Orange to re-run Saturday's parade?

That’s the word. Though it doesn’t appear to have been confirmed yet.

  • El Matador @ El Blogador

    This is a joke. Talk about a calamity of errors.

    The OO should be ashamed. Belfast has been ravaged for the past week- for an organisation that claims to care about NI, they have a funny way of showing it. They’ve had plenty of time to get their act together, but clearly they’re loathe to throw a few quid together to pay for some PR advice.

    Assuming this story is accurate, what exactly do they hope to achieve? The days have gone when they could get their way regardless of other people’s rights.

    Sorry lads, but Stormont closed three decades ago.

  • fair_deal

    El Matador

    “they’re loathe to throw a few quid together to pay for some PR advice.”

    The OO hired PR professionals about 18 months/2 years ago and believe it or not but the press conference was their PR adviser’s idea.

  • fair_deal

    “regardless of other people’s rights”

    Article’s 9-11 don’t contravene anyone else’s rights

  • curious

    Article 9-11 may contravene another person’s rights under Article 8

  • El Matador

    Fair Deal,

    In that case I would suggest they consult the yellow pages in search of new advisors. To send one of the Order’s top dogs on saying he ‘condoned violence’ was unbelievable. They had four days to sort a line out, and now everyone’s just laughing at them.

    We’re not talking rocket science here, even if it is well nigh impossible to defend the indefensible.

  • bootman

    If this is true then I am seriuosly worried that extreme unionism is attempting to build-up as much violence and tension as possible to provoke republicans rather tahn have to face the prospect of engaging in politics.
    I would find any other ressoning very difficult to understand

  • 9countyprovience

    All this is great press for Sinn Fein. Here’s an artical from a U.S. paper called ‘The Republican’ (of the George ‘I need to go to the toilet in the middle of a U.N. conferance Bush kind of Republican:

    Protestant leader linked to Irish riots
    Friday, September 16, 2005
    By JO-ANN MORIARTY
    jo-ann.moriarty@newhouse.com
    WASHINGTON – Gerry Adams, the head of the political wing of the Irish Republican Army, a Catholic paramilitary organization, yesterday said he did not fault the Protestant teenagers who have been rioting in Belfast but their political representatives.

    Adams told lawmakers on Capitol Hill yesterday that it was crucial that Ian Paisley participate in the peace accord. Paisley is the leader of the largest Protestant party in Northern Ireland, the Democratic Unionist Party.

    Paisley, who wants to keep a union with the British crown, refuses to meet with Adams at the peace table. If he agreed to share power with Catholics in Northern Ireland, Paisley would hold the top political position.

    Instead, Adams said Paisley is not promoting peace between Catholics and Protestants because he does not want to share power.

    “In the context of the rioting, the situation involves the whole spectrum of unionists,” Adams said. “Ian Paisley organized a rally for the Orange Men,” a fraternal organization that holds hundreds of provocative parades each year promoting their ties with the British crown.

    The rioting began in Belfast last Saturday after an Orange Order march was routed away from Catholic neighborhoods.

    Adams said that film footage of the action shows members of the Orange Order rioting against property and British soldiers.

    “Blast bombs and Molotov cocktails have been thrown over 3½ days, and there have been hundreds of attacks on Catholic homes and Catholic properties, schools and churches,” Adams said.

    “The responsibility lies squarely with unionism. It isn’t enough for unionism to be rhetorical about their response. They have to show positive leadership,” Adams said. “I can’t blame a teenager if his political leadership won’t engage in dialogue.”

    Adams met with U.S. Rep. Richard E. Neal and 12 other members of Congress in the Springfield Democrat’s Capitol Hill office for more than hour and reported that despite the ongoing rioting and the attack on British soldiers by members of Protestant paramilitary groups, the people of Northern Ireland want to proceed with the peace accord – known as the Good Friday Agreement, approved in 1998.

    “We all agree in the room today that Prime Minister (Tony) Blair remains the pivotal figure in moving the Good Friday Agreement forward,” Neal said, adding that Paisley has to be pressured to take a seat at the peace table.

    “It is very provocative,” said U.S. Rep. James T. Walsh, R-N.Y., about the violence, “especially at a time when the total decommissioning of the IRA is imminent. We encourage the peace-loving people of Northern Ireland in both traditions to continue that restraint.”

    On July 20, the outlawed Irish Republican Army publicly stated it no longer needed guns to protect its civil rights and would leave those matters to politics.

    “I am confident that the commitment made by the IRA on July 20 will be honored,” Adams told lawmakers.

  • overhere

    I think they should be allowed to march as long as it is not in a contensious area. If they want to march to City hall let them after all they have done it in the past, remember Ian’s famous NEVER NEVER NEVER diatribe.

    What good will it do, what would be the reason behind it? If it is to say to the Government they feel they are not getting their fair share, we have seen over the past week this is simply not so. If they are threatening to inflict terror unless they have the same priviledges they had pre 1969 then it is not ghoing to happen.

    If it is a “Love Ulster” stunt then it will be seen as such and be ignored by everyone with a right thinking mind.

  • fair_deal

    El Matador

    We agree, consensus huurah. On the need for new advisers I agree entirely and had been suggesting so long before now.

    That particular individual kept mixing the words condemn and condone up.

    Curious

    A public procession does not invade someone’s privacy, their home or their persoanl correspondence so there is no contravention of Article 8.

  • fearganainm

    all we need now is for Papa Doc to make another “let slip the spides of war” comment and we’re all set for another w/e of british culture.

  • Nestor Makhno

    ‘… remember Ian’s famous NEVER NEVER NEVER diatribe’

    Actually he said “NEVER NEVER NEVER [pause] NEVER” – which I, at the time, thought over-egged the pudding somewhat.

