Blair to return to London…

It seems Tony Blair is to leave the other leaders at the G8 meeting in Gleneagles to return to London. Of the 1000 Metropolitan officers on duty in Scotland several specialists may be picked out to return to the capital. Blair is expected to arrive back in Scotland this evening.

Update: BBC saying it looks like it could be Al Queda. Nothing definate though. As Pete says, keep your eye on Neil McIntosh for fresh news and the extraordinary wikipedia. And Blair’s statement.

Update to the update: BBC have just repeated Ansa’s report that 50 have died without confirming it. A previously unknown group has claimed it for Al Queda.

  • peteb

    Quote from Blair’s statement –

    “Our determination to defend our values and ways of life is greater than their desire to create death and destruction and impose extremism on the world. What ever they do it is our determination that they shall not succeed.”

  • Will

    that Quote says it all really

  • Tom

    London is in a state of chaos. There is no transport and total gridlock. Bewildered people are standing around the windows of Dixons watching the news. this is london’s nightmare. It is going to be a long walk from the office this afternoon.

  • Occasional Commentator

    The BBC have now dropped the “Islamic website claiming responsibility” story from their breaking news ticker. Clearly the news organisations are tripping over themselves trying to get any sort of news out, even if it’s not true.

    Do you remember on 9/11/2001, the BBC were saying for many hours that “6 people reported killed” when it was clearly many 100’s? It turned out that they were reporting the WTC bombing from years earlier but had mixed the two stories up.

    Expect every “analyst” and his dog to give us some silly theory just so he/she can get a bit of the limelight, I include sycophants like Police Commissioner Ian Blair in that.

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    7 bombs on the 7th day of the 7th month… sounds fishy suspiciously al-qeada-like.

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    Still there when I look OC.

  • Occasional Commentator

    Sorry guys. beano’s right. It was on the LATEST: ticker at the top of the front page, but has now gone from there. I mistakely jumped to the conclusion that they pulled the story.

    Does anyone have a link to the Islamic website?

  • simon

    reported from fox news

    “Rejoice, Islamic nation. Rejoice, Arab world. The time has come for vengeance against the Zionist crusader government of Britain in response to the massacres Britain committed in Iraq and Afghanistan,” said the statement, which was translated by The Associated Press in Cairo.

    The authenticity of the message could not be immediately confirmed.

    “The heroic mujahedeen carried out a blessed attack in London, and now Britain is burning with fear and terror, from north to south, east to west,” the statement said.

    “We warned the British government repeated. We have carried out our promise and carried out a military attack in Britain after great efforts by the heroic mujahedeen over a long period to ensure its success.”

    “We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all crusader governments that they will receive the same punishment if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan,” the statement went on.

    It was signed: “The Secret Organization of Al Qaeda in Europe.”

  • simon

    reported from fox news. can’t post it here for some reason so this is it from my blog
    http://dossing.blogspot.com/2005/07/he-secret-organization-of-al-qaeda-in.html

  • simon

    opps didn’t mean to post twice. feel free to delete

  • Conor

    It’s obviously Islamic terrorists

  • barney

    Has Felipe Gonzalez, ex-general secretary of the Socialist Workers Party of Spain and ex-PM, blamed ETA yet?

  • peteb

    Mick

    Via perfect.co.uk

    London Blasts claimed by Al Qaeda

  • heck

    I know this may sound callous but is anyone blaming Tony Blair? It was his policies in the Middle East that lead to this.

    He thinks he can go to Iraq and kill hundreds of thousands of Arabs and not expect them to hit back.

    Or are we getting the sort of crap reporting that happened in northern Ireland—“people motivated by hate”—-“people who love violence”—“we will not give in”?

    Having said that, it is still a tragedy for the poor people who were killed, and their families. The death high but I hope it does not reach the level it did in Spain. A tragedy for the people of London.

    I just hope Londoners put the blame on Blair and his henchmen and not turn on their good Pakistani neighbors.

