#Census2011: The first bare bones of NI’s changing story…

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Ten years ago nothing was more eagerly awaited [than the collapse of Stormont? - Ed] than the announcement of the Census figures. Hyper optimism on the nationalist side suggested that the Protestant population might dip below 50% for the first time.

The Census body saw that one coming and finessed the figures so that background became as important as any stated religion. I don’t think it’s putting too fine a point on it to say that many nationalist commentators were disappointed.

The figures released yesterday are detailed and show some interesting contrasts. I’ve not gone through the wider data sets, but there are some predictable patterns and some surprising ones.

This year the headlines are that the population is up by 7% (just one per cent in Belfast and Craigavon, and a whopping 21% in Dungannon)… which means we have to get used to saying 1.8 million rather than 1.7 million.

But there’s been a drop off in school age children across a very wide geographic spread:

The number of children (people aged 0-15 years) in Northern Ireland has fallen by 18,700 (5 per cent), from 398,100 in 2001 to 379,300 in 2011. This decrease in the number of children can be seen in 19 of the 26 LGDs, with a reduction of over 10 per cent in Belfast, Castlereagh, Derry, Limavady and Strabane. Of the 7 LGDs with more children in 2011, the greatest increases were in Banbridge (11 per cent) and Dungannon (9 per cent).

Even in LGDs where the number of children increased since 2001, the growth in the number of children was proportionately below the growth in the overall population. Consequently, the share of the population accounted for by children fell in every LGD.

A big increase in the aged population is no surprise, with the biggest contrasts between two parts of Co Down:

North Down has the oldest age profile in that, of all the LGDs, it has the lowest proportion of children (18 per cent) and the highest proportion of people aged 65 and over (18 per cent). Conversely, Newry & Mourne has the youngest age profile in that, of all the LGDs, it has the highest proportion of children (24 per cent) and one of the lowest proportions of people aged 65 and over (12 per cent).

In North Down the number of people aged 65 and over is similar to the number of children (both 14,500), whereas in Newry & Mourne people aged 65 and over (12,300) are out-numbered almost 2 to 1 by children (23,500).

There were much more detailed questions in last year’s census than ever before. They’re not leaving anything to chance or extrapolation on religion for instance, taking both stated religion and that you were brought up with.

Language questions include one on Ulster Scots and a wider one about what the household language is. I’d expect increases in Polish and Portuguese there.

That comes in what officially they term the second release, and is due any time between November and February next year.

Since the politics of demography has receded somewhat as political mainstay I don’t expect the same near hysteria as greeted the 2001 results in December 2002. But it may be that there are some surprises left in the system.

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  • changeisneeded

    Always good to remember a lot of people will not go near a census. In some areas it is simply not trusted.
    Most people I asked told me the just put it in bin.

    Take this census with a bag of salt

  • changeisneeded

    they just put it in the bin

  • jthree

    ‘a lot of people will not go near a census’

    There was a 94% response rate.

  • Mick Fealty

    That’s a massive data set. But it would be good to see where non compliance is highest…

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mick I have yet to meet anyone in the real world who cares about the “Census figures”. Where did you meet people who are suffering “Hyper optimism” about the Census?

  • Dec

    ‘I don’t think it’s putting too fine a point on it to say that many nationalist commentators were disappointed’

    And sceptical.

  • tacapall

    “And sceptical.”

    Exactly Dec, Thats why Changeisneeded is quite correct, I dont know anyone who filled them in, I just threw it in the bin.

  • JR

    Populations of Banbridge and craigavon are growing very fast despite producing below average quantaties of young people. I would suggest that there is a slight drift of young adults from Newry and Mourne up the new A1 to Banbridge.

  • Reader

    tacapall: Exactly Dec, Thats why Changeisneeded is quite correct, I dont know anyone who filled them in, I just threw it in the bin.
    Wow. 1.8 million people hereabouts were recorded on a census form and you don’t know any of them?

  • tacapall

    Nothing new there Reader, where do you think Perfidious Albion comes from ? Obviously there’s more than 1.8 million people living here.

  • Greenflag

    This is where the much respected late Horseman’s input would have shed more than a cursory light .

