Suicide bombs and ballot boxes…

THE Hamas militant at the top of Israel’s ‘Most Wanted’ list has released a video in which he issues a statement that bears a striking similarity to another famous soundbite from Danny Morrison in 1981.

The BBC reports that Mohammed Deif warned Palestinian officials against ending what he calls the armed struggle, but urges them to resolve internal differences through dialogue.

And to the Palestinian Authority he suggests: “We should keep the arms of resistance raised side by side with the political work and we warn against harming this weapon that liberated Gaza.

“Let it continue to be active and operational to liberate the rest of our homeland”.

And, in seeking to justify his own armed struggle, he said: “Without this jihad and this steadfastness, we did not achieve the liberation of the Gaza Strip.”

It all sounds too familiar…

  • peteb

    You almost sound surprised, Gonzo.

  • Gonzo

    Nothing surprises me any more…

  • fair_deal2005@yahoo.co.uk

    Great psychopaths think alke, murderers seldom differ

  • bertie

    Exactly FD and adds to the arguement that when you appease one group of terrorists you encourage the general phenomena.

  • mickhall

    One of the most disgraceful aspects of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza is the way it has been covered in the Media. The fact that Israel had illegally occupied the west bank and gaza for almost four decades and have been condemned for doing so by the UN has hardly been touched upon. It is as if when the nazis occupied france in 1940, they should some how be praised for leaving in 1945. If you feel my comparison is to harsh, well so has the occupation of Gaza been for Palestinians.

    For example all those nice settler homes we saw on our TV were built on land stolen from Palestinians. Stolen is the only word one can use as they were confiscated from there rightful owners by force of IDF arms. Some of the families who owned the land had done so for generations yet it was confiscated to build settlements without a penny paid or a back-ward glance.

    Most westerners think of the very word settler as noble, honest people building a better life out of baron land. When in fact people have lived on it productively for generations, Palestinians in Gaza im sure understood how the native americans must have felt.

    By the way, those who regard HAMAS as terrorists had better get used to them, for they will be the government in Palestine within the next 20 years and throughout much of the region,[sister party’s] whether we like it or not. The USAs middle east policy has seen to that.

  • felix quigley

    Untruth is a euphemism for that which comes out of the mouth of a liar. In any case that is what we have in Mick Hall’s contribution. I was wondering why McIntyre of Blanket notoriety was not publishing recently his usual quota of anti-Israel (anti-Jewish) diatribes. Is Hall making up for it on Slugger? In any case in the absence of anybody prepared to take on the lies of Hall then somewhat against my inclination I feel I am forced to challenge some of his statements above.

    Gonzo. I commended you a week ago for raising an International issue on SluggerOtoole. I know Slugger is a Northern Ireland site but people here are interested, especially as you said last time, in this issue. Anyway the comparision between Danny Morrison’s party and Hamas is apt, as is shown by friend Hall’s last paragraph, I mean where does one start and the other finish. Anyway well done!

    Lie No 1…
    Hall ignores Slugger’s lead on the issue which is the comparision between Danny Morrison and Hamas, ie the ballot box in one hand and the terrorist rifle in the other, and probably in the case of the Provisionals in catholic areas holding some hurley sticks (fearsome weapons) behind their backs to keep the catholic youth in order.

    So using the oldest trick in the book Hall ignores the points made in the lead off and then goes into attack against his favourite bogeyman in all the world…Israel

    Predictably enough, coming from the Blanket (with a pedigree out of Counterpunch) Hall gets his lying machine into full rev. The lies are so thick and fast I will have to condense some of them into compound lies.

    Lie No 2
    Hall writes the following:
    “One of the most disgraceful aspects of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza is the way it has been covered in the Media.”
    Almost every newspaper I have seen has been in support of Sharon’s Stasi and against the settlers. In other words in support of Rice and Bush and Blair and portraying the settlers(a loaded word also, these “settlers” have “settled” there for some 4000 years) as extremists and religious fanatics. Also predicting for months and months on end violence which they said would be widespread! Which did not materialise! Many lies propagated by the psyops dept of Mr Sharon’s Stasi department.