  • GavBelfast

    “Has Felipe Gonzalez, ex-general secretary of the Socialist Workers Party of Spain and ex-PM, blamed ETA yet?”

    I suppose I really should have just ignored it, but is anyone else fed-up with puerile, insensitive and frankly irrelevant contributions like this?

    You can only wonder at the bizarre thought-process involved in posting this sort of thing, today of all days.

  • veritas

    From the BBC.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4660799.stm

    —Ulster Unionist leader Sir Reg Empey said: “We in this part of the UK have experienced first hand the evil of republican terrorism and stand shoulder to shoulder today with the people of London”.

    Why do we have politicians as tribalistic and as ignorant as this? Thank God we have never experienced the evil of unionist terrorism. Eh?

    Again, from the BBC.

    Meanwhile, Irish President McAleese has sent a message of sympathy to the Queen on behalf of the people of Ireland following the terrorist attacks.

    “Today, which should have been a day of righteous celebration for Londoners, having successfully won the bid for the 2012 Olympics, has been turned into a day of cruel and vicious waste of innocent human life,” said President McAleese.

    And once again from the BBC.

    Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said he had sent a message of sympathy and solidarity to Prime Minister Tony Blair and Mayor of London Ken Livingstone.

    “On behalf of Sinn Fein I offer my sincere condolences to the victims and the families of those killed and injured and to the people of London,” he said.

    SDLP leader Mark Durkan said the attacks would “instil deep fear among the entire London community”.

    “At a time when the eyes of the world are on the G8 summit and the possibility of agreed action to address some of the fundamental injustices in this world, it is all the more appalling that such an awful injustice should be perpetrated on completely innocent people.”

    Thanks Sir Reg. Small minded & petty. Your people deserve better in these times.

    My heartfelt sympathy goes to Londoners, without qualifications like Sir Reg’s.

  • veritas

    From the BBC.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4660799.stm

    —Ulster Unionist leader Sir Reg Empey said: “We in this part of the UK have experienced first hand the evil of republican terrorism and stand shoulder to shoulder today with the people of London”.

    Why do we have politicians as tribalistic and as ignorant as this? Thank God we have never experienced the evil of unionist terrorism. Eh?

    Again, from the BBC.

    Meanwhile, Irish President McAleese has sent a message of sympathy to the Queen on behalf of the people of Ireland following the terrorist attacks.

    “Today, which should have been a day of righteous celebration for Londoners, having successfully won the bid for the 2012 Olympics, has been turned into a day of cruel and vicious waste of innocent human life,” said President McAleese.

    And once again from the BBC.

    Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said he had sent a message of sympathy and solidarity to Prime Minister Tony Blair and Mayor of London Ken Livingstone.

    “On behalf of Sinn Fein I offer my sincere condolences to the victims and the families of those killed and injured and to the people of London,” he said.

    SDLP leader Mark Durkan said the attacks would “instil deep fear among the entire London community”.

    “At a time when the eyes of the world are on the G8 summit and the possibility of agreed action to address some of the fundamental injustices in this world, it is all the more appalling that such an awful injustice should be perpetrated on completely innocent people.”

    Thanks Sir Reg. Small minded & petty. Your people deserve better in these times.

    My heartfelt sympathy goes to Londoners, without qualifications like Sir Reg’s.

  • mwk

    heck: go away. Just go away. The only people to blame for this are those that think it acceptable to go into commuter-land and plant bombs.

    That doesn’t hurt the government, or Blair, at all. It kills, maims and destroys life of those with no say in what goes on in the upper echelons of power. Maybe they walked on an anti-Iraq demo, and they get killed too. Maybe they voted for an anti-war party. They still get targeted.

    Go and take your liberal middleclass guilt-ridden hand-wringing elsewhere. The only *only* people to blame are the cowradly terrorists.

  • SWM

    Yes heck, furk off. I am agreeing with Kerr and I hate that. Only a complete furkwit deals in absolutes – turd furker.

  • heck

    I’m sure emotions are high in London at the minute but if I knew anyone who was killed to day I would be like the father for the dead British soldier who stood against Blair. I would do everything I could to drive that lying b****** out of office.

