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Derry with a capital D?

on 23 September 2005 , 12:00 am | 8 views

The DUP is up in arms about a Monaghan judge who refused to recognise the name “Londonderry” given by the defendant as being his address. The Judge said he “didn’t want to see this rubbish coming before him again” as far as he was concerned it was “just Derry with a capital D.”

“For a member of the Southern Judiciary to make such an ill-informed and completely inaccurate statement is astounding,” said Foster.

“This is indicative of the way in which authorities within the Republic of Ireland have contempt for anything British. I will be writing to the Irish Minister for Justice in relation to this matter. Is it any wonder that the minority protestant communities in the Southern border areas feel entirely isolated when this is the type of statement coming from the Irish Judiciary.”

Do the “minority Protestant communities” in the Irish Republic not also call it Derry?

  • Overhere

    Looks like they are up in arms about anything apart from the real issues, Loyalist/Unionisy arms and the firing off !!

  • overhere

    sorry about the typo should have read Unionist not Unionisy. I suppose Unionisy would be more Alliance territory

  • martin

    Most of the Protestants that I know in Tyrone–about 20–use the term Derry as well–so whats the fuss.

  • Dan

    While the comments made by Judge Sean McBride were petty and may have been rather embarrassing for other members of the southern judiciary, this is hardly a matter for the Minister for Justice, is it? Perhaps the DUP should put their own house in order before embarking such grand crusades.

  • Denny Boy

    What a bunch of saddoes! Who votes for such people?

  • John East Belfast

    I cannot understand why all the posters to date think that a judge can give such a biased opinion in a court room and that this is not an issue to be embarrased about.

    Yesterday I had nationalist posters tell me that they didn’t care or thought it was ok for criminals to hold public office.

    Now its fine for biggoted and insensitive buffons to be judges.

    What kind of New Ireland do you guys want ?

  • G-man

    Can I suggest that this Derry/Londonderry nonsense is settled once and for all by two referendums:

    1. The citizens of the City of Derry/Londonderry should have a vote on the name of the city.

    2. The citizens of the County of Derry/Londonderry should have a vote on the name of the county.

    Thereafter the winning name (or names) will be accepted by everyone regardless of their political & religious convictions.

    Dead simple !

    p.s. both the judge and the DUP are being very petty and why do the DUP have to bring religion into it everytime ?

  • pakman

    A politicised judicial appointments process gives you politicised judges. As for the nationalist ranters above what would your reaction be if a NI judge came out with a statement from the bench only recognising Londonderry as a place with a capital “L”? Think about that.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    JEB: Yesterday I had nationalist posters tell me that they didn’t care or thought it was ok for criminals to hold public office.

    Now its fine for biggoted and insensitive buffons to be judges.

    Not to sound overly cynical, JEB, but I thought being a criminal *WAS* a pre-requisite for public office and being a buffon a pre-req for being a judge, seeing as they, whomever “they” are, posit that “the law is an ass?”

    In the specific case of NI, politics the retirement plan / refuge of the successful rabble-rousers and “hard men” of both sides. Paisley and Ervine are little different from Mcguiness and Adams in most pertinent ways. Perhaps the greatest is, despite being the mouth-pieces for the terror groups, Paisley and Ervine lack the courage of their convictions to get their own hands dirty.

  • spirit-level

    JEB
    An Ireland of equals.
    The judge has made an embarrasing comment.
    Its not ok for criminals to hold public office.
    Anything else I can help you with?

  • spirit-level

    Not quite Dread
    “Paisley and Ervine lack the courage of their convictions to get their own hands dirty.”
    Its doesn’t suit their game plan, they have to be seen as clean and bright. Which of course is rubbish, but their choice of card.

  • Keith M

    While I tend to use the “Clinton solution” when speaking (“Derry” for the city, “Londonderry” for the county) most people in this county tend to use Derry for both. However as the official name remains Londonderry the judge was completly wrong on this occasion.

    I can completly understand the DUP taking advantage of this faux pas to go on about “Protestant culture” being disregarded in the Republic, wshich party wouldn’t make capital out of an opportunity like this.

    I agree with G-Man. Let’s have two votes one for the city and one for the county, in the spirit of “one man one vote”.

  • maca

    A stupid comment by the judge, but what’s even more stupid is getting worked up over it.
    And you’d think the DUP have more important issues to worry about than whinging about something so stupid.