    Lie No 3.
    Hall writes with a straight face
    “that Israel had illegally occupied the west bank and gaza for almost four decades”
    I think I will have to use the compound method to some of Halls lies (untruths) here due to space considerations. Bloggers (some!) on Slugger have a short attention span. Don’t worry – there are plenty of Halls’ lies to be going on with.

    So he develops this by saying:
    “illegally occupied the west bank and gaza for almost four decades and have been condemned for doing so by the UN has hardly been touched upon.”

    Well, most historians I have read believe that the 67 War was a defensive war on Israel’s part. I mean Egypt and Nasser closing Israel’s access to the sea, kicking the UN out of Sinai, moving its Egyptian army into Sinai and massing its troops along the border of Israel, meanwhile threatening to wipe Israel off the map, not one but several casi belli there I would suggest!

    The Arabs were the aggressor so the occupation according to international law was not illegal. Remember the law of war – as in playing marbles – the loser pays up! Normal human ethics says there should be a price to pay for being a tyrant and attacking a small peaceful neighbour.

    Lie no 4 (or big spoof no 1)
    Hall tries to be funny here but puts his large foot in it.
    He writes:
    “It is as if when the nazis occupied france in 1940, they should some how be praised for leaving in 1945. If you feel my comparison is to (sic) harsh, well so has the occupation of Gaza been for Palestinians.”

    The only problem which Hall probably overlooked here is that when the Nazis were occupying France the Arabs were helping the Nazis to occupy France. Correction – not only France but most of Europe as well. Hall’s old Palestinian Arab buddy, Hajj Amin el Husseini, was RIGHT AT THAT VERY TIME organising the murder of Jews, Serbs and Roma in the Balkans and he was appointed by Hitler and Himmler to be the Nazis main organiser in burning those Jews whenever things hotted up in Palestine. Lucky the Nazi army was beaten in Egypt. So bad goof there by Hall! Think before you use that example the next time!

    So, Mr Hall, comparing the Jews of Israel to the Nazis, something your friend Mr McIntyre of the Blanket, and your friend Mr Kelly (yeah the Queens professor) are wont to do, IS NO LONGER A WISE TACTIC. Next time you are gurgling into your Guinness point that out to them.

    Lie no 5.
    Hall writes this whopper:
    “For example all those nice settler homes we saw on our TV were built on land stolen from Palestinians. Stolen is the only word one can use as they were confiscated from there (sic) rightful owners by force of IDF arms. Some of the families who owned the land had done so for generations yet it was confiscated to build settlements without a penny paid or a back-ward glance.”

    Ah, this really does grate on you, doesn’t it! Those nice settler (Jewish) homes and those poor poor Palestinians. Never mind Mr Arafat’s wife in Paris salting away MILLIONS. That is not a lie and is acknowledged even by some jealous PLO partners. Never mind, in general, the rich bourgeois class among the Arabs. And the Arabs are not exactly poor given all that massive area and all that oil gushing away.

    Ah but those nice settler homes, that grates like hell with you doesn’t it Hall. You really do not like Jews to have nice homes, much better when they live destitute in the Russian ghetto. Or maybe you just don’t like Jews to have a Homeland. The Irish Lefties can feel sorry for Jews when they are being herded onto the cattle trucks, but when the Jews have a Homeland and are prepared to defend it, ah the Lefties tune soon changes!

    But actually, I THOUGHT that those homes, for example were built on sand dunes, junk land it has been called. Repeat, no Arabs lived there. Ever!

    Actually I do believe that the Jews of Israel have a RECORD of doing just that, turning junk land (eg swamps) into productive enterprise. The Arabs, I don’t think so. Corruption in ruling circles perhaps.

    Lie no 6(big big compound lie this)
    The bold Hall writes:
    “Most westerners think of the very word settler as noble, honest people building a better life out of baron land. When in fact people have lived on it productively for generations, Palestinians in Gaza im (sic) sure understood how the native americans must have felt.”

    Junk land, Hall, that means nobody was living on it, so there was nobody robbed of any land.

    Oh, by the way, in case you didn’t know Gaza was part of the Jewish Homeland allotted to the Jews in 1917, and put into International Law in 1922 through the League of Nations Mandate to Britain.

    Which Mandate by the way Britain in its true anti-semitic way of things, seriously and shamefully betrayed.

