Not to worry.. the EU's paying..

EU Foreign Ministers have decided that official and working status is to be given to the Irish language by the European Union from 1st January 2007, making it the 21st official language of the EU. According to this RTE report, that means at ministerial level, provision will be made for Irish to be spoken at council meetings, requiring 20-30 translators.. and costing £3.5million €3.5million [D’oh!] each year.. Hmm.. so that’s what Maria, at Crooked Timber, means by “boondoggle”.. Dermot Ahern, among others, has welcomed today’s unanimous decision, and we’re also struck by FG’s response – “regardless of its status at EU level, preserving the language has to begin at home.” I’d also recommend the argument against this pork-barrel politics... Now.. when’s the referendum, Bertie? Update About EU has other reaction. Update again Back Seat Driver, Dick O’Brien, adds his thoughts

  • 6countyprod

    While I have no problem with Irish being recognised as an important language, especially for the few thousand who may speak it in the home as a first language, I am wondering, apart from being such a waste of money, and who will actually read these documents translated into Irish, is it not discrimination against the tens of millions of people in Europe who speak Chinese, Urdu, Hindi or Arabic, etc. as a first language? Should they too not have all the documents translated into their languages?

  • maca

    Willow
    “the language right to which you do refer … would be met by my very reasonable proposal that provision … can be made … by translating the documents on demand.”

    Your post makes no sense. How does that address the ‘language right’? Someone has the right to use & be dealt with in their own language and you want to give them mail order documents?

    Anyway the “documents on demand” suggestion is nonsense.

  • maca

    6cp
    “apart from being such a waste of money”
    in your opinion,,,

    “is it not discrimination against the tens of millions of people in Europe who speak Chinese, Urdu, Hindi or Arabic, etc. as a first language?”

    Just curious, how long have you been highlighting this discrimination? How many years have you been campaigning for language rights for these minorities?

  • willowfield

    maca

    Your post makes no sense.

    It does.

    How does that address the ‘language right’?

    By enabling people to read documents in Gaelic if that is their first language.

    Someone has the right to use & be dealt with in their own language and you want to give them mail order documents?

    I see nothing wrong with mailing them the documents. Emailing would be cheaper, though. And quicker.

    Anyway the “documents on demand” suggestion is nonsense.

    It’s not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.

  • maca

    Willow
    “By enabling people to read documents in Gaelic if that is their first language.”

    How does that address the language right? It doesn’t.

    “It’s not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.”

    It’s nonsense.

  • tattees

    Anyone know the ulster scots translation of ‘money laundering’

  • Valenciano

    It’s an expensive and pointless waste of money if the demand existed in the first place then they could simply translate the documents on demand as Willowfield suggests. However that demand doesn’t exist. The key is the comment from Oilbhéar Chromaill “So Willowfield’s solution is to translate documents on demand – now there’s a thought. You employ people to translate documents and they sit on their hands until someone asks them to translate something. That’s outside the box thinking alright.” If they would be sitting around on their arses because of lack of demand then why bother in the first place? Any event, that misses the point – totally unnecessary to have people employed full time on such a job anyway, you subcontract it out when necessary – of course you need the demand for English/Irish translation agencies in the first place for that.

    Why stop at Irish? Why not waste millions of taxpayers money translating documents into Turkish, Russian etc all of which have far more native speakers using the language on a daily basis than Irish. Catalan has 10 million speakers spread across 3 EU countries, shouldn’t it have its own team of translators too?

    If they were really serious about promoting the language then they would spend that money promoting the language at grassroots level. This should not only include the grammatical teaching etc but the cultural element. You can piss about as much as you want forcing people to learn languages at school but if those students subsequently solely use another language outside the classroom then its a wasted exercise. Instilling pride into people about the language, it’s historical roots and longetivity will always be a far better thing to do. Those people will then use the language, making it a living form with its own literature, cinema etc to be enjoyed (hence more reason for learning the language) and most crucially, people will pass the language on to their kids from birth.

    One thing that the Irish government should seriously consider is the creation of a new town in the Gaeltacht areas providing homes and jobs for upwards of 100000 people. As things stand, young people will leave the Gaeltacht areas in search of more lucrative work in Dublin or London where they will inevitably fall into speaking English with their peers.

  • maca

    Valenciano
    I don’t have time to answer your full post. You make some good points, but you also make the mistake, in my opinion, of focussing on just translating documents. There’s obviously much more too it that simply translating a few treaties here and there. Is it that people don’t want to see that there’s more to it? Or maybe focussing on the documents makes for an easy target ..?

  • Biffo

    Willowfield

    ..Why? I would imagine Father McKenzie was Irish. Or at least of Irish stock..”

    You can imagine all you like but it’s a Scottish name and a Gaelic speaking Father McKenzie is going to sound more Scottish than Irish to any interested, half-informed person.

    “..Please desist from making judgements about people based, not on what they say, but on your own sectarian prejudices..”

    I’ve based my judgement entirely on what you’ve said.

    I don’t have sectarian prejudices. If you’re saying I have, quote the offending comments.

    Out of interest do you also consider disgraceful the longstanding British government policy of spending money on transations of official literature into Welsh?

  • bootman

    Translating Irish will not be expensive, it will probably work out as one of the least expensive services provided by the EU. Anybody whose argument rests on the premise that this will be expensive is talking through their hole. It will not even constitute a drop in the ocean, maybe like a quarter of a drop or something.
    Opposing this maesure is pure bigotry, no crocodile tears for a relatively negligible amount of money can hide that.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Maca,

    “Why?? Irish is already in a better position that it would be if you just relied on the charter.
    How would reducing its status help at all?”

    From my post previous to the one from which you quote…

    “On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language’s longterm prospects.Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to.”

    And, remembering that from it’s inception Irish has been the first language of the RoI “officially”…

    “at the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.”

    Therefore, I’m arguing that official status may not necessarily be the “help” that the Irish language needs. I haven’t read one post from someone who has said “Fek, I must start learning Irish because of it’s new status in the EU.”
    The challenge for Irish language enthusiasts is how to gain new speakers. I don’t think this method will work…

  • Biffo

    “On balance, the overly enthusiastic promotion of Irish by the political and cultural elite from the 1920s did more harm than good to the language’s longterm prospects.Instead of winning over people to the concept that they could speak Irish, they attempted to follow a process of saying they must speak Irish. That created a backlash that made many people more determined than ever not to.”

    That’a not right. There was never enthusiastic promotion of irish, just “official status” lip service. It took til the 1970’s and a civil rights campaign for Raidió na Gaeltachta to be set up.

    “The challenge for Irish language enthusiasts is how to gain new speakers. I don’t think this method will work…”

    The challenge for irish language enthusiasts is to encourage irish speaking parents pass the language to their children. This isn’t a method, but at least they can say “Look, your language is recognised – be proud of it.”

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    First off I apologise if anyone read my comment to mean that the Irish language was crap. That wasn’t the point I was making, but I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads.

    “It means those who study Irish in school and do well can apply for EU jobs as it is taken as an official language. One of the criticisms is that you can’t get a well paid job, well now you can.”

    This was exactly one of my criticisms. The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills – as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!

    Does anyone really believe this is about the Irish government’s desire to enable their 20,000 fluent Irish speakers to read EU legislation? Had this been the case they could have easily been translating it themselves for years! It’s nothing more than an ego trip and is symptomatic of the waste and bureaucracy in the EU.

  • beano; EverythingUlster.com

    typo:

    but I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads is crap.

  • 6countyprod

    Maca

    I speak English, French and a minority language, fluently.

    The inclusion of Irish as a working language is political rather than practical. 800 million euro per annum is an awful lot of money for the EU to spend on translation.