    Given that in the Republic some 20% of all births were to ‘mothers’ who were ‘immigrants one wonders would the same percentage of all births figure be the same or lesser or even greater in NI ? Will later census results show those figures ?

    http://ulstersdoomed.blogspot.com/search/label/Demography

    Here’s the Republic’s 2011 for comparison if anyone is interested

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

  • http://www.banuanlae.org/ Ulick

    “The number of children (people aged 0-15 years) in Northern Ireland has fallen by 18,700 (5 per cent), from 398,100 in 2001 to 379,300 in 2011. ”

    Worth also mentioning that the number of children aged 0-3 years has increased by 10% (100,300). Looks like the ‘Pope’s children’, like their counterparts in the rest of the country are in the midst of a little baby-boom having delayed parenthood until their early 30’s. With three children under three myself, I’ve “done my bit”. ;-)

  • http://bangordub.wordpress.com/ Bangordub
  • Mick Fealty

    Make love not war Ulick… I certainly approve if that’s the message!! ;-)

  • lamhdearg2

    In response to dec and taca, I know at least 100,000 super (ulster) loyalists who put down their relig, as R,C. just for a laugh, whats that you say, balderdash. you can put me down as, optimistic that this year figures will dampen the ambitions of anyone Hyper optimistic on the (irish) nationalist side.

  • tacapall

    Lamhderg I couldn’t care less what the figures of the census are or what information people put in it, my only interest is sucking as much money off the British exchequer as I can, not taking part in sectarian headcounts for them to manipulate, which they will.

  • JR

    I am looking foreward to seeing how many people said they couldn’t understand Ulster Scots. If everyone understands it does that make it the most widely understood second language in the North or somthing else.

    I am also looking forward to seeing if the incerase in Gaelscoileanna in the last 10 years has lead to an increase in people claiming to be able to speak Irish.

  • Old Mortality

    tacapall
    ‘my only interest is sucking as much money off the British exchequer as I can’
    If nothing else, your candour is admirable.

  • tacapall

    Old Mortality if the Royal Family can do it then why cant everyone else.

  • lamhdearg2

    taca, millions visit the U.K. every year, one reason they do is the royals, this means the royals give back, do you give back?, if not, you are just a begger.
    ps, are you saying you did not fill in your census.

  • Greenflag

    @ Bangordub,

    Thanks very much for those links . If your website is an attempt to carry forward the late Ian Livingstone
    ‘Ulster is doomed” then you’ve got another new reader who will probably make a comment or two in due course ? Looks very good and professional am impressed . As of now I only have time to comment on slugger but that situation may change in the near future . I’m in the process of changing my internet service and e-mail which might (one never knows ?) excommunicate me unintentionally from slugger so I may be looking for refugee status on your site ;)

  • changeisneeded

    ‘a lot of people will not go near a census’ me

    “There was a 94% response rate.” jthree

    so what is the population that makes 100% jthree?
    and who made that figure up?

    Tacapall: Exactly Dec, Thats why Changeisneeded is quite correct, I dont know anyone who filled them in, I just threw it in the bin.
    Reader Wow. 1.8 million people hereabouts were recorded on a census form and you don’t know any of them?”

    Thats the way it is round my neck of the woods and many more than just us…

    Yeah census form went straight into bin, not keen on handing personal information to the british government based on their history, never mind lockheed martin for the USA to have access to under the patriot act

    Oh and i dont know anyone that has ever been done for not filling it in and thats quite a few people..!!

  • tacapall

    “millions visit the U.K. every year, one reason they do is the royals, this means the royals give back, do you give back?, if not, you are just a begger.
    ps, are you saying you did not fill in your census”

    Of course I give back Lamhdearg I pay taxes on the goods that I buy because I have to, not because I want to but Im sure Mrs Windsor and the family dont worry about tax how could you worry about free money being given to you being taxed.

    No I did not fill in the census form I dumped it in the bin where it belongs.

  • Mick Fealty

    BD, have you controlled for dropping turnout amongst Nats?

  • sonofstrongbow

    Who’d have thought the dry administrative tool of a census would bring such fun? That it has driven some to apoplexies of paranoia about sneaky-beaky government departments snooping enhances the whole exercise for me.

    Btw do these folks not realise that their Bru giro numbers form the first line of the targeting code for Army drones?

  • Jack2

    Ulick – 3 under 3 , wow ! Your household must be very busy.

