What’s eating Ardoyne: Slugger’s first public Google+ discussion

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As luck would have it, Slugger was down for a few hours yesterday, just as we were recording our first Google Plus Hangout on Air over lunch time… A second blow was not getting Chris Donnelly in to the discussion (tech hitches meant he couldn’t get in on time), so as a result there’s an important Republican perspective missing from this discussion…

One of the technical hitches that occurred during the recording is that because one of the silent participants joined us from a noisey cafe in Turkey, we get to see a great deal of John Pollock and virtually nothing of the others… That’s something to try to improve upon before Friday Slugger’s first Digital Lunch

Lee makes a point that in fact Barney Rowan dismisses in his analysis of the Ardoyne stand off, ie that the public highway should be a shared rather than neutral space. Barney suggests:

maybe the challenge is to try to turn this space into a neutral area. That would mean no parades, no protests and, therefore, no huge security operations.

For the Orange Order, the challenge would be to think differently than the right to walk and traditional routes, in the same way that the DUP and Sinn Fein had to change their words.

And it would not be a climb-down, but a victory for leadership – and something that would pull the rug out from under the feet of the dissidents.

That’s not quite the view Lee shares in the Hangout or in the unionist community in general… There are plenty of questions still to go around here… Like where is the political way out of this impasse?

And for those in the Orange who understandably ask why they are blamed for riots they did not have not started for a number of years, their leadership might look again at the incident outside St Patricks fortuitously filmed by a Sinn Fein activists; and the utter breach of the values so publicly espoused by the Orange itself.

Rowan makes the less controversial point (and one that the hangout segues into towards the end) that most of north Belfast was quiet and simply did not get involved in either protest or parades. Whatever the shrill micro politics of Ardoyne, the rest of Belfast is quietly moving on…

In quite a number of interesting ways…

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  • Better Together

    Mick

    One of the most interesting aspects of this discussion came from Lee Reynolds, when he pointed out the significant compromises already made to this period in terms of music, bands, standards etc, not to mention cancelling similar return legs for the ABOD and RBP. It definitely provokes interesting questions about the balance of compromise, when one considers that the parade now walks silently past.

    I was tearing my hair out RE the church band incident as it spoiled what should have been a well-handled crisis by the OO. Instead of throwing the light unto the dissidents, we know have an unwelcome distraction with bad headlines for the wider culture.

  • Better Together

    *now have an unwelcome…..

  • andnowwhat

    Well there’s the thing Better Together, what’s (not) eating the Apprentice Boys of Derry ? Or maybe it’s what’s (not) eating Derry?
    We know that there’s overt 2000 (more I think) examples of what a traditional parade looks like and would the protesters in Ardoyne be willing to accept such a parade passing and would the lodges be happy enough with that?

    I haven’t seen it mentioned yet but I think Brian Kennaway’s comment on The Sunday Politics about remembering protests against marches in N Belfast many, many years ago is a salient one.

  • Jagdip

    Mick,

    Was as much interested in the format of the event as the content, and was disappointed the site was down at the time, but caught the later youtube recording. Don’t take any of this personally but

    1. Would help if contributors were in quiet environment and didn’t have background noise, and that includes typing on their keyboards. The sound quality was not great but mostly because of these unwanted noises.
    2. Not sure if Mick had notes prepared in advance of the issues to be dealt with, but at times, the discussion seemed to wander and questions were sometimes unclear as evidenced by contributors being confused.
    3. Mick was the star, but for most of the show, it was Chris who appeared in the big window.

    But when one contributor made the point that they had never discussed the issues face to face in this manner before, you could see the potential of this format where there were 40 mins of civilised exchanges and where there seemed to be some progress in understanding positions. And this more than offset the technical issues.

    Look forward to more, and particularly seeing/hearing the event live.