    A French-speaking President recently stated that there are only two essential languages in the world today: English and the language of IT. Not to know them was like being illiterate.

    The EU should have one working language: English. It would save a fortune, and eliminate discrimination.

  • IJP

    I’ve stated before on this subject that you should be careful what you wish for.

    There is now no defence against giving Catalan, Chinese, Urdu etc full working-language status. On that basis 21 could soon become 60. And that is simply ridiculous when the name of the game is cooperation.

    It has been accepted that for free trade the EU needs common regulation. Many believe it needs a common currency. I think that moves like this only serve to make the case for a common language rather easier too.

    The outcome of Irish (and, more dubious still, Maltese) as a working language will be negative for speakers of all languages (including Irish and Maltese) except English.

  • Keith M

    IJP “and, more dubious still, Maltese”. Actually Maltese has a far stronger claim than Irish Gaelic given that almost everyone in Malta speaks it on a daily basis.

    I do however take your point. There should be some form of sanity clause, where a language must be the first lanuage of (for example) 10m European citizens before it gets official status.

  • Biffo

    IJP, 6countyprod, Beano, Willowfield

    In the light of your opinions on this issue how do you feel about the longstanding UK policy of spending money translating official government literature into Welsh?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Biffo,

    “That’a not right”

    The quote was from Wikipedia. Not my words, but an outside observer. Personally, I think their outside judgment is quite close to the truth.

    For example, Irish as the first language, compulsory at school, needed for civil service jobs, etc. I’d say that could be described as “overly enthusiastic promotion”.

  • maca

    CC
    “I’m arguing that official status may not necessarily be the “help” that the Irish language needs”

    Well on that I can agree. Personally, this issue is one of respect, demonstrating the the Irish language is just as important as any other EU language. It’s no magic solution for Irish, no one is claiming it is.

    6cp
    “The inclusion of Irish as a working language is political rather than practical.”

    A bit of both i’d say. Again, for me, the issue is one of respect.

    “800 million euro per annum is an awful lot of
    money for the EU to spend on translation.”

    It certainly is. But Irish is only 3.5m of this 800m and a fraction of what other countries spend on translation (46m).
    Personally I think there should be 1-3 working languages and each government pays their own translation costs after that. In this case Irish would still have equal status.

    “The EU should have one working language: English.”
    I don’t entirely disagree but you will have a shit load of pissed off Europeans on your hands if you propose that. 😉

    IJP
    “On that basis 21 could soon become 60. And that is simply ridiculous when the name of the game is cooperation.”

    yes, and it might force a rethink of the whole system which is what is needed. I’d be happy either wey because it would mean Irish being treated the same as every other language instead of the previously “lesser status”

  • maca

    CC
    “Irish as the first language”
    Symbolic, overly enthusiastic? No. Promtion? No.

    “compulsory at school”
    How is that overly enthusiastic?

    “needed for civil service jobs”
    Irish is NOT needed for civil service jobs. In fact I think you’re about 30 years behind the times on this one 😉

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Congal Clean posted: The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills – as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!

    For some one who claims he doesn’t think Irish is ‘crap’, what does the above post tell you about your sincerity and your respect for diversity?

    What it tells me is that you believe school is nothing nore than a factory for producing people with ‘skills’ not a place where people are educated about life and culture, the type of education that encourages people to take a more fuller role in life and not just a training which merely equips people to a much lesser and inferior extent to take part in the rat race.

    For your information learning Irish, as well as being part of a wider life enhancing education, equips people with skills which are more than useful. Learning Irish helps rather than hinders people who want to learn other languages – this is not a claim but scientific fact according to a University of London study – and, on top of that, there is an increasing market for Irish language skills, not just in translation but also in journalism, writing for TV, writing Children’s Books, multi media, internet and so on.

    I believe the process of wasting money spending money translating documents almost nobody reads into a language almost nobody reads.

    I’m all for less documents almost nobody reads. I think the EU should cut it’s paperwork by 99.99% and then cut it the same again. That would cut down more on the 800m euro budget than would cutting Irish out of the picture.

    Argung for a cut in EU paperwork doesn’t mean the same – or shouldn’t mean the same – as cutting out the number of languages in which the remaining essential paperwork is available in. The EU was supposed to be – at its inception – a coalition of equals working towards economic prosperity of all and so on – that’ still an admirable goal. It was never meant to be about devaluing each country’s culture for the sake of an all encompassing one union one culture policy.

    There are lots of problems with the EU as it stands. I myself am not for the EU Constitution and have found myself to be against every single EU treaty since – and including – Maastricht. But the Irish language should not be the fall guy in all of this.

    My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns – they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Maca,

    Also from Wikipedia…

    “The independent Irish state from 1922 launched a major push to promote the Irish language, with some of its leaders hoping that the state would become predominantly Irish-speaking within a generation. In fact, many of these initiatives, notably compulsory Irish at school and the requirement that one must know Irish to be employed in the civil service, proved counter-productive with generations of school-children alienated by what was often heavily-handed attempts at indoctrination, that created a cultural backlash.”

    My comment about the civil service should be read in this context.

    Although, I suspect we’ll just have to disagree…

  • maca

    CC
    Well it’s still not a requirement…

    Wikipedia is a useful source of ‘basic’ information, though in some cases the info is not so accurate.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi OC,

    “Congal Clean posted: The move was intended to create jobs for people with valueless skills – as well as make an unpopular government and an unpopular EU look good. If you want a well paid job, study something useful!
    For some one who claims he doesn’t think Irish is ‘crap’, what does the above post tell you about your sincerity and your respect for diversity?”

    Not guilty OC. I think you’re talking about someone else. Possibly Beano? Am I now a tout? Oh and, it’s Claen. Unless you know something about my personal hygiene?

    “My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns – they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

    I suspect you’ll retract the above when you realise you’ve got the wrong guy?

  • maca

    I should have read that more carefully. I see the point you make there, however is it worth noting that since the compulsory requirement was removed from entry to the civil service that Irish services have actually declined? Does that not counter their point above?

  • OIlbhéar Chromaill

    My apologies Congal.

    It was Beano – I should have known.

    But the substance of the post still stands in relation to him and his fellow travellers.

  • willowfield

    Maca

    How does that address the language right? It doesn’t.

    It does. And I already explained. See above.

    It’s nonsense.

    It’s not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.

    Biffo

    You can imagine all you like but it’s a Scottish name and a Gaelic speaking Father McKenzie is going to sound more Scottish than Irish to any interested, half-informed person.

    Not too many Scottish-Gaelic-speakers in Liverpool. Plenty of Irish, though.

    I’ve based my judgement entirely on what you’ve said.

    You haven’t. You’ve based it on sectarian prejudices.

    I don’t have sectarian prejudices. If you’re saying I have, quote the offending comments.

    I already did quote them (the clue is in the quoted passage directly above the comment to which you are responding). But let me repeat the comments: at 3.12pm on 14 June you said: “I can also see that, due to your political prejudices, you have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language”. That comment was based, not on anything I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices (i.e. the assumption that anyone who doesn’t refer to the Irish Gaelic language as “Irish”, does so because of “political prejudices”).

    Out of interest do you also consider disgraceful the longstanding British government policy of spending money on transations of official literature into Welsh?

    I don’t know enough about it. What kind of demand is there? How much does it cost?

    Bootman

    Translating Irish will not be expensive

    According to the blog, it will cost 3.5m euro annually.

    Opposing this maesure is pure bigotry, no crocodile tears for a relatively negligible amount of money can hide that.

    Dismissing reasonable and constructive points as “pure bigotry” is, ironically, bigotry.