  • Robert Keogh

    I laughed when I first read the story – what a tool for a judge. Having been a reader of the Phoenix for many years and reading the shite district and county judges get up, this is neither surprising and unfortunately is comparatively inoffensive.

    If this is the extreme of southern fascist repression then I don’t think unionists have that much to worry about.

  • finn69

    http://www.gov.ie, a quick wordsearch on the statue book using derry and londonderry return counts of 33 and 84 respectively, futhermore the majority of references to londonderry are early to mid 20th century railway acts. searching the complete site returns 281 against 2220. when you search using londonderry “…do you mean Londoner” crops up.
    ergo the judge was perfectly correct in his action as the irish state now generally refers to that place as derry

  • Brian Boru

    LOL Is this what the DUP calls “anti-British”. LOL Many British people – including Northern Protestants – also call it Derry.

  • Brian Boru

    And we are not “anti-British”.

  • Keith M

    “the judge was perfectly correct in his action as the irish state now generally refers to that place as derry”. The last time I looked the city and county in question were not in the state, so the oficial name used locally takes precidence. That name (for both city and country” is Londonderry.

    A little story for the 2004 Eurovision from Istanbul. I watched the rehersal of the voting on Friday night (yes I am that sad!) and when the Greek jury spokeman came to vote he said “Good evening Constantopolous”. The Turkish ghost quickly became very irritated and said “You mean Istanbul. We’ve had that name for hundreds of years”, but the Greek spokesman would not acknowlege his mistake. Apparently the Greeks never use the word “Istanbul” for the city and continue to use the old Greek name.

    Apparently all day on the Saturday there were major diplomatic manoeuvres involving the Turkish embassy in Athens to get the problem solved, because if the Greek has used “Constantopolous” the Turks would have gone ballistic. In the end the Greeks used “Istanbul” and the crisis passed.

    My point is that the only people to name or re-name a place are the locals. As long as the city officially remains “Londonderry”, no one from outside can say otherwise. There is currently a similiar problem in Kerry where the locals are up in arms about having Dingle translated to the Gaelic version. Again it will be the locals who decide this in the end.

  • peteb

    The Turkish ghost shouldn’t have been at the feast, keith. 😉

  • Dave

    BB

    Who is not anti-British?

  • Dec

    Keith M

    Enjoyed the Eurovision anecdote. I know people sneer at us for acting like the Battle of the Boyne happened yesterday but we’ve nothing on the Greeks and Turks who don’t seem to have got over the Siege of troy. However it should be pointed out that 70% of the inhabitants of Istanbul don’t recognise the name.

  • pol

    The name has already been changed when L,derry was dropped from the name of the city council.

    So now we will asking the powers to-be to have the city of London changed to londonDerry to keep the dissenters happy.

  • Dec

    “However it should be pointed out that 70% of the inhabitants of Istanbul don’t recognise the name.”

    That didn’t come out right but you get my drift and my taxi’s just pulled up

  • Weapons of Crass Instruction

    The Apprentice Boys of Londonderry dosen’t quite have the same ring to it does it?.

    Every time I hear the perpetual debate surrounding the Derry/Londonderry issue it never fails to remind me of the story I heard of a Christy Moore gig in London:

    The boul Christy walks onto stage at the concert hall and a hush falls over the audience. Christy lifts up his guitar and straps it across his chest, looks longingly around the concert hall for a few moments and finally says to the audience “Jasus folks but it’s great to be back in Derrylondon again”.

  • yerman

    Firstly,
    Because a party or someone within a party releases a press statement does it mean that this issue is the only thing they are focused on? Therefore the “havent they got anything better to do” line is just absolute tripe.

    Secondly, there are quite a lot of people who sometimes/often use ‘Derry’ as a shorthand for Londonderry, including Protestants within and beyond Londonderry itself that cannot be denied.

    However, this judge was going much further than that. He was just ruling that the wishes of those people who want to retain the name Londonderry (even if they sometimes use the shortened version) should just be ignored and treated as, to quote a shinnerism, second class citizens.

    It cuts to the heart of what has been said. Nationalists, on both sides of the border tell us that unionists will be welcomed with open arms in a united Ireland yet they continually go out of their way to ensure that their actions show that they will act otherwise. Its simply another reason why the ‘Ireland of equals’ rubbish spouted by some is not and cannot ever be true.

    Where in the judges comments was any respect for diversity, any attempt to recognise the wishes of people who wish to retain the name Londonderry? All of those who try to defend his comments are doing exactly the same.