    Will be amazing in years to come though.

  • http://bangordub.wordpress.com/ Bangordub

    Mick,
    There are many new factors to take into consideration this time around including dropping turnout, not least the ageing population and dramatic immigration patterns. The latter is a significant factor in the Dungannon LGD for instance. All food for thought.
    Greenflag,
    Thank’s for your kind words ! The site is only going for three months and I don’t pretend to have Horsemans insight. It is also not as tightly focussed but I am blessed with some excellent commenters, some familiar to this parish.
    You are very welcome to join in the fun whenever you have the chance :-)

  • lamhdearg2

    whats the % change for 3 to 5 year olds in east belfast, it must be through the roof, as its getting dreadfully hard to get ones offspring into a good school.

    funny (to me) seeing some of the our day will come (due to breeding) crowd, getting their excusses in, just in case the figures dont go as they so desperately want.

  • john

    Greenflag if you liked ulster is doomed then you should check this site out

    http://endgameinulster.blogspot.gr/

  • galloglaigh

    Ha ha

    John

    Read that link in a Ballymena accent…

  • http://www.banuanlae.org/ Ulick

    @Jack2
    It’s amazing now, crazy, but still amazing.

    @lamhdearg2
    I feel your pain. I live in east Belfast myself. St. Bernards, St. Michael’s, Holy Rosary and St. Joseph’s are all busting at the seams, though we’re hoping to cross the river and get ours into a good secular primary – Scoil an Droichid on the Ormeau.

  • http://bangordub.wordpress.com/ Bangordub

    Ulick,
    Nice one! Although I do like lamhdearg2, much as he tries to wind me up.
    John,
    Spot on with your link
    galloglaigh
    I’ve been to Ballymena, couldn’t understand a word. probably my fault

  • BluesJazz

    The general trend seems to be East European immigration. The concentration of food processing in Dungannon and Craigavon would show where the immigrants are concentrating.
    Not a big deal, but the loss of 21-25 year olds to emigration is.(Mostly graduates) Over to mainland UK or Australia/NZ/USA as in the 80’s.

    The ‘religious’ thing is hardly relevant. Anecdotal ‘evidence’ will show that the majority of the population are now atheist in all but name. That’s a good thing because ‘religion’ was the cause of the troubles. When it disappears (very shortly-at least among those under 40) so will the conflict.

    As for the economy, the big cuts in the block grant in 2015 are going to be really shocking to an ageing population. Education will bear the brunt given the massive decline in pupil numbers. School closures will be common place, but why should that be an issue?

  • http://bangordub.wordpress.com/ Bangordub

    BluesJazz
    “‘religion’ was the cause of the troubles”
    I agree with every word of your post except the above bit, sorry.
    I’m away to bed but otherwise I’d happily converse at length. It was never, ever about religion. It was about identity and territory and class and power.

  • Alias

    “It was about identity and territory and class and power.”

    The class and power dynamics are often overlooked.

    In regard to the former, the poorer Catholics tended to see their poverty as a deliberate failure by the state to increase their meagre lot and to think it must be so because of their religion, whereas the poorer Protestants resented the demands by the Catholics to focus on their needs, particularly when those demands were based on claims that the Protestants were being treated more favourably by the state and that the redress should come at their expense (a claim that Protestants living in poverty would assume was nonsense).

    That was the sectarian nature of the early protest enterprise, and that failure to develop it as a cross-community ‘working class’ platform despite some half-hearted attempts had lamentable consequences. There was a clear-cut case to answer that so-called ‘Big House’ unionism was not concerned with ‘upward mobility of the working class, be it Catholic or Protestant, but the nationalists such as John Hume badly botched it.

    There are some improvements in the Continuous Household Survey for 1983-4 in that 20% of Catholics reported difficulty in paying rent compared to 14% of Protestants. That really doesn’t tell very much other than that, conversely, 80% of Catholics and 86% of Protestants didn’t report difficulty in paying rent. Given that the figures refer to social housing, there is only so much that taxpayers and the state can do.

    In regard to the latter, well, you could argue that if large numbers of poorer Catholics were deprived of economic opportunities then they’d emigrate; and if they emigrate, that’s less votes for an end to the union, but if that was a consideration then why were large numbers of poorer Protestants also deprived of economic opportunities? There is no way out of that contradiction.