    People can throw all the expletives they like at me but it won’t alter the fact that this tragedy is a direct result of the actions of Tony Blair and new labour. To ignore that is to stick one’s head in the sand.

    Indulging in mindless condemnation will do nothing to prevent this happening again. We should have learned that from 30 years of war in Northern Ireland.

    The best thing that can be done for the victims is to pull British troops out of Iraq and make sure this doesn’t happen again.

    I have seen on the news people condemning George Galloway for making the same point. Sometimes the truth hurts and vulgar 4 letter insults won’t change that.

  • peteb

    The mindlessness is all George’s (and yours), “heck”.

  • 6countyprod

    There is a cost for standing against tyranny. Today, London paid part of that price. The British soldiers who have died in Iraq have also paid the price for removing a monster from power.

    Al qaeda is in a war against Israel, and anyone who would remotely support their right to exist, hence the execution of the Egyptian ambassador to Iraq. Anyone who is not anti-semetic is considered an enemy by Al qaeda. These extremists also want to destroy our liberal way of life. That is why they must not win.

  • Fly on the Wall

    Heck,

    Based on your comments I have to assume:

    1. You’re an American. (actually, this one is based on your email address — earthlink.net — you’re either an American or simply living in America). So am i — fine. But perhaps just for today you can step out of your xenophobe shell and allow those who live in London, those who have loved ones in London, as well as anyone in the entire world who has an iota of compassion for the people of London, to get home safely and grieve in peace and solitude. Put more bluntly, shut the f**k up, give it a rest for a few days, and then, if you must, go back to your moronic ranting further down the line and within a more innocuous subject/blog in this website.

    2. You’re a jackass who can’t see the forest for the trees: “Indulging in mindless condemnation will do nothing to prevent this happening again. We should have learned that from 30 years of war in Northern Ireland.” If that’s the case, why are you mindlessly condeming Blair on today of all days? This statement is overwhelmingly contradictory, though i doubt you have the capacity to see that.

    3. You support each and every violent act of the IRA. After all, based on your arguments, it was ALL Thatcher’s fault, and no individual IRA volunteer should be responsible for their part in thirty years of war.

    4. I will soon be barred by the moderator for playing the man and not the ball.

    [I was tempted.. – ed. Mod]

  • Nathan

    Here’s a selection of what the politicians have said about todays events:

    Pat Rabbitte and Michael Higgins,

    Enda Kenny,

    Bertie Ahern,

    Trevor Sargent,


    “>Gerry Adams,

    Not a word from the PeeDees as yet.

  • heck

    I feel like I am the only one pointing out the obvious here and not engaging in an orgy of mindless outrage, which does nothing for the victims and nothing to ensure that this doesn’t happen again.

    If I might draw a simple analogy to a group of boys around a wasps’ nest. If one of the boys decides to poke the nest with a stick and all the boys get stung, it is useless to simply getting off blaming the wasps. It would definitely be seen as stupid to launch a stream of vulgar expletives at anyone who pointed out that the boy with the stick might be to blame.

    Tony Blair was like this boy showing off when he launched his illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq which has killed over 100000 innocent Iraqis. It probably made him feel macho at the time. This has resulted in what has happened in London today. If I were a Londoner I would want Blair’s head on a stick.

    To flyonthe wall I have been consistent on this site in condemning the war in Iraq. This could have been foreseen.

  • Stray Toaster

    No, seriously heck, go away.

    So you condemn the war in Iraq continuously. Bully for you. Would that have spared you if you were in Kings Cross this morning? Not in the slightest.

    The people who did this want to destroy our entire way of life, regardless of anything else. Pulling out of Iraq isn’t the answer. The people who did this today aren’t fighting a war. It doesn’t take an army to hide bombs amongst the innocent.

    Your wasps’ nest analogy is laughable. Leaving them alone doesn’t stop them stinging you. Stamp on them first.

    I hear that this war is illegal all the time. Can you show me the court judgement (and in which jurisdiction) that this was so?

