Cois Locha

The Irish News today carries a story that Newry and Mourne councillors have voted to name a new block of flats Cois Locha, which translates as Waterside, despite being informed that to so do would be breaking the law.
As it stands the flats should be named in English and an Irish sign can subsequently be erected if a majority of residents wish to do so.

Sinn F

  • maca

    Nice name but the law is the law. Why such a law exists though is puzzling, it’s only a block of flats after all.

  • Davros

    I must admit I agree Maca. A compromise was suggested – to initially name the flats the anglicised “Cush Loca” and then once formalities complied with change it to Cois Locha but this was rejected.

    According to the paper this comes under the Miscellaneous Provisions Order 1992. I can see no reason why that shouldn’t be changed so that new names can be tri-lingual (nods to Lord Lurid and Stephen Warke ) from the start.

  • OilbhΓ©ar Chromaill

    test

  • smcgiff

    ‘Cois Locha’

    This would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    Who say’s a names has to make sense anyway? Is there a law against calling a block of flats ABC123 or X=MC2? Or is it against the law because it makes sense in Irish.

    I can actually see why Cush Loca would be an insult. This has been the cause of various Irish (and other nationalities) names being bastardised when

  • maca

    Smcgiff: Well Cush Loca is horrible but I see little problem with Cois Locha, not exactly a new name (Ionad Cois Locha in Donegal).

  • smcgiff

    Apologies, Maca,

    I put Davros’ words in your mouth!

  • Davros

    Don’t blame me for “Cush Loca” mate πŸ™‚
    I’m only passing on what it says in the newspaper for those who don’t have a copy!

  • Davros

    Owen Kelly Column Irish News

    Thought for the Day

  • maca

    Blame Davros, it’s all his fault πŸ˜‰

  • smcgiff

  • Davros

    This is one of my favourite snippets Smcgiff:)

    In what other ways have the Irish excelled? It is not too much to say that there is a genuine concern for intellectual matters at almost all levels of society. And I would regard a certain brand of cruel wit as typically Irish. I quote two examples. First, a County Antrim man’s verdict on a certain professional Irishman: ‘He’s the dacentest man you ever wanted to stick a graip intil.’ Go back nearly five centuries and you have the delightful apology of the Earl of Kildare

  • Kevin Mc Kinney

    I find it interesting that Cois Locha translates to Waterside. Think its time the “Waterside” in Derry had a name change and “Cois Locha” would be ideal.

  • smcgiff

    Nice one, Davros. Especially the one about the Bishop.

    Not sure about NI, but begrudgers is certainly a common enough trait down here. But it’s been leeched out of us as time goes by.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Think its time the “Waterside” in Derry had a name change and “Cois Locha” would be ideal.’

    Hopefully I can beat Willowfield to a response, before I go to lunch – No.

  • slackjaw

    Here’s a thought.

    Waterside would be a crap name for a block of flats, because it’s not particularly original.

    Is its translation into Irish any less crap? If so, why? Because Irish is less crap than English? Would that not be contrary to the GFA?

    Or is the councillors’ line ‘any oul crap at all, as long as it’s as gaeilge’?

  • George

    Is Cois Locha not lakeside?
    Certainly not parity of esteem if you can’t name an estate in the Irish language. That’s unbelievable. Must be against the GFA that one. If not, we need to renegotiate!

    I know down south that since 2000 new estates have to have a name that references the area. No more Tiffany Downs for us I’m afraid but Cherry Grove and the like still go (as long as there was a cherry grove there once).

    So considering these block of flats are being built in Ireland and I assume near water, then Cois Locha is fine even if it is a little on the dull side. Still better than Tiffany Downs though.

    Anyway, there’s a Lakeside Drive in Belfast so there is a precedent for dull street names in Northern Ireland.

  • maca

    “Is its translation into Irish any less crap?”

    Can’t it be equally crap? Why does it have to be less or more crap?
    Though surely the name in any language other than English would sound a touch more “exotic”? πŸ˜‰

  • slackjaw

    Can’t it be equally crap?

    It is equally crap. My point is, we don’t need any more crap names in English, so why the need to fight for the right to have crap names in Irish?