    Olibhear Chromwaill

    My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns – they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

    You were asked before to stop making assumptions about what people say based on your own sectarian prejudices. Yet you continue. You were advised to respond to what people say, not to your own sectarian assumptions about what you think they are saying. Yet you fail to heed the advice. You were asked to be honest. Yet, above, you repeated a lie.

    If you are incapable of engaging honestly on Slugger, please don’t bother commenting.

  • willowfield

    OIlbhéar Chromaill

    But the substance of the post still stands in relation to him and his fellow travellers.

    It doesn’t.

    PLEASE DESIST FROM MAKING UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE.

  • Ringo

    willowfield

    PLEASE DESIST FROM MAKING UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE

    what about poor Fr. McKenzie?
    Check out the number of McKenzies in the phone book in
    Glasgow – the high hundreds if not thousands

    versus
    http://159.134.203.172/search_res.asp?initial=&surname=mckenzie&townres=&countyres=Dublin&SearchRes=Search&source=Eircom&ss=hp“>Dublin – 24

  • willowfield

    The cultural reference has completely by-passed you.

    Poor.

  • Ringo

    arsebiscuits.

    Dublin

  • Biffo

    Willowfield,

    “That comment was based, not on anything I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices (i.e. the assumption that anyone who doesn’t refer to the Irish Gaelic language as “Irish”, does so because of “political prejudices”).”

    Pleae retract your incredibly stupid (where have I alluded to your religion), insulting and blatantly groundless accusation.

    Here’s why I think you are prejudiced.

    You describe this issue of EU funding for translations of official literature into Irish as disgraceful, when that money could be better spent providing aid to Africa.

    Yet the UK has had a longstanding policy of providing funding for translations of official literature into Welsh, when that money could be spent on aid to Africa.

    If this was a genuine matter of concern you would have condemned the “disgraceful” situation in the UK long ago, as you have been giving your tuppence worth for a long time on slugger and this subject comes up so often.

    I have based my opinion on what you say and on what you fail to say in these posts. I judge you accordingly.

    Now what about the funding of translations of official literature into Welsh? Is it a disgrace, and if so, do you condemn it?

  • Ringo

    You mean Elanor?

  • willowfield

    FFS, Father McKenzie’s nationality is of absolutely no relevance.

    The cultural reference has obviously completely by-passed you.

    Poor.

  • Ringo

    Ah now Willowfield – those sort of things don’t pass me by. 😉

  • willowfield

    Biffo

    Pleae retract your incredibly stupid (where have I alluded to your religion), insulting and blatantly groundless accusation.

    I will not retract the observation that you made a comment based, not on anything that I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices (i.e. the assumption that anyone who doesn’t refer to the Irish Gaelic language as “Irish”, does so because of “political prejudices”). Why? Because it is a truthful observation. Your prejudices are sectarian because you assume something about me based on your perception that I come from the unionist community.

    Here’s why I think you are prejudiced. You describe this issue of EU funding for translations of official literature into Irish as disgraceful, when that money could be better spent providing aid to Africa. Yet the UK has had a longstanding policy of providing funding for translations of official literature into Welsh, when that money could be spent on aid to Africa.

    The fact that 3.5m euro will be wasted on translating EU documents that no-one will read into Gaelic in order to meet zero demand from Gaelic-speakers is not altered by reference to other money that may or may not be wasted elsewhere.

    If this was a genuine matter of concern you would have condemned the “disgraceful” situation in the UK long ago, as you have been giving your tuppence worth for a long time on slugger and this subject comes up so often.

    The subject of Welsh translations has never come up during my time on Slugger. As I have already pointed out to you, I am unaware of whether or not Welsh translations are “disgraceful”, so, even if the subject had arisen, I would not have been able to make such a comment, unless information had been provided, in which case I would have drawn a conclusion based on that information.

    I have based my opinion on what you say and on what you fail to say in these posts. I judge you accordingly.

    You and others have been advised to judge people on what they say, not on what your prejudices lead you to believe they might be saying. Unfortunately, judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices.

    I would urge you again to stick to commenting on what people say, and not to make judgements about them based on prejudice. If you take issue with what someone says, by all means, challenge the person; or if you suspect someone of something, ask them to clarify; but refrain from unfounded assumptions.

    Now what about the funding of translations of official literature into Welsh? Is it a disgrace, and if so, do you condemn it?

    All I can do is refer you back to my previous comment on the matter, and to my further comment above.

  • willowfield

    Didn’t think it would pass anyone by, Ringo! Hence my surprise.

  • Ringo

    The cultural reference has obviously completely by-passed you.

    Poor. 😉

  • Biffo

    Willowfield

    You still haven’t quoted any sectarian remarks I made, what the matter? having difficulty finding them? Of course you are, you are talking through your arse.

    Your comdemnation of Irish translation in this thread and your silence on the issue of Welsh translating services in the UK reeks of hypocracy, double standards, prejudice, ignorance,

    Oh, and by the way your are crap at sustaining any kind of argument

  • Alan2

    So when are Welsh, Cornish, Scots Gaelic and Scots/Ulster-Scots going to become official EU languages alongside dozens of other minority languages?

    No harm to the Irish language but is it not an expensive precendent? Surely other such languages are now entitled to the same rights in the council?
    Far better to put the money into the Irish language in Ireland than into translating a pile of legal documents.

  • ssr

    I speak Irish as my first language and (unfortunatly for me!) I often have to read documents regarding the EU as part of my University course. I feel more comfortable reading in Irish as it is more natural to me and so the info sinks in more easily. Therefore this initiative will benifit me, and others like me greatly. Although people like myself are seen as a minority and translation on demand is often suggested, this is not an option. I am often told to go home and read a certain document for the next day, and so a request for a translation is unlikely to be answered in time. Why should my learning be disadvantaged to save money?

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Willowfield posted:
    Olibhear Chromwaill

    My own view is that people such as Congal and Willowfield are using the EU as a stick to beat Irish because it suits their sectarian agendas. The well being of the EU is the least of their concerns – they just want to give the Irish and those who speak it a kicking.

    You were asked before to stop making assumptions about what people say based on your own sectarian prejudices. Yet you continue. You were advised to respond to what people say, not to your own sectarian assumptions about what you think they are saying. Yet you fail to heed the advice. You were asked to be honest. Yet, above, you repeated a lie.

    If you are incapable of engaging honestly on Slugger, please don’t bother commenting.

    Who made you captain of this ship? You can’t set the terms by which we comment here. You have repeatedly engaged in a sectarian tirade against Irish and when confronted with the evidence you have come up with the rubbish contained in your 12.45pm posting (not that any posting of yours is any more lucid or less offensive).

    This is typical of the crap we constantly get from unionist representatives.

    So engage with the arguments and deal with them. Or else witter away witlessly.

  • Baluba

    Go díreach, a ssr – but some people think you and I don’t have the right to read in our own language simply because we have more advanced language skills than them. And also, sadly, some people will believe 100% that you and I are lying when we say Irish is any easier for us to digest than English.

    I remember when I worked in an Irish Pub in Germany, in the British Sector, the soldiers talking about whay the stupid Germans insisted on speaking bloody German when they could already speak English. Monoglot lingo-centrism which is all too popular among English-speakers of the world.

    I also live between Australia and Ireland and the prevailing attitude (in my experience) in Australia is that English should be adopted as the language of South-East Asia even though it is incredibly outnumbered. It’s a superiority complex (and perhaps a bit of laziness).

  • Alan2

    “Why should my learning be disadvantaged to save money?”