    (It would have been funnier if he’d ended on MAYBE… but I guess it wasn’t a time for joking.)

  • Northern FF

    If these guys LOVE ULSTER, why do they keep trying to wreck it?

  • overhere

    LOL

    Thanks for the Friday afternoon laugh Nestore made my day

  • Hektor Bim

    What are articles 8-11, anyway?

    Fair Deal,

    you seem to have a fair amount of knowledge of the affected area and some sympathy for the marchers. What possible motivation is there for rescheduling the march? There will almost certainly be violence and even bloodshed, and the image of unionists will just sink even farther.

  • curious

    fair_deal,

    Perhaps if you learned to read properly you would observe that I used the word “may”. European human rights jurisprudence is a dynamic area of the law and is constantly evolving. One can’t say for definite that something which isn’t a contravention today won’t be a contravention tomorrow.

  • El Matador

    Fair Deal,

    The rights provided under the articles you mentioned are not inalienable and can be restricted thus:

    Art. 9: Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

    Art. 10: The exercise of these freedoms [of expression], since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

    Art. 11: No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights [to freedom of peaceful assembly] other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. this article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.

    The Parades Commission, as an instrument of government, has such authority to restrict these rights

  • fair_deal

    I don’t know if the OO is going to apply or not. There are lots of rumours flying about at the minute so I’d wait and see. There is a non-OO band parade in the Shankill tomorrow so people may be adding two plus two and coming up with 10. Also as some wish to frustrate the PSNI at the minute, the rumour means they have to be prepared to police it regardless.

    The rational for asking is to continue the pressure on the authorities about the denial of Articles 9-11.

    Curious

    As Article 8 is presently interpreted there is no conflict with 9-11.

    El Matador

    In addition to the articles you have the case law that has reviewed actions of the state in regard to how they can act on the limitations so that is where the PC falls down.

    Furthermore the most fundamental review of procession rights and case law took place for the political transition in South Africa by the four world experts they state:

    “First local authorities should not as a general rule be empowered to deny a demonstrating group the right to demonstrate in a particular place or at a particular time on the ground demonstrators will be attacked violently by their opponents. The only exception to this rule recognised in the countries we have examined is where the police are demonstrably unable to provide protection for the demonstrating group despite bearing the costs and inconvenience of a very substantial effort to guarantee the safety of the demonstrators. To allow hostile parties to prevent a demonstration by threatening violenc is to give then the very freedom to foreclose a FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC RIGHT (my emphasis) which the STATE MUST DENY ITSELF. The only answer is to restrict the activities of the violent opponent of the demonstration, not the peaceful expression of the demonstrators.

    We do not believe that there is any distinction to be drawn in this regard in terms of whether the demonstrators intend to provoke their opponents by the peaceful demonstration. This is too difficult to determine and too easy a conclusion to manipulate; it should make no difference. Nor should it make a difference that the demonstrators want to march peacefully through a “hostile” area. Speaking to those hostile to them is part of the democratic rights of citizens”

    There are other arguments the nationalist community could be making about parades. I just don’t think that the human rights one is the good card.

  • Pat, Ardoyne

    Fair Deal – Can you tell us all if Nationalists are also entitled to this “Fair Deal”, that is do Unionists and Loyalists also agree to Nationalists/Republicans having equal rights to walk the very same roads that are causing the current dispute. Would the local Unionist community welcome a Nationalist parade past their doors whilst they are barricaded in their homes for hours on end? Nationalists could ask for parades, on the same terms as the Orange Order, from the Whiterock down the Springfield Road to the Falls or from Ligoniell down the Crumlin Road to Ardoyne past a similar small section of “the other side”. Or would such parades be a little too much like equality?

  • fair_deal

    “Nationalists/Republicans having equal rights to walk the very same roads that are causing the current dispute.”

    Yes they do. I personally don’t seek a right then seek to deny it to others.

    “Would the local Unionist community welcome a Nationalist parade past their doors whilst they are barricaded in their homes for hours on end?”

    1. They shouldn’t threaten violence that would require such a security operation.
    2. They probably wouldn’t welcome it but they have no right to stop it. If they wish to express opposition or disagreement with the parade they should do so peacefully

    “Nationalists could ask for parades, on the same terms as the Orange Order,”

    1. The AOH already does in some communities.
    2. The nationalist and unionist communities are not mirror images of one another and do not have the same traditon of parades but if that is the way nationalist communities want their identity to develop that is up to them.

    “Or would such parades be a little too much like equality?”

    1. It would be learning to share space and a positive development.

  • LOL 247

    My sources are telling me this story is not true. As far as I know, there will be no march tomorrow.

  • Angel

    I’m a bit confused about these parades. Why does each parade go down a different route?

    Here (USA) there is only one parade route for ALL and ANY parade people want to hold. It’s usually a route that goes through a local down town area. This serves two purposes, one so’s not to disrupt anyone’s lives and two, to boost the ecomony of local shops. If someone wants to see the parade they go downtown, fight for parking(if you had to drive there),find a place along the sidewalk or curb, set up lawn chairs, maybe visit local shops while looking for a place to sit or while waiting for the parade to begin.

    Parade’s are announced weeks in advance (newspaper, store flyers, radio, etc.) so if you don’t want to go to the parade you don’t have to and everyone knows where the parade is beeing held because it’s the same place every time.

    So why all the different routes?

  • oolsterman

    Angel…..Are Americans thick or what? Sure where would the fun be if we went down the same route every time, or if we only went where people wanted us?

  • Angel

    Are Americans thick or what?