  • Mick Fealty

    Given the proportions of Protestant to Catholics in Derry measures precisely the proportions in a re-united Ireland, is there an (unintended) message going out as to how minority cultures are likely to be dealt with by the new majority?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Given the proportions of Protestant to Catholics in Derry measures precisely the proportions in a re-united Ireland, is there an (unintended) message going out as to how minority cultures are likely to be dealt with by the new majority?

    Is that the worry? Catholics might treat the Protestants like, oh, I don’t know… Protestants treated Catholics?

  • potty

    Clutching at straws, me thinks.

  • WILLIE

    WHEN THE COUNCIL CHANGED THE NAME IN THE 1980S, DID THEY NOT INADVERTENTLY CHANGE THE NAME OF THE CITY AS WELL AND IS THIS NOT BEING DECIDED AT THIS MOMENT?

    APPARENTLY DERRY PEOPLE NOW HAVE THE CHOICE OF NAME FOR BIRTH CERTIFICATES – INCLUDING DOIRE.

  • lib2016

    This is what passes for policy in unionist circles? They’ve got to be getting free samples from their narco-terrorist friends. You know – the ones who are part of the community.

  • GavBelfast

    Parity of esteem anyone?

    It’s not the calling it ‘Derry’ that’s the problem, it’s the lack of respect for those who regard ‘Londonderry’ as its name.

    Hardly the biggest story around but, as always, people need to look at how they would feel if the boot was on the other foot. Certainly, the judge should be censured.

    Not very good at that on this island, are we, tending to want OUR soluations and OUR outcomes, rather than genuine compromise and rapproachment.

  • Brian Boru

    I understand that under UK law, people in a city can change the official name by referendum. Roll on the referendum. Derry will win. Mick Fealty, this is hardly a form of persecution of Protestants.

  • IJP

    Mick

    Yes.

  • lib2016

    GAV

    The people who should be censured are the idiots who persevere with an outmoded name just to wind the themmuns up. Nobody, Catholic or Protestant, unionist or nationalist uses the name ‘Londonderry’ in ordinary speech. The inhabitants own views are well known and the judge was recommending that one should use commonsense. Difficult to find much of that around!

  • John East Belfast

    lib2016

    since when has not “wanting to see this rubbish before him again” become

    “recommending that one should use commonsense”

    The bottom line is that the judge was out of order in both making the statement and also in his manner of doing so.

    You expect a judge to be above such statements as they have absolutely nothing to do with the case in hand.

    Anyhow as pakman has stated above if this had been a northern judge insisting that Londonderry be spelt with the letter L there would have been a nationalist upcry – even though technically he might have been right it wouldn’t have been in the spirit of his duty to impartially dispense justice. I wonder how a Catholic defendant would have felt going before a judge who had just said the aforementioned.

    it is just wrong and people are on here either defending or making light of the indefensible.

  • Brian Boru

    Before Arlene sents that letter to Michael McDowell she should understand that in the Republic of Ireland, the judiciary are independent from the Executive. It is not for the government to decide what judges can and cannot say when presiding over a trial. This is not a police state. I note however, that the UK Government is supposedly talking about legislating for how judges can interpret the Human Rights Act.

    In that context, I suppose I see Arlene’s point of view. Perhaps the idea of a judiciary independent from the executive does not sit well with the DUP. She is entitled then to her opinion but McDowell should bin this letter.

  • lib2016

    John

    I do realise that unionism doesn’t believe in doing the democratic thing but is it really so difficult to understand that the opinion of the majority of Derry’s inhabitants should be be respected?

    A court is a public space. What consenting adults want to call Derry in private is their own affair, but upsetting a judge to score a political point is not a sensible idea.

  • WILLIE

    PLACE NAMES CHANGE ALL THE TIME AS TIME CHANGES -WE ONLY NEED TO LOOK AT EUROPE OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS – EASTERN BLOCK AND FORMER SOVIET STATES TO SEE THAT – IE LENNINGRAD TO ST. PETERSBURG
    IN IRELAND CO. DERRY AND USED TO BE CALLED CO. COLERAINE UNTIL AROUND 1600 OR SO – I THINK DERRY IS BETTER AND WE OWE THE ENGLISH ONE FOR THAT.
    THE PEOPLE LIVING IN DERRY BORN THER WORKING THERE, RAISING FAMILIES THERE AND DYING THERE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT THERE CITY IS CALLED.
    IF THIS IS PERSECUTION OF ‘ONE’ SIDE (I CALL IT DEMOCRACY)THEN THE CREATION OF AND NAME NORTHERN IRELAND IS ALSO AND A MUCH GREATER PERSECUTION OF THE ‘OTHER’ SIDE.
    YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS MICK!

