#DigitalLunch: Why do politicians lie?

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Why do politicians lie?So, partly because of the huge success of Grillo in Italy on an anti politics ticket, and partly because its well passed the time when we ought to be asking such questions again this week’s #DigitalLunch will rather pointedly ask: Why do politicians lie?

A couple of answers to that question so far:

 

 

Usual time: 1pm, Friday. Participate: Google Plus. Watch: Here on Slugger or YouTube.  Hashtag: #DigitalLunch

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  • http://www.selfhatinggentile.blogger.com tmitch57

    Politicians lie for two sound political reasons:
    1) voters are fickle and easily change their minds;
    2) in order to appeal to as many voters as possible.

    Based on number two it would appear that pols in English-speaking countries with first-past-the-post franchises are more likely, or at least have greater rational incentive, to lie than pols in countries with PR systems.

    There is, however, a third reason, politics as a profession tends to attract the type of personality (oversized ego, underdeveloped id) that tends to do things of which voters don’t approve–particularly voters in moralistic societies like NI or the American bible belt. I think these three reasons cover over ninety percent of the lying by politicians.

  • Alias

    Usually because they are promoting ulterior agendas that require democratic consent without seeking the required democratic consent.

    Other reasons why they lie, such as the attempt to blame the horsemeat scandal on a failure of domestic legisilation and applicable industry consumer protection practice, are to keep the public ignorant of the true cause of the failure in order the public ignorant of the fact that matters that required their democratic consent, such as how their food industry is regulated, no longer require their democratic consent – because the lying political class has hoodwinked them into transferring this sovereignty to a supranational authority whose regulation of the food industry has duly caused the horsemeat scandal to occur within it.

    “Nevertheless, as the days pass, we are getting the full flavour of the European dimension of this fraud. So far, we have information of adulteration events in Ireland (several), the UK (two), Germany (two or three), Luxembourg (one), France (one or possibly two), Italy (possibly one) and now Denmark and possibly Sweden, with persistent but unproven claims of Polish involvement.

    The little Englanders of the media are still keen to plant their Union Jacks on the issue, making mischief on the FSA and other local matters, but the facts demonstrate that this is a pan-European failure, with the EU’s regulatory system at the heart of it.”

    Of course, horsemeat is only part of it: the flawed EU regulation covers all food ingredients. Thus we have methanol discovered in alcohol, road salt in food products, el al, and that is just th tip of the EU iceberg.

    As the domestic political class can no longer regulate for this – having hoodwinked the public into giving the applicable sovereignty away – we are left with their only defence: lying to the public about the orgin and scale of it and what can be done to protect them from it.

  • sherdy

    Quite simply, its in their DNA.

  • Kevsterino

    They lie, cheat, steal and fornicate because they are elected by a pool of liars, cheaters, stealers and fornicators.

    We can’t expect them to be better than ourselves.

  • Alias

    Incidentally, Beppe Grillo has simply pointed out the truth to the Italian public: that the EU is forcing them to bail-out corrupt bankers at the direct expense of their own nation’s prosperity.

    The anti-democratic aspect was the EU coup against Silvio Berlusconi, where it replaced him with an U puppet whose EU policies plunged the country deeper into a depression. Output fell by 2.1pc last year, the economy has contracted by a 10th, and unemployment among the young spiked to 37pc.

    Any supranational regime that will do that to a nation to bail-out corrupt bankers doesn’t deserve to survive.

    Effectively, austerity (the process of converting taxes into subventions for EU banks while lying to the public about the actual agenda) is dead since it won’t survive Grillo’s election – and given that these banks still require massive subvention, good luck to the ECB and the Bundesbank trying to get out of that one.

  • Greenflag

    It’s not that they lie it’s just that they very often conceal the truth or the most important ‘truths’. Still a photogenic smile and the right family name will work wonders for the budding pol .Another trait once researched on was the tendency for the most successful politicians to have been deprived of their mothers milk and affection in their early development .Churchill being a case in point .A demonstarble lack of affection being the trigger which spurs the drive to be ‘adulated ‘ by the voters .

    Our bankers were in previous decades considered to be plodding dull as dishwater servants for the general supply of mammon in the form of paper money to the populace and government .But then the entrepreunerial greats such as Bill Gates , Steve Jobs and many others showed how successful business folks could become both popular and immensely wealthy simultaneously ?

