Finucane: impossible Alice in Wonderland situation

Judge Cory has complained that the British government’s handling of his recommended inquiry into state collusion in the killing of Pat Finucane, calling it an impossible Alice in Wonderland situation. Indeed, the Taoiseach is to raise it with President Bush. Thanks to reader Paddy for the heads up!

  • PaddyCanuck

    It my be early days for this thread, but it seems that only Sinn Fein bashing threads illict response from non republican posters.

    Many of those posters often refer to the rule of law. This case begs the question what rule of law?

    The police and security services are able to collude in murder, cover up murder, and the British government to this day continues to obstruct the pursuit of justice.

    The peace process is not a run way street, and the republicans are not the only ones with deliverables outstanding.

  • Jimmy Sands

    I replied to this on the other thread. This has only been up five minutes.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Yes Jimmy, and you used the issue to put a kick in at Sinn Fein. Surprise, surprise.

  • Davros

    Tit-for-Tat Posting required now ? Is our international observer going to post his stats on who posts enough acceptable (to him ) posts and who doesn’t ?

    Finucane is old hat. Pre Cessation. Let’s move on.

  • aquifer

    If there are matters about informers within loyalism and perhaps also within republicanism to be discussed there could be a legitimate concern that they should not be discussed in full view of people dedicated to subverting the state, if only to protect informants.

    If the enquiry must at least in parts be secret, an appropriate way to handle this could be to make the enquiry a multinational one with a majority of non-british representatives.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Old hat Davros,

    Not to the nationalist community. How can you call on nationalists to support a police force, that directed and colluded in murder, and continues to obtruct justice in this case.

    The obstruction of this inquiry, is clear evidence that the influence of securocrats takes precedence over the rights of Nationalists.

    The case also clearly illustrates the duplicity of the British government when condemning republicans over the murder of Robert McCartney.

  • Davros

    Not to the nationalist community

    Not to activists in the nationalist community possibly. Trouble-makers and bar-stool plastics ? Definitely.

  • Jimmy Sands

    Paddy,

    The fact that the only think you saw in my post was a “kick at sinn fein” speaks volumes. You could try dealing with the point.

  • aquifer

    1989 was some time before 1998, and a lot of bad stuff was done before then and essentially forgiven. -aren’t the Irish a generous bunch.

    How about a bit of transparency about IRA intelligence operations. “Killing Rage” by Eamon Collins (Granta) gave an account that was good enough to have him butchered with a knife by the ‘RA. Any other accurate stuff in the public domain?

    Or are we better not knowing how sordid the business of setting people up for murder was, how much trust and everyday civility was abused?

  • ShayPaul

    Cory makes a clear judicial point. The enquiry proposed by the British governent is not worth consideration. Alice in wonderland stuff indeed, however the great defendants of strong reactions to despicable murders are somehow silent and dismissive of the learned judges remarks.

    All murder is reprehensible, state murder even more so, it attacks the fibre of society and eliminates any legitimacy the state and its security forces can pretend to. This spirals society into the abyss .

    True democrats will see the sense in the judges remarks, hypocrits will find any number of reasons for passing on.

  • Jimmy Sands

    SP,

    This really is a dialogue of the deaf. Who do you claim is dismissing the judge’s remarks?

  • Davros

    All murder is reprehensible, state murder even more so

    By your logic Shaypaul as the IRA claimed to be the legitimate holders of Irish Statehood, I assume you’ll agree that SF and the IRA should come clean about what they consider to have been “state” killings – such as what happened to Jean McConville, Joanne Mathers and Bernard Teggart or slaughter at La Mon and Claudy – and you will doubtless call on any senior SF members involved in those atrocities to explain their crimes ?

    If they aren’t comfortable with something as egalitarian as that, possibly an explanation of republican “state” killings of Lawyers and Judges will follow ? Or is it only Green Lawyersand their families whose lives count ?

  • Liam

    Davros, firstly you refer to the Pat Finucane case is ‘old hat’ but then bring up your favourite ‘older’ incidents!?

    The word ‘hypocrisy’ springs suddenly to mind!

  • PaddyCanuck

    “Tit-for-Tat Posting required now?”

    You seem to be the prime culprit Davros.