    Though surely the name in any language other than English would sound a touch more “exotic”? πŸ˜‰

    Not to the councillors of Newry and Mourne, gaelgeoiri to a man, I’m sure πŸ˜‰

  • Butterknife

    Well lets face it, are protestants likely to live in the Waterside flats anyway? *ducks*

  • maca

    “It is equally crap. My point is, we don’t need any more crap names in English, so why the need to fight for the right to have crap names in Irish?”

    Because the majourity of people won’t know it is crap πŸ˜‰

  • Davros

    George , you are missing the point here.

    The point isn’t about whether or not a council should be able to name flats in Irish ….This raises a more important issue. Can we break laws we think are “counter the GFA” ? If the desire to name the flats in Irish is the goal, there is a mechanism in place.

    As pointed out by Dominic Bradley the mechanism can be changed legally.

  • George

    Davros,
    my view is that if something runs contrary to the GFA such as this current law which apparently bans Irish place names, it should automatically be changed.

    The mechanism for naming a block of flats in Irish should be the same as that for naming a block in English. That is what I understand by parity of esteem in this instance.

    This doesn’t appear to be the case. If the British government can pass separate legislation to make this possible then it should do so immediately. It’s absolutely ridiculous that somebody can’t name a block of flats in Irish.

  • idunnomeself

    How is it ‘counter the GFA’? anyone know how?

    This law pre dates the GFA, presumably the GFA would either effectivel repeal it, or fit in with it?

    I think that’s a red herring?

  • Davros

    I disagree George and you are side-stepping the issue. If I choose to interpret anything as being against the GFA, then you are saying that I should be free to break that Law ?

    seperate issue …by wanting to name a block of flats ONLY in Irish it is just as easily argued that The Councillors are acting against the GFA.

    Now George –
    5. All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes, and the need in particular in creating the new institutions to ensure that such symbols and emblems are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division.

    That’s the council acting against the GFA for starters. Where’s the Mutual respect in doing something divisive ?

  • George

    Davros,
    “If I choose to interpret anything as being against the GFA, then you are saying that I should be free to break that Law ?”

    No but like holding a border poll now when it’s obvious there will be no change, not allowing an Irish name is against the spirit of the GFA. The law should be altered.

    “seperate issue …by wanting to name a block of flats ONLY in Irish it is just as easily argued that The Councillors are acting against the GFA.”

    My understanding of the GFA is that Irish culture now has parity of esteem with British culture in Northern Ireland so an Irish name for a block of flats should be accepted as just that – a name.
    If there was mutual respect, nobody would give a damn if it was in Irish or English. If somebody finds Cois Locha a divisive name for a block of flats, they need their head examined.
    I don’t like Tiffany Downs or The Cotswalds but I don’t find them divisive just a bit twee.
    Norhtern Irish people are going to have to accept that there are Irish developers too.

    Obviously it would be easier if we had dual signage for all addresses but that’s a mutual respect step too far.

  • maca

    “by wanting to name a block of flats ONLY in Irish it is just as easily argued that The Councillors are acting against the GFA.”

    I have to disagree also Davros. How many flats are named ONLY in English? Even if the flats were allowed an Irish AND English name it still doesn’t seem fair. It’s shouldn’t really be an issue what language the name is in.

    “Where’s the Mutual respect in doing something divisive ?” I agree with you. Question is will every such attempt to name something as Gaeilge be seen as divisive?

  • idunnomeself

    OK, what language is ‘Belfast’?

    The original legislation allows Irish versions of placenames to be used, with the consent of their residents.

    I can’t see how this could be seen as ‘oppressing Irish Culture’ or something, it was, at the time, deliberately drafted to encourage the Irish language. The issue here is if a name can be given in *only* Irish, and the law says no.

    The GFA has nothing to do with it, and the reality is that the Irish language is not depoliticised yet.

  • maca

    IDM
    nice to see you around again.

    “The issue here is if a name can be given in *only* Irish, and the law says no”

    Whatever about the GFA don’t you think that the above situation is unfair? Is it right in this day and age that any language is banned in such a way, especially a minority language which needs protection?

  • Congal Claen

    “by wanting to name a block of flats ONLY in Irish it is just as easily argued that The Councillors are acting against the GFA.”

    I agree. Considering both communities understand English whereas largely only the Nationalist community understand Irish it is not parity of esteem to use just Irish.