    And thus our bankers -formerly the boring -repetitive trenchermen of banking services generally decided that they too would become ‘mega stars ‘ -lion tamers – media giants and masters of the universe :(

    But to become masters of the universe they had to uptool their destructive financial weaponry and unleash it on the world through our elected politicians who were as Kevsterino states above no better than ourselves :(

    BTW speak for yourself Kevsterino ;) Some of us still have ethical aspirations ;) ?

  • Kevsterino

    @GF, you and I are exceptions, of course. I was speaking for the majorities who elect those who are like them.

    We, of course, are not in the majority. Nor will we ever be, I think.

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    ‘As the domestic political class can no longer regulate for this – having hoodwinked the public into giving the applicable sovereignty away ‘

    Irrelevant .I’m sure you would uphold the USA as at least one country which has’nt given it’s sovereignty away and yet they are probably the most obese of all developed countries .And their ‘regulation ‘ of the food industry is even more pathetic than the EU’s . .

    The mass processing food industry which continues to pour huge amounts of fat , sugars and salts into processed foods does so for one reason only -PROFIT . Nothing wrong with that per se as otherwise they would’nt produce anything and Americans would be forced to live on scarce and very expensive broccoli and lentils ,

    If they don’t their industry competitors would and they would then be out of business . The truth is that processed food without the ‘additives ‘ would be so tasteless people would’nt buy it .Asking the food industry to regulate food ingredients is no different from asking the banking industry to regulate itself .They can’t .Greed overcomes any ethical considerations for people’s health

    When people drink 7 or 8 cans of coca cola a day and eat processed food until their fat arses flow in fleshy folds over the toilet bowl then they are set up nicely to becoming continuing revenue streams for the also profit motivated private insurance funded medical establishment -until of course they demise .

    Not quite battery fed chickens or corralled beef yet of course -but give them time .

    Anyway with 7 to 8 billion people on the planet they can’t all be fed without using processed foods .

  • Greenflag

    ‘ @ Kevsterino ,

    ‘We, of course, are not in the majority.’

    Just as well . I ‘ve always been relatively skeptical even of the politicians I voted for . To misparaphrase the Great Marx (Groucho not Karl) .

    ‘I don’t want to become a majority of any political grouping I might favour at one point in time. .Events etc etc . Sooner or later they (the majority and the majority’s leaders will succumb to corruption , greed , hubris , arrogance etc .

    And anyway if ever elected I’d be tempted to demand a major government subsidy for the re introduction of the manufacturing process for guillotine production for widespread application in the bankster sector ;)

    BTW I’m reading David McCullough’s ‘An American in Paris ‘.
    An excellent read and strange to reflect on how not just Americans but many other nations looked to Paris in the years 1800 to 1900 as the mecca of modernism . And a little known fact -the great American sculptor Augustus (Gus ) Saint Gaudens had an Irish mother (Mary McGuinness) and had been born in Dublin on March 1 -1848 .His father came from the village of Aspet in the Pyrenees .

    If for nothing else the book is worth a read for it’s description of the Siege of Paris and it’s eventual surrender to the Prussians and the later Communards revolt .And throughout both the American Ambassador Elihu B Washburne acquitted himself to all sides like no other Ambassador to France or anywhere else had until and most probably since that time . An amazing character .

    Must’nt be too hard on politicians as without them it’s rule by the mob or most likely those with the biggest sticks .

    Perspective and acceptance of our human limitations doesn’t mean of course that we continue to swallow a never ending torrent of spun newspeak from the worst/best ? of them .

  • Alias

    “Irrelevant .I’m sure you would uphold the USA as at least one country which has’nt given it’s sovereignty away and yet they are probably the most obese of all developed countries .And their ‘regulation ‘ of the food industry is even more pathetic than the EU’s . .”

    You might also have noticed that the USA hasn’t given up its currency or given away sovereignty over its monetary policy to a supranational regime controlled by Germany and France. Hence it is the hapless Irish who are bailing-out out French and German banks, and not the Americans.

    It matters not one iota who regulates the American food industry. That is properly a matter for the Americans. It does matter who regulates the Irish food industry (the EU). And that is why you are now eating horsemeat which is being sold to you as beef.

