a united Ireland plagued by gangsters

Frank Millar, in the Irish Times, reports the comments of the chief constable of West Yorkshire, Colin Cramphorn, the last deputy chief constable of the RUC and then acting chief constable of the PSNI, from this interview in the Yorkshire Evening Post

A former Northern Ireland police chief has predicted that a united Ireland will emerge in about 15 years but that “it will be like Sicily” with “self-policing” by Mafia-type organisations.

Millar picks out some of the comments from the article, in particular –

He does not see the present process providing a smooth transition to a “normal” democracy. “I think in about 15 or so years we will see the unification of Ireland. And it will be like Sicily.

“Already conventional crime in Belfast is lower than it is in cities like Leeds, but self-policing by a Mafia-type organisation such as the IRA tells another story – a most unpleasant one,” he said.

And also points to this quote, from the interview in the Yorkshire Evening Post with Colin Cramphorn, on future organised criminal activity –

“Neither is the IRA about to go away, it won’t be abandoning its organised criminal activity. This is the most sophisticated, politically strategic organisation I know. It’s a global business, it runs like clockwork – and it has pensions to pay to loyal volunteers and operatives who have given long service. Pensions are promised, they are in the contracts. These people are looked after and they are looked after well. This is not the end of the IRA, it is the beginning of another new era of it.”

  • T o Kane

    what nonsense mr cramphorn has avery poor insight into the north of ireland to come out with such drivel and tosay that a united ireland would be crime ridden utter nonsense

  • francesco

    the man should try to take care of those thugs involved in the lvf/uvf instead of talking about sicily, eventhough what can ye expect from and ruc officer!
    too much free time in his hands

  • Dave

    Mr Cramphorn isn’t telling the people of ULSTER anything new, it has always been the case of SF/IRA surpressing the Catholic population of ULSTER by way of murder and intimidation.

    Has SF/IRA been defeated? Yes they have been defeated the armed campaign is now dead.

    As I have said before SF/IRA must take Dublin first “politically! before they could hope to take ULSTER.
    SF/IRA will continue to use the tactics of the Nazi party ot 1923 Germany (they have already got the BROWN SHIRTS in their ranks.)

    SF/IRA aka the GREEN NAZI PARTY

  • The Binlid

    “it has always been the case of SF/IRA surpressing the Catholic population of ULSTER by way of murder and intimidation.”

    Much the same as the loyalist terrorists suppressing the protestant population by murder and intimidation.
    And in any case what would you know about what the catholic population were experiencing. Intimidation and murder of the ‘catholic’ population was dominated much more by the british ‘security’ forces in collusion with loyalist terrorists.

  • Sean Fear

    We’re back to Monty Python again.

    “Gerry Kelly; lovely man; ‘e wouldn’t ‘urt a fly.”

  • beano

    Am I the only one worried that with the IRA “ending the armed campaign” that certain areas of Northern Ireland will be vulnerable to a take over from the People’s Front of Judea?

  • maca

    Yeah, I think you’re alone there Beano.

  • Alan McDonald

    Beano,

    You should be alone, you “Splitter!”

    Bwing me Bwian!

  • The Watchman

    I think Cramphorn’s opinion of a united Ireland in 15 years is speculative in the extreme. I’ve heard this line from the Guilty Prod Tendency for years and any possibility of it happening through demographic change has been swept away by the 2001 census. Given the weakness of an economic case, the only substantive arguments in favour of unification are derived from narrow, chippy and futile ethnic hatreds, which ironically suit unionists just fine. I also find Cramphorn’s public advocacy of a political opinion inappropriate in a serving police officer, if not unique.

    But the rest of Cramphorn’s views is right. The reason why goes to the founding deceit of the Belfast Agreement.

    The Agreement was concluded on the understanding by the parties to it that the IRA had committed itself to exclusively democratic means and that the IRA was therefore obliged to decommission.

    Even when the IRA failed to begin decommissioning, few realised the significance. The prevailing wisdom was that the IRA was in a process of moving away from its past and the refusal to decommission was seen as an unwillingness to move quickly, rather than an unwillingness to move at all. The IRA was seen to be on a single track road where it could only move forward towards a democratic destination, just like the Officials did. This sense of inevitability helps to explain why David Trimble (long fixated with the emergence of the Workers Party) abandoned his “no guns-no government” position in November 1999, something he viewed as a calculated but justifiable risk.