    That is the crux of the matter. Why should other languages not receive the same then? The cost would be horrendous and the paperwork would be unreal and to do what? The minority languages are exactlt that and usually the speakers are 100% fluent in another language. By all means pour money into regional minority laguage projects in their own areas where the languages are spoken but I feel the EU should confine its business to the main languages saving money and also time.

    The EU is already a bloated unefficient heaven for lawyers, translators and porky politicians.

    Spend it on the health service or an Irish language school.

  • Ringo

    Alan2/Baluba –

    I don’t believe a word of ssr (isn’t that short strand resident?) post.

    I feel more comfortable reading in Irish as it is more natural to me and so the info sinks in more easily.

    complete nonsense.

  • Baluba

    Good man yourself Ringo! Prove my suspicions to be true – the cynicism and mistrust of some knows no bounds.

    Fear gan mhuinín, fear gan chara.

  • ssr

    méanfach – should I be suprised with such a response from ringo?

    ringo, do you speak another language? If you do, undoubtedly you find it easier to read in your first language (presumably english)?

    I was simply highlighting that the demand for translations is there, albeit a small one. what a small minded way to look at my post – náireach!

    (And yes, the ssr is short strand resident. I shortened it a few weeks ago for convenience and because a number of posters were refering to me as ssr)

  • Ringo

    Inis dom Baluba, cén áit a bhfuil SSR (an fhíor-gaelgóir) ina gcónaí? I lár Béal Feirste?
    Agus tú féin mar in gceanna?

    Níl ollscoil ar bith ins na Gaeltachtaí. Ceann saighas céim atá sé a dheanabh? Níl duine ar bith ann anois atá ábalta paipeirí teichnuil ón Eorap a léamh i nGaeilge, gan bearla a léamh agus a labhairt chomh maith. (Tá sé soileir go bhfuil sé deachair go lóir le haigh SSR phostáil i mBearla, ach dar liomsa, níl sé mar gheall ar an Gaeilge)

    Má tá dearmad déanta agam, bheidh sibh in ann mo Gaeilge garbh a cheartú.

    Seafóid.

  • Baluba

    Ní bheadh barúil dá laghad agam cá háit a bhfuil ssr ina chónaí. Tá mé féin i mo chónaí ar Bhóthar na bhFál in Iarthar Bhéal Feirste.

    Tá Ollscoileanna i nGaillimh agus i nGaoth Dobhair.

    Is cinnte gur féidir liomsa na caipéisí a léamh. Ní dhéarfainn go dtuigfinn gach focal (ag brath ar an ábhar) ach thiocfadh liom an rud ceannainn céanna a rá faoin Bhéarla más rud teicniúil atá ann.

    Tá cead ag cainteoirí dúchais cónaí áit ar bith ar an oileán seo, an bhfuil a fhios agat sin?

    Níl mórán lochta ar do chuid Ghaeilge, a chara, ba cheart duit í a úsáid go rialta agus tiocfaidh sí ar ais chugat go grámhar.

    Seans go bhfuil ‘seafóid’ ina theachtaireacht. Cá bhfios? Níl ganntanas céille áfach lena bhfuil á rá aige ach oiread.

    Má tá tú ag rá go mbeinnse níos ábalta caipéisí an AE a léamh as Béarla, tá tú contráilte. Is féidir leat glacadh le mo fhocal nó neamhaird a dhéanamh de, is cuma sa tsioc liomsa.

  • aonghus

    Scríobh Ringo:
    Níl ollscoil ar bith ins na Gaeltachtaí

    Níl sé sin cruinn. Tá cuideanna de Ollscoil na Gaillimhe i nGaeltacht Chonamara, mar shampla. Tá an Crannóg an i nGaoth Dobhair, (http://www.crannog.ie). Tá an Díseart sa Daingean, ….

    Pé scéal é, nach cuma cá háit atá SSR ar an Ollscoil – cen bhaint atá aige sin leis an teanga inár féidir agus gur fearr leis léamh?

    Tá Gaeilge, Gearmáinís agus Béarla agam – ach is fearr liom rudaí airithe a léamh i dteanga airithe. Chuir mé fíos, dala an scéil, ar an mBunreacht Eorpach as gaeilge ar mhaithe len é a léamh – má bhíonn reifreann againn anseo ó dheas.

    Tá an-ghreann le baint as.

  • 6countyprod

    I hope some of the monitors speak Irish, and can give us a good translation of the previous posts, …upaid, of course.

  • 6countyprod

    read: …unpaid, of course!

  • Man Farang

    Baluba
    “The prevailing attitude in Australia is that English should be adopted as the language of S.E.Asia”
    We have already got Singlish we don’t need Strine!

  • maca

    Willow
    “It does. And I already explained. See above.”
    It doesn’t, and obviously you have zero understanding of the issue.

    “It’s not nonsense. On the contrary, it is reasonable and sensible.”
    it’s nonsense.

    Alan2
    “So when are Welsh, Cornish, Scots Gaelic and Scots/Ulster-Scots going to become official EU languages alongside dozens of other minority languages?”

    That’s up to you in the UK isn’t it? Those are not even official languages in your state, that might be the best place to start.

    “Why should other languages not receive the same then?”

    This was a question I asked before Irish was made a working language. ‘Why can’t Irish receive the same?’ It was a “lesser language”. All languages should be treated equally IMO.
    Obviously this is unmanageable and as you say “the cost would be horrendous and the paperwork would be unreal”. A rethink of the system is needed. People have a right to receive services in their own language, but the cost/work should be borne by each government for it’s own language. IMO.

    “usually the speakers are 100% fluent in another language.”

    Most Europeans can speak English so why not have anything only in English? Would that be fair?

    6cp
    “I hope some of the monitors speak Irish, and can give us a good translation of the previous posts”

    It’s nothing you need be concerned about. 😉

    MF
    “We have already got Singlish we don’t need Strine!”

    Can leh.
    Cool language, lah!

  • willowfield

    Biffo

    You still haven’t quoted any sectarian remarks I made

    Why would I do that? I never claimed you made any sectarian remarks. I stated that you made a comment based, not on what I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices. If you read my post made at 1.48pm, instead of ignoring it, you will find an explanation.

    Your comdemnation of Irish translation in this thread and your silence on the issue of Welsh translating services in the UK reeks of hypocracy [sic], double standards, prejudice, ignorance,

    Please read what I say. It is all explained for you. I have said nothing that could be construed as hypocrisy, double standards, prejudice or ignorance.

    Again, I must ask you to desist from making sectarian assumptions. Respond to what I say, not to what your prejudices lead you to believe what I say.

    If you cannot do this, then there’s no point in you engaging in discussions with me or anyone else.

    Oh, and by the way your are crap at sustaining any kind of argument

    Really? If that is true, you will be able to tell me what argument have i failed to sustain.

    Olibhear Cromwell

    Who made you captain of this ship? You can’t set the terms by which we comment here.

    I can make observations and give advice.

    You have repeatedly engaged in a sectarian tirade against Irish

    STOP LYING. If you do not desist from lying, you will be ignored.

    and when confronted with the evidence you have come up with the rubbish contained in your 12.45pm posting (not that any posting of yours is any more lucid or less offensive).

    What evidence? Evidence of what? And what “rubbish”? If I posted rubbish, presumably you would be able to explain why you think it is rubbish. Yet you don’t.

    This is typical of the crap we constantly get from unionist representatives.

    More irrelevant sectarian prejudice.

    So engage with the arguments and deal with them. Or else witter away witlessly.

    I have been engaging with the arguments. You, on the other hand, have been ignoring what people say and, instead, basing your comments on sectarian prejudices.