    You don’t have to be nasty. All I wanted was a little clarification.

  • Denny Boy

    Angel, the wee oolsterman wasn’t being nasty, but sarcastic.

    But, being American, you wouldn’t understand sarcasm :0)

  • Enniskillen DUP

    Pat,

    “..do Unionists and Loyalists also agree to Nationalists/Republicans having equal rights to walk the very same roads that are causing the current dispute.”

    The orange order/unionists don’t decide to have a parade on a contentious route. Many of these parades have been following the same route for decades if not much longer. It is only latly that they have became contentious.

    It is not a nationalist tradition to march and to suddenly create a parade theough a contentious area would be wrong. However this has developed in parts of Belfast and Ballymena recently.

    “whilst they are barricaded in their homes for hours on end?”

    If you are refering to the parade on the Crumlin Road then you must be mistaken. You obviously don’t know much about your own area. Hundreds of rioters on the streets; some of whom had travelled considerable distances hardly constitutes barricaded people in their home for hours on end!

  • SlugFest

    Denny Boy:

    Who you kidding? We Americans invented sarcasm!

    Angel:
    I’m with Denny Boy on this one … I’m sure Oolsterman was only joking — at the OO’s expense, not yours.

  • VICTOR1

    There are well over 3000 parades every year. Less than 1 per cent result in trouble of any kind, that constitutes an erosion of the Orange orders culture and rights, just imagine drop 30 parades and we could all live happily ever after! LOL

  • tina

    Rioting is a great way of helping to improve the life of working class unionist areas

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4254318.stm

    Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that the uff & uvf are poisoning the next generation of working class loyalists with their drugs.

    And these scumbags are claiming to be our protectors against police heavy treatment

    Wake up and smell the grass !!!!

  • fair_deal

    VICTOR1

    “Less than 1 per cent result in trouble of any kind”

    An old, pointless and false chestnut. The number of areas affected by objections keeps growing so the 1% keeps growing. A decade ago there were no protests against parades in Ballymena, Rasharkin, Short Strand, Kilrea etc etc. Also Martin Ferris’s speech of militant not militarist at the recent Provofest at Mullaghbawn (which as far as I can find out was publicly funded) made clear parade agitation was a central part of their future strategy.

    The Whiterock parade has had its route changed 5 times. The response of nationalists – block it entirely (until the PSNI got a road specially built to facilitate a 6th re-routing).

    In the 1980’s the Portadown district cut the number of parades nationalists objected to from 10 to 2 then to 1. The nationalist response to this compromise – to demand an end to the 1.

    While nationalists have problems with parades the agitation around them is about a much bigger game. Sinn Fein has learnt they are good for stirring up communal hositility and that they are the electoral beneficiaries of the hostility. However, the problems at Ardoyne show they have difficulties in controlling the sectarian genie they released.

  • dom

    Why do the orange order carry paramilitary flags and uvf banners commemorating former uvf commanders at the Whiterock parade.

    Is it not surprising that Nationalist residents would object to this display.

  • pacart

    Angel, I don’t know how anyone from this ridiculous, beknighted country has the nerve to try and paint Americans as stupid, we are the laughing stock of the world. The solution you propose assumes we are dealing with sensible, rational people who actually want this mess sorted out, we are not. This is all about marking territory and establishing who is top dog in a nasty, divided society.
    You are probably imagining a happy, fun parade with high school kids, floats and cheerleaders, you could not be further from the truth. You might be shocked to hear that some of these bands are dedicated to, and carry the insignia of loyalist death squads and that some of these bands have been, and remain, active recruiting grounds for these same loyalist death squads and that the people who were the target of these death squads are expected to welcome them into their streets.
    Incidently, are the OO not embarassed by that figure of 3000 parades? Never mind the contentious parades, the non-contentious ones represent a huge inconvenience for the public, a minor point I know but I would have thought a self-proclaimed Christian organisation would have some regard for their neighbours.

  • Comrade Stalin

    fair_deal, you’re pushing the boat out with this stuff.

    “Sinn Fein has learnt they are good for stirring up communal hositility “

    You really reckon that if a chap marches past someone’s front door with a UVF banner, that it’s Sinn Fein stirring up communal hostility ? You reckon that when a march passes the Ormeau Road and the marchers make salutes and shout slogans at a sectarian murder scene, that doesn’t stir up communal hostility ?

    I’m afraid you can’t blame all of this contention on either Sinn Fein or intransigent nationalists. You must accept the fact that there are very good reasons in a lot of cases why people are very unhappy about having to put up with this “culture” which would not be tolerated in any other part of the civilized world.

    The marching problem is not going to be solved until people stop trying to say that the Orange Order are a bunch of harmless old men calmly walking to church. This is an organization which, as we have seen this weekend, is overrun by loyalist paramilitaries and their supporters and apologists. It’s members refuse to condemn UVF/UDA violence and openly attack the police, have a hand in stirring up trouble and creating resentment. Sinn Fein does not choose who the Orange Order decides to allow into it’s ranks. Sinn Fein does not force Orange Order members to break ranks and attack police.

    “However, the problems at Ardoyne show they have difficulties in controlling the sectarian genie they released.”

    “released” ? Sectarianism is undoubtedly exploited by Sinn Fein, but they did not invent it. They did not decide one day that the marches were offensive.

    The business at Whiterock is about allowing paramilitaries to openly march down a road. Why do you believe this is defensible ?

  • Denny Boy

    Angel, all joking aside, allow me to follow up on pacart’s post and try to put these Orange marches into an American perspective.