    Ever know of an Irish republican attack Britain over that? Eh! Didn’t hear you there! And why might that be? Could it be that Irish republicans, like the afore-mentioned Morrison, are much more hostile to Israel than they are to Britain.

    So, big lie there, that Arabs were living on it productively for generations. You made a study of this Mr Hall? Let’s have you then? Not your empty opinion! Place your sources on the table!

    By the way, talking of LAND, the Arabs are not exactly short are they. What is it, 22 Arab states, covering an area TWICE THE SIZE OF THE UNITED STATES?

    Has anybody at Slugger recently tried to find Israel on a map of the world? Roughly the size of Wales, a magnifying glass is recommended.

    I have decided to not bother with Hall’s comparision of the “Palestinians” with the American Indians!

    The comparative choice is well…interesting. Not Darfur, eh, where Sudanese Arab fascists have murdered at least a million African animists.

    Not the Kurds, where Arab Saddam gassed and murdered thousands. Not many campaigns on the Blanket there for a state, eh, Mick?

    What about the Copts or Berbers? Don’t hear Mick talking much about a state for them either.

    Or come to think of it and let’s get down here where it really hurts!!! Not much detail on the rights of the Northern Irish protestant to have their smallish state either, and most important, to live there unmolested and in fear of their lives!

    But it is the Palestinians which obsesses the Irish “Left”. Could it possibly be something to do with Jews? Perhaps a little double standard at play here?

    More than a “little” double standard I would say! Believe me I had great pleasure in waving goodbye to this Irish “Left” when I began to realise what lay behind their support for the murderous Jew-hating PLO

    Lie no 7…to finish off…actually more of a gloat and a threat on Hall’s part. In my eyes it is a threat and a damned serious one when our friend Hall writes in conclusion (and what a conclusion) the following morbid and grisly words:

    “By the way, those who regard HAMAS as terrorists had better get used to them, for they will be the government in Palestine within the next 20 years and throughout much of the region,[sister party’s (sic)] whether we like it or not. The USAs middle east policy has seen to that.”

    20 months, I would say, Mick. And hardly the US Mick, here you are all mixed up. Do try to keep up with things. Bush and Rice are PUSHING FOR THE TERROR Palestinian state to be established! And the Palestinian Arabs and Hamas were murdering Jews from at least 1920 which is before Iraq even existed much less daddam Hussein.

    But you do do agree with the sentiment, don’t you, because the stated policy of Hamas and of the PLO is of course (and please forgive this word but it is the only one really apt): Bugger Gaza and bugger the West Bank as well. It is Israel we are after and we will not be finished until it (Israel and the Jews)is finished.

    You see, it is all about Jew-hatred Mick. It was Jew hatred in 1948 when the Palestinian Arabs refused their state offer and instead six Arab armies attacked. It was that when at the same time over a million Jewish refugees were driven from Arab countries. It was that in 1956 when the Arabs attacked again. It was that in 67, for sure, if Nassers’ speeches have any logical meaning at all. It was certainly that in 1973 when the Arabs again attacked with no pretext of a 67 air-strike to fall back on. And it was that when Arafat was given 95 per cent of the West Bank, Gaza and part of Jerusalem with all Jews removed by Barak and Arafat replied with his deadly Intifada of suicide bombers.

    And that my friends, IS the essence of Palestinianism and of the Palestinian state which Bush and Blair are so striving towards. The “Palestinianism” of Jew hatred which the Irish Lefties and “republican” pseuds are so besotted with. We will see.

    Because, dear friends, when you campaign for a Palestinian state for the “Palestinians” you have to accept that it will be a fascist-type and Jew-hating kind of a state. Mick has kindly done so in his last paragraph above (you know, when he states that a Hamas type leadership will lead it). That is something you just have to put into the equation. But will you?

  • bootman

    Felix Quigley

    I stopped reading that after 4 lines when you say “anti-israel (anti-jewish)”

  • circles

    I was three lines into the above rant when it suddenly occurred to me that it must be Felix :o)
    Again a thousand points that could be used to pick the arguments in this post apart (of course it would be easier if they were written in a coherent amnner and not a rambling discourse). The twisted logic however of point 7 however speaks for itself. I don’t see how the statement that Hamas will be the governing party can be interpreted as a threat – unless of course mick hall has influence well beyond our little virtual circle here. I think its a realistic interpretation of the increasing extremism in the middle east – a result of an uncompromisingly hard political and military approach promoted by the US administration.