    The brainwashed mentality which declares “It doesn’t matter who governs us” is fostered by the EU. It, however, doesn’t share the mentality it fosters – which is why it matters to them who governs you and why they much so much effort into stealing your sovereignty from you via the collusion of a gombeen political class.

  • http://redfellow.blogspot.com Malcolm Redfellow

    … because their lips move.

    Not so, necessarily. The essential problem is one of ”selling” complicated ideas — ideas, incidentally, which the political mouth, presented with the pre-prepared speech, may not intelligently grasp.

    That all results in gross simplification, which in turn is moderated, modified and memorialised through the media.

    Result: a sound-bite. Not a lie; but by no means the whole truth. Certainly a prisoner to fortune.

    A further complication, particularly in the contemporary era, is that politicians start as SpAds and end as cabinet ministers, tend to see the end as a career, are driven by ambition rather than ideology, by the need to be populist rather than principled:

    A man so various that he seem’d to be,
    Not one, but all mankind’s epitome.
    Stiff in opinions, always in the wrong;
    Was everything by starts, and nothing long;
    But, in the course of one revolving moon,
    Was chymist, fiddler, statesman and buffoon.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you Malcolm, the career trajectory of the modern politician that of Dryden’s Zimri, in real life George Villiers, second Duke of Buckingham. One of the most unprincipled and degenerate men of his age, a ‘lord of useless millions’ who ended his career broken and penniless! If only! But perhaps the real master of the black arts, the father of modern politics would have been the false Achitophel himself, Anthony Ashley cooper, first earl of Shaftesburyand patron of John Locke.
    .
    “Of these the false Achitophel was first:
    A name to all succeeding ages curst.
    For close designs, and crooked counsels fit;
    Sagacious, bold and turbulent of wit:
    Restless, unfixt in principles and place;
    In pow’r unpleas’d, impatient of disgrace.”

    Shaftesbury welded together what would become the Whig party out of the Republicans, po-faced Cromwellian bigots and ne’er do wells of the Green Ribbon Club (which incidentally gave “green” as a party colour to the Williamites, then to eighteenth century Republicanism and eventually, as a national colour, to Ireland). In order to pull the disparate elements into one party he developed the dark art of political evasion and equivocation to new heights. Perhaps, more than anyone else he deserves to be thought of as the “onlie begetter” of these ensuing politics.

    It is noteworthy that Locke, as Shaftesbury’s doctor as well as secretary, created a silver tube that drained constant pus from an abscess in his stomach, (“dripping poison’) and Shaftesbury’s short stature and tendency to say (when lying) “in all sincerity, gentlemen” gave rise to the nickname “little-sincerity.” The parallels do not require labouring….

  • Rory Carr

    There was a time (and once upon a time it was) when I knew quite well at least a handful of UK MP’s (all Labour) whom I considered extremely trustworthy – Joan Maynard (Sheffield Brightside) known affectionately, and also not so affectionately as Stalin’s Granny; Tom Litterick (B’ham Selly Oak) who livened the ’79 party conference when he tore strips out of party leader, James Callaghan. Tom dropped dead quite suddenly at the age of 51; Ernie Roberts (Hackney North) who confounded Daily Telegraph readers because, with his neat clipped moustache and soft BBC accent he looked and sounded so much more like one of theirs than the AEUW Deputy General Secretary which he actually was. He was deposed by the more accommodating Blairite careerist, Diane Abbot. Nuff said. My own MP, Norman Atkinson was also a straight talking no-nonsense guy although his position as Party Treasurer indicated that he was no sleeping violet (I think I’m groping the wrong flower here) and he gave Denis Healey a rough ride at the 76 Conference. Norman was deselected in favour of Bernie Grant in 1987. The joke about that was that it was arch-opportunist, Wood Green MP. Reg Race who had parachuted in a load of young toadies determined to stael Norman’s seat as Race’s own neighbouring seat of Wood Green had become shaky due o boundary changes. Unfortunately, for Reggie, but happily for everyone else in the whole wide world, when Norman lost out in the first ballot, Race’s young followers who had been whipped up to a frenzy of anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-maiden auntie fervour, started actually taking all this stuff seriously and enough of them gave their votes to the black candidate, Grant that, when added to the votes of Atkinson’s supporters, who were anything but the racist fogies that Race had painted them, Bernie Grant romped home. Even more fun was to be had when Race’s old constituency, reconstituted as Hornsey and Wood Green was reconquered for Labour in 1992 by Barbara Roche and held by her for thirteen years.