  • Biffo

    Willowfield

    ” I stated that you made a comment based, not on what I said, but on your own sectarian prejudices

    Once again, show me where I made any reference to your religion.

    “Please read what I say. It is all explained for you. I have said nothing that could be construed as hypocrisy, double standards, prejudice or ignorance.”

    I have already explained that what you have said and what you have failed to say is what i have commented on and it would reveal to any fair-minded and reasonable person (like myself) that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

    I’ll spell it out again. You have condemned as a disgrace and a scandal the fact that the EU is spending money translating official literature into Irish rather than spending it on providing clean drinking water in Africa.

    However you have nothing to say about the fact that the UK has, for many years, been spending money translating official literature into Welsh rather than providing clean drinking water in Africa.

    It’s a well known fact, they’ve been doing it openly for years. I know about it, everybody knows about it and you’ve definately known about it at least since yesterday. Yet what words of condemnation do I hear from you? Not a one

    I can therefore deduce that you don’t have a problem with anybody spending money on translating into a language in principle. But you object when that language happens to be Irish.

    It’s conclusive proof that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

    “Again, I must ask you to desist from making sectarian assumptions. Respond to what I say, not to what your prejudices lead you to believe what I say.”

    Again where did I mention anybody’s religion?

    “Really? If that is true, you will be able to tell me what argument have i failed to sustain.”

    That you are not prejudiced against the Irish.

  • Biffo

    ..against the Irish language.

  • IJP

    Maca

    it might force a rethink of the whole system which is what is needed. I’d be happy either wey because it would mean Irish being treated the same as every other language instead of the previously “lesser status”

    Very good point.

    Keith M

    Actually Maltese has a far stronger claim than Irish Gaelic given that almost everyone in Malta speaks it on a daily basis.

    I think the claim is similar, but that’s really my point – if you start playing numbers, Catalan’s through the door before Danish, never mind Irish!

    Biffo

    In what way does what I’ve written come even close to Willowfield’s, Beano’s or 6countyprod’s expressed views? I trust you are not turning this into another case of ‘black’ versus ‘write’.

    I’ll state clearly what I stated before: those of us who want to hear Irish in Castle Court should be a little concerned about its status as an EU working language, because in practice this may merely serve to relegate it in terms of actual use (as well as deflecting attention away from the need to promote the language in communities, not least those currently speaking the language where the new generation is not).

    With respect, your equivalence to Welsh is potatoes and eggs. Giving Irish working language status makes it very difficult to reject Welsh, since it is more widely spoken and is a parallel language of a clearly defined, devolved EU region. And that is the crux of my point – how long can the list go on?

    Please take each view given on Slugger as the individual’s, not the ‘perceived groups’. To do the latter is prejudice (literally).

  • Ringo

    Aonghus/Baluba

    Fair play duit Baluba – is feidir leatsa ‘walk the walk’ mar a dearfá, ach fós níl freaga ar bith ó SSR, agus beidhmar ag fanacht go dtí go mbeidh amigo flúirseach no foclóir níos fearr aige lá eigeann eile.

    Níl ganntanas céille áfach lena bhfuil á rá aige ach oiread.

    B’fheidir nach bhfuil an uair seo, ach is minic atá rudaí a bhfad nios measa le rá aige, faoin ainm SSR nó ceann eile – níl ann ach phleice.

    Tá cuideanna de Ollscoil na Gaillimhe i
    nGaeltacht Chonamara

    Ceart go lóir, is cuimhin liom anois- thíos i gCarna. Ní raibh fíos agam faoin ceann in Dún na
    nGall. Ní creidim go bhfuil sé a dhéanamh céim ina bhfuil ar téacs ón Eorap le léamh, in ollscoil, in aon áit.

    Má tá tú ag rá go mbeinnse níos ábalta caipéisí an AE a léamh as Béarla, tá tú contráilte. Is féidir leat glacadh le mo fhocal nó neamhaird a dhéanamh de, is cuma sa tsioc liomsa.

    gabh mo leithsceal, ach fós, ní feidir liom é sinn a chreidint. Cad tá cearr le do Bhéarla?
    An bhfuil tú cosuil le Paudi O Sé – mar a duirt Ger Power ‘Paudi speaking English is like a chimpazee juggling a ming vase’.

  • Biffo

    IJP

    Apologies for lumping you in with Willowfield Beano and 6countyprod. From your commenting history on this site you generally rate high in my estimation (but not always).

    What did bug me earlier was your “The outcome of Irish (and, more dubious still, Maltese) as a working language ..”

    I don’t think there is anything dubious about irish or maltese being a working language. I fully support them. Likwise Welsh, Catalan, even Ulster Scots (when they finish inventing it:). There are a finite number of languages so your concern about “where will it end..” suggests that you feel you can draw the line at which languages can be used. Why, it’s perfectly valid to use them all if anybody speaks them. What’s the European Charter on Minority Languages for anyway?

    It costs money – so what? It costs money to translate into English, most of the 450+ million people in the EU don’t speak English. Only 65 odd million speak it as their native language, less than German. Take your argument to it’s logical conclusion German should be the only language used, English being a waste of money.

    I can understand people getting worked up about the cost of the common agricultural policy. But the cost of the EU simply translating and printing material in another European language – what’s the big deal? The fact is that it already happens domestically in the UK and nobody complains.

  • Biffo

    Willowfield, I missed one of your earlier contributions. I’ll deal with it now.

    “The fact that 3.5m euro will be wasted on translating EU documents that no-one will read into Gaelic in order to meet zero demand from Gaelic-speakers is not altered by reference to other money that may or may not be wasted elsewhere”

    How do you know? Show me a verifiable source for your claim that there will be zero demand.

    You said about Irish – “What a scandalous waste of public money on gesture politics. Disgraceful”

    Later you said..

    “I am unaware of whether or not Welsh translations are “disgraceful”, so, even if the subject had arisen, I would not have been able to make such a comment, unless information had been provided, in which case I would have drawn a conclusion based on that information.”

    Therefore, when the EU spends money translating official literature into Irish it’s “scandalous” and a “disgrace”.

    But when the UK spends money translating official literature into Welsh, you can’t comment. It’s conclusive, irrefutable proof that you are prejudiced towards Irish because the nature of the activity is exactly the same, only the language is different.

    “Unfortunately, judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices.”

    The topic for discussion is funding for the translation of official literature into a minority language, you are talking through your arse yet again.

    “Not too many Scottish-Gaelic-speakers in Liverpool…”

    Do you mean here “Not too many Scottish people who speak Irish in liverpool..”?

    Or maybe “”Not too many Scottish people who speak Manx in liverpool..”?

  • ssr

    Ringo,

    Go mó leithsceal, ní feidir liom freagra a thabhairt duit anois, tá mé ag deanamh homework. Tá me ag leamh paipeirí teichnuil ón Eorap, beidh scrudú ann amarach, Cá bhfuil those translators?

  • willowfield

    Biffo

    Once again, show me where I made any reference to your religion.

    Why or how would I do that?

    I have already explained that what you have said and what you have failed to say is what i have commented on and it would reveal to any fair-minded and reasonable person (like myself) that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

    You have explained nothing of the sort. Show me where you have explained how what I have said would reveal “prejudice towards the Irish language”.

    As for what I have failed to say, it has already been pointed out to you that judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices.

    I would ask you to desist from judging someone in such an ignorant way.

    If you wish to know my views on a subject, all you have to do is ask. Making sectarian assumptions is unnecessary, as well as unfortunate and out-of-order.

    I’ll spell it out again. You have condemned as a disgrace and a scandal the fact that the EU is spending money translating official literature into Irish rather than spending it on providing clean drinking water in Africa. However you have nothing to say about the fact that the UK has, for many years, been spending money translating official literature into Welsh rather than providing clean drinking water in Africa.