  • Betty Boo

    Respect, Circles, you actually made to point 7.
    I had the same suspicion and never got that far.

  • TAFKABO

    If you aren’t going to read the posts, then why bother coming here in the first place?

  • circles

    TAFKABO:
    Posts are fine – repetitive, rambling, surreal rants though just aren’t my cup of tea. I read it but can understand why others didn’t, so please come down of the righteous high horse.

  • TAFKABO

    “The righteous high horse”?

    I’ll have a pint of whatever circles has been drinking.

  • circles

    Its all finished – sorry *hic*

    I read that myself and thought “what the f__!” I think it was supposed to be a mix of self-righteous and high horse – or maybe just a dose of the Quigleys (I knew I shouldn’t have read the whole thing!!!)

  • Fraggle

    hehe, I read the first few paragraphs and thought, “it’s that foam-flecked-mouth-lunatic felix again!”.

    where does he get it from?

  • felix quigley

    Ah, the contributors to SluggerOtoole. Such great hopes by Mick Fealty and his other loyal lieutenants to create an open and democratic website. But alas on the issue of Israel and the Arab Palestinians these hopes run into the reality of the Leftist anti-semitic hatred of Israel.

    Rather than answer one by one I would point out that the substantial points which were made by me above about Hall’s diatribe against Israel have been ignored. Ignoring those points then they are free to go on the attack against my position. The old debating tactic, as old as it is rotten!

    It is a very strange situation whereby I cut to pieces the statement above by Hall and according to the posters of Slugger all of my points are consigned to the garbage can without them being read.

    Circles, you say you did read it but you then assert:
    “I was three lines into the above rant when it suddenly occurred to me that it must be Felix :o)
    Again a thousand points that could be used to pick the arguments in this post apart…

    But you do not make one point. What sort of debate is that? Why not refure the points so that some people reading this and interested in the subject can see 2 points of view. I mean you ARE a regular poster on Mick’s site.

    The one thing you do say is on my point 7. And you disagree that it was a threat on Hall’s part. I interpretated it as a threat and I will repeat what Hall said about Hamas:

    “By the way, those who regard HAMAS as terrorists had better get used to them, for they will be the government in Palestine within the next 20 years and throughout much of the region,[sister party’s (sic)] whether we like it or not. The USAs middle east policy has seen to that.”
    Hall tells us we had better get used to Hamas because they are going to take over the leadership of the Palestinian Movement. Hall is correct here. But I interpretated this as a threat because I feel Hall is on the side of Hamas and he nowhere tells us that he is not. The whole tenor of his post is full of hatred for Israel.
    But, Circles threat or not, that is not the essence of the matter. The essence is that Hamas is a deadly anti-semitic movement and typifies this Palestinian movement. THAT is the main point. And that is the point made in the lead-off at the top, not exactly saying that but nevertheless opening up the discussion here on Slugger as to what kind of movement is Hamas.
    Bootman
    You write “I stopped reading that after 4 lines when you say “anti-israel (anti-jewish)”
    Why would you stop reading there. There are many, many Jews in the world who believe that the non-stop campaign against Israel, ignoring the Jew-hatred of the Arabs and Arab Palestinianism is the new anti-Semitism. That is what I hold to. I do not just state it I try to prove it. So why not read on and in turn try to disprove what I say.
    Betty Boo writes “Respect, Circles, you actually made to point 7.
    I had the same suspicion and never got that far.”
    And that is all Betty writes on either Hall’s statement or mine. And on such an issue!
    Fraggle weighs in with this: “hehe, I read the first few paragraphs and thought, “it’s that foam-flecked-mouth-lunatic felix again!”.
    where does he get it from?”
    So the points of history, all eminently debatable, are swept aside. It is the oldest trick in the book to attack the person and to ignore what the person has to say. A kind of device to avoid answering.
    So the situation is this. I do not want to go over again the points I made against Hall’s intervention. As far as I understand they stand unanswered. For my own benefit and other readers of SluggerOtoole who I respect I will deal with the above in my own way, by means of a further post, to try to explain how I and others see the issue of the Gaza, and how it has come about that a section of Jewish society led by Sharon, who once was or rather appeared to stand for the very opposite policy has created an area of the Holy Land which is now Judenfrei. And why I see this Bush Blair Eu Sharon Palestinian State to be mainly motivated by pure opportunism and on the part of the Arabs and Muslim countries pure hatred of Jews.