    To take an analogy…
    Suppose you have a public building with steps and a ramp outside it to gain access. Obviously, both able bodied and disabled people can use the building. If you only had a ramp both could still use the building. However, only steps, means only the able bodied can gain access and is clearly discriminatory. Similarly, if the flats are named in Irish and English both communities understand. If only English is used again both communities understand. However, only Irish, only the Nationalist (largely) understand and it is clear discrimination for political purposes…

  • maca

    CG – what’s to understand? It’s a name and doesn’t need to be understood. It would be called Cush Loch in both English and Irish.
    And your analogy? Please! πŸ˜‰

  • maca

    …oops, thinking in English. “Cois Locha”

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Maca,

    “It’s a name and doesn’t need to be understood”

    Yeah Maca, like red, white and blue or green , white and orange kerbstones are just kerbstones. You know rightly it’s all about marking out territory.

    “And your analogy? Please! ;)”

    You’re only after reading it. I compared the Irish language being used in a discriminatory way to discrimination against the disabled through access to buildings.

  • Davros

    George.
    “not allowing an Irish name is against the spirit of the GFA.”

    Irish names are allowed.

    “The law should be altered.”

    Agreed – does that justify breaking the law when there are mechanisms in place through which it can be changed ?

    “If somebody finds Cois Locha a divisive name for a block of flats, they need their head examined.”

    You have your head in the sand George.
    Like it or not the REALITY is that the Irish Language is politicised. If A unionist council wanted to give an Ulster-scots name – exagerrated for the sake of illuistration and argument ‘Guid Mon Lennie Murphy Hoose” to new apartments then I would join nationalists in saying it was divisive, political and designed to be sectarian in that what Catholoic would want to live in somewhere named after a Sectarian Butcher ? Just as It would be viewed as unacceptable and discriminatory for a new Factory to be festooned with orange memorabilia and job application forms to be sent that were covered in Orange symbolism.

    “Irish Developers”

    Smacks of the reversal of the bad old days George where accomodation was built for Prods and for Catholics . Do you see this developement as being FOR IRISH SPEAKERS ONLY ?

    Simple question… what % of Irish speakers have NO English ?

  • Davros

    Whatever about the GFA don’t you think that the above situation is unfair? Is it right in this day and age that any language is banned in such a way, especially a minority language which needs protection?

    Maca , you are missing an important point.
    English, in real terms, excludes nobody.
    Irish in real terms DOES exclude people.

    Now , once the flats are filled and once the residents SAY they want the flats be renamed , then they can … which seems fair to me. There is no exclusion involved at that stage.

    It would be VERY different if we had two populations , 50 % having English and no Irish plus 50% having Irish but no English.

  • Davros

    “Is it right in this day and age that any language is banned in such a way, especially a minority language which needs protection?”

    Maca -It’s not banned.

  • smcgiff

    ‘FOR IRISH SPEAKERS ONLY?’

    *throws in malicious comment* It’s the case in some Gaeltacht areas down south!!

    With that said, this is the mother of all stupid arguments. Place names should be in double Dutch is so desired.

    The double standards on this issue are sadly very telling. The argument that the signs are not understood by some people is a hopeless point. Do you think your lives will be anymore enriched by knowing the building is called Waterside? Puuuuleeeease!!!

  • Congal Claen

    Hi smcgiff,

    How do red, white and blue kerbstones make you feel?

  • maca

    CG “You know rightly it’s all about marking out territory.”

    I disagree. What you’re basically saying is that like the kerbstones or flags it should never be allowed?

    I understood your analogy, no need to explain it. I don’t think an Irish name “discriminates” against anyone. Just like “Belfast” which came from Irish, no-one needs to understand what it means, it just is Belfast.

    Davros:
    “You are missing an important point.”

    No, I see that point Davros. I just don’t understand how a name (which does not need to be translated or understood) is discriminatory. Like the Belfast example above, although it’s an English name it came from Irish and does have a meaning so surely the English translation should be used?

    “It’s not banned”
    The law bans Irish only names does it not? Or have I misunderstood?

  • slackjaw

    Davros makes some important points although I disagree with his assertion that Irish excludes people. You can’t blame the language for the actions of those who try to make political capital out of it.