  • Mick Fealty

    Jagdip,

    Amen to all of that… There are lots of tools that will help with noises… I think for instance if we have non contributors in I now have a tool to blank them from the live feed to YouTube…

    I did have a script of sorts in hand, but it got parted from quite early and was slightly screwed by the fact Chris could not participate… I’m hoping that we’ll do more and more of this…

    It’s more fun than blogging, and hopefully as useful… I really like the multiplicity of voice…

    There’s demands for brevity and to-the-pointness on YouTube that’s hard to cater for in a live recording…

    You should try to join us on Friday… Just circle me on G+ at gplus.to/mickfealty

  • Better Together

    andnowhat,

    I think the salient difference is that we now live in an environment much touted as being in pursuit of equality and a shared future; Rev. Kennaway was addressing protests in the 1970s as the brutality of the early troubles was at its height. One could similarly say that attitudes pre-troubles to loyal order parades were somewhat different also. I think the important issue is how does the actions of those at Ardoyne square with the concept of shared space, something even SF made a great play of in relation to Girdwood. I note that JJ Magee even refers to Donegall Street as an extension of the New Lodge area and that it is ‘their road’.

    If people say that Orange parades are territorial displays then surely seeking to envelope arterial routes into sealed ‘no go’ areas is in itself terrirtorial? He said there was no solution there that did not involve Protestants, one would think Ardoyne is the same?

    With regards to the video, I thoroughly enjoyed watching it last night, with the notable exception of a republican voice as Mick has alluded to. Is the plan to run these on a rolling basis Mick?

  • Better Together

    Gerry Kelly said there was no solution that did not involve protestants.

  • Local hack

    The problem with Ardoyne, that many people do not point to – is that for many of the rioters, it is just an excuse to get out and do some rioting.

    Plus when you have very senior politicians out beasically gaoding people on to fight for their right to march/protest – then you may as well.

    Nigel Dodds was out lambasting the Parades Commission for its decision on the 11th night – saying they should all be sacked.

    Red rags to the bulls.

    And since the ‘Glorious Twelfth’ Nelson McCausland has come out in defence of a band playing sectarian songs – stoking the fires.

    They both should be ashamed.

    I am mistaken in thinking our politicians were given the opportunity to do away with the Parades Commission and tasked with coming up with a solution and the result was so laughable that they had to reinstate the commission?

    They need to look at themselves, for their actions and inactions, they have put shame on the NI community for what has happened in the past week!

    Rant over

  • HeinzGuderian

    dup ministers,the oo,or Unionists in ardoyne,can hardly be blamed for the riotous behaviour of sectarian thugs.

    The outward bound parade passed silently,and peacefully,as the homeward bound parade should have done !

    )n the 11th of July I stated I had absolutely no interest in watching any bands/parades/demonstrations (I mean to say,what are the oo ‘demonstrating’ about anyway) ?
    My advice then was a) If you want to go and see the bands,by all means do so,and enjoy your day out.
    b) If you don’t want anything to do with the bands/have absolutely no interest in it,then do as I did,don’t go to watch them.

    Some of our nat/rep chums complain about the BBC coverage of The Twelfth in the morning. I,personally,was watching the Scottish Open.

    Reading through the recent threads on these issues,you can’t help but wonder at people who claim to abhor all things orange/Unionist/protestant………yet can’t seem to get enough of ‘themuns’ ?

    Curiouser and curiouser.

  • dwatch

    “They both should be ashamed.”

    Not in the least, Nigel & Nelson just love such a platform. After all, this is were these two DUP well known North Belfast get all their votes to keep them in office.

  • Fergie Pie

    Dwatch,

    Your comment has me wondering if it was actually JJ Magee who filmed the band or was the footage given to him to help boost his profile in the area after his electoral rejection last year?

    He’s certainly got some good publicity out of it all while bashing ‘themmuns’ – certainly a vote winner among Nationalists in N Belfast.