  • Colm

    Give Felix his due

    he is a very determined and comprehensive advocat of his cause. I simply couldn’t type as much as he does.

  • felix quigley

    The lead above dealt with the planned strategy of Hamas which is to wipe Israel off the map. That in itself is enough for me to write about.

    I see the creation of Israel as one of the greatest steps taken by any national liberation movement ever, a movement which is thousands of years old and whose people have been persecuted by anti-semitism as long as jews have existed on this earth.

    The point above which Belfast Gonzo introduced deals with Hamas and it deals with the policy of Hamas which is the end of Israel.

    And it seems to me that all the world is now clamouring for this Palestinian state, and they are never taking into account the stated policy of its leadership. Now that to me is modern anti-semitism. I mean, to sweep that Palestinian Hamas (and PLO) Jew hatred under the carpet is being anti-semitic.

    I cannot help wondering, however, how this future Palestinian Arab state will play out on the world situation now that Bush and Blair as well as the EU and almost every other power in the Universe have tied themselves to its success. By looking over the past few years, especially the role of America in all of this, we can get possibly some idea of where we are going.

    As long as the old terrorist Arafat (Father to his people and great peacemaker) was alive Bush would not meet with him, nor would Sharon. But with his death there began to come new noises out of the US Government, that the new leaders were being approved, and then there was the famous meeting in Washington at the Rose Garden when Bush had his arm around the Abbas shoulders. This is a man I can do business with Bush murmured to the world, to create that Palestinian state if new leaders could be found. And Abbas was the new-found hope of Mr Bush, Mr Blair and Ms Rice.

    What then did Abbas show himself capable of delivering to these new patrons of the Palestinian Arab State.. First of all Abbas was wont to deplore suicide bombings etc, but only insofar as they worked against the diplomacy to dismember Israel. The stated aim of the PLO in its constitution IS to detroy Israel. On the till now hidden 1964 Constition tune in to the American website (www.tenc.net) for their latest article.

    Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa (which is funded by his own party, Fatah) would have none of this Abbas nonsence.

    Abbas had asked them to go lightly over the Gaza withdrawal. Hamas did the very opposite and told Abbas in so many words to get stuffed.

    And as a way of disarming Hamas Abbas has the novel approach of proposing putting Hamas on the PA state forces payroll and issuing them more guns paid for by American and EU tax revenues. Hamas said thanks but we will go on murdering Jews every chance we get.

    So Bush while claiming to fight terror in Iraq is hanging on to some kind of slender hope that Abbas will emerge as the saint triumphant over Hamas. As Hall correctly concluded (the only thing I agreed with) the elections are soon going to show that the “Palestinian People” so beloved of the Irish Leftists LIKE VERY MUCH what they see in Hamas and Islamic Jihad and want more.

    As far as they are concerned the more attacks on Jews the better. They like their schoolbooks to omit showing Israel on the map. As many surveys have shown they DO approve very much of suicide bombings of Jews and place pictures of those murderers (martyrs) on their walls. And oh how they love the new Gaza Judenfrei!

    Or as it was put so succinctly by the Hamas leadership as 1000 Hamas men in military fatigue and shouldering AK437 rifles and RPG rocket propelled grenades while staging just last week FOR THE WORLD PRESS a mock assault on a Jewish settlement, the following chilling (if you are a Jew in Israel) words:

    “ As long as one inch of our land remains under occupation, these weapons will remain in the hands of the hamas soliders. These young men will continue to train others until all Palestinians are turned into fighters so that we could liberate Palestine from the [Jordan ] river to the sea.”
    (Hamas leader Mahmour Zahar)

    Meanwhile the Leftists in Ireland like Hall are stuck with the “Palestinians”as the world becomes more and more aware that the interests of the “Palestinians” is not in another state (ie the 23rd Arab state) but the total destruction of Israel.