    Regrettably, the Irish language is politicised in Northern Ireland. And it’s only politicised further by needlessly going against existing laws to put crap Irish names to apartment blocks.

    Those who truly want the Irish language to flourish would do well to promote it in an inclusive manner. New voices and new perspectives strengthen a language. If the language is perceived as confined to one section of the community in Northern Ireland, this will only quicken its death.

  • Davros

    Place names should be in double Dutch is so desired.

    So where’s your problem ? How can anybody tell what the future residents want until they are asked ? Unless , as it might appear, that naming the building in Irish ONLY is a way of saying Only Irish Speakers welcome ?

    I’m all in favour of bilingual or even tri-lingual
    naming , but this is about more than that.

    There’s a legal framework . These councillors want to be able to break the law rather than use the procedures that WOULD if a majority of residents wanted it, have the flats named in Irish …
    Are they scared that residents WOULDN’T vote for an Exclusively Irish Name ?

  • Davros

    I think you have misunderstood Maca. I think irish only names are allowed if locals want them ,. although the spirit of the GFA should, IMO, allow and in fact I would support Promote BiLingual names.

  • Davros

    I disagree with his assertion that Irish excludes people.

    Slackjaw, it shouldn’t but it does. That’s the reality and it’s linked to the politicisation of the language issue.

    It’s much the same as People on my side who say that Orange symbolism, or even the Union flag, doesn’t exclude nationalists. They shouldn’t , but they DO

  • Davros

    ‘FOR IRISH SPEAKERS ONLY?’

    *throws in malicious comment* It’s the case in some Gaeltacht areas down south!!

    Look at the problems and resentments that has caused among Irish speakers as well as non-Irish speakers in the 26 counties.

  • slackjaw

    Wrong.

    The Irish language does not belong to anyone any more than English does.

    Orange symbolism and the Union flag both ‘belong’ to people.

  • smcgiff

    Hi Congal Claen,

    ‘How do red, white and blue kerbstones make you feel?’

    About as welcome as seeing green, white and orange kerb stones. But I’m a snob! :o)

  • Davros

    “Wrong.

    The Irish language does not belong to anyone any more than English does.

    Orange symbolism and the Union flag both ‘belong’ to people.”

    Like it or not, Most people in my community regard Irish as “belonging to the Other side” – especially as it has been used politically.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Like it or not, Most people in my community regard Irish as “belonging to the Other side” – especially as it has been used politically.’

    Using that logic then English belongs (although used – clever nationalists! :0) ) by your community!

  • maca

    Warning – General Pissed Off Rant:

    Whatever ye want to call your buildings is none of my business I just think it is extremely unfair that a simple feckin building can’t even have an Irish name (without there being a translation available).
    It’s hardly a lot to ask.
    How many thousands of TOWN names in Ireland are either English based (bridge, hill, ford), anglicised (pick a name) or direct translations (Riverstown)? And ye have problems with a building name.

    Davros:
    “I think irish only names are allowed if locals want them ,. although the spirit of the GFA should, IMO, allow and in fact I would support Promote BiLingual names.”

    To be honest I still find that unfair.
    We are allowed to go beyond the GFA, it doesn’t set all the rules, we can be more open and generous. Personally i’d be happy to see Ulster-Scots (only) names as it would add a bit of character and culture to that place.

    Slackjaw:
    “And it’s only politicised further by needlessly going against existing laws to put crap Irish names to apartment blocks.”

    It’s also politicised further by the existence of such laws restricting it’s use.

    “If the language is perceived as confined to one section of the community in Northern Ireland, this will only quicken its death.”

    The onus is also on protestants in NI to show they have a claim on the language too. Especially considering how much they did for the language in the past.

  • smcgiff

    This time in English…

    Using that logic then English belongs (although used by nationalists – clever nationalists! :0) ) to your community!

  • slackjaw

    ‘Like it or not, Most people in my community regard Irish as “belonging to the Other side” – especially as it has been used politically.’

    Maybe, but this is wrong. And you cannot blame the Irish language itself – its words, its sounds, its grammar etc – for how it is regarded by your community. By all means blame zealots for the way in which it is promoted.

    It may be perceived among most people in your community as belonging to the Other side, but that doesn’t mean that the Other side owns it. I can’t own Irish any more than I can own the word ‘toast’.