    The IRA is clearly not doing what it did from 1969 to 1997 (with the odd break). But what if it has no intention of becoming a normal democratic party like any other?

    What if, to use a Blairite term, it has found its own Third Way? Political action matched by criminality?

  • fmk

    “A former Northern Ireland police chief has predicted that a united Ireland will emerge in about 15 years but that ‘it will be like Sicily’ with “self-policing” by Mafia-type organisations.”

    – so it’ll be a lot like dublin then, eh? i find it funny to have grown up in one of the rougher parts of the city (dolphin’s barn) and now be living in a nice clean new suburb (blanchardstown) only to have more shootings, stabbings etc on my doorstep, and more drug gangs in the area. most of the murders are inter-gang related, so to all and intents and purposes, it looks like they’re already “self policing”.

  • lib2016

    …..and to crown it all after years of allegations the Provvies have been cleared (by that nice RUC man Mr. McQuillan, no less) of involvement with the drugtrade.

    Instead it’s the followers of the entirely benign and wonderfully Christian Mr. Paisley who have been photographed in close proximity with UDA-supporters. I wonder where the UDA gets its money?

    Nor do I see re-unification taking 15 years especially if unionism keeps collapsing at the same rate as it has in the last few days.

  • Crow

    I think a more important question is does this mean the weather will improve?

  • Comrade Stalin

    “What if, to use a Blairite term, it has found its own Third Way? Political action matched by criminality?”

    I’m a lot more worried about the people who organized the Third Force. But of course, unionists like to pretend that never happened.

  • fmk

    “I think a more important question is does this mean the weather will improve?”

    not if the recent climate change survey is right – every other european capital is hotter than it was five years ago. except dublin. bah! 🙁

  • fair_deal

    CS

    What did the Third Force ever do that has you so worried?

  • Crow

    I think a more important question is does this mean the weather will improve?

  • Fanny

    I can’t believe the lame dismissal of the important point in this article. Proof if proof were needed that republicans live in as much a world of denial as unionists when it comes to the real issues clouding the horizon.

  • Sean Fear

    “and to crown it all after years of allegations the Provvies have been cleared (by that nice RUC man Mr. McQuillan, no less) of involvement with the drugtrade.”

    I suppose you agree with Peter Pan that a fairy dies whenever someone stops believing in them.

  • Colm

    Fanny

    The article said many things – what was the main important point you refer to.

  • Dave

    Well, well! nice to see that no one is disagreeing with the GREEN NAZI PARTY tag?

    why is that? Is this a case of ignore the comment and it will go away or is it a case of no point in denying what is truth.

    As for (what would i know about the suppressed Catholic population) why not ask the McCartney sisters about that or the politicians and non politicians who have been shot by the Brown shirts.

  • maca

    As for (what would i know about the suppressed Catholic population) why not ask the McCartney sisters about that or the politicians and non politicians who have been shot by the Brown shirts.”

    Will the McCarthy sisters or the “politicians and non politicians who have been shot by the Brown shirts” know what you know about the suppressed Catholic population? How?

  • Robert Keogh

    why is that? Is this a case of ignore the comment and it will go away or is it a case of no point in denying what is truth.

    No Dave, it’s because you made the comment: Godwin’s law.

  • buck eejit

    Dave
    Just a small point to help you with your GCSE history revision.
    The nazi party were ultra right wing.
    SF have predominantly had associations and connections with left wing groupings.
    wind your neck in.

  • Headmelter

    “What did the Third Force ever do that has you so worried?”

    Imported large amounts of, largely unnaccounted for, arms and ammunition. As far as I am aware they were not purchased from Toys’r’Us.

  • IJP

    Instead of just engaging in tribal banter, MOPEry and another round of ‘it was themmuns so it was’, can anyone actually explain why Mr Cramphorn is wrong?

    Can Nationalists explain exactly how such a mafia takeover would be stopped in a UI?

    Can Unionists explain why a United Ireland won’t/shouldn’t happen within 15 years?

  • maca

    “Instead of just engaging in tribal banter, MOPEry and another round of ‘it was themmuns so it was’, can anyone actually explain why Mr Cramphorn is wrong?”

    Spoil sport Ian! 😉

  • Denny Boy

    Cramphorn?!?