  • dwatch

    Indeed Fergie Pie, but its a much deeper than that. Nigel & Nelson want to be sure they win their seats in the next election for both Westminster and Stormont for the DUP. The extra votes they are after to secure their seats in the next government are UUP supporters in loyalist areas of the Shankill, Highfield, & Glencairn These electoral areas will be moving into North Belfast from West Belfast in the new boundary changes. No UUP politicians from anywhere in Belfast came out in the media to support the YCV band or the OO parade at Ardoyne. To think 10 years ago the UUP & OO were like two siamese. Now many members of the OO, especially in Belfast have changed over to support the DUP.

  • Fergie Pie

    Has it ever occurred to you that the likes of Nelson McCausland actually believe what they say?

    I’m no DUPer but my take on the whole incident is exactly the same as Nelson’s.

  • ayeYerMa

    Why is a “Republican perspective” important? We don’t live in a Republic!

  • Comrade Stalin

    dwatch,

    The trouble with that theory is that there really is no electoral force to challenge the DUP in those parts of turn. Are they all going to switch to the UUP if the DUP start going a bit softer over parading ? I’m not sure.

  • http://www.e-consultation.org/ davenewman

    It would be interesting to find out how many voters for politicians of all stripes are mobilised by paramilitaries on election days. That would create an incentive for a politician to support even the worst acts of the local thugs.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    The republican part of Ardoyne has two issues as I see it. 1) Housing 2) Control.

    The loyalist part has several issues, but no specific issue as I see it.

    On the Housing issue. I’m not quite sure, but around 1999/2000 there was a report from the Housing Executive detailing the issues around housing in Northern Ireland. They detailed where housing was coming under pressure, and one of the areas that was critical was the republican part of Ardoyne.

    The HE report highlighted an interesting fact; republicans/nationalists don’t want to move away from areas where they grew up, unlike the PUL community. Obviously this reluctance to move away will have an accumulative effect, putting massive pressure on the limited existing housing stock within any given area. Especially the republican part of Ardoyne, as they have nowhere to expand into and can’t regenerate as this would further reduce the existing housing stock. The place is now a Pressure cooker!!!

    (As an aside some of those who did move from the n/r part of Ardoyne moved to Crumlin village and Ligoniel. This is why Crumlin village, has changed from a predominately unionist/loyalist village to a nationalist/republican village. Sinn Fein’s Martin Meehan was moved from his Ardoyne constituency to Crumlin).

    Here is where the republican posters will start whining. If republicans don’t like what I am saying and don’t like the PUL side of the Ardoyne story, well that’s too bad. I’m going to tell it. The PUL community are all too well used to having our voice and views ignored and marginalized. So here is my two pence worth.

    Housing was the catalysis for the Holy Cross dispute. Let me state at this point, what happened to the children was wholly wrong. The protest was not with children, and never was. It was with the adults going to and from the school. The children were never the targets however they were put in harm’s way on the front line, they were the innocent pawns in the dispute between adults. Compromise on both sides was in very short supply; hence the children were the innocent pawns in the eye of the storm.

    Over many years republicans both male and female, shinners, provos and ordinary republicans, were all coming into the loyalist part of Ardoyne, to go to and from the Holy Cross School, taking and picking up children. For years when they were dropping off and picking up the children the republican adults were intimidating the local loyalist population, both adult and children.

    They would verbally attack and on many occasions physically attack loyalist residents, also attacking homes, property and cars.
    An example would be a car load of 3 or 4 republicans’ sometimes senior republicans would enter the area on the pretext of dropping off or picking up a child from the school. On the way up or more generally as they were going back down into their part of Ardoyne, they would verbally or physically attack the loyalist residents and their property. There was intimidation of OAP’s and other loyalists, going to and using the post office, shops and library and those PUL’s making their way to the Woodvale area. One of the most frequent taunts to the residents got “this time next year we will be living in your house, don’t fucking wreak it or burn it”!

    The school buses going to and coming from the Boys and Girls Model schools were attacked passing the shops on the Crumlin road. In one incident a schoolboy from the Boys Model, was making his way home to the Woodvale road on foot after football training at school. As he got to the shops he was attacked and hospitalised, the attack left him with a badly broken jaw.