    Do not misunderstand me here. The Irish “Leftists” are very happy indeed to be stuck there along with Hamas because their visceral hatred of Israel knows no bounds. That is why I call the present Irish left and Republicans anti-semitic. Prove me wrong if you are able!

    The issue has in fact corrupted the whole European Left.

    Most of these Leftists, and of course in Ireland the empty shell of Irish republicanism, a shell which is always filled with the same Leftist jargon, usually when pressed will take one of two tacks on the issue.

    1.They hide the attacks made by the Arabs on Israel (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2000) which made the “Occupation” the only tactic left to Israel. Watch the supporters of the Palestine State hide from history on this web. (This was one of the points I made in answer to Hall which these disreputable wretches who call themselves posters on SluggerOtoole refused to answer)

    So they claim that the “Palestinians” have a right to oppose Occupation by whatever means. This is the position of for instance the Palestinian Solidarity Group which supports violence against Israel. Really it is why the Left is an ally of the above-mentioned Hamas.

    2.Or they simply deny Israel the right to exist calling in its place for a unitary state. The meaning of this is that every other nation in the world, including the Irish, can have an authentic nationalism and a nation state, but not the Jews.

    Both of these positions (1 and 2) are anti-semitic. I would like to see somebody try to prove otherwise. But if you call these Irish Leftists and republicans anti-semitic they accuse you of unfair tactics. Thus they try to impose a blanket censorship on their opponents on this issue.

    Meanwhile Bush and Blair have tied themselves to the apron strings of these terrorists as well. (The Irish Left and republicans in calling for a Palestinian Arab state find themselves in THAT company). Should that not make a principled person pause but these Leftists have become so besotted with the issue it has become a dogma!

    Caroline Glick who writes for the Jerusalem Post and whose articles I have carried on http://www.isill.blogspot.com as well, summed up the Bush Blair nightmare thus:

    “The US, in committing itself to George W. Bush’s ‘vision’ of the establishment of a Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza and perhaps Jerusalem, has mortgaged its entire Middle East policy to a ‘solution’ of the Palestinian conflict with Israel that has no relation whatsoever to realities on the ground. The reality on the ground is that Palestinian society is unified by a dedication to the destruction of Israel, not the establishment of a Palestinian state. Abbas is a reflection of his society.”

    Ah! That dedication to the destruction of Israel! It keeps creeping up time and time again! As an Irish republican asserted to me rather heatedly recently, “the Jews are a religion and should never have had a state. It would have been better for the world if they had not”.

    The Arabs have shown on many occasions that they are not at all interested in a Palestinian state, but only as a tactic, a STAGE, with which to end the Jewish presence in their midst. Those in Ireland who campaign for a Palestinian state have got to confront that reality. And if they choose to ignore that reality people can call that what they like! I chose to call it anti-semitism and I would like to see THAT challenged.

    The new anti-semitism! The wish to see the end of Israel. The wish to ignore the reality of this proposed Palestinian state! The wish to whitewash this Palestinian movement and not to expose that it is BASED on Jew hatred.

    Hitler never really died. Hajj Amin’s work is still carried on by Irish Leftist bloggers. The issue is the destruction of Israel! Time will indeed tell all what this Palestinian State movement is all about!

  • circles

    Felix:
    People are actually interested in this topic – however its very hard to have a debate whenever one post is already a rambling incoherent essay that brings up so many points that it would require a similarly long post in reply.

    A week or so ago we did debate many of the points you raised again in this thread. It was quite a frustrating debate as in the end you continued to seek refuge behind the cry of anti-semitism whenever anybody questioned the motives or actions of the Israeli government, or refuted one of your calims, rather than trying to reply in a rational way.

    Basing your entire arguments on the belief that the entire world (including the Bush administration!!) is out to do the Jews down is not only a completely lazy way of posting (after all it requires no refelction at all on your own position) – but also reduces your posts to articles of ridicule.

  • felix quigley

    I will try to be brief and thank you for your comments.

    The issue is extremely complex and totally tied up with history, hence my long posts, the longevity of which sometimes make me uneasy on this and other blogs.

    Anti-semitism…it is central in the issue, unfortunately, we did not choose this, history has.

    It is very emotional. The Holocaust has seen to that.

    I submit I am not the problem here. My style may be all wrong, granted, but you people have to start researching this issue, really researching it, and the level of debate has got to be raised from the personal.