    Imagine, if you will, the members of the Seventh Cavalry Drum and Bugle Corps marching through the Lakota Sioux reservation in South Dakota, flying banners reading “Remember Wounded Knee”, and accompanied by hordes of rednecks aflame with popskull whisky.

    Got the picture now?

  • Declan

    Denny Boy,

    That is probably the most startling accurate comparison of the Orange Order I have ever heard.

    You’re on the ball.

  • cladycowboy

    Enniskillen DUP

    ‘It is not a nationalist tradition to march and to suddenly create a parade theough a contentious area would be wrong. However this has developed in parts of Belfast and Ballymena recently.’

    Excuse me? Are you attempting to halt the advance of a culture? What sort of absolutist are you? You’re meant to hate this sort of restriction of freedom when you don the sash of every sunday of every f****ng week going. That is what you march for, or haven’t you been told?
    The Protestant community of Ireland didn’t decide to hold Orange parades for a century after Willie(when they ‘contrived’a new identity)came to Ireland so sheesh if you think that Republicans can’t march for the glorification of Bobby Sands a mere uncontrived 24yrs after his death. I’m afraid DUP you can’t draw a line in the sand or hold back the tide Canute-like. We’ll see how much you value freedom of expression(for all) when they’re Orange marches in Springfield with simultaneous Republican marches past Tigers Bay. GET THE FUCK OVER THIS SHIT

  • Declan

    Enniskillen DUP,

    In slightly less angry tones, I know what Cladycowboy is trying to say.

    Unionism has a huge credibility crisis at the moment, and it all boils down to one thing. Hypocrisy.

    To use the example of the Ballymena parade, while I have no time for dissident republicans, the Orange Order cannot on the one hand demand to march wherever and whenever it likes, and then complain (and by extension of that complaint, attack Catholic homes in Ahoghill) when republicans remember their dead in a demonstration that was confined to the Fisherwick Estate. This parade may have commemorated terrorists, but then again that’s what Orange parades do.

    Unionism cannot reject republicans in government on the basis that they are terrorists, and then rub shoulders with terrorists from their own community, and act as apologists for them (as we have witnessed this week). They won’t sit round the Executive table with Sinn Féin, but are quite happy to have tea and custard creams, through the Loyalist Commission and the ridiculous ‘Love Ulster’ farce amongst others, with the same UDA and UVF knuckle-draggers who murder their own constituents and poison them with drugs.

    Unionism cannot whinge about depravation in loyalist working-class areas when they have barely touched on bread-and-butter issues. Every utterance from the mouth of unionism is about the constitutional question.

    Unionists cannot uphold their right to walk the queen’s highway when they block that same highway every night for a week.

    Unionism reveres the security forces, and then attacks those same security forces, and attempts to murder its members, when it doesn’t get its own way.

    I could go on and on, but I think I’ve made my point. The stench of hypocrisy coming from unionism at the minute is truly putrid.

  • The Binlid

    Enniskillen DUP,

    “The orange order/unionists don’t decide to have a parade on a contentious route. Many of these parades have been following the same route for decades if not much longer. It is only latly that they have became contentious.”

    Sorry to interrupt your silence since the weekends events. You were certainly conspicuous by your lack of posts. Mind you it took the OO five days to entertain us with their version of events. Their apologists and supporters probably think it’s safe to come out now as they couldn’t possibly make a bigger ballix of things.

    Many of these ‘parades’ have been ‘contentious’ for a long time. Over the years things change, the ‘conflict’ has ended and a different era is with us.
    People in these areas feel threatened, intimidated and restricted while these ‘parades’ infest their neighbourhoods.
    The OO don’t even have the decency, sense or respect for other peoples civil or religious rights, to discuss concerns with local residents now never mind a decade ago. They lack the ability and willingness to even understand how they are perceived,not only by the locals but by the entire world.
    World media has helped to change things, nationalists are no longer dependant on lord nelson styled, censored news and press reports which tended to magnify certain ‘rights’ but minimised others.
    Local residents now feel able to voice their concern and objections regarding these parades because there are now ways and means of doing so that did not exist ‘decades if not much longer’ ago.
    Fortunately or unfortunately recent events have shown the world what the OO, unionist elected representatives and loyalists to be just what they have been since partition and before, grandiously deluded, short sighted, bigotted, sectarian, unreasonable and stuck in a time warp.
    Demographics have changed and these ‘traditional routes’ are no longer traditional to the people who live in these areas.
    Is it not about time the OO decided NOT to ‘parade’ on a contentious route, moved into the twenty first century and accepted their triumphalist attitude and unreasonable behaviour is not welcome in these areas any longer.

    “If you are refering to the parade on the Crumlin Road then you must be mistaken”

    Handy bout of amnesia or temporary blindness there, the rest of the world happens to be talking about the whiterock ‘parade’. You obviously saw last weekends events in much the same darkness as Bob and Dozey.

  • VICTOR1

    Less than 1 per cent result in trouble of any kind”

    An old, pointless and false chestnut.

    Strange that fair_deal, as I took it from the Orange Orders website! Then again you could be right given the neanderthals running the Orange Order as Mr Baillie says I condone violence from wherever it comes!
    Tell me fair_deal, how many parades DO the Orange Order have in a year in Ireland?
    How many are contentious?
    Couldn’t Sinn Fein move people to live in other areas where the Orange march, say the Newtownards Rd?
    Why do the Orange Order march to their buses when there is a Catholic Chapel on the route, when they could board buses before the Chapel?
    Why do the Orange Order march past Ardoyne shops to board buses on route to parades in other parts of the North?
    fair_deal, See it as it is, the Orange Order feel thier culture is being eroded yet the facts from thier website show this to be a falsehood, unless of course they feel a parade isn’t a parade unless it passes areas of contention! Whatever the correct figures(I wouldn’t trust the Orange website either) with regard to parades, the undeniable truth is the vast majority go unchallenged because they take place where they are accepted! It seems the Orange and thier followers only recognise parades when they are forced through areas where the residents are hemmed in behind massive security cordones, would this be true fair_deal, you should know?