    The breaking point was when 3 republicans in a car came up the loyalist part of the Ardoyne road heading to the school at school pick up time. They then attacked 3 loyalist residents, hospitalising 2.

    The 3 loyalists were working on the loyalist part of the Ardoyne road. Two were holding a ladder while the other was up the ladder. As the republicans were driving up the Ardoyne road they drove at the loyalists mounting the kerb, knocking one down knocking the ladder away. The guy up the ladder was thrown off and fell to the ground. The republicans then got out of the car and attacked all 3 hospitalising 2, one had a broken leg.

    Local residents then came out to assist the loyalists being attacked, the republicans then took the ladder using it as a weapon to put it through a car windscreen and house front window.

    The next day the protest started.

    This formed a sustained, on-going and continuous attack on the small loyalist community of Ardoyne. At the same time there were constant attacks on the smaller and isolated PUL community at Torrens off the Oldpark road adjacent to Oldpark road RUC station. There is now no PUL community at Torrens the last of the PUL residents being burnt out several years ago. The old PUL housing stock has been knocked down and a new republican social housing development put in its place.

    The loyalist communities complained continually to the RUC about the violence. The RUC’s response was to send a land rover to sit on the Ardoyne road for a few days. The PUL communities contacted the media, BBC talk back, the Tele, and UTV, on countless occasions to highlight their plight but the media were not interested. Only the Shankill Mirror and the News Letter printed articles on the attacks.

    All that sets the background, because while all that was going on there was an on-going regeneration of the loyalist part of Ardoyne. As a result of the regeneration, many of the older more populated streets, similar to the housing stock that is currently in the republican part of Ardoyne, was demolished and new houses were being built. The original housing being generally occupied by older residents, however when the new housing was built it was mainly younger families that where moving in, giving the area a new vibrant younger feel.

    However the pressure on the republican Ardoyne housing stock is now as it was then immense, with no possible expansion apart from into the PUL area. There is no possibility of regeneration within republican Ardoyne area, as that would reduce the existing housing stock and that would not be tolerated. So the republicans are on the horns of a dilemma. They can’t regenerate and they can’t expand??? That is why I believe the parades issue is now centre stage.
    I feel republicans are using the parades to create a situation where the greater Ardoyne and greater Ballsillan PUL feel isolated and marginalized and will start to move out and they move in.

    This leads onto the second issue in the republican part of Ardoyne, the one of control.

    Sinn Fein had an iron like grip of Ardoyne, controlling the area and turning on and off rioting as they saw fit. As the peace process developed the parades protests started. They were small scale at the start, but ironically the longer the peace process went on the more intense the parade protests became with rioting. The genie was now out of the bottle.

    The next issue was the falling out of republicans because of policing.
    The iron grip that the shinners and provos had is now no more. They can’t control the parades issue or the media message. Young republican’s that were controlled by Gerry Kelly, and other senior shinners and provos, now have other militant republican groups that will give legitimatisation to their violence.

    The new breed of young Ardoyne republicans have no fear of the shinners or provos, telling the likes of Bobby Story that he is “yesterday’s man”, and to “go home old man” and shouting “Ye Haw old man” in his face.

    These groups are in direct conflict with the shinners in Ardoyne. Read Martin Meehan’s blog “Ardoyne republican” to see the two sides are set on a collision course. The more militant republicans seem to be out manoeuvring Gerry Kelly and the shinners and gaining influence. As seen by the shinners protest at the shops on the 12th a relatively small protest yet in the afternoon the other republican grouping was able to bring thousands onto the streets. Changed days in republican Ardoyne indeed???

    Obviously in the good old days the shinners and provos would have had a “night of the long knives” to sort out the issues and remove the problems. However the problem is that many they would need to remove are former provos, and that is not likely. Reading between the lines I don’t think the shinners have the same support as they used to, certainly not in Ardoyne.

    But I’m just a shopper and bystander from up the road.

  • Fergie Pie

    The past has repeatedly shown us that where there are disputes and power struggles between Nationalist groups it is always the innocent protestants nearby who bear the brunt as each side try to play up their ‘credentials’ by attacking ‘themmuns’.