  • Davros

    Liam – I mentioned the older incidents to show that the Hypocrisy lies with those using Finucane to try and obscure the issues raised by SF’s cover-up after the McCartney murder…. Elitism it seems rules OK within your ranks … It’s ok to slaughter ordinary people, but not the green elite….

    So P-C – will you share your notes on who is daring go against the long-distance agendum you promote ?

  • GavBelfast

    Why are some republican posters not missing a trick to make still-more political capital out of this awful killing and Pat Finucane’s family’s sorrow and quest for juistice?

  • Roger W. Christ XVII

    “Not to the nationalist community. How can you call on nationalists to support a police force, that directed and colluded in murder, and continues to obtruct justice in this case.”

    For the same reason I expect unionists to share power with nationalists. We have to ensure the mistakes of the past are not made again, and then put it behind us.

  • fair_deal

    Paddy Canuck

    “How can you call on nationalists to support a police force, that directed and colluded in murder, and continues to obtruct justice in this case.”

    Compare and Contrast

    Finucane

    1. The RUC no longer exists. It was replaced and subject to 175 changes.
    2. A special investigative unit was created on this case and the present Chief Constable played a key role in it. A significantly much more thorough investigation than many other victims have received
    3. This unit led to a successful prosecution of one of the murderers. Is that not justice?
    4. A public inquiry has been agreed to.

    McCartney
    1. The IRA still exists.
    2. Vital evidence was systematically destroyed.
    3. The IRA and Sinn Fein are engaged in an ongoing cover-up.

    It does raise the broader issue of how to deal with the past. I’m of the view you investigate it all or you investigate nothing.

  • Jimmy Sands

    I don’t see why justice for either family should be regarded as dependent on the other. Both families have been treated shamefully. I’d like to see yellow cards handed out for whataboutery.

  • Cthulhu

    fair_deal says:

    4. A public inquiry has been agreed to.”

    No, its not justice, not by half. First of all, your so-called “public inquiry” is going to have much of the evidence supressed by the Crown, lest the depths of British involvement prove too embaressing… Despite previous promises from the NIO that the process would be transparent, the British have decided that much of the evidence will have to be “considered in private” per the BBC, today. In all likelihood, it means that the “public inquiry” is headed straight down the Rabbit Hole faster than you can scream “orf wi’ her head.” THAT is not justice.

  • PaddyCanuck

    Fair_Deal

    “The RUC no longer exists. It was replaced and subject to 175 changes.”

    So what, they changed their name and lost their overtime, the colluders are still in place, and the SB are unreconstructed, their political intervention is proof that the PSNI is a very close cousin of the RUC.

    “A special investigative unit was created on this case and the present Chief Constable played a key role in it. A significantly much more thorough investigation than many other victims have received”

    The evidence of collusion has been concealed and no action has been taken against colluders.

    “This unit led to a successful prosecution of one of the murderers. Is that not justice?”

    A bit player was prosecuted, those directing him remain free, and active in the PSNI, and other bodies. Collusion went to the highest level, justice will only be done when this is revealed.

    “A public inquiry has been agreed to”

    The agreement on a public inquiry has been delayed, and then reneged on, Judge Cory describes what is now proposed as a sham (you should read his comments, it is what this thread is about.)

  • mnob

    The very first point in this thread is accurate.

    However Paddy the question should be does a lack of response indicate acceptance of the situation ?

    I for one want to see an open and honest inquiry, but didn’t feel motivated to immediately jump on the thread. Usually people jump on threads when it is something they disagree with.

  • fair_deal

    Paddy Canuck

    A murderer is a bit player in a murder? Fuzzy logic as a Queen’s spokesperson once said.

    The final legislation on the inquiry has not been passed yet so the argument is still an hypothethical. A public inquiry has been announced its nature is what is being debated. I expect Jodge Cory and the Bloody Sunday Inquiry judge’s intervention will have some impact.

    I’d appreciate your explanation on why are the Finucane’s entitled to more special treatment that other victims in the Troubles?

    Why is selectivity a good way of dealing with the past?

  • ShayPaul

    Congressman calls on Tony Blair to abandon plans for a new law on public inquiries.

    State murder needs to be addressed otherwise the NI statelet looses what is left of its legitimacy.