    What sort of name is that, Cramphorn? Is it one of those naughty old English nudge-nudge wink-wink names like Wagstaff and Shakespear?

  • Paul

    “Can Unionists explain why a United Ireland won’t/shouldn’t happen within 15 years?”

    IJP,

    At the last General Election, some 33% for whatever reason decided not to vote. In order for a border poll to go the way of a United Ireland, perhaps 2/3 of these people have to be persuaded to get out of their armchairs and vote for a change of system.

    Ignoring the political aspect of it, what would they gain from a UI?

    Would their employment prospects alter for the better(particularly if they’re working in the public sector?

    Would their taxes and social security payments decrease in the 32 County state?

    Would they not face a lot of admin hassle switching over bank accounts, pension plans etc?

    Would the education/health/welfare system improve?

    At the minute and for the foreseeable future, I can’t see strong enough reasons for them, to want to change what is for many of them a pretty comfortable status quo. So, I don’t think we’ll see a UI within the timescale mentioned. If I’m proved wrong and the majority do vote for it, then as a democrat, I’ve got to accept that it should happen.

    “Can Nationalists explain exactly how such a mafia takeover would be stopped in a UI?”

    Never mind in a UI, can anyone explain how we can stop it happening in NI, if the present policing policy continues?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Personally speaking I nominally support the union for reasons of stability (the nationalists seem happy enough to work with it for the time being) and I’m not interested in even thinking about constitutional change until all our other problems are sorted out, but it’s obvious to anyone that our lot would be considerably better off in a united Ireland.

    Instead of being an unwanted offshoot of the UK we’d be a significant player in an island economy with real power to get things done in line with our interests. The lower rates of corporation tax would provide a much-needed boost to indigenous businesses. I don’t care much for people who would change their vote one way or another over the question of the social security system and what sort of handouts they might be able to get; it seems rather unprincipled.

  • Dave

    FAO BE

    “Dave
    Just a small point to help you with your GCSE history revision.
    The nazi party were ultra right wing.
    SF have predominantly had associations and connections with left wing groupings.
    wind your neck in.”

    Hi BE,

    I’m sure that you probably know more about the Nazi party than I?

    Please note!
    This is what I stated:

    “SF/IRA will continue to use the tactics of the Nazi party of 1923 Germany (they have already got the BROWN SHIRTS in their ranks.)”

    Here is a clue (use the tactics of the Nazi party)

    You are right about one thing you are buck eejit!

    As for your request to wind my neck in, is that a threat? or your way of letting people know that you were once in the Royal Navy/Marines I could be wrong about that maybe you just happen to live near a Navy base.

    Speak that I may see thee, old BJ was a clever man.

    The people of pre war Germany said they didn’t know what the Nazi party was about until it was too late, all I am doing is informing people that SF/IRA are no better, I deem that as a public service,no charge.

  • peter

    you can take the man out of the RUC, but you can’t take the RUC out of the man

  • kitty

    ‘The people of pre war Germany said they didn’t know what the Nazi party was about until it was too late, all I am doing is informing people that SF/IRA are no better, I deem that as a public service,no charge.’

    In my experience the only connection to Nazism in Northern Ireland is Loyalism, is that not so? A 60 second search on the internet produces pages and pages of documents and photographs incriminating Loyalism in its association with Nazism- through Combat 18 of which many Loyalists are and were members, the BNP, of which Loyalists leaders were and are members, Naiz Tatoos on the well muscled( steroid induced) arms of Loyalist leaders……. the ties and associations are endless.
    The bad news for Loyalism never ends. Their behaviour these days is very much like the scenes in the ghettos of warsaw and in the early years of ww2 Germany.
    Are you rasing the alarm in your own head, and for that matter, in your own consciousness?

  • kitty

    ‘The people of pre war Germany said they didn’t know what the Nazi party was about until it was too late, all I am doing is informing people that SF/IRA are no better, I deem that as a public service,no charge.’

    In my experience the only connection to Nazism in Northern Ireland is Loyalism, is that not so? A 60 second search on the internet produces pages and pages of documents and photographs incriminating Loyalism in its association with Nazism- through Combat 18 of which many Loyalists are and were members, the BNP, of which Loyalists leaders were and are members, Naiz Tatoos on the well muscled( steroid induced) arms of Loyalist leaders……. the ties and associations are endless.
    The bad news for Loyalism never ends. Their behaviour these days is very much like the scenes in the ghettos of warsaw and in the early years of ww2 Germany.
    Are you rasing the alarm in your own house, and for that matter, in your own consciousness?