    The former power of Stormont to alter the constitutional position of NI has been removed from the reconstituted Stormont so even if Catholics did become a majority at Stormont they could no longer threaten the union by virtue of holding political seats and, ergo, there is no longer any dynamic for pro-union power to conspire against them holding such offices. Where such conspiracies now exist (such as mono-tribal voting pacts) they exist not for any constitutional purpose but for purely sectarian purposes (i.e. so that one tribe can exclude the other tribe) and are practiced by both sides.

    But, at any rate, now that NI is heading for a population of 2 million, good luck with the old tricks and old tricksters…

  • Reader

    sonofstrongbow: Who’d have thought the dry administrative tool of a census would bring such fun? That it has driven some to apoplexies of paranoia about sneaky-beaky government departments snooping enhances the whole exercise for me.
    You aren’t seeing the whole picture. It was the republicans on Slugger that informed us about the moon landing hoax, and the 9/11 conspiracy. If a 10 page form that you fill in yourself once every ten years is a vital tool in the armoury of MI5, then it is the local republicans who will let us know.
    Or maybe there’s something in the Skunk on Provo turf?

  • tacapall

    “If a 10 page form that you fill in yourself once every ten years is a vital tool in the armoury of MI5, then it is the local republicans who will let us know.”

    Reader I just object to contributing to people who make a profit out of killing human beings.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/30/pacifists-and-the-census-form

    “On the day we had to return our forms, Gaza was being bombed by Lockheed Martin F16s.”

    “It means it’s once more illegal here for pacifists to follow their consciences: we face criminal records for refusing to collude with a company which deals wholesale in death.”

  • changeisneeded

    ignorance is bliss..

    good little sheep , fill in your forms..

  • Greenflag

    @ blues jazz ,

    ‘because ‘religion’ was the cause of the troubles’

    No it was’nt .Not directly anyway . Religious denomination provided a made to measure moniker for the outside world and indeed the inside world of NI, the Republic , and Britain to distinguish between the factions in the Troubles .

    As an atheist even I though I have criticised some aspects of the ‘way ‘ the religious hierarchy and some prominent politico religious figures have ‘acted’ or behaved from the beginning of the troubles in NI and in the history of the Republic since and before independence -I would have to state that the leaders of the main denominations , Catholic , Presbyterian, Church of Ireland , Methodists etc and even the Jewish Chief Rabbi have all been doing their best and speaking out against violence and they can take much credit for not making a bad situation worse by words which would /could have inflamed sectarian tensions .

    Bangordub is right i.e it was and is primarily a struggle about identity and territory and class and power and I would add ‘respect ‘ and tolerance for the ‘other”s beliefs and culture .

    I think one could also claim that the most ‘religious ‘ people of all denominations in NI -eschewed violence . The number of uber religious zealots who got involved directly in violence would have been miniscule . It was no Jihad as I’m sure even Alias will attest .

    Even now I ‘m unhappy using the Catholic /Protestant tag alls to describe NI politics -I prefer Unionist v Non Unionist or Nationalist /Republican /Loyalist even if these are sometimes crossover identities by which I mean they are not always mutually exclusive in terms of voting behaviours come election time.

    ‘When it (religion ) disappears (very shortly-at least among those under 40) so will the conflict.’

    It’s unlikely to disappear although it will reduce in signifance for the younger age groups . However among some of the new immigrant groups particularly Muslims it’s likely to remain an important part of their ‘identity’ for several generations at least . We can hope that a decline in ‘denominational ‘ strengths will take the edge off the political /constitutional divisions but it’s not guaranteed .

  • Greenflag

    @ Alias ‘

    ‘Given that the figures refer to social housing, there is only so much that taxpayers and the state can do.’

    I’m almost ready to reveal your last name as Romneyowitz ;)

    You can’t have large numbers of people living in North Western Europe ‘unhoused ‘ . When the wage or salary of many employees is not high enough to buy a house at current market prices or pay market rates for rental accomodation then ‘housing ‘ has to be provided or subsidized . There is no alternative unless you want to see women and children die of exposure .

