the Orange Order becomes a force for good on this island and that it decides to represent the Protestant tradition in Ireland rather than the British one.
    Or am I just mad?

  • Nathan

    “The Orange Order didn’t march in Dublin that time as Canon Adrian Empey of St. Annes Church refused to facilitate the Orangemen with the use of his church because of the “disgraceful behaviour of the Orangemen at Drumcree”.”

    Can you provide the source for that statement please? I ask because he only made one public comment to the press and it wasn’t put quite like that. As far as he was concerned, he didn’t want to fuel the perception that the OO and the CofI were opposite sides of the same coin, when “emphatically it is not”. My source -Kitty Holland, The Irish Times 2/5/2000

  • Concerned Republican

    Con. Loy.

    “So basically Con. Rep., you view as sectarian #### anyone and everyone involved with the Love Ulster campaign, and anyone in general who sympathises with Unionist and Loyalist ideology?”

    No, If I thought that I would have said that.

    I am pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and breath-taking double standards of the organisers.

    Brian Boru

    “How about a “Love the Republic” parade through the Shankill Road by Southern politicians and Northern Nationalists, complete with Tricolors and bands playing “A Nation Once Again”…”

    You forgot to add “complete with 200 victims violence”

    Con.Loy.

    “The people of the Shankill Road are not paradoxically stating that the IRA’s mouthpieces are fit for government in Northern Ireland, but don’t have a hope of forming a coalition with Fianna Fail in the Republic…”

    No, they are paradoxically stating that the UDA’s and the UVF’s mouthpieces are fit for
    local government in Northern Ireland, that’s why they regularly elect them.

  • I’ll give 100/1 that this parade goes ahead. The Gardai know it already, but it would be politically insensitive to refuse outright a request of this nature. The main opposition is not likely to come from Republicans, rather from many many young Dubs who are’nt politically motivated but who dont wnat rabble like Willie Fraser rubbing their noses in it. Why should they? Anyone who has ever been on Hill 16 might be reluctant to provoke the locals too much…

  • George

    Nathan
    Sunday Business Post Letter page, September 19, 2004

    I outlined (SBP, letters, 29/08/04) some of the aims and objectives of the Reform Movement, which is headed by Robin Bury and Derek Simpson.
    In their response (SBP, letters 12/09/04) Messrs Bury and Simpson don’t disagree in any substantive way on the issue of the Irish state participating at official level in Remembrance Day ceremonies.

    However, on the matter of the Orange Order parade in Dawson Street, Dublin in 2001, and the refusal of the then rector, Canon Adrian Empey, to facilitate the Orangemen with the use of his church, Bury states, and I quote, “Canon Empey’s refusal of facilities must be set against a background of reports of Roman Catholic traders in Dawson Street being unhappy.

    Possibly his decision was a matter of pastoral prudence, as the upkeep of St Anne’s Church is helped by such traders”.

    On Monday September 13 I spoke at length to Canon Empey and he confirmed tome that the sole reason for his refusal to allow the Orange Order the use of his church was because of the “disgraceful behaviour of the Orangemen at Drumcree”.

    When Canon Empey informed the select vestry of his decision it was endorsed unanimously.”

    Tom Cooper, Knocklyon, Dublin 16.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Con. Rep.
    “No, they are paradoxically stating that the UDA’s and the UVF’s mouthpieces are fit for government in Northern Ireland, and that’s why they regularly elect them”.

    I don’t know where you get your statistics fromHow many PUP (UVF’s political analysts) representatives are Members of Parliament or Members of the Legislative Assembly?

    The answer is one MLA in East Belfast, Davy Ervine.

    How many UPRG (UDA’s political analysts) representatives stood as Independents and gained a seat in Westminster or Stormont?

    The answer is none. UPRG members only gained seats in local council elections, which they stood for as Independents. They didn’t even stand in Westminster elections, so as not to split the Unionist/Loyalist vote in marginal areas such as South Belfast and in areas like the Shankill in West Belfast, where locals voted for Diane Dodds of the DUP to strengthen the Unionist minority vote.

    So your point was what exactly Mr. Republican???

  • Concerned Loyalist

    MacSwiney,
    Give me your details and I’ll put on £100 if you’re going to give me 100/1 odds-I’ll have a good January sales with my winnings…or maybe you’re just full of hot air?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Correction: There should be a question mark after “from” on the third line

  • Nathan

    George,

    The content of a retrospective chit-chat with the lovely Mr Cooper is not the same as going on public record at the time, is it George?

    Nonetheless, I believe that the above would indeed be Empey’s private opinion. Shame he didn’t have the backbone to register those sentiments with the people of Dublin, back in 2000.

    Personally, I think it died a death when they were refused the use of St. Annes church because of the Orange Order’s actions at Drumcree.

    I’m not convinced. I think “it died a death” the moment the OO exploited the hand of tolerance, for the furtherance of their own twisted political point scoring agenda.