    You can almost set your watch by it.

    I would not like to be a protestant living in Glenbryn or Twaddell at present. Dangerous times.

  • Mister_Joe

    Fergie,

    I think you either need a reality check or else cut down on what you are having.

  • andnowwhat

    Whilst I have serious issues on what Ardoyne Unionist said about the Holy Cross, he does have a great point in that dissidents really, really don’t give a toss about any other republicans, let alone unionists.

    This attitude first came to my attention with the TV broadcast of a bunch of them attacking a SF rep who was an ex prisoner (Mid Ulster, I think it was in). The dissidents are IMHO trying to replicate the beginning of the troubles and I’ve always thought that one of the young rioters getting killed would give them a right collective boner. Did the fek’n feak who was shooting at the cops care about the consequences?

    At the other end, politicians, of all shades, need to think before they open their traps.As pointed out above, Dodds, Mc Causland and Robinson did not remotely help. SF have been very weak on the issue and giving direction. I know what the unionists are at but the shinners leave me at a loss. Far from mirroring the rants of the DUP men, they must also be seen to give strong but fair representation on the matter. What they are doing instead is leaving the door open for dissidents to grow.

  • carl marks

    Just a point for Ardoyne Unionist re housing as I watched the Holy Cross protest on the TV i seen a group of thugs screaming abuse at the kids going to school they were standing in the doorway of the house that my Aunt, Uncle and their young family were driven out off along with the other Catholics (approx 20% of the population) by a loyalist mob.
    And also your history of the holy cross dispute might be what you would like to think happened this whole fiction of a community of decent people forced to defend themselves against incursion from republicans into their area (so much for freedom to walk the queens highway) is disproved when you look at the rabid hatred on the faces of the protesters that depth of venom directed at young girls cannot be explained away by reluctant defence.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Carl,

    I will not defend the actions of those that screamed at the children. I have already said it was “wholly wrong”.

    As for relatives who were put out of houses or burnt, I can relate to you many stories that are exactly the same from the PUL community, from those that lived in what is now the republican part of Ardoyne.

    As for your disingenuous remark about waling the queen’s highway, Holy Cross School has been at that site from the 60’s, and there has never been any attempt to stop the children going to school. I myself went to school near Ardoyne from the early 70’s and I can give you plenty of occasions when republicans tried to deny me access to my school.

    As for the charge of a “reluctant defence”, the thread was on “what’s eating Ardoyne” and I gave my view, and as I stated at the start of it republicans would whine.

    I am telling you what I see are the issues in the republican part of Ardoyne and they have been identified in the Housing Executive report, (I’m Sorry I never kept the report) there is history. However each event can’t be seen in isolation, they are intertwined and the Holy Cross dispute was part of that. A nasty part but part of the wider republican Ardoyne housing issue.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    andnowwhat, what are your serious issues on the Holy Cross dispute?

    If you want to give us the information that is known to you, I will try to address them. I will not shrink from giving criticism where it is needed, and that includes the PUL community, as you have seen with my clear and unequivocal “wholly wrong” statement.

    As always with these things it is never as clear cut as it appears or is made up in the media. As I described in my piece above there was and still is to this day a continuing campaign of harassment and now thankfully, only low level violence emanating from the republican part of Ardoyne, riots and shootings as side.

    However if you’re only going to go over the same ground and tell the world again that the children were victims there is no point.
    Again as I said above, and I will state here again and as many times as you like, any sane person would agree, that what happened to the children was “wholly wrong”!

    However I will reiterate the point, the dispute the PUL community had, was not with any child. It was with their parents and the republicans, sometimes senior republicans who where accessing the PUL part of the Ardoyne and engaged in a sustained and continuous attack on the small PUL community of Ardoyne.

    The PUL community did not want nor put the Holy Cross children in the front line of the dispute. That was a decision taken, I can only assume by the parents of the children?