  • abucs

    Wasn’t the troubles all about horrible Republican terrorists using violence against nice decent Unionists ?

    With the standing down of the IRA, shouldn’t those nice decent law abiding Unionists be rejoicing that NI is once again ‘back to normal’ ?

    Republicans always said their violence was reactionary. If the OO keep this up, Republicans are going to look more and more correct.

  • fair_deal

    CS

    As I said
    “While nationalists have problems with parades”

    However, Sinn Fein are milking it for much more than getting legitimate nationalist concerns about parades addressed.

    Victor

    1. The 1% figure has been about for a long time when resident hate groups began and needs updated. (Back when objections were limited to a small number of place like Poratdown, Ormeau Road)
    2. Objections to, restrictions on and those that have “trouble” are not necessarily the same thing.
    3. Also the OO does not invest heavily in its website.

    “Mr Baillie says I condone violence from wherever it comes!”

    As they made clear at the conference he got the words condone and condemn mixed up. So he condemned violence from wherever it came from – do you have a problem with that?

    “Why do the Orange Order march past Ardoyne shops to board buses on route to parades in other parts of the North?”

    Your ignorance of OO parades is shocking. The OO does not hold any parade past Ardoyne were they then board a bus. The OO parades past the Ardoyne area are to go to and from the Tour of the North parade, the Whiterock parade and the Twelfth of July.

    “How many are contentious?”

    I can only speak for my own OO County. If contentious is defined as parades that have nationalists objections – in Belfast, every OO parade that goes to the city centre is contentious (with the except of the parades originating in Sandy Row. In Belfast if the OO stopped all contentious parades as you suggest citizens of Belfast would not be allowed to go into their own city centre – remember when republicans said access to the city centre for republcian marches was a test if their “2nd class citizenship in belfast” was over – nice consistent approach to equality).

    Of the mini-Twelfth demonstrations there are objections to the Ormeau district route, Sandy Row district route, one of the two Tour of the North routes and Ballymacarett district route.

    So my estimate would be somewhere between a third to half of the OO parades in Belfast(that would be about 30 to 50 parades are contentious (this includes some of the most important parades e.g. Twelfth).

    Other towns were that parades are contentious – Newry, Keady, Portadown, Lurgan, Randalstown, Ballymena, Castlewellan, Downpatrick, Londonderry, Omagh, Lisnaskea, Kilrea, Dunloy, Rasharkin, Bellaghy, Castelderg, Stoneyford, Crumlin, Carnlough, Ballycastle, Limavady, Magherafelt, Maghera – so this is not a limited problem but an issue with a broad geographical spread.

    “It seems the Orange and their followers only recognise parades when they are forced through areas where the residents are hemmed in behind massive security cordones, would this be true fair_deal, you should know?”

    As we hold all the other parades with no objections that makes this claim utterly false.
    As we walked the same route before objections began that makes this claim utterly false (In the case of the Drumcree church parade it walked that route about 150 years before the Garvaghy area was even built and even then it began as a mixed area so it was about 180 years before it became contentious. It was important enough to the OO to be held for 180 years before any contention.)

  • dom

    Why did the orange order carry paramilitary flags and uvf banners commemorating former uvf commanders at the Whiterock parade ?

  • pacart

    Fair Deal – you mentioned Limavady as an area of contention. The town has a quaint Orange “tradition” called “the mad band” which stikes up at 12.00 midnight on 11/12 July. The band consists of a few flutes and drums plus a 100+ mob of drunken band followers who parade around the town screaming abuse, often attacking stray catholics and catholic businesses. The “band” are escorted by the police who look impassively on.
    Also, the contention in Limavady is about the sheer number of parades, virtually every Saturday evening during the summer, and the drunken behaviour of the bandsmen and their followers. The complaints are not confined to Nationalists, most people in the town are fed up with it. From what I have seen of Orange parades this summer ASBOs would be a more fitting response than anything the Parades Commission could come up with.
    Denny Boy – good analogy.
    One last thing, I’m old enough to remember the early Civil Rights marches, the most vocal voices asking for them to be banned,on public order grounds, were Ian Paisley and the OO. The “right to march” was not high on their agenda then.

  • fair_deal

    Pacart

    Band parades are not organised by the OO neither are the bonfires.

    “the most vocal voices asking for them to be banned,on public order grounds, were Ian Paisley and the OO.”

    They were wrong.

  • VICTOR1

    1. The 1% figure has been about for a long time when resident hate groups began and needs updated.

    Your bigotry shines through here fair_deal residents hate groups, how unjust and bigoted of you to label communities in such a way just because they object to Orange parades marching past their homes, shame on you! As for the figures (1) you may well be right about the preciseness though it still doesn’t detract from the facts, the vast majority of parades take place without problems, no erosion of civil, religious, or any other liberties!

    2. Objections to, restrictions on and those that have “trouble” are not necessarily the same thing

  • VICTOR1

    1. The 1% figure has been about for a long time when resident hate groups began and needs updated.

    Your bigotry shines through here fair_deal residents hate groups, how unjust and bigoted of you to label communities in such a way just because they object to Orange parades marching past their homes, shame on you! As for the figures (1) you may well be right about the preciseness though it still doesn’t detract from the facts, the vast majority of parades take place without problems, no erosion of civil, religious, or any other liberties!