  • Denny Boy

    Any truth in the rumour that the people of Muff, Co. Derry, and those of Offaly, Co. Offal, are seeking name changes?

  • Cui bono?

    Remind me, somebody. Is Arlene getting money from the taxpayer for this?

    Well, I’m sure it’s more urgent than threatened hospital closures, water charges, allegations of gross clinical negligence at Erne hospital, etc, etc.

    Bound to be.

    I mean, why waste time with politics?

  • Denny Boy

    Cui bono, this is what I intimated in another thread. I wondered about various DUP/TF politicians and their track records, i.e. doing what politicians in other countries are elected to do, and actually do – the sort of stuff you’re alluding to above.

    I once googled Jeffrey Donaldson because he’s one of the most vocal of his party. I could find nothing worthwhile he’d actually done or agitated for, apart from making things sultry for nationalists. Maybe someone can enlighten me this time round.

  • 6countyprod

    It’s a matter of respect. When I am talking to Catholics/nationalists, I usually use Derry. When I’m talking to prods, I use either Derry or Londonderry, depending on how lazy or how precise I want to be at the time.

    Sounds like this particular judge is not very tolerant of a Unionist/Protestant viewpoint or expression. Doesn’t bode too well for Protestants in a future UI. That is, maybe in 100 years or so.

    Someone may have already mentioned this, but, surely, even though the city may be Derry, the county is still Londonderry, right?

  • pacart

    The judge was an idiot, why did he even have to comment on the matter, what difference did it make to the case? The Derry/Londonderry thing only became an issue@ 20-25 years ago , before that, whilst Londonderry was the official name everyone used Derry on everyday speech, everyone, check out any archive film you ever see . Now it’s one of those touchstone issues. I work in Derry, if I was to pull up everyone who says Londonderry, I wouln’t get much done.It doesn’t bother me, I don’t think anyone’s that bothered anymore, people just ignore it.

  • pacart

    John East Belfast is 100% right on this, there really isn’t any other argument.

  • GavBelfast

    PACART, people are bothered – hence we’re now at over 40 posts and counting!!!

    But I don’t think it’s about who called it what – it’s about the judge’s attitude. He has made the mountain out of the molehill. Surely a sensible judge would have ignored this, and the whole thing would never have happened.

  • Robert Keogh

    Sounds like this particular judge is not very tolerant of a Unionist/Protestant viewpoint or expression. Doesn’t bode too well for Protestants in a future UI. That is, maybe in 100 years or so.

    Don’t overplay your hand at all. If this the worst that unionism has to fear in the UI then you’ve nothing to worry about. The judge is an arse. There have been a few before and I can guarantee you there’ll be more. Another thing I can guarantee you, he’s getting a bollicking.

  • 6countyprod

    I’m being facetious. What a judge in Monaghan does or says doesn’t concern me in the slightest.

    The only thing good about Monaghan is the cheap petrol, and, of course, all the nice people who live there.

  • beano

    I agree that this is a disgrace, there was no reason to halt court proceedings for a petty outburst.

    Lib2016, I always refer to the city and county as Londonderry, however I will not correct anyone who uses another term. I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “ordinary speech” (or what speech would constitute out-of-the-ordinary) but my above statement stands.

    Let people call it what they like, they will anyway. What’s the point in correcting them when you know fine rightly they’re aware there are differing opinions.

    As for the county – there never was a county Derry.

    Oh and AFAIK the city and county are both officially Londonderry as a city’s name can only be changed by an act of Parliament, however I have only vague memories of reading that some years ago and it could be wrong.

  • pacart

    GavBelfast, that’s exactly what I’m saying!

  • yerman

    And still they continue to defend him…

    No-one stated that this is the worst thing that unionism has to face either in Northern Ireland or in any mythical united Ireland. However, it does show the respect and tolerance which is shown by the nationalist community towards the unionist community when an opportunity arises.

    It is particularly an issue for nationalists given that they have preached the message of tolerance and respect to those nasty unionists for years and years – seems they cant be bothered practising what they preach though.

    The issue is not the end of the world, that probably is why it has only recieved the briefest of statements and precious little coverage – I dont see it becoming a big stumbling block towards an agreement in Northern Ireland. However, it is a symptom of a problem and surely it isnt too much for people to recognise that.