    Mick Hall is extremely anti-Israel as indeed are all the writers excepting one that I have read on the Blanket website on which he was a regular.

    He made serious attacks on Israel. Especially on Gaza and the “Occupation” without dealing with the Arab wars against Israel.

    Circles, please be fair here, those attacks of Hall sat here for a long time, perhaps more than a day, before I intervened. Others surely had the chance to challenge Hall. TYhat would suggest that your contributors agreed basically with hall´s anti-Israel position. So that is the real issue here, not my style etc.

    Anyhow I thank SluggerOtoole for raising the issue in a fair way and giving me the opportunity to contribute. The discussion on this issue HAS to take place. But I am not sure that I am the right man to be involved on sites like this. In any case I am just one small rather insignificant number in the whole chain of events.

    Once again it cannot be discussed at allif the issue of anti-semitism is shunned. THAT is the history of the Jewish nation. Just argue the issues and show where people like me are wrong. You know, without insults, such as I got to line 4 etc. How childish is that! Unbelievable really! But we can all get over insults and live to fight another day. But for the moment I have said enough on this post.

  • Biffo

    Felix Quigley

    “but you people have to start researching this issue, really researching it..”

    OK, What’s your view on the plight of the thousands of Palestinians who fled in 1948 to avoid being massacred by the Zionist terror groups, such as happened at Deir Yasin?

    It’s a historical issue with important consequences and despite what you say, there was a Palestinian population who had as much right as any of us to live and enjoy their lives in the land to which they belong.

    A lot of those people are still alive and living as refugees today with no prospect of returning to their home areas.

    Israeli policy currently discriminates on religious grounds and these people will never be allowed to return to the place they originate because they are not Jewish.

    Does this qualify as anti-semitic? (the Palestinians being a semitic people)

    Discuss.

  • felix quigley

    Biffo
    “OK, What’s your view on the plight of the thousands of Palestinians who fled in 1948 to avoid being massacred by the Zionist terror groups, such as happened at Deir Yasin? “

    Answer
    You feed into the lie of Deir Yassin and it is a lie. It is well researched. Try Google.

    The Palestinians who “fled”.

    Again through lack of research you feed into a lie.

    “Zionist terror groups”…same kind of lie you are falling for.

    Basically on the refugees

    1. The Arabs attacked Israel the day after the state was proclaimed in 1948 with 6 armies.

    2. As part of this attack they insisted on Arabs leaving while “mopping up” of Jews would take place

    3. It was a war and people do move during a war, and see 1 above

    “there was a Palestinian population who had as much right as any of us to live and enjoy their lives in the land to which they belong.”

    No they did not. Not according to International Law via the League of Nations whose provisions WERE WRITTEN INTO THE UNITED NATIONS. Read the 1922 League of Nations Mandate, and you will see “non-jews” were to have civil rights only, NOT POLITICAL RIGHTS in the area of Palestine.

    Lets look at your other 3 paragraphs

    “A lot of those people are still alive and living as refugees today with no prospect of returning to their home areas. (I have answered. See above for reasons for fleeing)

    Israeli policy currently discriminates on religious grounds and these people will never be allowed to return to the place they originate because they are not Jewish.

    Does this qualify as anti-semitic? (the Palestinians being a semitic people) (Grow up Biffo. This is not an exercise in semantics)
    Discuss.

    “1. the refugee issue is answered above 2. you omit that there were at the same time over 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries kicked out and they found new lives elsewhere

    Allowed to return

    Why should they be allowed to return given the above detail about Jewish refugees. No return for them and no real fuss made over them either.

    Israel discriminates on religious grounds you say.

    No concrete examples. In fact Israeli Arabs have the vote and vote into the Knesset Israeli Arab MPs, the Arab language is on all official forms etc.

    I myself disagree with this and believe that the original sense of the 1922 Mandate should be applied.

    It is a Jewish state.

    Ask why the state was set up biffo.

    The state of Israel was set up as a refuge agaiinst the world´s anti-semitism, ending in the Holocaust just 3 or 4 years previous. Deal with that.

    I believe, civil rights for Arabs yes. but no political rights. They do not serve in the IDF and they should not be allowed to vote.