    It must be great to live in your world. Remember not to venture out where the rest of us are, you might get a shock.

    And you forsaw this? Great, I bet you feel happier now, with your smug removed detatchment to it all.

  • Fly on the Wall

    Heck,

    “I feel like I am the only one pointing out the obvious here” …

    Do you not understand that this particular blog might not be the best venue, or the best time, to pound on your chest proclaiming how ‘right’ you were?

    For God’s sake, give pause and spare a thought (and spare a blog!) for those who died and were injured today. While it would be terribly arrogant for me to assume what they’re last thoughts were, somehow i think they were more along the lines of their loved ones, and their favorite happy memories than ‘damn blair.’ You are not speaking for them by thumping on your chest. You are speaking over them, yelling loudly over the quiet of grief. If only for today, be still, be quiet, and be graceful.

  • Occasional Commentator

    heck is perfectly entitled to make his/her point. He hasn’t played the ball and his/her comments are perfectly on topic. If you expect to read agreeable comments, then a blog on NI politics is the wrong place to come.

    Freedom of speech is one of the things we are told that we are defending in the face of these attacks, let’s extend that right to heck.

    Fly on the wall said:

    For God’s sake, give pause and spare a thought (and spare a blog!) for those who died and were injured today

    What makes you think that heck doesn’t have compassion? If you just saw a hit and run car accident, would you refuse to look at and remember the number plate in order to concentrate all your mental energies on compassion? It is right and proper to discuss the reasons behind any tragedy.

    Also, I don’t think heck ever claimed to know what the victims or their families are thinking right know, he/she just said “if I was in their shoes”.

    If you disagree with heck’s suggestion that Tony Blair is at fault, then say so and argue your case strongly, but don’t assume he/she is evil or ignorant when you have no real evidence.

    I can’t think of any weaker arguments against somebody than:

    1. “Etiquette demands that you must not consider that question at this time.”
    2. “I disagree with your conclusions, therefore I’ll assume that you must have got your facts wrong. I can’t accept for one second that an educated person could possibly disagree with me.”
    3. I disagree with you, therefore you are uncompassionate.
  • TAFKABO

    “Etiquette demands that you must not consider that question at this time.”

    You may think that this is a sign of weakness, but I suspect you would be in the minority.

    You and Heck are perfectly entitled to make any arguments you wish, but you must also accept the rest of us for not wanting to engage in debate at this time.

    Just because you want to argue, doesn’t mean that we have to.

  • peteb

    “Freedom of speech is one of the things we are told that we are defending in the face of these attacks, let’s extend that right to heck.”

    It has been extended, Occasional.. and some would say over-extended.

    But heck isn’t putting forward an argument.. the Gallowayesque “I blame Blair” line is facile.

  • Occasional Commentator

    TAFKABO, I was about the finish my comment with “Don’t assume I agree with heck”, but I thought it unneccessary. Clearly I was wrong.

  • TAFKABO

    Whether you agreed with Heck or not was irrelevant to the point I was making.

  • 6countyprod

    heck

    The bees were stinging long before they were provoked by Bush or Blair. I was living in Africa at the time of the al qaeda bombings of American embassies in Africa. Clinton was president at the time. His failure to deal with bin laden (wasting opportunities to have him taken out – afraid of what people might think of him, I suppose) has played a big part in the our current problems.

    These fanatics cannot be reasoned with. They are on an anti-Israeli and an anti-Christian jihad, (and anti-everyone-who-doesn’t-agree-with-them).

    There is only one way to stop them, and it’s not the Clinton Method.

  • Occasional Commentator

    peteb,
    There are no end of facile arguments on Slugger about NI politics and the horrific events that have happened here. I feel a little wiser for reading all the facile, and not so facile, arguments from a wide spectrum of opinion of NI politics. Facile arguments are still arguments. heck played the ball, others did not.

    I just find it sad that it’s practically a crime to be wrong. Haven’t we all been wrong before? heck just asked a reasonable question and told us his/her answer.