  • Headmelter

    Do loyalists not guard old Derrys walls?

    guarding old londonDerrys walls is a bit of a mouthful.

  • Foggy

    As a native of Derry City this issue has caused me no end of awkwardness when meeting new people, particularly when I moved to Glasgow for University and then Belfast.

    I was at a Uni Halls party in Glasgow as a 19 year old and I recognised a familiar accent. Since i knew the falla was from Norn Iron I asked him what part he hailed from.

    “Ehhhhh…the North West?”

    “What part of the North West? Derry??? Londonderry?”

    “Yeah Londonderry!”

    Ater all that confusion a good night was had by all, including a converstaion about how we both were unsure of how to articulate what town we were from to people that asked (for fear of a hiding etc..)

    I experinced the same thing in Belfast, and most people don’t really give a monkies, but you get the odd grump that will make a point of emphasising the word “Londonderry” to you in converstaion. But people like that are nearly always non-locals of the Madien City.

    Personally, I couldn’t care less what the place is called. I mix’n’match both names when filling out forms etc. Derry is less of a mouthfull.

  • pol

    If we have problems about the name of Derry or
    L-Derry,
    how do you think tourists or investors must feel.
    e.g
    Derry, naw cant find it on the map.
    or
    Can we fly into londonderr, naw they haven’t got an airport.

    So who does it affect the most.

    Yes the people of Doire

  • harry flashman

    Ok a couple of old jokes. A Derryman is on his way home from Dublin, he’s pulled over at the Aughnacloy checkpoint (I told you they were old) he’s asked by the peeler where he’s going “Derry” is the reply, “Don’t you mean Londonderry, sir?” “No I mean Derry” “OK just wait a moment please” after half an hour waiting the cop strolls back “Changed your mind about where you’re going yet sir?” “No, I’m still going to Derry” “Well wait a while longer then”. Half an hour later the guy calls the cop over, “Aha changed our mind then have we sir?” “Yeah” he said “I’m going to Strabane”. Boom boom.

    Another cop stops a motorist Maiden City bound, “Where you going?” “Derry!” the proud Derry wan defiantly asserts “And would that be Ballinderry, Edenderry or Londonderry, sir?”

    For the record as a Derryman born and bred I’ve always said Derry to any official who asked and never received any trouble whatsoever, even from a UDR patrol in the dead of night in Tyrone in 1985. My prod friends refer to it as Derry when chatting but if asked by an outsider where they’re from answer Londonderry, they and I both write Londonderry on official documents, it’s all a matter of compromise and muddling through you see, a bit too simple for the head bangers though.

  • southern observer

    This judge needs his ass kicked for giving all the usual suspects an excuse for characteristic anti-ROI diatribes.

  • hotdogx

    i agree, this judge should get his ass kicked, as far as im concerned the name of the town is derry, a vote should decide this once and for all like in any normal place in the world like edgewordstown/mosstrim or “meas troima” in irish. as far as im concerned everyone that ive met in derry calls the town derry, and anyway derry is the mere english version of the true irish name “doire” is it not.
    Who invented this londonderry stuff anyway as london comes from londinium as it was called by the romans.
    Ah but wait a sec, the romans never came to ireland……

    Again full sectarian marks goes to DUP for trying to profit from this silly nonsense, its only people from outside derry that use the london… as said by derry-natives above! Until the sectarian state built by unionism has a normal balanced secular society comparable to that of the republic they have no right to complain!

    This stupid incident will only go to show unioists that the republic or proposed UI is not anti british when this judge gets his ass kicked, and he will have it kicked!!!!! This would not be the case if it were a unionist judge and a nationalist calling the city derry! The judge would not get his ass kicked in the north for insisting on the london…

  • Mick Fealty

    BB:

    Persecution was not part of my question. I just queried what the action was saying to potential converts to the idea of a re-united Ireland.

    If you don’t wish to answer the question you shouldn’t feel obliged. But I’d rather you didn’t change it to something that wasn’t asked.

  • Cui bono?

    DUP slogan: ‘Leadership that’s working’

    ‘Working’? This must be what Arlene Foster and the DUP call ‘work’.

    Well, better than a real job, I guess.

    Or maybe it’s all part of the plan. Get your electorate all hot and bothered over this sort of tripe, and it means you don’t have to actually do any proper work, y’know, like representing, delivering… governing?

  • Cui bono?