    Also treason laws inside Israel should be tight and for treason there should be immediate deportation

    Israel must remain a JEWISH state.

    You must deal with the specifics on this one. The state of Israel is not an abstract exercise in “democracy”, it exists as a refuge against the cruelty of anti-Semitism.

    Deal with the specifics that Israel is at war and has been forever. The enemy are the Arabs who plan to exterminate Israel.

    The real problem is that the GOI does not recognise that and offers the Palestinian terrorists a state, which they will use to above purpose.

    Concise I hope. Any questions on this I will answer…

  • felix quigley

    One further point.

    The creation of the Jewish Homeland by the League of Nations in 1922 was reasonably fair, to the Arabs as well in the sense that the 1919 Paris Conference set up vast states and vast areas under Arab control which would later all become Independent states. Thus king Feisal who represented the Arabs ON THE ARAB DELEGATION was prepared and was happy with the arrangement.

    The Jewish Homeland must be seen in that overall context.

  • circles

    Michael Collins was “happy” with his settlement too – which doesn’t really say much

  • felix quigley

    circles

    Well actually the 26 and 6 county division was not THAT unfair, do you not think. Or do you mean the protestant unionists should get nothing!

    Back to issue

    The Arabs did gain independence in various states on an area over TWICE the size of the United States.

    But not to allow the Jews a small state the size of Wales !!!

    That is unfair…

    All out of the breakup of the Ottomans. And what about the Kurds!!!

    But the point I made was not that, the decision to create a Jewish Homeland has to be seen in the creation of many independent ARAB states, ESPECIALLY THE GRANTING OF CISJORDAN OUT OF THE PROPOSED LEAGUE OF NATIONS JEWISH HOMELAND.

    Can you not deal with the historical issues. Criticise me properly.

  • felix quigley

    As this thread comes to an end i would note:

    I answered Mick Hall point by point but Mick has not replied.

    My posts were not short but they were historical and were not jumk. This issue is above all historical.

    I will finish my part on this thread by replying to the perennial issue of Palestinian refugees with this selection of quotes, all sourced, FROM THE MOUTHS OF THE ARABS THEMSELVES

    “A collection of historical quotations relating to the Arab refugees:
    Collected by Moshe Kohn

    ON APRIL 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine ArabHigher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council: “The Arabs did notwant to submit to a truce … They preferred to abandon their homes,belongings and everything they possessed.”

    ON SEPTEMBER 6, 1948, the Beirut Daily Telegraph quoted Emil Ghory, secretary of the AHC, as saying: “The fact that there are those refugees isthe direct consequence of the action of the Arab states in opposingpartition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously…”

    ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that in 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had “assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade … Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states.”

    IN THE MARCH 1976 issue of Falastin a-Thaura, then the official journal of the Beirut-based PLO, Mahmud Abbas (“Abu Mazen”), PLO spokesman, wrote: “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”

    ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin, as saying: “For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumours exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs … they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy.”

    ANOTHER refugee told the Jordanian daily a-Difaa on September 6, 1954: “The Arab governments told us, ‘Get out so that we can get in.’ So we got out, but they did not get in.”

    THE JORDANIAN daily Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949: “The Arab states… encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.”

    ON OCTOBER 2, 1948, the London Economist reported, in an eyewitness account of the flight of Haifa’s Arabs: “There is little doubt that the most potent of the factors [in the flight] were the announcements made over the air by the Arab Higher Executive urging all Arabs in Haifa to quit … And it was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.”

    THE PRIME Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, in his memoirs, published in 1973, listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arabfailure in 1948: ” … the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to theinhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries … We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees bycalling on them and pleading with them to leave their land.”

    “FOLLOWING a visit to refugees in Gaza, a British diplomat reported the following: ‘But while they express no bitterness against theJews…they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states: ‘We know who our enemies are,’ they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes.” –
    British Foreign Office Document
    #371/75342/XC/A/4991 [From “Revising or Devising Israel’s History” by Prof. Shlomo Slonim in Jewish Action, Summer 5760/2000, Vol. 60 #4]
    This page was produced by Joseph E. Katz
    Middle Eastern Political and Religious History Analyst
    Brooklyn, New York
    E-mail to a friend
    Source: Independent Media Review and Analysis (IMRA) “