  • Intelligence Insider

    Kitty,
    Although some mis-guided “loyalists” may have formed associations with neo-nazi groups it is a fact that the nationalist population where the ones who founded links with the real nazi party. Who was the only political leader in the Western World to give condolences to Germany on the death of Adolf Hitler? I’m sure I don’t need to remind you it was Devalera. It’s unfortunate that nationalists continue to support Sinn Fein as a party but I suppose it should not be viewed as extraodinary given that the nationalist population have always supported criminal/terrorist’s and rapists to represent them. Shame on them I say.

  • Fanny

    Loyalism has the connection to neo-Nazism.
    Republicanism has the connection to Hitler.

    I trust that Kitty is now better informed.

  • maca

    II
    “the nationalist population have always supported criminal/terrorist’s and rapists to represent them.”

    One might say that the same could be said of the unionist/loyalist community.

    p.s. i’m curious, what SF/SDLP (ex)member was convicted for rape?

    “Shame on them I say.”

    Shame on the lot of ye.

  • lib2016

    Intelligence Insider – That’s the same De Valera who was Secretary of the League of Nations and who tried so hard to prevent the Second World War. As a world statesman he had responsibilities beyond your petty partisanship.

    Winston Churchill was in partnership with an even bigger mass murderer Joseph Stalin because he wanted the British Empire ‘to last a thousnd years’.

    That he was undoubtedly on the right side doesn’t mean that we have to crawl in the gutter with malicious misrepresentations of the past. You destroy your own credibility with this type of post.

  • peter

    Dev was in good company. The Swiss and Swedes also followed required diplomatic protocol with personal calls to embassies in their countries

  • Jimmy_Sands

    lib is right. It’s an annoying canard that is frequently raised. Dev, for all his faults, was no fellow traveller, which is more than can be said for many of his domestic opponents. At home he faced few demands to participate in the war, but he did face demands to break ranks with sanctions against Mussolini, or to grant recognition to Franco during the civil war, demands which he resisted.

    The Cruiser has a theory about the embassy visit: he thinks dev was hoping for a British backlash which would galvanise the FF base for that year’s presidential election. It’s as good a theory as any I’ve heard.

  • Paul

    “Instead of just engaging in tribal banter, MOPEry and another round of ‘it was themmuns so it was’, can anyone actually explain why Mr Cramphorn is wrong?”

    IJP,
    You did your best, failed again, I’m afraid.
    Leave them to it.

  • lib2016

    It would be like arguing with Gen. Myers (Rtd.). Cramphorn must have had a very good lunch that day. He gives no explanation for his views on when reunification will take place and massively over-estimates republican efficency to explain his own failure against them. It’s just the same old, same old……

  • Headmelter

    Dave
    This is also what you said,

    “SF/IRA aka the GREEN NAZI PARTY “
    By including the word nazi you imply SF have similar policies as to that of the fascists. I merely informed you of the conflict your idea has with the majority of people with a higher IQ than a goldfish.Read some of the other posts on this thread if you don’t understand it get an adult to explain it to you.
    BTW, This is also free.

    “As for your request to wind my neck in, is that a threat? or your way of letting people know that you were once in the Royal Navy/Marines I could be wrong about that maybe you just happen to live near a Navy base.”

    Maybe I was, maybe I am, maybe I do.
    How would you perceive this as a threat? none intended. This phrase is a polite way of saying stop getting on like a twat. You could be just too paranoid to realise you talk a lot of old bovine applause.

    “The people of pre war Germany said they didn’t know what the Nazi party was about until it was too late, all I am doing is informing people that SF/IRA are no better, I deem that as a public service,no charge.

    Who do you think would pay for pearls of wisdom such as these?
    Well you may get some takers down at your local kneebreakers arms but don’t be sending your cv off to Queens just yet.

    “You are right about one thing you are buck eejit!”
    I may well be but I’m one with clarity of thought.