    As to the ‘leadership’ bit, well, that must be a Trade Descriptions offence – or a mistake. 😉

  • missfitz

    Apart from the DUP website, has anyone else seen anything relating to this, or a more full account of the story? While I am not casting any doubt on the DUP version, nor inferring that there might be an agenda, I thought it would be interesting to get the whole story, and numerous searches have turned nothing up.

    Just wondering……..

  • wessy

    Diane Doods believes that the uvf are an integral part of unionist communities.

    And the dup are worried about some county court judge ?

  • WILLIE

    Unless Arlene was born in Derry, lives in derry and pays rates there – she should keep her nose out of it.
    The citizens of Derry don’t go around telling people of other towns/ cities what they should call same.
    The ratepayers of Derry have decided – thats democracy for you.
    Apparently Arlene is a Lawyer – maybe someone could remind her that the N.I. General Register Office allows the citizens of Derry to decide what they want on the Birth certificate of the child – this also includes Doire, i am pretty sure that this also applies to Driving Licences and Passports including British.

  • Brian Boru

    Mick, my reply to your question is that in any country, you get judges who make controversial remarks. That shouldn’t necessarily reflect badly on the treatment of minorities within a country.

  • stu

    hotdogx

    “…only people from outside derry that use the london… as said by derry-natives above! Until the sectarian state built by unionism has a normal balanced secular society comparable to that of the republic they have no right to complain!”

    What that be a balanced secular society, that, for example, would hold freedom of speech as an ideal? I think that’s the issue; if the defendent is from the Maiden City he has every right to call it Londonderry if he wants; the judge doesn’t have the right to disregard his views out of hand as ‘nonsense’. A lot of the people say the defendant should have respect for the opinion of ‘the majority of Derry’s inhabitants’ (lib) but he’s a Derryman himself…

    “This would not be the case if it were a unionist judge and a nationalist calling the city derry! The judge would not get his ass kicked in the north for insisting on the london…

    Personally, I’m all for calling Derry, it never has and never will bother me, it’s not my home and people from there can call it what they will. However, a judge here in the north would not insist on the prefix, for fear of the fallout: he or she would know that they would casting doubt on their ability to provide an impartial oversight of the judicial process.

    As for the ‘balanced secular state’ of the Republic, well, that’s the other potential Unionist/Protestant fear – if a member of the ‘independent’ judiciary makes a display of intolerance for difference of opinion, and a willingness to make a political statement, where will Unionists be in a United Ireland? Besides G-man’s (very sensible) idea for a referendum and those who approved, the argument seems to be that ‘Catholics might treat the Protestants like, oh, I don’t know… Protestants treated Catholics?’ (Dread Cthulu) and that smacks of a very realy, sinister one-manupship, and further fuels Unionist/Protestant fears of how they would be treated in a UI. If it wasn’t OK for Catholics to be mistreated, it’s not OK for Protestants to be (hypothetically) mistreated, and with language like that, you are merely giving the DUP leadership, and their like, fuel to say they will be.

  • missfitz

    http://www.unison.ie/anglo_celt/stories.php3?ca=40&si=1467619&issue_id=12993

    Well, I found the answer, and for anyoneinterested in the case of Xin Jiang at Monaghan Court, I have pasted the link.

  • cladycowboy

    It does seem to have been a stupid thing for the judge to have said and can see the concerns raised by Mick. I be in courts(english) most days and i’ve seen that judges are only too human and prone to gaffes. We weren’t in the courtroom, the defendent may have acted flippantly throughout and this may have led the judge to try and put him in his place(as a defendent not a protestant), then again perhaps not.
    I call it Derry, i think the majority of its inhabitants do likewise,including the county. Londonderry, does seem a contrived territorial pissing name to begin with. The London pre-fix has nothing to do with protestant culture but taken from the name of the company that bought up large parts of Derry during the plantation. I’m not sure if they still own the majority of the county or have since dissolved, probably the latter. With them gone, should we now be calling it Tescoderry or something? Nikebangkok?
    I say a poll of the inhabitants should decide it. How about Londaindoire as a compromise to everyone? Londonderry in the language of its inhabitants whence first it was called it.

  • Paul

    If the somebody says to me that my country is called “Ulster”, “The North” or even “The Occupied NE Corner of God’s Own Country”, I take a long breath and count to 10. I could point out that under the relevant constitutional law, the correct internationally recognised name is Northern Ireland. But why should I bother-it’s up to them what they call the place and in the end completely unimportant in the big scheme of things.

    If this guy wants to call Derry, Londonderry what’s the big problem-why does that one little prefix so irritate a Monaghan judge, what in earth has it got to do with him or anyone else that doesn’t come from the damned place?