    Race was never again selected for a winnable seat. He was the first MP to deliberately employ the word “fuck” in parliamentary debate and, although it is not recorded in Hansard, many other MPs followed his example albeit sotto voce and appending the words “off” and “Reg” to the naughty word.

    One US politician who lied well and often and to good effect was Louisiana legend, Huey Long. While on the stump in southern Louisiana, his handlers reminded him that he was in Catholic territory now and to cut his cloth accordingly. He duly regaled his audiences with tales of how he drove his maternal grandparents to Mass each Sunday morning by cart and mule then later drove his paternal Baptist grandparents to church later that day.

    “Why, councillor, I did not know that you had Catholic grandparents,” exclaimed his minder afterwards.

    “Why, Bob, we did not even have a mule,” was Long’s response.

    Debating, on another occasion with a garrolous opponent who regaled his audience with tales of how he went to school in his bare feet, Long came back with the unputdownable, ” Why, Senator, I was born with bare feet !”

    Huey Long did an awful lot of good for the poor and downtrodden of Louisiana. They say he went about it in the wrong way. Maybe so, but no one was going about it in the right way and none intended to, Long was not brought down because of his foibles. his wrongdoings, he was demonised and finally murdered for all the things he was doing that were right and all the more that he intended so doing.

    In Peckinpah’s movie, The Wild Bunch the Ernest Borgnine character rounds on the gang’s leader, Pike (William Holden) with,

    ” It ain’t about giving your word, damnit, it’s who you give your word to !”

    Huey Long gave his to the poor and dispossessed of Louisiana and it was that word that he intended (in a road to hell kinda way) to keep. The promises he made to his and their enemy along the way meant nothing to him. Indeed why should it have ? Lying was their stock in trade. The powerful always lie to the weak, the rich to the poor, such people are of no consequence to them other than as labour power to be exploited, consumers to be tricked and overcharged and an electorate to be bullied, fooled and beaten down if necessary.

    On his way to total dictatorship of the Dominican Republic , Rafael Leonidas Trujillo enrolled in the National Guard where, under the control of the US Marine Corps he excelled in the torture techniques they instilled in him. During a mission in the east of the country in 1917 Trujillo held hostage a family as a human shield in a church. Over three days he successively raped the seventeen-year-old daughter. She was left covered in blood, sobbing in her mother’s arms. The ensuing furore obliged that the Marines investigate and accordingly a lawyer was provided to Trujillo who successfully pleaded his client’s defence that – wait for it – ‘ Three times implies consent ! ‘ He was acquitted.

    ‘ He thinks just like a Marine ! ‘ exclaimed his US superiors on more than one occasion. They promoted him to captain.

    Whatever skillful form of lying Trujillo developed to maintain his dictatorship paled in comparison surely with the skillful destruction of truth emoloyed by his US masters in thei promotion of democracy.

    I kid you not.

  • aquifer

    Because we do not trouble ourselves to record simple truths, like who voted for what legislation.

  • aquifer

    Because we do not make plain what all the public money is spent on.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    i) Because everyone expects it.
    ii) And because they can, usually with no serious challenge, because of (i).

    “Wake up Neo!”

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    ‘You might also have noticed that the USA hasn’t given up its currency or given away sovereignty over its monetary policy to a supranational regime controlled by Germany and France. ‘

    True they instead give it away by continually devaluing it and printing more of it (quantitive easing is the more politically correct euphemism ) and the dollar’s value is now completely dependent on the fact that China & Japan and other countries continue to buy US Treasury Bills.

    ‘It matters not one iota who regulates the American food industry. ‘

    It matters a great deal. There are 9,000 deaths in the USA every year due to food poisoning . There is also a nationwide epidemic of obesity , diabetes and life expectancy in the USA is now the lowest of the developed countries

    ‘The brainwashed mentality which declares “It doesn’t matter who governs us” is fostered by the EU.’

    Who said it doesn’t matter ? The problem lies not in the EU or USA governments but in who controls those governments and directs their policies be they monetary, agricultural or whatever .