  • Headmelter

    “former Northern Ireland police chief has predicted that a united Ireland will emerge in about 15 years “
    With the current economic and employment situation this is unlikely but not imposssible.But the game could all change in 6 months time. It is already apparent that there are differences in policy for britain and the six counties ie Health and bowel cancer screening.Continued direct rule will innevitabley result in similar and more damaging policy differences.Without the IRA to blame for such a pitiful life people may want to know why their lives are so crap and demand more responsibility and accountability from their politicians. In five years the election could possibly be fought on social and economic issues.
    In ten years from now britain may be using the Euro.If the six counties continues to provide the british taxpayer with a similar bill each year the govt could make a United Ireland a policy goal.
    In fifteen, if there is a significant reduction of public sector employment and reliance on benefits a United Ireland may seem a much more appealing option.

    Oops forgot loyalist terrorists haven’t agreed to decommission yet, add ten years to the timetable.

  • Cahal

    “In five years the election could possibly be fought on social and economic issues.”

    Headmelter, lay off the wackybacky.

    Good point about the Euro. When the Euro is introduced in the north the only borders will be in here (points to own head).

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Ignoring the political aspect of it, what would they gain from a UI?
    Would their employment prospects alter for the better(particularly if they’re working in the public sector?
    Would their taxes and social security payments decrease in the 32 County state?”

    This is a fine opportunity for the budding SF supporters in our midst to outline exactly what a ’32 County Socialist Republic’ would entail.

  • DCB

    I think you’ll see a United Ireland before you see Britian join the euro.

  • BogExile

    I think you’ll see a United Ireland before you see Britian join the euro.

    Fantastic – the date is set then – the 21st of never.

  • Dandyman

    Excuse my ignorance, but it keeps popping up on different threads – what is ‘MOPE’, does it stand for something?

    By the way, I think a lot of the posts debating the likelihood of a UI are missing the point. Most people in the 26 counties would secretly love to see it happen, but the problem is that no matter how jingoistic either side wants to be about ‘who won the war’ etc, the whole ideal has been soiled now. It’s not because of purely economic/materialistic reasons that people would have given up on the idea now, it’s that it doesn’t matter which flag is hoisted above the province at this stage. NI society has been so damaged & destroyed by the troubles, especially in the eyes of outsiders, that no-one in their right mind would want to have anything to do with the place. I mean who would want to live there? who wants to live in a place where neighbours have to live in mortal fear of each other, where 15 year old kids can’t even walk to the local shop without getting stabbed to death because minds have been so warped by what’s been happening over the last 35 years that there is literally a psycho walking around every corner, where ‘peace walls’ have to be built between adjoining housing estates? Northen Ireland’s a pathetic, dangerous, depressing, scary shithole and it doesn’t matter anymore who ‘wins the war’, society will continue to tear itself apart up there for generations to come, regardless of any deals made by millionaire politicians.

  • trig

    Limerick’s a lovely wee place, as long as you wear a bullet proof vest

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    trig

    Believe it or not, it’s been a year since the last murder in Limerick.

    Alive in Limerick

  • Dandyman

    Oh Jeezis here we go with the all-time classic retort from Nordies about Limerick.

    What’s going on in Limerick is a glorified dispute among settled travellers who are trying to imitate life on THE SOPRANOS. Any smartarse who thinks for a split second that Limerick can be compared with Belfast because a few spides give the finger to some media photographers outside a law court is dreaming. Limerick has a lower crime rate than Cork or Dublin.

    Ask anyone who pays attention to Irish-related affairs if they were to consider their own safety and that of their family, which side of the border they’d prefer to live. Which answer would you (honestly) expect?

  • Diarmid Logan

    Better an united Ireland run by gangsters than a divided one ruled by British colonialism.

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    Dandyman

    Excuse my ignorance, but it keeps popping up on different threads – what is ‘MOPE’, does it stand for something?

    I answered your question earlier today on the Who would live in a town like this? thread, but maybe you didn’t see it.

    MOPE = Most Oppressed People Ever.

    Wikipedia entry for ‘MOPE’

  • darthrumsfeld

    “Better an united Ireland run by gangsters than a divided one ruled by British colonialism.”

    ah -the authentic voice of South Armagh !

  • Dandyman

    Cheers Gerry, yeah I knew it was going to be something glaringly obvious.