    If legally “Derry” has got to be put in the book, then put in without the snide comments. A bit of common sense and parity of esteem(remember that old chestnut?) would have saved a lot of hassle in this case.

  • PS

    Much ado about nothing, methinks.

    The Judge got his proverbial knickers in a twist over a very small and insignificant issue. Let people use a prefix of a foreign city if they so desire. Derry is Derry and many Protestants agree with me on this. Arlene Foster must have little enough to do with her time.

  • Banger

    Yes, the judge was wrong, but wasn’t this nonsense supposed to be in the process of being sorted out by the City Council. I understood the Council to be currently ‘equality-proofing’ the changing of the name to ‘Derry’. Let’s be honest, it’s the only sensible result. I don’t know one single protestant who refers to the city as ‘Londonderry’. It never ceases to bemuse me when I hear various hardline DUP-types who in private (and I’ve heard them) say ‘Derry’ and then when plonked in front of a camera say ‘Londonderry’.

  • waterside Derryman

    Unionists have controlled Derry since the walls were built – despite being a minority then as now.
    Their most recent stewardship of the city since partition it is not happy reading – apart from gerrymander; job discrimination; and as good as no housing allocation for catholics on the westbank – ‘faceless men’ worked against the interests of the city – allowing the dismantling of infastructure closing 2 of 3 railway lines and giving the 2nd University to Coleraine – despite there being a third level college already in the town.
    If these men had had more civic pride and did their best for ‘Londonderry’ creating jobs and sharing power this issue would have been less divisive now instead they did a ‘lundy’ on the city.
    Derry needs to look ahead now and not back to the bad old tainted days of ‘Londonderry’.

  • Oxymoron

    Denny Boy
    *Any truth in the rumour that the people of Muff, Co. Derry, and those of Offaly, Co. Offal, are seeking name changes?*

    Muff is now Eglinton…and has been for over a century.

    There is still a Muff near Derry but it is to be found in Co. Donegal.

    *harummpph*

  • Dualta

    I posted on this a long time ago and, prompted by Mick’s contribution, I’ll post my earlier argument again.

    Now that the Republican Movement has accepted the principle of consent I think it’s fair to conclude that the only way we’re going to achieve a united Ireland is through persuasion.

    It is now for Nationalists to persuade Protestants that it is in their best interests to join the rest of us on this island in building a new nation together.

    Nationalists are going to have to be imaginative and brave. The Adams’ leadership has moved this process on considerably, and commendably, insofar as we’ve more or less stopped killed Protestants. A necessary step in confidence building, I’m sure you’d agree.

    Now we have to find new ways of building the trust of Protestants in us in how they would be treated in an all-island nation and the Derry/Londonderry is one such opportunity.

    As Mick pointed out, the demographics of Londonderry roughly match those of the whole island, in the percentage of Catholics and Protestants. It’s not surprising that some Unionists view the city as a testbed of what might happen in a 32 county state.

    This issue has resurfaced often recently, especially directly prior to elections when former Sinn Fein councillor Barney O’Hagan raised it. It always struck me as being pretty short-sighted electioneering, given the need for achieving consent.

    Would it now be more reasonable to let the name Londonderry remain, as a gesture to Protestants that Nationalists mean business when we talk about a new nation on this island for all of the peoples of this island?

    Indeed, if we were to accept this argument, we would not only accept the name Londonderry for the city, but we, Nationalists, would use it ourselves with a sense of pride, knowing that each time we said it, we’d bring unity of the people of this island, just a little bit closer.

    Say Londonderry, and say it with pride.

  • Banger

    Dualta – all very noble my friend, but this business of “o.k, the prods have behaved like absolute cunts, treated us like absolute shit and specialised in behaving in a stubborn, petulant puerile fashion but, hey, the way to deal with that is to shower them with love and indulge their stubborn wrong-headed nonsense” jsut seems achingly right-on to me.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    The Adams’ leadership has moved this process on considerably, and commendably, insofar as we’ve more or less stopped killed Protestants.

    Ack sure thats all that matters as long as their not killing us anymore thats makes it all better…. sheesh protestants will NEVER trust SF/IRA again!

    as a gesture to Protestants that Nationalists mean business when we talk about a new nation on this island for all of the peoples of this island?

    It’ll take more than a good will gesture to persuade the majority of Unionists.

    Its good to see a reasonable comment on this thread, but unfortunately there are a few more important issues when it comes to a UI than just the name of a city.