    2. Objections to, restrictions on and those that have “trouble” are not necessarily the same thing

  • VICTOR1

    Continued LOL:

    2. Objections to, restrictions on and those that have “trouble” are not necessarily the same thing

    They are in this case, that’s why the Orange Order are referring to them, they see Objections, restrictions and trouble as one in the same, an imaginary erosion of their rights!

    3. Also the OO does not invest heavily in its website

    And invests even less to society!

    As they made clear at the conference he got the words condone and condemn mixed up. So he condemned violence from wherever it came from – do you have a problem with that?

    No problem with condemn, pity he hadn’t used the word even though he had 2 days to prepare, he was also informed by his contemporaries the wrong word was used, he insisted on using CONDONE , but given the organization he represents, I’ll grant you that, one cannot be held responsible for stupidity.

    The OO does not hold any parade past Ardoyne were they then board a bus.

    The Apprentice boys do, and as such would come under the umbrella of erosion of Protestant rights and culture, that is what I’m pointing out, by the way I see you preferred not to answer my other point on the same vein “Why do the Orange Order march to their buses when there is a Catholic Chapel on the route, when they could board buses before the Chapel? St Mathews by the way! Indefensible maybe!

    In Belfast if the OO stopped all contentious parades as you suggest citizens of Belfast would not be allowed to go into their own city centre

    While the Orange Order are in the city centre, be it Belfast Derry or beyond, it is unsafe for Catholic citizens to go there, and this is undeniable mainly though not exclusively due to their followers!

    “It seems the Orange and their followers only recognize parades when they are forced through areas where the residents are hemmed in behind massive security cordons, would this be true fair_deal, you should know?”
    As we hold all the other parades with no objections that makes this claim utterly false.

    As we hold all the other parades with no objections, exactly but the limited numbers of parades which have issues are seen as erosion of Protestant rights and culture, you can march to your hearts content, but in areas where there are problems dialogue with those who object would go some way to resolving the issues. The Orange Order bear immense responsibility to their parades and their followers, but as we can see they renege on those responsibility when things go wrong

  • Denny Boy

    fair_deal

    “… I’m old enough to remember the early Civil Rights marches, the most vocal voices asking for them to be banned,on public order grounds, were Ian Paisley and the OO.”

    “They were wrong.”

    But will they admit that? Will Paisley accept responsibility for 35 years of slaughter in Ulster? Nevair.

    A big man admits to his mistakes and moves on. A little bigot like Paisley will never admit he was wrong, and will remain stuck in his bitter past until his dying day.

    Such a shame that he can still rouse the rabble, as we have seen.

  • Disgruntled

    The same dialogue would also go along way in Kilkeel every 15th Of August when the AOH parade through the mainly protestant town to their buses by the church and a cenotaph erected in memory of a young man called Alan Johnston murdered one morning on jis way to work in a joinery workshop by cowardly republican b*****ds

  • vinny

    Do the AOH carry a banner glorifying an ira terrorist murderer in Kilkeel in the same way the orange order did at last weekends parade when they carried a banner of uvf man Brian Robinson

  • Comrade Stalin

    The AOH’s march is obscene, considering the organization in question is American.

  • VICTOR1

    Very eloquently put disgruntled nice stars to finish by the way!

    THE Parades Commission has praised local Nationalist bands for taking Protestant worshippers into consideration in Kilkeel. Five bands applied for permission to parade through Kilkeel on Sunday, August 15. The Commission were very pleased by the fact that the bands agreed to change the time of the parade so it would not coincide with Sunday morning Church services.

    Respect for the other tradidtion, contrast that with Orange/Apprenticeboys parades, particularly outside St Matthews chapel, were they strike up the Sash and the Billy boys, do you see a difference disgruntled? I suppose not!
    It takes 2-3 members of the PSNI to police an A.O.H. parade, whereas it takes 3-4 hundred members of the PSNI to police an Orange Order parade.The difference was due to the A.O.H. parading in areas where they were wanted, whereas the Orange Order needed the police to force them through areas against the desire of the people that lived in the areas.

  • Enniskillen DUP

    Clady Cowboy,

    “Are you attempting to halt the advance of a culture?”

    I would hardly define a parade to commmerate republican murderers in the maze an “advance of a culture”.

    “What sort of absolutist are you?”

    That’s rich coming from a supporter of Sinn Fein, a party who’s idea of equality is to ethincally cleanse the british race! lol

    “when you don the sash of every sunday of every f****ng week going.”

    Language please! I understand you may have problems articulating your views but please keep that sort of language to your Sinn fein Cumann meetings.

    “if you think that Republicans can’t march for the glorification of Bobby Sands a mere uncontrived 24yrs after his death.”

    I would have no problem celebrating the death of Bobby Sands! Could you imagine if he was still around today? lol

    “We’ll see how much you value freedom of expression(for all) when they’re Orange marches in Springfield with simultaneous Republican marches past Tigers Bay.”

    It’s good to see you’re following the “Ireland of Equals” policy.

    “GET THE FUCK OVER THIS SHIT”

    Shameful!

  • dawgface911

    the americans banned orange marches 150 years ago. unfortunately not before chaos, riot, violence and murder were played out.

  • oolsterman

    Angel
    At the risk of spoiling the voice of my character Oolsterman. please let me share this one explanation.
    I love America and Americans. I was injecting a heavy does of sarcasm, in the voice of Oolsterman. I did not mean to offend you, but rather to show the bigotry and idiocy of “Oolsterman” the super Ulsterman.
    Having said that,
    Get ye all away outa that yeese.