    Quite simply, public representatives on Dublin Corporation invited the OO to Dawson St to unveil a bronze plaque in memory of the birthplace of the OO, ironically where the Department of Arts & Heritage stands now. Next thing they knew, the OO were going on public record to say that civic endorsement had been given by Dublin Corporation, to march. This was a complete misrepresentation by the OO. It was made quite clear by the Lord Mayor that if they wanted added-on extras, they would have to do it on their own footing. In other words, civic endorsement was only ever granted for the unveiling of the plaque, it did not extend to the march. The moment they realised their march wasn’t going to be artifically propped up with taxpayers money was the moment they knew their PR stunt had been made redundant.

    On a positive note, Dublin Corporation kept to their side of the bargain and went ahead with the unveiling of the plaque, even though the OO snubbed the occasion. Shock horror, Sinn Fein councillors didn’t orchestrate a protest against their esteemed colleagues in the Irish Labour Party. Instead, the jamboree protest was left to Tom Cooper and his motley collection of protestors.

  • George

    You may have a point Nathan with your take on it and I accept finding out later by third party isn’t the same as going on record.

    But I would say even the Dublin dogs in the street, to use a northern phrase, knew why the Orange Order were refused the use of St. Annes.

    I do think that without a church any authority was drained away. Otherwise there might have been some token-style demonstration before adjourning for some prayer.

  • Realist

    “who dont wnat rabble like Willie Fraser rubbing their noses in it.”

    macswinney,

    I’m quite sure whoever wishes to protest against the proposed march will do so peacefully.

    You should respectfully bear in mind that Willie Frazer has suffered more than most in terms of our “troubles”. Perhaps that is why he comes across as bitter.

  • Billy
    “The old “realism” gambit. Classically the refuge of those who suddenly fear their previously-expressed ideals might actually be realised.”

    Not even close Billy. I don’t think those ideals will actually be realised anytime soon and I don’t “fear” a UI anyway.

    “indeed I’d suggest my weariness with the whole question was greater even than yours. Like you, my weariness was with the b1gotry and nastiness…”

    I won’t deny I do grow weary of hearing the same bullshit all the time from certain quarters, but weariness plays a very small part in this. Attitudes simply change as do priorities.

    “However I think a person’s most fundamental ideals, one’s core beliefs, are more lasting than the fleeting opinions they inform. They are scored deep in our DNA.”

    Excuse me if I am wrong but are you saying my “previously-expressed ideal” was a “core belief” and that if my position on that changes it’s nothing more than a “fleeting opinion”?

    “So when you talk, however winkingly, about thinking “more with the head more than the heart these days,” I wonder what you mean by that?”

    I thought it was straight forward enough. The support for a UI for many people (here) is “emotional” but priorities change, economics and other issues must also be considered. None of these were a priority for me before. I’m sure you’ll understand that my priorities more than likely differ in many ways from your own. The resulting “change” in attitude is not sudden as you seem to think, it’s an ongoing process.

    “That you have converted to partitionism because you think it’s smarter than being pro-unity?”

    Ah now Billy. “Converted to partitionism”?
    You think i’d make such a fundamental change in attitude simply because I think one view may be smarter? Is that all you think of me? 🙂

    I don’t support partition, but I recognise that we ARE partitioned and it will only change with the consent of the majourity North & South.

    “That being pro-unity is unshrewd or immature or idiotic or even morally suspect?”

    Ah now, again! Where have I ever said there’s anything wrong with being pro-unity?

    “just because you think a border down the middle of Belleek is essential to save the civilised folk on the left side of the street from the murderous lunatics on the right”

    ???????? <- lots of question marks "Could it be seen though as rather an intolerant line of argument?" Intolerant, maybe, I don't care (more intolerance). Does that make me a b1got because I dislike b1gots? Should I LIKE b1gots? "But why the quotation marks around “compatriots”? " Yeah, I just tend to use quotes a lot.

  • Concerned Republican

    Con.Loy

    “The answer is one…The answer is none…UPRG members only gained seats in local council elections…”

    Well done! It took you a while, but you got there in the end.

    BTW, re-read the point you were responding to then re-read the way you quoted it. If you ever master the skill of reading and writing accurately it could be a big help to you.

    “So your point was what exactly Mr. Republican???”

    Ok, I’ll help you out. The momumental mental effort you had to make to work out if loyalist paramilitary spokesmen have ever been elected in NI seems to have made you forget what it was we were talking about in the first place.

    My point was, and I’ll re-quote myself here:

    “No, they are paradoxically stating that the UDA’s and the UVF’s mouthpieces are fit for
    local government in Northern Ireland..”

    (this was me pointing to the hypocracy at the core of your comments and at the core of LoveUlster)

    Any other questions Mr Loyalist?

    Btw, are you for real, or are you just trying to give loyalists a bad name? (not that they ever had a good one)

  • Alan2

    “Probably not give that some of those involved with the Love Ulster campaign were involved, with their handlers, in murdering dozens of people in the city.”

    Funny you should mention that as no doubt the fact that the Dublin and Monaghan bombers will also be entitled to this amnesty will be raised with politicians in the Dail yet the murderers of Garda McCabe will not be included…crock of £$%&…do the crime do the time……