    As for republicans not giving a toss? It’s not just the dissident types as you describe them, that don’t give a toss for the PUL community in Ardoyne or North Belfast. Mainstream republicans namely Sinn Fein are very much trying to undermine the PUL community right across North Belfast.

    The SDLP while not cheerleaders for the PUL community, appear to be much more understanding and amenable to work with.

  • Republic of Connaught

    I love where the girl in the video says “go down south and you’ll lose your housing benefits” as a reason for voting unionist.

    I’m sure the Irish government can’t wait to take on people so eager to make a ‘contribution’ to Irish society and the British government will really hate to lose them.

  • Alan N/Ards

    Without getting into the rights or the wrongs of the Holy Cross dispute, I as a parent could not understand parents taking their children through what can only described as violent mob. There is absolutely nothing that would make me take my children into or anywhere near a situation like that. These children, in my eyes, were abused by the mob, their parents and probably by clever “politicians” looking for a propaganda coup.

  • andnowwhat

    Alan, the cops should have lifted any loyalist shouting at children, and all the rest.

  • Alias

    Good post, ArdoyneUnionist.

    I don’t know enough about the statistics to comment on your first claim (the attempt by the nationalist community to force the PUL community to leave the area so that the nationalist community can expand into the homes vacated by them) but the second claim is self-evidently an essential part of the unstable mix.

    The Shinners were expected to act as a state-sponsored vigilante group that was to ‘police’ the catholic community by unorthodox – but very effective – methods. They have not been able to perform that function on behalf of the British state in Ardoyne.

    That is because Ardoyne has largely opted-out of the ‘peace process.’ Another consequence of having active paramilitaries in the area is that the loyalists have not been able to fully ‘stand down’ either, with the protestant community feeling that they may be needed to protect them from the nationalists. In effect, both communities are still in pre-ceasefire mode, de facto if not de jure.

    Since the active paramilitaries require support, they acquire that support in the same way that the Shinners acquired it: by attacking the protestants, knowing full well that they’ll retaliate against the catholics, with the catholics then thinking that they need the active paramilitaries to protect them from the loyalists.

  • carl marks

    ArdoyneUnionist
    Housing is an issue in Nationalist Ardoyne but to suggest that it is the reason or even part of the reason for the parading problems is way of the mark. Also to think that the whole issue was started by SF is wrong, they did organise it but didn’t invent the resentment that was felt by nationalists over the behaviour displayed during the 12th. I will give 2 recent examples and not mention them again on this thread, nearly every bonfire I see has Irish flags on them and many have sectarian comments daubed on them (one on the shankill had Catholic religious symbols), the St Pats Band thing.
    Behaviour like this is not acceptable and if the PUL community wish seriously to solve this problem it will have to stop or at the very least be robustly condemned by the leaders of that community.
    Orange Parades have always been a source of contention, check out the history books. While I can see your problem with seeing people you associate with a organisation that has done great harm to your community passing through or past it but in North Belfast and around Ardoyne Loyalists, have done great harm to the nationalist community. The people of Ardoyne also have difficulties with seeing loyalists many of whom are known to have been in terror groups walking as Orangemen, Band members, and coat trailing at these parades, some among those who insist on the right to walk past Ardoyne were involved in the Holy Cross issue.
    Condemning the Holy cross protest is good but claiming that it not part of the many things that have over the years brought us to where we are, that would be wrong. If I was to state that the Shankill bomb was wrong but has nothing to do with where we are at now I would be patently wrong.
    The simple matter of fact is that both communities have been hurt and both communities are to blame, even today a constant low level of attacks takes place on both sides not just one.
    I think it was Winston Churchill who said “Jaw Jaw better than War War , and the longer the OO fails to recognise that the residents have issues that need to be addressed and go and discuss it with them then the stronger the dissidents will become.
    Those are my concerns and opinions and I believe by and large the concerns of most of the population of Nationalist Ardoyne.
    I would hear yours and although I am probably (only on slugger i promise) one of the worst offenders we must stop ranting at each and start talking, while it may not be possible for a long while to forget all the harm done we (again both sides) could maybe find a way to work round it.