  • maca

    “I can’t own Irish any more than I can own the word ‘toast’.”

    Exactly because I own the word “toast”. So hands off my toast.

  • slackjaw

    Well I own the word “bread”, so you have no right to use your word without asking me first. (This could get very silly…)

  • smcgiff

    ‘Exactly because I own the word “toast”. So hands off my toast.’

    I wont tell you again, Maca. That’s my one. Yours is ‘compliment’.

  • Davros

    It may be wrong slackjaw, but we need to work from reality.

    Maca- nice rant πŸ˜‰

    But can I ask for a comment on what is for me the importance of this story-

    In the GFA it was agreed to work within the law and where the law was unpopular to Only use lawful means of changing the law. Here we have, with some degree of justification, resentment at a law and the SF councillors are refusing to work within the law.

  • maca

    Keep yer toast then ye feckers!!

    Davros: I need a good rant once in a while, I usually just restict it to my own blog. πŸ˜‰

    “Here we have, with some degree of justification, resentment at a law and the SF councillors are refusing to work within the law.”

    On this we are probably in agreement. Here SF is using the Irish language as a political tool to make a point or have another dig at the unionist community. Personally it sickens me.
    However, while I can understand that unionists might resent the language because of this (and other previous episodes) I would argue that any resentment should be directed towards SF not the language. Blame the guy with the stick, not the stick itself, so to speak.

  • George

    Nobody can own a language and putting barriers up against Irish only names is politicising the language.

    I don’t live up north but for me, banning an Irish only name for a building is absolutely ridiculous and to say only Irish speakers would be living there is absolutely and completely ridiculous.
    As my fellow citizens up north as supposedly entitled to be as Irish as me then they should have the same entitlement to be bored by Irish placenames as I do.

    Call me naive if you will but for me the Irish language is not political, simple as that. People may politicise it for their own ends but that doesn’t make the language a political issue.

    Cois Locha is not the thin edge of any wedge, it is merely evidence that a developer from the Irish culture wishes to name a building in the ancient language of this island. Big deal.

    Davros,
    we shouldn’t need mechanisms to change a name into Irish, it should be allowed. Having boring buildings in Irish will depoliticise the language quicker than anything.

    “If a unionist council wanted to give an Ulster-scots name” – fine in my book as long as the name has a positive (or at least non-negative) resonance with the area. Cois Locha fits these criteria.
    People in NI are interested in Ulster Scots so why not? Obviously someone naming a block of flats after a sectarian murderer is more interested in fomenting sectarianism than helping Ulster Scots culture. It’s a no brainer that that couldn’t happen but surely unionists have other names they can use.

    You don’t have to know why a building is called a certain name.

    I don’t know why Crompton Buildings in Dublin’s Temple Bar are called by that name but I don’t care.
    I would care if it was called Dessie O’Hare plaza or Michael Stone square.

  • Davros

    Maca, I don’t blame the language πŸ™‚ I would like to see Bilinguality ( is that a word) for all new buildings and signs as they are replaced!

    “I would argue that any resentment should be directed towards SF”

    Where’s Mark ???? LOL

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Smcgiff/Maca,

    “About as welcome as seeing green, white and orange kerb stones. But I’m a snob! :o)”

    Well, this is exactly how the use of Irish placenames makes me feel. It’s up to me, what offends me, no one else. Irish placenames do offend me in this context because they’re being used to mark territory… ie Nationalist territory. Can you accept that it offends me or am I deluding myself for the sake of an argument?

  • Davros

    George, the ROI is very different from NI – the heritage in effect is no longer contested. So it’s understandable that this seems strange to you.

  • George

    Davros,
    as for working within the law even if something is against the ideals of the GFA, I agree but how would one go about changing the law in the absence of local government in Stormont and taking for granted that one doesn’t consider Westminster one’s legitimate parliament?

  • maca

    Davros:
    “I would like to see Bilinguality ( is that a word -good enough for me) for all new buildings and signs as they are replaced!”

    I’d certainly have no problem with that. I also have no problems with monolingual English signs, I do have a problem though when Irish is refused it’s place … if ya see where i’m going there.

  • George

    Davros,
    I know it’s strange for me but in the very near future it should also be strange for the hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens over the border.