    I already advised you, at 12.45pm today, that I don’t know enough about it to comment. I then asked you for some information (What kind of demand is there? How much does it cost?) in order to enable me to comment. You failed to provide such information, therefore I remain unable to comment.

    If you want to provide the information, I will certainly offer you my views on whether or not I think spending the money on it is a waste.

    It’s a well known fact, they’ve been doing it openly for years. I know about it, everybody knows about it and you’ve definately [sic] known about it at least since yesterday.

    We know they do it, but what we don’t know are the two pertinent facts: how much it costs and what the demand is. Since you fail to provide these, it is not possible to make a judgement on whether or not the spending is wasteful.

    Yet what words of condemnation do I hear from you? Not a one

    Why would I condemn something about which I do not know the pertinent facts? You may be in the habit of such prejudiced judgements. I reserve judgements until I have sufficient knowledge to make them.

    I can therefore deduce that you don’t have a problem with anybody spending money on translating into a language in principle.

    Certainly I have no problem about translating languages in principle!

    But you object when that language happens to be Irish.

    I would ask you to stop lying. I have never said such a thing, and I do not believe such a thing.

    It’s conclusive proof that you are prejudiced towards the Irish language.

    It’s conclusive proof of nothing.

    Again where did I mention anybody’s religion?

    I’m unaware of you mentioning anybody’s religion. Why do you ask?

    “Really? If that is true, you will be able to tell me what argument have i failed to sustain. … That you are not prejudiced against the Irish.

    It is not up to me to sustain such an argument. It is up to you to make the argument that I am “prejudiced against the Irish”. It’s your argument: the onus is on you to prove it.

    “The fact that 3.5m euro will be wasted on translating EU documents that no-one will read into Gaelic in order to meet zero demand from Gaelic-speakers is not altered by reference to other money that may or may not be wasted elsewhere” … How do you know?

    Er, it’s basic logic. A and B are independent premises. A has no bearing on B.

    Show me a verifiable source for your claim that there will be zero demand.

    It is logically not possible to prove that there will be zero demand: one cannot prove a negative. The onus is on those claiming that there will be demand, to demonstrate it. Can you demonstrate it?

    Common sense says there will be little or no demand, since (a) very few people read Gaelic as a first language; and (b) EU documents are not exactly best sellers.

    You said about Irish – “What a scandalous waste of public money on gesture politics. Disgraceful”

    You would do well to try to retain accuracy. I said that about the decision to spend 3.5m euro on translating EU documents into Gaelic.

    Therefore, when the EU spends money translating official literature into Irish it’s “scandalous” and a “disgrace”.

    That doesn’t follow at all. First, I have never claimed that translating official literature into Gaelic was “scandalous” and a “disgrace”. On the contrary, I have put forward a proposal that documents should be translated on demand.

    Second, it does not follow that because one doesn’t know whether or not translating UK government documents into Welsh is scandalous, that translating EU documents into Gaelic must therefore be scandalous. There is no logic there whatsoever.

    But when the UK spends money translating official literature into Welsh, you can’t comment.

    I can’t comment on whether or not the money is wasted without the necessary information. Of course not.

    It’s conclusive, irrefutable proof that you are prejudiced towards Irish because the nature of the activity is exactly the same, only the language is different.

    It’s proof of nothing. The “nature of the activity” is not at issue! The issue is the wasting of resources.

    “Unfortunately, judging someone because they haven’t commented on a subject that isn’t under discussion, has never been under discussion, and hasn’t even been raised, is no better than judging them on your prejudices.”

    The topic for discussion is funding for the translation of official literature into a minority language

    No. It’s much more specific than that: it’s this particular decision to fund translations for which there is no demand.

    , you are talking through your arse yet again.

    I am not. Nor have I been. Judging from the above, it would seem that you have.

    “Not too many Scottish-Gaelic-speakers in Liverpool…” Do you mean here “Not too many Scottish people who speak Irish in liverpool..”?
    Or maybe “”Not too many Scottish people who speak Manx in liverpool..”?

    Sorry, none of the above makes sense. You obviously missed the cultural reference!

    Now that we’ve got all of that out of the way, would you care actually to discuss the issue in hand? Why don’t you tell us why it makes sense to spend 3.5m euro translating documents into Gaelic, most of which will never be read, when it would be possible to translate them on demand at much reduced cost?

  • Biffo

    Willowfield

    I’ve already dealt conclusively with all the repeat comments and questions you raised there,

    I’d advise you to go back and read my stuff again, don’t worry take your time, do it as many times as you like, takes notes if you want.

  • Biffo

    Willowfield,

    You say one thing and later on you deny that you said it and all I have to do is scroll up to see it.

    You’ve given me a chuckle! Do actually you believe anything you post on slugger?

  • Biffo

    Moderator,

    You deleted the comment previous to the last one. Maybe it sounded bad, or maybe you have no sense of humour, it was meant to be a friendly jibe. Surely you can tolerate a bit of slegging?

    Anyway, Willowfield, in case you didn’t get a chance to read it. I was saying I did bother to read your entire spiel, thanks for taking the time, but It’s just one long mostly meaningless ramble, you enjoy chasing your tail.

  • Biffo

    Moderator

    I also note that you didn’t delete any of Willowfields comments where he repeatedly accuses me of sectarianism, yet nowhere do I make any reference to his perceived community background, his religious convictions, or his broader political opinions – all of which I have no interest in.

    [ed. Mod]

  • hotdogx

    In my opinion all the states of europe have a right to have their spoken languages recognised in europe. I think this will help the language, north and south. The language is part of our identity and if it wasn’t for the british we’d still be speaking it today! Fortunately alot of people still speak the language. I myself am able to converse using the basics in irish although im a better speaker than a writer. Unionists deamonise the language as it is often spoken by sf members. They have to realise many irish people speak irish not just SF!

    An gaelige na h-eireann agus an copobal europach
    go maith!

  • maca

    WIllow, i’d be interested in your answer re:Welsh (or Socts for that matter). Truth is you/we know as much facts about that as Irish so there’s nothing stopping you commenting on it. If the Welsh go for the slimmed-down status like Irish or Maltese it will cost €3.5 million. If the Welsh want the same as other Euro languages it will cost up to €46 million. None of us know the real “facts” about demand, all we can do is guestimate.

  • maca

    Socts = should have been Gaelic (Gd), brain frizzle…

  • Baluba

    A Ringo, a chara,

    Níl caill ar bith ar mo chuid Béarla (agus labharaim Gearmainis fosta gan mórán stró), ach nuair atá téamaí casta i gceist, is as Gaeilge a thig liom iad a bhriseadh síos níos fusa.

    (Gabh mo leithscéal as gan freagra a thabhairt duit inné ach bhí duine ag feitheamh orm ar pháirc imeartha le greadadh millteanach a thabhairt dom – mothaím inniú orm é.)

  • Baluba

    Those who keep repeating that there is ‘zero demand’ for this unanimous move by the EU have forgotten that if it was asked for in the first place, there’s demand uimhir a haon (#1), and did you all miss the thousands of people marching and sending in petitions (all political parties in the South and the two nationalist parties in the North included) endorsing it through the ‘Stádas’ campaign?

    There is demand and if I may make a wild, sweeping, make up my own statistics, piece of conjecture as many others are wont to do on this site, I’d say that the vast majority of people in the 26 think it is a good idea and 99.999% of nationalists in the 6 do too.

    Do I have any proof of that? No, but it seems that often you don’t need it on this site. Call it a gut feeling, anecdotal evidence, common sense….