    Look for the large multi national corporations and the international cabal of banksters and the 5,000 or more lobbyists in Washington DC and their ‘EU” equivalents and their willing bought and paid for neo conservative right wing politicians and the scared ‘centrists’ and leftists .

    As for the ‘gombeen ‘ political class ? What used to be an Irish pejoritive for our politicians can now be applied to British, American , German and virtually every political class in the west.

  • Greenflag

    @ Rory ,

    Thanks for that yarn re Huey Long . LBJ was almost in the same league and won his first election in Texas by a slim margin having spread the word that his opponent had been a sheep fornicator .

    The problem with ‘lying’ or lack of full disclosure for politicians as it is for everybody is that the first part of the lie has to mesh in with the last part or later versions of the same lie . Those politicians who impale their careers on some poor choice of words or money or some affair tend to be those who forget the original lie .The most successful politicians tell the biggest lie for as long as they can and thus maintain ‘credibility’ and rh ‘character’ .

    But thats ‘politics ‘ It’s not a profession for ‘idealists’ except of course in the early stages .The idealists don’t usually survive politically or if they do they are confined to the bottom perches in the political zoo.

    Nasty business but it beats the alternative -i.e never ending warfare/gunfire etc etc

    BTW best wishes in your health struggle and keep posting.

  • David Crookes

    What a night for learning! Tremendous postings from Greenflag, Seaan, and Rory. Many thanks, boys.

    “it is possible that I shall be able to achieve very little.

    “I may achieve nothing.

    “We are not all good, and our opponents are not all bad.”

    Those three sentences won’t get you a lot of votes anywhere in the world. Politics is a bit like war: it trades in crude confident simplicities.

    John McCain once annoyed a lot of his own tribe in mid-campaign by saying that Mr Obama was an honourable man who would make a competent president. Fair play to the boy.

    No marks, by contrast, to the local politician who implies that if you don’t elect him to empty your bins, the union will be in danger.

    In Northern Ireland we have any number of Skibbereen Eagles, all keeping an eye on the Czar of Russia. The trouble is that many of them are blinder than a trebly-bandaged mole, as C S Calverley would say. But the gulpins don’t mind. Thus when Mr Frazer shouts, “Paedophiles!”, he is rewarded by growls of approval.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you David, for the kind words, but while politicians may truly say “We are not all good, and our opponents are not all bad,” it is still most important to know who owns them, as their sponsors/owners may just be a great deal more wicked in their intentions than the puppets they have paid for. As Alec Pope once wrote in a couplet for a royal dog collar: “I am his Highness dog at Kew, / Please tell me sir, whose dog are you?

    I had a High Church Anglican colleague, a pious Christian, who set up a film company in the 1980s in Soho. About a year after he started he discovered that much of the money he believed had come from a friend had to sponser him and his work had come at source from organised crime by way of that friend. He was asked by his true sponsors to duplicate hard core pornography during the down hours. With threatened violence and a young family to consider he could not afford to say no………

    With the hidden agendas of politicians as with anything else in life, it is what we do not know that hurts us.

  • tacapall

    ‘You might also have noticed that the USA hasn’t given up its currency or given away sovereignty over its monetary policy to a supranational regime controlled by Germany and France.”

    Its interesting some people believe the American people actually own the dollar, have they not already give up sovereignty over its monetary policy a long time ago via the Federal Reserve – who does own and run the federal reserve ?

    Politicians lie because thats their trade, just like barristers are economical with the truth when it comes to winning in court or having the gift of the gab make you a good salesman.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks a lot, Seaan. Indeed. Reminds me of the well-meaning church people who visited Eastern Europe every summer in order to help children. It turned out that their money, labour, and good will were being appropriated by an extremely sinister crowd.

    Church people can be sanguine. Some complete rascals attend church religiously every Sunday. It’s good for business.

    Over here we used to have at least one big builder who didn’t need to worry about planning permission. According to rumour, he was a great friend of an eminent local politician.

    Not all that long ago there was talk that Stranmillis College might be closing down. Before you could say BULLDOZER, one Deeply Unselfish Person in Stormont was saying that the Stranmillis site would need to be made available to local builders.

    Builders paying protection money to paramilitaries is one side of an equation. The other side is politicians looking after builders. We need to wipe out both sides of that equation.