  • Paul

    “Its good to see a reasonable comment on this thread, but unfortunately there are a few more important issues when it comes to a UI than just the name of a city.”

    Unfortunately the views Dualta expressed, I would reckon, would be those of a very small minority.

    Banger’s attitude, “We’re in the majority now, let’s give them a taste of their own medicine”,is a lot more repesentative and actually a lot easier to deal with!

  • lib2016

    “We’re in the majority now, let’s give them a taste of their own medicine” is a bit of a stretch. Does it not seem possible that nationalists have a right to recognition of their traditions?

    And that as nationalists finally and at long long last achieve power in NI, the official idealogy and character of the place will change? RTE and TG 4 will become part of the mental furniture here soon. Don’t unionists realise what parity means or what the GFA entailed?

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    lib how about a deal? You get RTE/TG4 on DTT in place of, I don’t know, whichever channels get least viewers (Men & Motors/FTN?) and the BBC agree to stop broadcasting Gaelic matches and those Irish language programs. Sounds fair enough to me.

  • waterside Derryman

    With Arlene now in the DUP – she really needs to do her homework. If Gregory Campbell and the DUP had got their way in the 1980s (and it always comes down to Unionists getting their way)there would now be two Londonderrys (city and county) and one Derry (city, westbank for those who don’t know the geography) with the DUPS madcap nakedly sectarian scheme of having another council in the waterside.
    The notion this this is about Unionist equality and parity of esteem is only a smokescreen and denies the Derry citizens and ratepayers those same rights.
    I would’nt worry too much about the prefix London (and thats all it is) dropping off the map at one end of the north the DUP will probably rename another town the same somewhere else. We only have to look at past unionist attempts to rename and create cities reflecting their supremacy in the north whilst ignoring all others – the other unionist folly of Craigavon with accompannying roundabouts – no pun intended – at least the DUP can’t be blamed for that one but i doubt that they will have learned anything from it.

  • Alan2

    I haven`t got a problem with Derry. I use Derry quite alot. I also use Londonderry sometimes for the citya and alwyas for the County (there never was a County Derry…it was County Coleraine until the walled city of Londonderry was built on over Derry). The problem is with an imbecile judge (and there are plenty of thoe about), flagging this up for a motoring offence

  • lib2016

    What the BBC broadcast after they leave NI doesn’t really matter to me. For the short time that they remain it would be nice if they reflected a little more of the majority tradition on this island.

    It would have been preferable if the powers that be had treated Irish in the same way as Welsh or Scottish Gaelic has been treated in their respective homelands but that’s impossible now.

    The BBC barred RTE and TG4 and who am I to dispute with a great national broadcaster. If they say that there aren’t suitable wavebands for everybody available we should accept their arguments. A simple substitution will do nicely – after all we know, because unionists keep telling us so, that nationalists have no possible grievances.

  • darthrumsfeld

    Mick, my reply to your question is that in any country, you get judges who make controversial remarks. That shouldn’t necessarily reflect badly on the treatment of minorities within a country.

    …so the next time an English High Court Judge says that blacks are more likely to commit muggings, we’ll alll just ignore it?

    Mick has got it spot on.The lack of respect for Unionist culture from Nationalists never ceases to amaze me. This is such a no brainer that to allow Arlene the opportunity for some cheap publicity is just stupid.

    And for the benefit of Willie and the other maiden city moaners-be careful what you wish for. if there’s ever a united Ireland one prerequisite will be the formal recognition of Unionist culture, as Michael McDowell has recognised om another thread -at which time not only will the irish Government and judiciary recognise it as Londonderry we may see the return of Kingstown, Queenstown, Sackville Street, Carlisle Bridge…and Mick will be elected a Knight of the restored Order of Saint Patrick. And of course the shameful political appointments of Judges can only mean Lady Chief Justice Foster

  • willie

    Darth you either acknlowledge Unionist misrule and discrimination in Derry or you don’t – but you can not deny the citizenry and ratepayers of Derry democracy – unless you are in the DUP and are trying to turn the clock back – which i am sure you are not.
    In a United Ireland Unionists will have the same rights as every other Irish citizen – no more and no less.
    As in any Democracy they will have a say and a vote – more than can be said for Northern Ireland’s political history.
    I would’nt worry too much about the great protector of rights Michael Mc Dowell – if you place your trust in him you are likely to end up on a plane being deported for the colour of your skin – this hardly fills me (and should not fill you with too much confidence.