    ‘In regard to the latter, well, you could argue that if large numbers of poorer Catholics were deprived of economic opportunities then they’d emigrate; ‘and if they emigrate, that’s less votes for an end to the union’

    And thats exactly what happened 1920 through to the mid 1980’s I suspect . Three times as many poorer ‘nationalists ‘ emigrated as ‘unionists ‘ .Had that not been the case the present NI State would have had a significant ‘nationalist ‘ majority by the mid 1960’s or even earlier .

    ‘ but if that was a consideration then why were large numbers of poorer Protestants also deprived of economic opportunities? ‘

    Because the economic cake within NI was only so big and given the West /East economic divide in NI it was inevitable that there would be more emigration from the majority catholic west than the majority protestant east of NI

    ‘There is no way out of that contradiction.’

    There is no contradiction other than in your own ‘muddled ‘ mind on this issue . The unionist establishment had no problem with ‘poor ‘ protestant emigration as long as it was balanced by three times as much poor or even not so poor catholic emigration . That way the threat of political opposition to monolithic Unionist party power from within the protestant community would be minimized and the threat from the large catholic minority neutered . Even then there was ‘poor ‘Protestant political opposition to the UP in the 1930’s and 1950’s at a time when ‘poor ‘or indeed any Catholic opposition given their non attendance and non recognition of Stormont’s legitimacy.

    Great strategy by the old UP until of course it blew up in their faces in 1968/69 .And now with Equal Employment opportunity laws , and a changing demographic and the de-industrialisation of the NI traditional economy the ‘employment niches ‘ once considered ‘unionist only ‘ have been opened up and in government administration the same has happened .

    ‘now that NI is heading for a population of 2 million, ‘

    And given that the Irish Republic’s population is estimated to reach 6.7 million by 2050 then presumably the population on the island as a whole will exceed the pre famine population of 8.5 million . And probably a million or more of those will be the descendants of the new immigrant populations both North and South .

    By then we’ll most likely be part of a Federal European Union and China will be the world’s biggest economy although probably not in terms of per capita income .That will probably still be Luxembourg or perhaps Singapore

  • Greenflag

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IrelandEuropePopulation1750.PNG

    A fascinating graph of Ireland’s unique demographic history as compared to the rest of Europe and thats ‘despite ‘the loss of probably 100 million plus lives lost in various wars/famines and genocides in Europe 1650 through 2000 AD .

    The graph shows the impact of not just the famine but the continuous outpouring of mass emigration from the ‘Ulster ‘exodus of 250,000 in the 18th century to the 1,000,000 people who left between 1900 and 1966 approx .

  • Reader

    Greeflag: Because the economic cake within NI was only so big and given the West /East economic divide in NI it was inevitable that there would be more emigration from the majority catholic west than the majority protestant east of NI
    There was west to east migration across the British Isles. From Donegal to Derry; from Derry to Belfast; from Belfast to London. Also, from Galway to Dublin, and from Dublin to London. You seem to be a bit selective about what is sinister, and what can be regarded as merely par for the course.
    Is Stormont to be blamed for not building a nationalised shipyard in Strabane?

  • Greenflag

    Reader ,

    I did’nt even use the word ‘sinister ‘ . Of course much of the emigration was par for the course but then that course had been set down as far back as the late 17th century when William Molyneaux’s spoke up for Ireland’s economic interest ‘The case for Ireland stated ‘and had his book /treatise burnt by the powers in London . Continuing trade restrictions against Irish commercial and manufacturing interests was one of the prime reasons as to how the country ended up in the 1840’s as a poverty stricken agriculture based economy with land ownership in the hands of a tiny minority and the bulk of the peasant population being ‘parasited ‘ upon by several layers of land agents and absentee landlords . BTW as well as east to west there was also north to south in Britain and from rural to urban and industrial areas . But in none of those example dis the population outflows have such an effect on the remaining country /regional populations as was the case in Ireland.

    references here

    http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Patriotism

    ‘Is Stormont to be blamed for not building a nationalised shipyard in Strabane?’

    No but even Derry’s Unionists protested at Stormont choosing Coleraine over Derry as the site for a second university .