    I remember a few years back some current affairs magazine journalist, in an article about the various oubreaks of MOPERY in the US between Black people and Jewish people, did actually opine that if there was an award for such an acronym it probably did belong to the Irish.

    His reasoning was that 6 millions Jews were killed in the holocaust during WW2, but that this was in the context of a much larger European Jewish population. over 40 million Africans are thought to have died in 3 centuries of slave trading between Africa and Europe, but of course this is in the context of them all being lumped together as ‘African’ in a continent of hundreds of millions of Africans, and spread out over a long period of time.

    According to this Journalist’s argument (I can’t remember his name anyway, but I won’t mention which weekly current affairs magazine it was lest somebody come on with a post threatening litigation etc.) neither of these really compare with the suffering of a nation which in 1840 had a population of 9 million, and had just over 3 million inhabitants by the end of the century. Mind you I still reckon we probably did better than the native Americans or Aborigines, many of whom were in turn slaughtered by Irish emigrants and their descendants as the European hordes ‘conquered’ the ‘new world’.

    Aren’t we a very enlightened and highly-evolved species altogether?

  • smcgiff

    ‘Better an united Ireland run by gangsters than a divided one ruled by British colonialism.’

    I really don’t know ye at all!

  • Biffo

    Damdyman

    “I mean who would want to live there?”

    Well, if I take a dander round Belfast city centre at lunch time, it seems to be mainly Chinese, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans and Africans, there’s loads of them.

    Any other questions on Northern society?

  • murphaph

    There won’t be a united ireland in 15 years or anytime soon for that matter. Many of us in the south see all the hassles of this fued and that fued and to be honest, we have our own troubles and can’t be arsed taking on NI’s troubles too.

    I’d be interested to hear how southern members of the PSNI are perceived by folks up north. They’re always advertising for recruits in the papers down here in an effort to hit their 30% RC quota by 2010.

  • kitty

    Poor Fanny, ‘Loyalism has the connection to neo-Nazism.
    Republicanism has the connection to Hitler.

    Dragging out the bottom of the argument barrell again ,are you?
    Republicanism has no affiliation with Hitler or Nazism . Loyalism does. Simple facts seem to excape you?

  • Headmelter

    “I mean who would want to live there? who wants to live in a place where neighbours have to live in mortal fear of each other, where 15 year old kids can’t even walk to the local shop without getting stabbed to death because minds have been so warped by what’s been happening over the last 35 years that there is literally a psycho walking around every corner”

    After living and working abroad for some time you could apply this to many places.
    One thing I have noticed is the amount of time local media spend reporting the negative aspects of the six counties. If anyone has sky tv try watching the bbc regional news programmes and compare the amount of ‘negative’ versus ‘positive’ articles.
    Maybe we want to be a nation of MOPErs.

  • merrygoroundoflove

    Just on the neo-nazi thing – surely the burning of newspapers and the intimidation of shopkeepers who stock the Sunday World wins this week’s star prize for tactics most closely mirroring those of the Nazi party?

  • Headmelter

    “Well, if I take a dander round Belfast city centre at lunch time, it seems to be mainly Chinese, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans and Africans, there’s loads of them.”

    Well Biffo,
    try going to any other major city in Europe and it is exactly the same. It has been given the term ‘multi cultural society’.Most of these people have much to offer and it is usually those who have an agenda that magnify and sensationalise the few negative stories or problems these people bring with them. I hope that these people who will help to anhance our lives and expand our minds don’t become the new ‘themmuns’

  • tom

    “Just on the neo-nazi thing – surely the burning of newspapers and the intimidation of shopkeepers who stock the Sunday World wins this week’s star prize for tactics most closely mirroring those of the Nazi party?”

    That makes Andre Shoukri a
    Half-Egyptian/loyalist/British/nazi

    Sounds about right for the uda.