    A new cross-border party consisting of Catholics, Protestants, and merry-minded atheists will be worth supporting only if it resolves to eschew secret paymasters.

    We badly need to open up the accounts of all our local parties. It is a scandal that as far as donations are concerned they are still allowed to operate in hidlands. If you legalize sleaze, you will get sleaze.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you David, it is may experience, too, that “some complete rascals attend church religiously every Sunday. It’s good for business.”

    In that way such hypocrites may acquire a reputation for being “Good Living” that frequently covers up their tendency (so a neighbouring farmer, one who actually farms, rather than lives off Farm Payment handouts and conacre rentals, tells me) to spell GOD with a silent third letter :”L”.

    “Over here we used to have at least one big builder who didn’t need to worry about planning permission. According to rumour, he was a great friend of an eminent local politician.”

    Such rumours run everywhere that power is weilded. Sometimes they are true, sometimes simply malicious gossip. But where the occur they will not fail to erode our trust in those who govern us. I am deeply concerned that even with the eleven headings covering those areas under which MPs/MLAs are required to disclose their financial interests, as noted in “The Register of Members Financial Interests,” it is still possible for another member of their family (or extended family by marriage, or their close friends) to be on the board of an organisation that profits directly from the lobbying activity of a politician who is only required to disclose his own actual board memberships (or shares or junkets or organisational links, etc). Accordingly these “interests” implicit in a politician’s contacts remain invisible to the voting public.

    But then, how many voters would actually care!

  • David Crookes

    Seaan, voters may care so much when their imagination is caught that they will dislodge a sitting MP. It’s been known to happen.

    I dream in wilder moments that it might be possible to catch the imagination of voters by offering them a culturally opulent and anti-materialist manifesto. Forests instead of No Water Charges. More and not less local libraries, with some of them offering help to those who want to write their own stories. No tax for small cars, and brutally high tax for minibus-jeeps. Pages in the local press reserved for pieces of good local news, as for example the creation of a new street-garden. I wonder if anyone would vote for that sort of agenda.

  • Alias

    “Its interesting some people believe the American people actually own the dollar, have they not already give up sovereignty over its monetary policy a long time ago via the Federal Reserve – who does own and run the federal reserve ?”

    Did you get this ill-informed obfuscating waffle from Greenflag?

    The Federal Reserve is accountable to the American people via Congress. It is Congress that established The Fed and set its goals. You might have noticed, if you were even faintly aware of these things, that two of its goals are stable prices in American and maximum employment for Americans.

    You’d then have noticed, if pigs could fly, that the macroeconomic goals of the ECB, which controls monetary policy in Ireland, have no relevance at all to Ireland, but are focused on the diametrically different needs of the larger economic within the Eurozone. So Americans get policy that is based on their economic needs and the Irish don’t.

    As with all ‘independence’ for central banks, it is simply a design to reassure the markets that the long-term macroeconomic policy is not subject to short-term expedient political decisions. However, as it is essential that the government’s fiscal policy is not out of whack with macroeconomic and monetary policy it is built into the design that the central bank follows the fiscal policy of the government. Were it not so, for example, you’d have a situation where the government’s fiscal policy is contractionist but the central bank’s policy is expansionist or vice versa.

    And that situation is precisely what destroyed the Irish economy and the economies of the other PIIGS. The policy of the ECB, which controlled the macroeconomic and monetary policy in Ireland, was expansionist as the German and French economies required that policy. Ireland, on the other hand, had an economy that was already booming via exports and so it required contractionist macroeconomic and monetary policy which was the opposite policy to what German and France required. As Ireland is a complete irrelevance, and as there is one policy for all member states, Ireland got macroeconomic and monetary policies that effectively strapped a rocket booster onto the back of its already booming economy.

    In Ireland’s case, as it is a non-sovereign macroeconomic and monetary state, it had to follow the expansionist policy of the ECB as that is the design of the system.

    “Politicians lie because thats their trade, just like barristers are economical with the truth when it comes to winning in court or having the gift of the gab make you a good salesman.”

    True, and because the public are far too ignorant to stop electing people of despicable moral character. But then again, these are the same ignorant people who considered it a wonderful idea to have the same macroeconomic and monetary policy as France and German irrespective of what policies their own economy actually required. And who’d ever think that nations could be that stupid, apart from the EU mandarins? And worse than that, when it all went tits-up as predicted, the muppets still insist it was a fabulous idea…

  • David Crookes

    …..and may even declare that the idea of a nation controlling its own economy is insanely left-wing.