    TAFKABO said:

    Just because you want to argue, doesn’t mean that we have to.

    I don’t particularly want to argue either. Anyway, we all have the choice to argue or not.

  • peteb

    Occasional

    No-one prevented you from reading heck’s facile argument.

  • 6countyprod

    While Saddam was completing his slaughter of 100’s of thousands of Shiites, Galloway says to Saddam: “I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability.

    Sorry, but I don’t pay a lot of attention to grisly George or his sychophants. What a warped sense of reality.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Those who support terrorist’s trying to overthrow the democratic wishes of a country given the right to elect the government of it’s choice deserve incarceration. When a country has the opportunity to freely decide via the electoral process who should govern it, those who seek to interfere in just process should be jailed as a threat to the democratic will of the people.

  • Occasional Commentator

    Intelligence Insider, are you referring to heck and/or myself?

  • tomasmaguire

    I truly abhor the deaths of innocents everywhere, anywhere I cant help but feel the Law of Physics best apply here;

    CAUSE-www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/06/314702.html

    EFFECT-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4663931.stm

    We all reap what we sow !!

    A very saddened Tomas

  • tomasmaguire

    I truly abhor the deaths of innocents everywhere, anywhere I cant help but feel the Law of Physics best apply here;

    CAUSE-www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/06/314702.html

    EFFECT-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4663931.stm

    We all reap what we sow !!

    A very saddened Tomas

  • 6countyprod

    Tomas, one incident was accidental, the other, purely intentional.

    I didn’t take the time to check out much of indymedia, but I was wondering if it gives the same photo coverage to the continuing, intentional, daily slaughter of Iraqis by Saddam’s henchmen and A-Q in Iraq. Probably not.

  • tomasmaguire

    Accidental 6countyprod? F16 fighter planes have some of the most sophisticated bombing and GPS technology in the world but yes i suppose they could have accidentally taken off from bases in Germany or Turkey or from one of the aircraft carriers in the gulf and accidentally flown over Iraq, accidentally acquired these villages as targets and then have accidentally dropped their very indiscriminate cluster bomb payloads over houses, schools and hospitals filled with civilians. Its quite plausible I suppose …

    Leaving aside your school yard what-a-bout-ery is not the common denominator in both sets of pictures trauma, pain and shock. Inevitably each of those experiences can turn to anger. With anger comes the possibility and the prospect of revenge, vengeance & retribution …

    Like I said we reap what we sow … and your impersonal ill-judged pseudo-moralising on one death over another merely perpetuates and condones a desperately tragic global catastrophe – man’s inhumanity to man !!!

  • tomasmaguire

    Just for you 6county prod

    CAUSE-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4663931.stm

    EFFECT-www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/06/314702.html

    and so on it goes

    Tomas

  • jocky

    Tomas, WTF are you talking about? can you please explain the link between the Iraq war and a jihad that started in the mid 90’s? The same jihadist who think nothing of killing Arabs, Muslims, Christians or whoever disagrees with their narrow world view.

    If it wssn’t the Iraq war there would be another reason trotted forward by the killers and their apoligists to somehow justify their actions and absolve themselves of responsibilty.

    They did it because they wanted to and because they could.

    To claim cause and effect is to remove the responsibilty of the attacks from the perperators who have sole repsonsibilty for the people who lost their lives yesterday.

  • DCB

    Jocky

    Very true, another excuse troted out is Palastine.

    This ignores the fact that in the 1980s the Suni jihidists were only too happy to back the US in Afghanistan. That little unholy alliance also damages their own cliams to moral authority.

    What did the Kenyan government do to deserve the embasy bombings?

    When looking for cause and motivation, why not actually read the pronouncements of Al Q’uida – they aren’t some sort of leftist/nationalist liberation demands – they want to establish a global caliphate.

    Madrid was after all also justified on the basis of recliaming land from the infidel.

    Yestruday won’t change anything – the provo’s did worse economically and they failed. So too will the suni militants. The best reaction – to ignore them.