  • Reader

    Greenflag: No but even Derry’s Unionists protested at Stormont choosing Coleraine over Derry as the site for a second university .
    I have been debating online for 20 years, and I have always passed that through on the nod. Not this time, though.
    1) Derry’s unionists were probably ahead of their time in regarding a new university as a job creation scheme rather than as an educational establishment. I can sympathise, but I don’t support their case.
    2) It may be obvious to Derry wans that Derry is the obvious location for a second university. But the population was, and is, concentrated in the east of NI, and, going on the 18 constituencies as proxies for population distribution, both Coleraine and Omagh have a better case than Derry as the location for the 2nd university. Maybe it looks different if you think NI should be educating Donegal and Sligo, but clearly Stormont wasn’t playing that game.
    3) Of course, you could be quite right about the Stormont mentality. That doesn’t mean they were wrong.

  • Greenflag

    Reader ,

    1) Here it looks like you allowing hindsight to win out over an earlier insight .

    2) It was an opportunity for decentralisation within NI and would have been more than just a symbolic gesture . As for educating Donegal and Sligo ? well why not as long as the fees are paid by the parents or ROI Government .

    In any event it hardly matters as this TUV Allister piece on under representation of Unionists in 3rd level institutions in NI makes clear . As to Stormont not playing the game of educating Donegal and Sligo back then much has changed as nowadays neither Universities could remain open without the huge influx of 3rd level students from south of the border and not just Donegal or Sligo ..

    http://www.tuv.org.uk/press-releases/view/1339/allister-highlights-protestant-under-representation-at-universities

    3) Could be quite right -eh no I’ll be somewhat immodest accuse myself of being actually right . As to ‘that doesn’t mean they were wrong.’ ? Of course from a ruling ‘unionist ‘ point of view and perhaps even from a pure numbers calculation viewpoint such as you suggest above it may have been the better decision . I believe it was a missed opportunity for the then Unionist Government to display some official recognition and respect to the large minority community west of the Bann and particularly to NI’s second most populous city .

  • Reader

    OK then, that’s settled: the failure to make an essentially symbolic gesture is clear evidence of discrimination.
    There was a lot of it about back then, wasn’t there?

  • Greenflag

    reader ,

    Politics is not conducted along the lines of a courtroom proceedings . Symbols are important ask any OO Lodge . And yes there was a lot of discrimination back then -there is certainly more than enough official reports etc on it’s prevalence in certain sectors of government and business .

    But I would’nt go as far as you in stating that the failure to make an essentially symbolic gesture is clear evidence of discrimination .

    Instead I’d suggest that it was clear evidence of the Old Unionist Party’s lack of empathy /political nous ‘ . You could I suppose based on your numerical and population district figures even accuse them of being hard headed to the point of being cement heads in basic political skills .

    The evidence for which I’ll just point to the current state of said party .

  • tacapall

    “Ten years ago nothing was more eagerly awaited [than the collapse of Stormont”

    http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local/prince-charles-secret-ni-letters-written-at-time-of-thompson-and-mccartney-murders-1-4299085

    Prince Charles’ secret NI letters written at time of Thompson and McCartney murders

    “JUDGES have ordered the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) to disclose correspondence between Prince Charles and former Secretary of State Paul Murphy during a troubled seven month period that witnessed the murder of 22-year-old Darren Thompson in Londonderry as well as the Northern Bank Robbery and the outing of Denis Donaldson as a spy.

    The ruling follows an appeal by English reporter Rob Evans who has applied for access to the ‘advocacy’ letters written by the heir to the throne between September 2004 and April 2005.

    The contents of the confidential letters have remained secret up until now but will have been informed by a turbulent period when devolution was suspended.”

    Are we going to hear Charlie interfered in the affairs of the Assembly ?

  • Reader

    tacapall: Are we going to hear Charlie interfered in the affairs of the Assembly ?
    No – there was no Assembly between 2002 and 2007. Northern Ireland was under Direct Rule at the time of the letters being sent. If you had read the last line of your quote you would have known that.

  • Dewi

    Astonishing that the figures take so long to publish in these days,

  • oakleaf

    Ulick:

    ” I feel your pain. I live in east Belfast myself. St. Bernards, St. Michael’s, Holy Rosary and St. Joseph’s are all busting at the seams, though we’re hoping to cross the river and get ours into a good secular primary – Scoil an Droichid on the Ormeau.”

    Surely there would have been far bigger pupil numbers 20 years ago and there was more than enough places then?