  • dawgface911

    angel

    can you see now what we are up against here. people who are dangerously angry, but unclear what they are angry about. the orange people could never accept a ‘ parade ‘!! down a peaceful route. that would be an erosion of their culture !
    No parade! it must be a march and it must pass people who confront us!!
    this is because the orange identity is made from fear, suspicion, bigotry , and self-rightous ignorance. they are dishonest, and have no bravery.

  • fair_deal

    Denny Boy

    I can only account for what I say and believe not Ian Paisley.

    VICTOR

    “no erosion of civil, religious, or any other liberties! “

    1. Every time a right is denied it is an erosion of the liberty/right. If you are denied the right to vote the right has been eroded.
    2. Routes that were previously used are being denied. If you get less than before it is an erosion. If there is a rock in the river and it gets smaller it is generally described as eroded.
    3. The number of routes with objections continues to grow hence an erosion.

    “While the Orange Order are in the city centre, be it Belfast Derry or beyond, it is unsafe for Catholic citizens to go there”

    1. Please offer some evidence for the claim that Orange parades into Belfast city centre lead to outbreaks of sectarian violence there.
    2. Arrangements have been made in Londonderry to ensure free access to the City centre during parades so that claim is false.

    ““Why do the Orange Order march to their buses when there is a Catholic Chapel on the route, when they could board buses before the Chapel? “

    1. The OO don’t march past St Matthew’s to get on buses either.

    “The Apprentice boys do”

    1. Thank you for accepting your claim about the OO was false.
    2. Apprentice Boys Clubs in belfast walk to a central point then parade through the city centre then travel to Londonderry. This is the same pattern in towns across Northern Ireland so it was not created to annoy the people of Ardoyne or Short Strand – you mark the event locally then you go to the main joint event, it is how loyal orders combine local and collective identity. My ABOD club does exactly the same in Coleraine with the other two local clubs and neither does our route pass a chapel.
    3. These routes are ARTERIAL routes. The sectarian patchwork of Belfast means that it is impossible to get to the city centre from North west or east belfast without passing a nationalist community. There are quite literally no routes that can be followed that wouldn’t past them so there isn’t a secret loyal order committee trying to come up with the most sectarian routes. If that was the aim then much more controversial routes could be submitted but they don’t they simply ask for the same routes they always have.

    “It takes 2-3 members of the PSNI to police an A.O.H. parade, whereas it takes 3-4 hundred members of the PSNI to police an Orange Order parade”

    1. In Kilkeel the police presence is substantially larger that 2-3 members.
    2. The last AOH parade in Londonderry had substantially more than 2-3 police members protecting it.
    2. Generally Protestant communities don’t attack AOH parades e.g Desertmartin and thus don’t need police protection. Pity the toleration wasn’t returned in kind.

    “The Commission were very pleased by the fact that the bands agreed to change the time of the parade “

    1. Lodges, Clubs and Perceptories have moved the time of their parades forward on the Crumlin Road because nationalist residents complained they were blocked from the shops so they moved the parade time forward to before shop opening times. This respect for the other tradition’s concerns made no difference Ardoyne still said NO nor did the PC praise this move.
    2. In the dialogue about the Whiterock parade the nationalists raised 5 objections four of which were addressed in full (they got 80% of what they wanted). This respect made no difference and they refused to move on their fifth demand of a route change. These cases of respect offered by the OO, ABOD and RBI and their rejection make nationalists claims its about respect ring very hollow.
    3. Thank you for raising Kilkeel. The AOH parade goes through an almost 100% Protestant residential area. There are local objections to the parade. It is not welcome in Kilkeel and if we apply YOUR belief that parades should only go were they are welcome there should be no AOH Kilkeel parade. The parades commission allows its parade yet refuses the same for OO parades – the best example of PC double standards there are and a fine example of yours too.
    4. Maybe someone should have a word with the Kilrea republican flute band who after a republican parade then toured Ballycastle and specifically stopped outside each Protestant church in the town centre to disrupt their services.

    “how unjust and bigoted of you to label communities”

    1. LMAO and what exactly have you been doing in your posts!?!
    2. I did not label communities I labelled the groups that agitate against parades as hate groups. I have walked past protests organised by these groups. The parades had no music playing and the band had no parmilitary connections all they were being asked to do was look at me. People who did not know me or what my opinions were spat at me, verbally abused me, called me a hun/orange b and had bottles bricks and golfballs thrown at me (while protest marshals watched). It seems like hate to me.

  • hurdy gurdy man

    Can anyone direct me to a site – or some other source – giving the itinerary of each of the contentious parade routes, or better than this, maps showing the proposed routes of the OO on each of the disputed parades?

  • rod

    “1. The OO don’t march past St Matthew’s to get on buses either.”

    They do however disembark from buses to march past the above mentioned church on their return journeys from several demonstrations during the marching season.

    After exiting the M3 slip road, buses containing orange order lodges and accompanying bands leave their mode of transport and gather themselves before marching past the Short Strand and St Matthew’s Church

    Perhaps the building of the M3 route gave the order another reason for creating a new traditional route !!

    Which is a little strange considering that the M3 has an exit at Dee Street, and can take the loyal members home from their demonstration in super quick time.

  • cladycowboy

    Enniskillen DUP

    ‘I would hardly define a parade to commmerate republican murderers in the maze an “advance of a culture”.’