    Then we’ll know that we’re arriving at the stage of mutual cultural and political respect. I thought that’s the goal.

  • maca

    CG – if Irish placenames offends you then that’s a problem. Not allowing Irish placenames offends me and others, I hope you can also accept that.
    Should Ulster-Scots names offend me?

    Personally I don’t get the comparison to kerbstones but that’s just me.

    Can I also ask whose terrority do you think they are marking out? Terrorists? Republicans? Irish people?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi George,

    “Then we’ll know that we’re arriving at the stage of mutual cultural and political respect”

    I think Davros meant that you may find it strange in the RoI because one culture has essentially been eradicated. Nothing to do with respect.

    Am I reading you correctly Davros?

  • maca

    “because one culture has essentially been eradicated”

    Which culture would this be?

  • Davros

    George- having signed upto the GFA, it was agreed to work entirely within the system . If you look at the first post “lobby for change as suggested by SDLP assembly member Dominic Bradley.”

    The article itself

    ‘ SDLP assembly member Dominic Bradley called on NIO minister Angela Smith to change the Miscellaneous Provisions Order 1992.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Maca,

    “if Irish placenames offends you then that’s a problem. Not allowing Irish placenames offends me and others, I hope you can also accept that.
    Should Ulster-Scots names offend me?”

    I can easily sympathise with offence at a law that “bans” Irish. If Ulster-Scots is used to mark out territory I’d say yes I wouldn’t be surprised if it offended you.

    “Can I also ask whose terrority do you think they are marking out? Terrorists? Republicans? Irish people?”

    Unionist/Loyalist or Nationalist/Republican. Just a quick trip around Belfast would prove the point. Even symbols that have fek all to do with Ireland are used to mark out territory eg Israeli/Palestinian flags. Obviously, these shouldn’t offend anyone here on their own. But when used as markers they do. In the same way, I agree it’s stupid to be offended by a language. It’s not the language. It’s in the context of it being used to mark out territory.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Maca,

    “Which culture would this be?”

    I’d say Britishness.

  • Davros

    Not really Congal. I know some would think that was what I meant, and it is a case that could be (and possibly will be now LOL ) argued, but what I actually meant is that The “de-colonising/ de-anglicising” aspect of the irish Language issue that is so important up here has ceased to have any relevence for the 26.

    Tensions that exist/ed (post Independence ) regarding the language are/have been internal…eg The Language Freedon Movement, the greater difficulties in establishing Gaelschoil in the 26 compared to in the 6 causes resentment in the 26 etc

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Davros,

    Fair enough. Do you reckon the “de-colonising/ de-anglicising aspect of the irish Language” has ceased to exist in the 26 tho’ because it has largely been achieved?

    George, afer receiving Davros’s reply I retract my point.

  • slackjaw

    ‘Do you reckon the “de-colonising/ de-anglicising aspect of the irish Language” has ceased to exist in the 26 tho’ because it has largely been achieved?’

    Given that nearly all of the population here speaks English as their first language or at least to native standards, I wouldn’t say so meself.

  • maca

    “Do you reckon the “de-colonising/ de-anglicising aspect of the irish Language” has ceased to exist in the 26 tho’ because it has largely been achieved?”

    Sorry to interupt. What de-anglicising has been achieved?
    I’d also make the point that promoting Gaeilge is not about removing English even if that is the result.

  • George

    Davros,

    I agree that this shouldn’t be a confrontational issue although if Angela Smith changed the law after behind the scenes requests by SDLP or SF would unionist parties have said anything?

    Maybe this is a case of SF trying to score political points by letting the name Cois Locha be stopped rather than allowing the UUP or DUP score points by trying to block any move by Smith to change the law?
    And SDLP sitting in the middle appearing like the reasonable on in all this?

    Congal Clean,
    I wouldn’t use eradicate, pacify maybe or marry…

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Slackjaw.

    “Given that nearly all of the population here speaks English as their first language or at least to native standards, I wouldn’t say so meself.”

    Fair enough point. Do you not think it strange tho’ that officially it’s the second language even tho’, as you say, most people speak it as their first language?

  • Davros

    Maca it was stated aim to de-anglicise. Thankfully things have moved on, although you’ll still find SF
    talking of promoting a Gaelic Ireland.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi George,

    It’s Claen or are you suggesting I should spend more time in the shower rather than on the laptop?