  • aonghus

    6countyprod wrote

    I hope some of the monitors speak Irish, and can give us a good translation of the previous posts, …unpaid, of course

    (Irony warning)

    Why the concern about something written in a dead language which there is zero demand to read?

  • willowfield

    Biffo

    I’ve already dealt conclusively with all the repeat comments and questions you raised there,

    You haven’t dealt conclusively with anything. All you’ve done is make assumptions based on prejudice, rather than dealing with what I actually say.

    I’d advise you to go back and read my stuff again, don’t worry take your time, do it as many times as you like, takes notes if you want.

    Certainly. In what you have said you have made the following assumptions, none of which I have said, and none of which is true. All the assumptions are based on your own prejudices. If you actually bothered to ask me my views on any of them, rather than make assumptions, you would realise that everything you have said is wrong.

    1. You said (June 14, 2005 03:12 PM) that due my “political prejudices”, I “have a problem using the word Irish to describe the language”. That is untrue.

    2. You said (June 14, 2005 03:26 PM) that I had a “a problem with using the word “Irish””. Again, this is untrue.

    3. You said (June 15, 2005 08:58 PM) that I only object to spending money on translating “when that language happens to be Irish”. This is untrue.

    4. You said (June 15, 2005 08:58 PM) that I was “prejudiced towards the Irish language”. This is untrue.

    There were no grounds for any of these assumptions. They arose from your own sectarian prejudice (i.e. you assumed that a perceived unionist who criticised anything to do with the Gaelic language must be prejudiced against the language).

    Even when you were advised that these assumptions were not true, you continued with them. So – in the face of denial, and still without any evidence – you persisted with your sectarian prejudice.

    At no point did you even attempt to find out my views about the Gaelic language, or about the provision of translations generally. So you deliberately avoided gathering information that would have better informed your views of me: you preferred to stick with your sectarian prejudice.

    You also engaged in dishonesty by attempting to characterise my opposition to the funding of permanent translators at a cost of 3.5m euro annually as opposition to translation of Gaelic per se (even though I had explicitly proposed that Gaelic translations be provided on demand).

    And you used this dishonest misrepresentation as a means to explain your accusation that I was prejudiced.

    Then you raised the translation of UK documents into Welsh, without providing the pertinent facts that would enable one to draw a comparison with the Gaelic translations in the EU, thus making it impossible to comment. Then, even though it was impossible to comment, you claimed that my inability to comment reeked of “hypocracy [sic], double standards, prejudice, ignorance”.

    The above is a sorry summary of your participation in the thread, made worse by your deliberate refusal actually to engage in the issue itself. You still have not engaged with the point that the 3.5m euro is a waste and that the same objective could be achieved much more cheaply by providing translations on demand.

    You say one thing and later on you deny that you said it and all I have to do is scroll up to see it.

    I have never said one thing and then denied that I said it. Stop lying. You’ve been asked before not to lie, yet you continue to do so. If it were true that I had denied saying something that I had previously said, you would be able to demonstrate it: you cannot do so.

    This is another piece of dishonesty to add to the list.

    maca

    WIllow, i’d be interested in your answer re:Welsh (or Socts for that matter).

    I’ve already explained (twice, I think), that I can’t give an answer without being apprised of the pertinent facts.

    Truth is you/we know as much facts about that as Irish so there’s nothing stopping you commenting on it.

    That is not the truth. I know more about Gaelic translations in the EU, because this blog tells us that it will cost 3.5m euro annually. I don’t know how much it costs to translate UK documents into Welsh.

    Baluba

    Those who keep repeating that there is ‘zero demand’ for this unanimous move by the EU have forgotten that if it was asked for in the first place, there’s demand uimhir a haon (#1), and did you all miss the thousands of people marching and sending in petitions (all political parties in the South and the two nationalist parties in the North included) endorsing it through the ‘Stádas’ campaign?

    All that proves is that there is demand for the translation service to be provided (i.e. for the political gesture to be made). It does not prove that anyone will actually use it.

    There is demand and if I may make a wild, sweeping, make up my own statistics, piece of conjecture as many others are wont to do on this site, I’d say that the vast majority of people in the 26 think it is a good idea and 99.999% of nationalists in the 6 do too.

    People thinking “it is a good idea” is not the same as demand for reading EU documents in Gaelic.

  • aonghus

    The demand is there.

    many people in the 26 countries assert their right to court hearings (civil or criminal)in Irish. Most EU legislation becomes national legislation, so having the translations is a benefit to the state.

    Furthermore, it is of benefit that native or fluent speakers of Irish can use that fact as part of qualifying for any job in the EU. The minimum requirements for even entry level jobs is fluency in two official languages, and three for any real job.

    Translating documents is only part of the story.

    In the Gaeltacht areas in particular, which are dominated by fishing, agriculture and tourism, EU influence is pervasive. Having access to the primary legislation affecting their lives in the language they are most comfortable with will definitely benefit people there.

    BTW, all EU treaties since 1973 were already available in Irish.

    I have a copy of the constitutional treaty in Irish on my desk.

  • maca

    Willow
    “I’ve already explained (twice, I think), that I can’t give an answer without being apprised of the pertinent facts.”

    You also don’t know the “facts” about Irish, because you claimed there was no demand and were proved wrong. Yet you still offer an opinion on Irish.

    “I don’t know how much it costs to translate UK documents into Welsh.”

    I just told you. It’ll cost much the same as any other language.

  • willowfield

    maca

    You also don’t know the “facts” about Irish, because you claimed there was no demand and were proved wrong.

    Er, when was I “proved wrong”?? No-one has offered any evidence of a level of demand for Gaelic translations of EU documents that merits the spending of 3.5m euro. Personally, I don’t believe the numbers of people wishing to read such documents is barely likely to reach double figures.

    I just told you. It’ll cost much the same as any other language.

    It costs 3.5m euro a year? How do you know. Personally, I don’t believe that. If it does then, certainly, that is also a disgrace.

  • Biffo

    Willowfield

    “.. if you suspect someone of something, ask them to clarify; but refrain from unfounded assumptions.”

    I suspect you of being unwilling, or unable to engage in any kind of interesting debate, the only point you ever really make, in so many words, is “stop lying”. It just gets boring after a while.

    No need to clarify, btw.

  • willowfield

    Biffo

    You have yet to make any kind of valuable contribution to the debate, save for ad hominem comments. Making sectarian assumptions, telling lies, and insulting people are sorry excuses for engagement.

    the only point you ever really make, in so many words, is “stop lying”

    Another lie. If you read my posts, you will see that the point I have been making is that the annual 3.5m euro is a waste and that the same objective could be met by translating on demand.

    You, on the other hand, have made no point. You’ve just engaged in unfounded personal abuse based on sectarian assumptions. But if you ever decide actually to discuss the issue at hand, you will find me more than receptive. Until then, goodbye.

  • maca

    Willow
    “Er, when was I “proved wrong”??”

    You claimed, as fact, that there was zero demand. It was shown above that there is demand. Whether it is 1 person, 1 hundred or 1 thousand is irrelevnt, you were wrong.

    “It costs 3.5m euro a year? How do you know.”

    It is safe to assume Welsh will cost approx the same as any other language. So it’s probably at least €3.5 million for the ‘slimmed down’ version.

    “Personally, I don’t believe that.”

    Why? What’s hard to believe about it? Why would it be cheaper than any other language?

    “If it does then, certainly, that is also a disgrace”

    Finally! So you think spending such money on Welsh is also a waste of money. You could have said that earlier to save time arguing.

  • maca

    “you will see that the point I have been making is that the annual 3.5m euro is a waste and that the same objective could be met by translating on demand.”