    Will a unified Ireland ever be able to produce all its own milk, butter, cheese, beef, mutton, pork, and poultry? Will she be able to do so inside the present EU? If not, should we be thinking about a future unified Ireland outside the EU? In which our farmers will not be spied on from the sky? And forced to do two hours paperwork every day?

    Worst thing about the muppets: they believe, and declare, that the “fabulous idea” is actually unchangeable. I’m fed up with clever sophisticated people telling me that things are bad but there’s nothing we can do.

    It’s a lie.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    Yes David, I agree “voters may care so much when their imagination is caught that they will dislodge a sitting MP. It’s been known to happen.” But I have to add an enormous qualification about who is actually holding the net the imagination is caught in.

    Monday night Jeremy Duns is presenting a programme “MI6 & the Media.” over on Radio 4 (BBC). The idea is that in the 1960s “key Fleet Street correspondents and news chiefs were working for the intelligence services.”

    Not only do the politicians who govern us lie, but also their servants labour to ensure that only those lies come to public knowledge that will help their various agendas. Not conspiracy, just reality. I had a friend from Dublin working on Channel 4 news in the 1990s who told me of stories regularly quashed or edited under instruction from Vauxhall Cross.

    The real problem is that our imaginations are abused constantly by advertising (Vance Packard “The Hidden Persuaders”) and the media (Herbert Marcuse “One Dimensional Man”) to such a degree that I worry that the business of an individual thinking for his or her self and making up their own minds is almost a thing of the past. But I do hope to be pleasantly surprised, and I am hoping that the grass roots element of Five Star and the Pirates is one such surprise, and not just another Situationalist fiasco, such as we had in the late 1960s. And I was there….

    When I raised the issue on another Slugger thread that the funding for the five-star movement had to be coming from somewhere I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist. But it does have to be colleted from someone, and knowing where it comes from is all that stands between the individual and the lies, even if such knowledge is only a very thin shift in an arctic wind.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    @ Greenflag (answering Rory)

    While anyone sane must agree with you:

    “But that’s ‘politics ‘ It’s not a profession for ‘idealists’ except of course in the early stages .The idealists don’t usually survive politically…..

    Nasty business but it beats the alternative.”

    There are other alternatives. If someone lies to you in business, and money is involved, they are guilty of fraud. If you are harmed by someone selfishly exploiting you (such as Savile, but there are so many more who have not yet been mentioned), their manipulation of your innocence is called abuse. Last time I looked, money in the form of “our taxes” is involved in politics, but the obscurism and cynicism of our culture has entirely normalised lying and abuse in the area of our political life.

    Our personal lives and any real business dealings we attempt could not begin to function without trust. If we can attempt to set standards of honesty in everyday life, and in business (I’m not stupid. I know how hard this is to enforce) then the alternative is not simply “never ending warfare,” but honest, altruistic government by politicians who are trustworthy. This is not idealism, it’s the only way to stop it all falling apart like the financial collapse that has been temporarily put on ice.

  • tacapall

    Alias do you believe that the dollars in American wallets and their bank accounts were issued by the U.S. Treasury?

    Every single note of U.S. currency circulating throughout the world at the present time belongs to a privately-owned and for-profit banking syndicate known as the Federal Reserve Bank, and it even says so right across the top of every bill and yet each bill also carries the stamp of approval of the U.S. Treasury which in-turn, pays, and pays, and pays these private bankers for the “privilege” of using their debt-based money.

    And where does the money to pay these bankers for their wonderful and never-ending debt come from?

    The taxpayer.

    “It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” Henry Ford.

    Maybe you should read up on the “The Independent Treasury Act of 1920 suspended the de jure (meaning “by right of legal establishment”) Treasury Department of the United States government.

    “Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve banks…”

    “The depredations and the iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve banks acting together have cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of the United States; has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government.” Congressman Louis T. McFadden Chairman of the House Banking Committee, 193

    “The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution… if the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” – Thomas Jefferson

    “Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are US government institutions. They are not… they are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the U.S. for the benefit of themselves and their foreign and domestic swindlers, and rich and predatory money lenders.