    By doing it y’day it was also a delibrate attempt, IMO, to move the global agenda away from Africa and back to the middle east. I think we should spend more time focusing on Africa. With trade and focused aid we can actually do something. We can also help to create the sort of socities there so loathed by the fundementalists.

  • tomasmaguire

    Jocky

    In your almost hysteria, you totally miss my point.

    Aggression begets aggression. Violence begets violence. Leaving aside the moralising of who is right or wrong, such actions surely dehumanise us all? Somewhere, somehow there is cause and there is effect … and this simple law has contributed to the world a catastrophe much greater than the tsunami or the aids endemic or global poverty even. Can I invite you to read over this blog again look at the hatred and vitriol spouted by some of the commentators even those who might accost themselves with shroud of righteousness as calling for an eye for an eye, liquidate them etc …

    I ask you simply, why is Iraq, Kasmir, Afganistan and now London being bombed? Why is there a jihad? why is there a christain crusade? Why are we killing each other, why the hatred, why the distruction? What is the context Jocky?

    I completely agree the persons who placed those bombs are responsible for their actions, not the victims and not the british establishment. Yet as always, there is a context. Im suggesting that the context might be one of anger, revenge and retribution, one of asserting control and power over another. And Im suggesting that actions caused by the British establishment elsewhere on the globe (for example in Iraq) may have had the effect of a person or persons misplacing their anger in the form of an explosion on a London street. In turn, I guess Im also suggesting that a person with cause to place a bomb on a crowded bus may well have the effect of more british bombs being dropped elsewhere on the globe.

    I have no answers myself Jocky, Im merely thinking out loud on a clamy friday afternoon at work and reading this blog i dispair at human nature, the distructive force of it.

    Your viewpoint seems to me to be very pro- establishment ‘sunday school’ like and impossibily one sided and dare I say just as ‘narrow’ as the jihadists. And while that prevails as a discourse: While genuine communication between agressors (even blog aggressors) is absent then there will never be any answers, not here on this blog not in London and definately not in Iraq, Kasmir, Afganistan, zimbabie, Rowanda and sadly the North of Ireland ….

    “For the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the pain. Well young willie macbride it all happened again… and again and again and again and again”

    Tomas

  • Fly on the Wall

    Occasional Commentator:
    Let me clarify my position, if you will. While I don’t feel as strongly as Heck does re: vehemently hating Blair, I am very, very much against the ‘war’ in Iraq. It was bad enough that my government started the whole damn thing, but it got even worse when every American media outlet proudly announced the US would be deferring to the British government when carrying out house searches because ‘they did such a good job in Belfast.’ If ‘doing such a good job’ means prolonging an already bloody and horrible war in NI and having the next generation readily join the IRA, then I guess we (my government) was on track.

    But … I very strongly believe that there should be a 24-hour moratorium on such banter/arguments when such a tragedy as London happens. There’s plenty of time of finger pointing and ‘damn it, I knew this was going to happen’ later. But, if for only a day, can’t we all just concentrate on thinking of those who were killed or hurt and not about who is ultimately responsible for such a loss?

  • jocky

    Tomas, Thanks for the further explanation, far more expansive than “cause and effect”

    I dont miss your point, I just dont agree with it, just because acts of violence happen doesn’t mean they are related. The current AQ jihad started pre-Afghanistan, pre-Iraq. So where is the connection? That is my point. The Iraq is a smokescreen IMO.

    Whiel I agree with your sentiments re violence but there will always be malcontents who will use violence to advance their cause.

    What’s wrong with being pro-establishment? If the alternative is blowing people up then Im all for it. That doesn’t mean unconditional support it means you work within the existing frameworks or create new ones.

    Im all for discourse, but dont think it will achieve much in this situation.

  • tomasmaguire

    Thanks for the reply Jocky, to answer your question i refer you to your own wisdom

    What’s wrong with being pro-establishment?

    “there will always be malcontents who will use violence to advance their cause.”