  • Seán Mac Cann

    English people are lovely; much politer and more tolerant than we are. I lived there for years. But few of them have the faintest idea about Ireland, North or South. From my own experience: You’d mention you studied in Belfast; and it wasn’t unknown to get a response asking if that “was in NI or the Republic?” They could watch a documentary on the UDA and next day tell you about this very interesting programme “about the IRA”. They were baffled to learn that some NI paramilitaries supported the Union. And so on. Reason? They couldn’t care less. It’s a sad reflection on all of us when we get so exercised by the ahistorical doomsday witterings of some patronising, racist cop. Policemen are not noted for political insights. The nuances in the North are such that comments from outsiders, be they from the South or from England, usually miss the point. This is especially so if it’s some former Nordie who has lived abroad half his life (e.g., in Dublin 4) and now feels inclined to lecture the rest of us. It’s difficult to comment with accuracy on something that you feel is beneath you.

    s

  • Cahal

    “This is especially so if it’s some former Nordie who has lived abroad half his life (e.g., in Dublin 4) and now feels inclined to lecture the rest of us. “

    Did I miss the earthquake that opened up the fault line which runs across ireland? Or was that tongue in cheek?

  • Seán Mac Cann

    well come on, remember Ken Maginnis and all his talk of “the frontier” 😉
    of course it’s a wind up …

  • Dandyman

    ‘Any other questions on Northern Society?’

    Jaysus, Where do I start???

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Come on folks! 25 hours and nobody has attempted to answer this question:

    ”This is a fine opportunity for the budding SF supporters in our midst to outline exactly what a ’32 County Socialist Republic’ would entail.”

    Does this mean there are no SF supporters on Slugger or do they just not know the answer?
    Let’s widen it out — does ANYBODY know the answer?

  • Valenciano

    There are numerous reasons why a UI isn’t going to happen in the next 15 years. The demilitarisation aspect of things and fading of the memories of the discrimination of the Stormont era gives catholics much less reason to be pissed off now. Catholic birth rates are falling and the growth in the nationalist electorate seems to have bottomed out. The Assembly elections of 2003 for example were the first for over 2 decades that Unionists improves their position relative to Nationalists.

    It is also still the case that protestant areas (especially in the East) have lower turnouts than Catholic ones so the raw figures probably overstate support for a UI. That is of course assuming that a vote for the SDLP is a vote for a UI which is dubious proposition in many cases.

    For a UI to happen it would need protestants to vote for it and now that Sinn Fein are the standard bearers of Northern Nationalism, with their chequered history, this is going to be much less likely. Gerry and Martin are hate figures in the Protestant community in a way that John Hume and Seamus Mallon could never be and their prominence in a UI referendum campaign would mobilise the masses.

    On the DeValera thing, yes a disgraceful act however it has to be measured against his other actions. Allowing Southern fire crews to go North after Belfast was blitzed, allowing overfly of Donegal by allied planes and allowing downed British airmen to return to their regiments (while Germans were interned) are actions that go against the closet fascist sympathiser theory.

  • Valenciano

    “Gerry and Martin are hate figures in the Protestant community in a way that John Hume and Seamus Mallon could never be and their prominence in a UI referendum campaign would mobilise the masses.”

    To clarify, I mean that that would mobilise people to vote AGAINST a UI.

  • joemomma

    “Republicanism has no affiliation with Hitler or Nazism . Loyalism does. Simple facts seem to excape you?”

    It’s not quite as simple as that. Contemporary republicans don’t have any links to neo-nazi or extreme right-wing groups, but they do annually commemorate the Nazi collaborator Seán Russell. Of course they disavow Hitler’s politics, but justify the collaboration on the basis that “England’s difficulty is our opportunity”.

    Working out the ethical issues is left as an exercise for the reader.

  • Dave

    Well, it seems that each and everyone has missed the point I was making.

    “SF/IRA will continue to use the tactics of the Nazi party of 1923 Germany (they have already got the BROWN SHIRTS in their ranks).”
    I don’t equate SF/IRA as Nazis, I State that SF/IRA use Nazis tactics AND THEY DO

    As for having BROWN SHIRTS in the ranks they do

    This has been stated by well known republicans who have written statements to the BLANKET equating members of SF/IRA to that of the Brown shirts.

    If people can’t take the truth they should look elsewhere for their entertainment

  • maca

    “This is a fine opportunity for the budding SF supporters in our midst to outline exactly what a ’32 County Socialist Republic’ would entail”

    Not a SF supporter but tell me, is there any point answering the question, are we ever likely to have a 32 county socialist republic?

  • Jimmy_Sands

    Dave,

    the nazis were militant extreme nationlists with an armed paramilitary wing who believed that their country had been unjustly partioned by an act of betrayal, and that this must be resisted if necessary by force. The fact that the democratic institutions of the state had approved this betrayal merely underlined that they were unworthy of allegiance and should be overthrown.