    The sack of the United States by the Fed is the greatest crime in history. Every effort has been made by the Fed to conceal its powers, but the truth is the Fed has usurped the government. It controls everything here and it controls all our foreign relations. It makes and breaks governments at will.” Louis T. McFadden Chairman, House Banking Committee, 1931

    On June 4 1963, President Kennedy signed Executive Order 11110 which amended E.O. No. 10289, and authorized the United States Treasury to bypass the Federal Reserve, and issue 4.2 Billion dollars in debt-free, un-borrowed United States Notes, and United States Silver Certificates based upon “any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury”. But curiously, there is no mention of any gold or gold bullion.

    Almost immediately after Kennedy’s assassination, one of the first things Lyndon B. Johnson (Freemason) as the new President, did, was to order that the Silver Certificates and United States Notes which had been printed up, be collected and destroyed.

    The bulk of the ownership of the Federal Reserve System is held by these banking interests, and NONE is held by the United States Treasury:

    Rothschild Bank of London
    Rothschild Bank of Berlin
    Warburg Bank of Hamburg
    Warburg Bank of Amsterdam
    Lazard Brothers of Paris
    Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy
    Chase Manhattan Bank of New York
    Goldman, Sachs of New York
    Lehman Brothers of New York
    Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York

    Then theres The Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation Company owned by the very same people who own the federal reserve. These parasites have the debt based money system all wrapped up.

  • David Crookes

    I’m no expert, here, tacapall, but Woodrow Wilson wondered if he had destroyed his own country by signing into existence what came out of a pretty sleazy operation in 1913. How truly brilliant the whole thing was appeared sixteen years later. But people never learn. Thanks for your posting.

    Bright-eyed imbeciles delight to declare in schools and even in church pulpits that we are all global citizens now, and that change has been institutionalized. Not one of them has the brains to see that the whole thing stinks.

    It’ll be wonderful if we ever achieve a UI whose people are citizens of a nation, and not of a soulless world economy.

  • http://www.ardrighbooks.com SeaanUiNeill

    Talking about global citizens and institutionalized change, David, I remember that there was a little ninepenny book published by Penguin in 1943 outlining the entire plan for a global world order. J.F. Horrabin’s “An Atlas of Post War Problems.” Horrabin was a friend of George Orwell, a Marxist and a noted pioneer of “Socialist Geography.”

    The Atlas describes a template of the world we live in today in frightening detail. Open borders, preserving Hitler’s economic unification of Europe “positively”, the development of open international trade and the “levelling up” of the “Tiger” economies (p.42), etc, etc. But please, please order a copy of the book from Amazon or Abe (please mention me so that I get my commission) before even thinking “conspiracy theory.” But then, Horrabin actually uses the word “conspiracy” in his foreword as a positive thing. As I said elsewhere, “It’s what you don’t know that hurts you.”

    The parallel to this (UN!!! sic) plan is the general social drive to homogenise the culture of the post war world, which Marcuse describes throughout his insightful “One Dimensional Man” and is described from another angle in C.S. Lewis’s “The Abolition of Man” where Lewis describes the new creators of popular opinion as being able to “see through” any system of morality. It is at this point that I begin to remember the “Beyond Freedom and Dignity” debate when B.F. Skinner brought out his book of the same name.

    So, “why do politicians lie?”

  • David Crookes

    Sounds a bit like Hogbenism, Seann! I’ll have to get that book. C S Lewis was able to see how things would go when they were at an embryonic stage. I suppose that’s what prophets are for.

    You can see one-dimensional human beings every day. They voluntarily wear the Western form of Maoist fatigues, and they all gabble voluntarily into mobile phones.

    If an MLA appeared in Stomont wearing a tweed jacket, corduroy trousers, a pullover, and no tie, he would be regarded by most people as unworthy of serious attention.

    What does that show you?

    It shows you only what complete boobies most people have become.

    The most mentally healthy persons whom I know spend a lot of their time in the world of Lewis Carroll. That world helps them to deal with the so-called ‘real world’ in which politicians lie.

    The new unified-Ireland party when it appears will need to be a truly green party intermediate between genuinely Christian Democrat and Official Monster Raving Loony. I’m serious! An excess of earnestness is usually a sign of dictatorship on the way.