    OO supporters eh, minds so tuned into 1690 that they haven’t yet experienced the beauty of irony. Do you think OO marchers discuss the degeneracy of ‘republican culture’ whilst they march under banners of loyalist killers? Give me a break hypocrite

    ‘That’s rich coming from a supporter of Sinn Fein, a party who’s idea of equality is to ethincally cleanse the british race! lol’

    Another mind-reader about the place. My opposition to OO parades in contentious areas is not down to my perceived support of SF but as i want to see Irish people living more peacefully, i’d oppose AOH marches in Kilkeel also. SF, weren’t they founded by a member of the ‘british race'(whatever that is, answers on a postcard)?

    ‘Language please! I understand you may have problems articulating your views but please keep that sort of language to your Sinn fein Cumann meetings’

    You see how one prejudicial outburst has made the rest of your post meaningless? I live in London and have never been to a SF cumann meeting. My language may in some part have been affected by the consumption of a fair few Paulaner beers but i can articulate my views. For instance, i object strongly to OO/AOH parades in areas where they are not welcomed by the local populace as i believe that it inevitably leads to violence(witness recent rioting),rises sectarian tensions and further divides our people, all of which i condemn. If only Mr Baillie could articulate this condemnation of violence without immense pressure being placed upon his good christian soul to do so.

    ‘I would have no problem celebrating the death of Bobby Sands! Could you imagine if he was still around today? lol’

    Many OO marchers do celebrate his death vocally(something about a chicken supper) as they pass their hemmed in catholic neighbours whilst on parade, very christian and very in tune with what OO is meant to celebrate, the downfall of absolutist monarchy and suchlike, you know the stuff thats really relevant to 21st century society.

    ‘It’s good to see you’re following the “Ireland of Equals” policy.’

    Not sure if you’re being sarcastic here. Are you suggesting that you’d welcome AOH or republican,1798 type, parades past Tigers bay and the Shankill? If you’re not then i’d suggest taking your hypocritical behind back to your 17thC dwelling chums and get some good PR to square this circle. If you’d welcome them, then we are in for another few decades of division, maybe thats what you want?

    ‘Shameful!’

    No, shameful is calling for people onto the streets and inciting them with religious hatred and not condemning the terrible violence that INEVITABLY erupted after this. Shameful is the leader of the Belfast OO, shameful is the organisation when it does not consider the wishes of its neighbours. This dog has had its day. THE GLORIOUS REVOLUTION HAPPENED 317 YRS AGO, MOVE THE FUCK ON!

  • peace

    cladycowboy well said cowboy lol i can’t wait to read that dupclowns reply 😉

  • Antrim Springfarm

    Nice to see Mr Adams spreading his lies over in the states. It’s a pity Ian Paisley has nothing to do with the OO…oops.

  • darthrumsfeld

    “Fair Deal – you mentioned Limavady as an area of contention. The town has a quaint Orange “tradition” called “the mad band” which stikes up at 12.00 midnight on 11/12 July. The band consists of a few flutes and drums plus a 100+ mob of drunken band followers who parade around the town screaming abuse, often attacking stray catholics and catholic businesses. The “band” are escorted by the police who look impassively on.”

    You obviously haven’t lived in Limavady for a long time if you believe that one pacart. The band parade to which you refer was stopped by the police in the late 1980s, after complaints from protestants and Catholic. It was nothing to do with the Orange Order, either. But I’m sure you know that.
    At the request of the police the Orange order then organised a parade on the eleventh night which commences at the unearthly hour of 8 pm., and which parades to their private field at the edge of the town, well away from the bulk of residential property, where a religious service is held and a “dry” bonfire event held.

    “Also, the contention in Limavady is about the sheer number of parades, virtually every Saturday evening during the summer, and the drunken behaviour of the bandsmen and their followers. The complaints are not confined to Nationalists, most people in the town are fed up with it.”

    There are four evening parades held in the months of June to August, one of which is held on a Saturday, and two on Fridays. The last was held on a Wednesday, and like the other three it is not organised by the Orange Order , but by the bands themselves to raise funds. The town has a bypass which has freed up most of the traffic, and the parades almost all take the same route , which has very few residences on it as an overall proportion of the route. I’m sure some people are annoyed by the parades, but your parrotting of the dishonest claims of the local Shinner councillors suggest you have a less than objective approach to the issue. care to comment on the violence from republicans bussed in from Kilrea, Rasharkin and Dungiven for the last parade?

  • darthrumsfeld

    “residents hate groups”

    Well let’s just explore that one a bit. When do they meet? Where do they meet? What is their function? Do they have a constitution, an annual general meeting, and election of officers, advertisewd public meetings in their local libraries? Do they hold meetings to arrange for charity fundraisers, or to educate local children, or to clean up their neighbourhood? How do I go about joining, and what is the membership fee?

    Well the answer to the above is that none of these basic requirements of a bona fide community voluntary group apply. There is no agenda of good causes for the Concerened residents, even though some community workers involved with them may well piggy bank off the voluntary sector. The AGM of the Garvaghy Road residents’ Coalition must not have made it into the local paper- did Brendan McKenna win a hotly contested vote for chairman again?- this is getting like the Moderatorship of the free Ps! And was membewrship up or down this year? Who’s making the catering arrangements for the kiddies’ excursion to …er…Dunloy.? Don’t kid ourselves that there’ll be a big turnout at the Christmas Fete either- resident’s groups seem to exist only for eight weeks from the last week in June.

    If they have any reason for existence, other than to protest against parades, someone come on here and show us. If that’s there only reason , they are as fair-deal describes them.

  • pacart

    Darth, I’ll have to take my oil on this one. I moved from Limavady a good few years ago, glad to hear some things have changed.

  • Brian Boru

    Fair_deal, since you support OO marches, whose raison-d’etre is to celebrate Protestant victories over Catholics, then could you please answer this question: Would you accept a Nationalist parade through your area, celebrating Catholic victories over Protestants?