    Ie The british establishment … amongst many others

    Tomas the malcontent 🙂

  • jocky

    Tomas, as soon as I had typed it I had a feeling that would be the response. At least if they are in the establishment they are visible and they can be dealt with. In theory anyway, it’s not perfect but it sure as hell beats the alternatives.

  • 6countyprod

    Tomas,

    …Aggression begets aggression.

    Absolutely correct! It all started in Medina in 622 when the prophet started his first war with the Jews and Christians, in the process of which he expelled two of the Jewish tribes and executed a third. Through violence and subjugation Islam spread until it had attacked France and conquered Spain.

    Bin laden is only trying to restore the glory days of Islam, and we are in his way.

    So, we have a choice, we either roll over, and let him take control, or we can resist. I go for the second option.

    …why is there a christain crusade?

    The world, (Christians, Jews, Hindus, moderate Muslims, etc, etc) is resisting an attempt by extreme islamists to dominate. It is not a crusade. That is too simplistic.

  • tomasmaguire

    Cheers jocky

    I dont know why really but it somehow feels more wrong when the ‘establishment’ does it …

    Particularily when they have lied and deceived the voters and undermined the democratic process to try to legitimise such horrific behaviour.

    Not that its relevant here for any of us in the North of Ireland who have no say ‘voting ways’ one way or the other in british foreign policy … we are simply under direct rule be we catholic, protestant or dissenter. We are all dis-infranchised and live in a democratic deficit … Let us determine our own future, is not that an alternative jocky?

  • jocky

    Tomas, I dont follow how people in NI have no say “voting ways” one way or the other? Oyu have the same voting ways as everyone else.

    Let us determine our future? at the end of the day we had the chance to get rid of blair and despite all the public demos of the anti-war lot he got back in. Hey at least where I live we got a Lib Dem in!!

    Admittedly there was a piss poor choice on offer, what can you do?

  • tomasmaguire

    Tomas, I don’t follow how people in NI have no say “voting ways” one way or the other? Oyu have the same voting ways as everyone else.

    People living in the north of Ireland have absolutely no say in voting for the political party which directly rules over us ie De Labour Partie.

    So Blair and his cabinet decree that war in Iraq is the way forward and no one from here, we the disenfranchised, can have a say either way. The British labour party do not stand in any elections here and for good reason. This is a democratic deficit, it is wrong, unjust and runs against the basic tenets of natural law … democratically speaking we live in a dictatorship worthy of the third world …

    You live over there albeit in Scotland(?) Jocky, you had a say, none of us here had a say …

    What can you do? Have a referendum on these islands with a vote for every single adult who has a stakehold on the issue of ireland and the british presence here. Let all the people decide not merely a small porportion of the north east of the north east of ireland.

    Failing that … save up for a Barrett .50 cal, go to the nearest high ground and change the world shot by shot …

    Tomas

  • Ray

    tomasmaguire said :
    “I have no answers myself Jocky, Im merely thinking out loud on a clamy friday afternoon at work and reading this blog i dispair at human nature, the distructive force of it.”

    Or, to describe it more accurately, what you’re doing is indulging in a bout of pious, pacifist-minded, rhetorical wanking.

  • tomasmaguire

    Ha ha thats just nasty Ray …

    You feel better having got that off your chest?

    Good, Good, glad to have helped and no points for guessing what your answer to it all might be 🙂

    Tomas

  • jocky

    Tomas, those are the breaks, used to live in Scotland, back in the days when we didn’t have single Tory MP, a democratic deficit of sorts, not as clear cut as in NI but in most cases the Tory would trail in 4th, to be fair we had a vote in 79 and decide to stay part of the union, D’oh!

    With a democracy the minority is always going to be disenfranchised. What differnce would NI have if you had Labour MP’s?

    Cant see why Bertie and Tony dont arrange a vote for you guys sometime.

    Living in Manchester now, that’s why I cant understand the nationalist mindset, (I consider myself scottish but nothing makes me cringe more than the tinpot scottish nationalist that defines scottish as hating the english) your going to be ruled by a bunch of corrupt, lieing, b’stards from either London or Dublin, and Brussels.