  • George

    Davros,
    you mentioned this before. Why is it easier to set up gaelscoileanna in Northern Ireland?

    Congal,
    I retract my comment too.

  • Davros

    To be honest, I’m not sure how Unionist politicians ( as opposed to unionist community) would react .
    They are stuck playing Zero-sum politics with SF.

    I would prefer bilinguality personally.

  • maca

    “Maca it was stated aim to de-anglicise. Thankfully things have moved on, although you’ll still find SF
    talking of promoting a Gaelic Ireland.”

    Things have moved on as you say. And SF don’t represent the Irish people. And Gaeilgecising (new word I guess) doesn’t equal de-anglicising. πŸ˜‰

  • maca

    “Congal Claen” – Ulster king if memory serves?

  • Davros

    George- it’s covered in detail in “Who Needs Irish?”

    but I’ll post this entire article as I know quite a few aren’t registered

    Irish schools ‘easier to open’ in the North
    Issue Date Fri, Nov 21 03

    IT IS easier to open an Irish-language primary school under Tony Blair’s government than in this country.
    The rules here require schools to enrol a minimum of 17 pupils a year for the first three years in order to achieve recognition. But the criteria are more relaxed in the North, where the number of children required for temporary recognition is 12 outside Derry and Belfast and 15 in the two cities.
    Rural areas in the republic are particularly badly hit because the Department made no allowance for their difference from urban areas, the Oireachtas Committee on Education and Science was told yesterday.
    The cross-border disparity was outlined by the Gaelscoileanna association, the all-Ireland body catering for 149 primary and 33 post-primary schools – catering for 30,000 pupils – in 31 counties (except Leitrim) outside the Gaeltacht.
    Gaelscoileanna chief executive Colm O Dulachain told the committee that three gaelscoileanna in the Republic were threatened with having their recognition withdrawn because of the new system.
    Six gaelscoileanna were advised by the Department last March that their recognition was being withdrawn, but three appealed successfully. The other three face the prospect of closure next June unless a compromise is worked out.
    Mr O Dulachain said if the Department closed the schools, they would challenge the decision in the courts.
    He said that even if the schools were allowed to remain open, the future looked bleak for rural communities hoping to avail of an Irish-language education for their children because of the 17-pupil rule.
    Katherine Donnelly

    Approval for new schools was announced yesterday.

  • Davros

    Agreed Maca. However this particular Newry/Mourne move seems to be motivated by Anglophobia that would have been the Norm 100 years ago. It’s a shame , because it reinforces prejudices and stereotypes .
    I find it hard enough to convince my family and friends that it doesn’t have to be either/or.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Maca,

    Yip – around 600AD…

  • Davros

    OK , have to do some work… been a great discussion , slugger at it’s best!

    Hopefully Mark and Mick will give us their thoughts.

  • George

    Sorry about that Congal, perhaps you could consider it my way of assigning the virtue of purity to you.

    Thanks for that Davros and I also think de-Anglicising isn’t an issue here.

    To be honest there’s probably more thoughts of de-Gaelgeoirising going on here, in other words trying to give those who aren’t native speakers the chance to use the language as they don’t get much support from the native speakers who look down their noses at them.

    Linguistic snobbery is everywhere.

  • Davros

    CG, did you know my Great great great great great great great (30 more greats) Grandfather ?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Davros,

    Yip. I told him about the virtues of Oil of Ulay but he never listened…

  • maca

    “Linguistic snobbery is everywhere.”

    Tell me about it. I know a right aul language snob and one of these days she’s going to get a serious piece of my mind. You wouldn’t like Maca when he angry, turns all grreen and squishy.

    “did you know my Great great great great great great great (30 more greats) Grandfather ?”

    Somewhere in my blood like is Saran, he was a nasty piece of work as far as I know.

  • smcgiff

    Ancestors, Kings of both Scotland and Ulster! :0)

    Ye may now rise! :o)

  • maca

    “Ye may now rise!”

    I’ll rise alright, and may ye start running! πŸ˜‰

  • smcgiff

    ‘I’ll rise alright, and may ye start running!’

    Ah, the peasants are revolting! πŸ˜‰