    Obviously any comparison with provisionalism is absurd.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Not a SF supporter but tell me, is there any point answering the question, are we ever likely to have a 32 county socialist republic?”

    Hopefully not, but given SFs ambitious electoral aspirations in the South, shouldn’t we at least be told what their utopia is?
    Woolyisms such as ‘Building an Ireland of Equals’ are hardly enough.

  • maca

    Gerry Lvs Castro
    I don’t see the point. More interesting to discuss might be what a 32 country republic might really be like. I’ve no interest in the SF version.

  • Valenciano

    Jimmy: “the nazis were militant extreme nationlists with an armed paramilitary wing who believed that their country had been unjustly partioned by an act of betrayal, and that this must be resisted if necessary by force. The fact that the democratic institutions of the state had approved this betrayal merely underlined that they were unworthy of allegiance and should be overthrown. Obviously any comparison with provisionalism is absurd.”

    Yes Jimmy, Ireland is sulking over its defeat in the last war because it was “stabbed in the back”. Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals are sweating in their boots about Gerry Adams being co-opted as part of a coalition government and Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria are strengthening their frontiers as we speak….

    I’m no fan of the Provos but do try and keep comparisons within the bounds of credibility!

  • Valenciano

    Maca, I think even the Shinners themselves have given up on the idea. It’s their equivalent of the Labour parties clause four – it’s never been jettisoned because no one believes that they’ll actually put it into practice anyway.

  • Jimmy_Sands

    What comparison?

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”I don’t see the point. More interesting to discuss might be what a 32 country republic might really be like.”

    A larger version of the 26 County One, presumably, with some ongoing troublesome civil unrest in the North, and constant agitation from SF everywhere.

    ”I’ve no interest in the SF version.”

    You should have because they’re aiming for govt north & south. Wouldn’t you like to know what their policies are?

  • maca

    Gerry Lvs Castro
    “A larger version of the 26 County One, presumably, with some ongoing troublesome civil unrest in the North, and constant agitation from SF everywhere.”

    Not quite, there’s a lot of things would need to change in the 26 cty model to accomodate the 6 counties.

    “You should have because they’re aiming for govt north & south.”

    Matters not, there will be no “SF model” 32 cty Ireland.

  • smcgiff

    ‘You should have because they’re aiming for govt north & south. Wouldn’t you like to know what their policies are?’

    SF are big in a NI context because of the value NI voters put on sectarian politics. Not so in the Republic where at best SF will only ever be a minor partner in government. But can you imagine FF power sharing with SF? Though I’ve no doubt that they’ll someday soon say that SF are an option for government partnership (if for no other reason than to placate the DUP and the DUP’s supporters) I don’t see it happening in practice.

    FF and other parties will have learned from the SDLP’s woes, and there isn’t even the same justification to offer them political power as there was in NI.

    The 32 county government would most certainly have a strong Protestant party in its coalition. In time there would be no Protestant or Catholic parties – Just general political parties, and ironically, no need for SF. Unless they decide to set up in Cuba.

    Vote for a 32 County Ireland to end SF rule! :->

  • dubliner

    “Vote for a 32 County Ireland to end SF rule! :->”

    If you add the north you get more of criminal Sinn Fein in the Dail amd our democracy. I am happier without that.

  • smcgiff

    ‘If you add the north you get more of criminal Sinn Fein in the Dail amd our democracy. I am happier without that.’

    It’s a risk certainly, but one diluted by a larger population in general. And all the more need for a counter balance of “Protestant” parties which are used to dealing with them.

    But, I suppose one is in favour of a UI or not, and one forms their argument based on that stance.

  • Dave

    FAO Jimmy Sands

    “Obviously any comparison with provisionalism is absurd.”

    i see what you mean but some people will always make the comparison that SF/IRA are no better or different than the nazi moment of the 1920/30s.

    like me.

  • The Binlid

    Dave,
    As on other posts you have been the ONLY one to make this comparison and were deafening by your silence when numerous posters provided you with an educated analysis of your opinion.

    You appear to imagine you have a great understanding of nazis history and policy. Might you also have an interest in graffiti?

    Now as you were told before Wind your neck in.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “the ONLY one to make this comparison “

    You need to read more.