    How much of that is just for translating documents? And how much is for interpretors for those who might speak Irish there? (4 of the 16 MEP’s are Irish speakers)
    Is it just the translation of documents you have the issue with or do you think everyone should be forced to speak English there?

  • willowfield

    maca

    You claimed, as fact, that there was zero demand. It was shown above that there is demand. Whether it is 1 person, 1 hundred or 1 thousand is irrelevnt, you were wrong.

    Whatever. I think you are capable of realising that “zero demand” is a figure of speech meaning “next-to-no-demand”, in much the same way as you would say “nobody wears grey slip-ons anymore”, when we know that some people do.

    It is safe to assume Welsh will cost approx the same as any other language.

    How’s that?

    Why? What’s hard to believe about it? Why would it be cheaper than any other language?

    It’s hard to believe because it is an excessive amount. It wouldn’t be cheaper than “any other language”, but I expect it’s cheaper than the proposed EU arrangements.

    Finally! So you think spending such money on Welsh is also a waste of money.

    STOP LYING.

    F*ck off, maca. I’ve had enough of these deliberately unfair and offensive remarks and assumptions.

    You could have said that earlier to save time arguing.

    F*ck off. If all you want to do is to deliberately misrepresent people, then I refuse to engage with you.

  • willowfield

    Apologies for allowing my anger to get the better of me above, but I am fed up with people deliberately misrepresenting me.

  • maca

    Willow
    “It’s hard to believe because it is an excessive amount. It wouldn’t be cheaper than “any other language”, but I expect it’s cheaper than the proposed EU arrangements.”

    The other languages cost €46 million. I’m going with the slimmed down cost of €3.5m which seems quite reasonable compared to the other languages.

    “STOP LYING.F*ck off, maca. I’ve had enough of these deliberately unfair and offensive remarks and assumptions.”

    Relax willow, i’m not trying to offend you. I was responding to your point that “If it does [cost €3.5m per year] then, certainly, that is also a disgrace”, which to me meant that you think it’s also a waste of money. Or what exactly did you mean by “a disgrace”?

  • willowfield

    maca

    The other languages cost €46 million.

    … in the EU. There is demand for the other languages. But 46m also seems excessive.

    Relax willow, i’m not trying to offend you. I was responding to your point that “If it does [cost €3.5m per year] then, certainly, that is also a disgrace”, which to me meant that you think it’s also a waste of money. Or what exactly did you mean by “a disgrace”?

    If it costs 3.5m, then it would be a disgrace. I am speaking conditionally: stop altering the meaning of what I say.

    And I do not think, and have never said, that spending money on Welsh, or Irish Gaelic, or any other language is a disgrace: my comments have related solely to this particular situation under discussion.

    I am fed up with the sectarian-inspired abuse and misrepresentation from Biffo and Olibher Chromwaill, and when you seemed to be joining in, I lost my cool. I apologise again.

    Posted by: maca at June 17

  • maca

    Willow
    “If it costs 3.5m, then it would be a disgrace. I am speaking conditionally: stop altering the meaning of what I say.”

    I am not trying to alter what you say. Welsh WOULD cost as much as €3.5m (it’s a fair assumption) and I was just trying to see where you stood on that issue.

    “my comments have related solely to this particular situation under discussion.”

    I know, that’s exactly what I am addressing. You think it’s a waste spending this money on Irish in the EU and I just want to see if that also applies to Welsh?
    It’s fair to assume they cost about the same. Welsh demand is probably a bit more but in both cases the demand is still quite low.

    No need for apologies Willow. I think this strand of the discussion has run full course anyway.

  • willowfield

    I am not trying to alter what you say. Welsh WOULD cost as much as €3.5m (it’s a fair assumption) and I was just trying to see where you stood on that issue.

    How is it a fair assumption? Allowing for a gross salary of 50 euro, 3.5m represents 70 people! There’s no way 70 people are employed translating government documents into Welsh!

  • maca

    Willow
    You might have to redo your maths. Irish will require 20-30 people, does that mean their gross salary is 117K-175K? Much of this €3.5m must go elsewhere.

    Regarding the actual number of people required … when the new states joined the EU and added these new official languages I read that each new language required 110 translators & 40 interpreters …

    To answer your question I am just assuming that Welsh would have similar requirements to Irish, similar number of translators etc. I don’t see why Welsh would require/cost even less.

  • Ringo

    3.5m represents 70 people!

    Don’t know whether this makes it better or worse – but the figure I heard is 30 people

    I’d find it hard to believe there weren’t 30 people involved in translation documents into Welsh

  • Biffo

    Willowfield

    “Another lie…”.

    Once again, boring and repetitive, and further evidence that you are unwilling, or unable, to engage in any kind of interesting debate.

    There is a touch of Mr Vibrating about your style, normally I’d find that engaging. But in your case the absence of intelligence and wit makes it tedious.

  • willowfield

    When you lie, don’t complain when it’s pointed out.

    You have contributed nothing of value to this thread. You have not expressed an opinion. You have not engaged with an argument. All you have done is make assumptions based on sectarian prejudice, tell lies and engage in personal abuse.

    You STILL haven’t even attempted to respond to my alternative proposal for enabling Gaelic speakers to read EU documents.

    The debate is there for you to join if you wish. If not, don’t sully the thread with your abuse and dishonesty.

  • david

    well said,biffo

  • vespasian

    Now if the UK left the EU, then this argument would become irrelevant.

    It is just another example of wasting money in the EU, which will in the end collapse due to its own bureaucracy and self importance not to mention having discredited leaders like Chirac supporting it.

    I don’t care which languages they use in the EU I just want out of it.

  • barnshee

    What about spending the money on:-
    1 Teaching the the republic to speak English- anywhere outside Dublin 4 is an incoherent babble. I have just returned from Limerick where the language barrier was great than in the week previous in France.

    2 Investing in speech therapy/training to prevent Barbie de Brun from sounding like the man who offers me a “saler cote for the drive sor”

    (Try to match the levels of lasnguage with the Armani)

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    if Barnshee speaks as badly as he writes, there’s no wonder that there’s a language barrier between himself between the good people of Limerick.

  • barnshee

    Olibhear

    Can speak
    English (native )
    French & German (Degree 2.1)
    Spanish (not bad -no formal quals)
    Can order food and drink successfully in Italian

    However I had considerable difficulty in deconstructing the responses in Stab City, they however had no problem understanding my (modest) requests

    Typing however not so good !!

    What part of my post is unclear -perhaps I can elucidate?

  • aonghus

    Willowfield wrote
    You [Biffo] STILL haven’t even attempted to respond to my alternative proposal for enabling Gaelic speakers to read EU documents.

    The proposal was for on demand translation.

    However, if I need a document (legislation) tomorrow and ask for it today, which is likely to happen in, say a court case:

    If it has to be translated on demand, first of all a translator has to be found. Good translators in any language are hard to find, and therefore busy. It will take 2-3 weeks to find the translator, several days to get the legislation translated, and several weeks more to have it approved.
    That effectively denies me the translation.

    Also, if the EU has a translation staff, they will build up over time a vocabulary to deal with the recurring elements (of which there are many in legislation), and the overall qulaity of documents will be better. In the context of Irish language legislation being prevailing in the 26 counties, this is important – conflicting translations of similar passages would cause an expensive field day for the lawyers….

    I think Willowfields suggestion would be more costly in the long term.

  • aonghus

    BTW, there are 50 people employed by the Welsh Office Translation Unit

    http://www.wales.gov.uk/organipo/content/pgfa/proc-c19-e.htm

    And they have to contract out work…