  • carl marks

    ayeYerMa (profile)
    18 July 2012 at 7:09 pm

    “Why is a “Republican perspective” important? We don’t live in a Republic!”

    Again republicans have no right to be heard, this attitude in not unique in this place and historically it’s a major part of the problem. To believe that the opinions of nearly half of the population are not to be taken into account sounds more like what would be expected of a supporter of Apartheid than someone who would claim to be a democrat.

  • Fergie Pie

    carl marks (profile)
    20 July 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Again republicans have no right to be heard, this attitude in not unique in this place and historically it’s a major part of the problem. To believe that the opinions of nearly half of the population are not to be taken into account sounds more like what would be expected of a supporter of Apartheid than someone who would claim to be a democrat.

    - – -

    It would help if the people you refer to ‘labeled’ themselves correctly.

    They are Irish Nationalists – not Irish Republicans. Anyone with a titter of wit knows the difference.

  • carl marks

    Fergie Pie
    “It would help if the people you refer to ‘labeled’ themselves correctly.

    They are Irish Nationalists – not Irish Republicans. Anyone with a titter of wit knows the difference.”

    Irish Nationalists (99%) believe in a Irish Republic hence they are republicans.But apart from that little point I’m afraid I just don’t see what you’re getting at.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    So Carl, we have stopped all parades and poured cold water on all the bonfires, We have now solved all of the republican part of Ardoyne’s problems???

    No more PUL marching and bonfires.

    Now that we have done that, now comes the easy part.

    How do we address the housing issue for the republican residents of Ardoyne???

    The majority of whom who for their own reasons, refuse to move to other areas???

    How do we squeezed them into an already overpopulated area and regenerate the housing stock???

    As for the new housing stock how do we construct them into the existing area without mass depopulation???

    Where do the displaced go???

    When they want to move back who is going to tell them that they can’ move back??? Because there is not the density of housing as before and they will have to stay where they are or go somewhere else!!!

    This feeds into the other issue, what republican grouping is going to make those decisions???

    I would be keen if you could forward more information on the “loyalists many of whom are known to have been in terror groups walking as Orangemen, Band members, and coat trailing at these parades, some among those who insist on the right to walk past Ardoyne were involved in the Holy Cross issue”.

  • Fergie Pie

    carl marks (profile)
    20 July 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Irish Nationalists (99%) believe in a Irish Republic hence they are republicans.But apart from that little point I’m afraid I just don’t see what you’re getting at.

    - – - –

    carl,

    A ‘Republican’ would not force the British monarchy out of Ireland only to hand over control of the state to an unelected cabal of catholic priests.

    The people you refer to would be the most fervent monarchists in he British Isles if the head of state was a catholic. They are not ‘Republicans’ in the true sense of the word – but Irish Nationalists.

  • Mister_Joe

    What a mind reader you are Fergie Pie. How much do you charge for a “consultation”?

  • carl marks

    Fergie want to tell me how you know this, I am a republican, A Irish republican it matters not a jot to me the religion of the British Monarch, I aspire towards a Irish republic free of British Control and with the head of state a elected president.
    This aspiration is uniform among Irish republicans both the Catholic and the Non Catholic (I’m not a Catholic by the way) share it. It is why they call themselves Irish Republicans.

  • carl marks

    Again with the housing thing, yes it is a serious issue facing North Belfast but while it might suit some to try to weave it into some sort of grand conspiracy theory to enable them to play the innocent party, it won’t wash. If you honestly believe it I’m sorry but you’re wrong.
    As i said before what we have here are two communities who have suffered greatly and the memories are painful to both.
    The line,
    “we have stopped all parades and poured cold water on all the bonfires, We have now solved all of the republican part of Ardoyne’s problems???
    No more PUL marching and bonfires.
    Now that we have done that, now comes the easy part. “
    This represents a mindset of all or nothing. Why should all the result of talks be the end of marches or bonfires? Do you have no faith in the negotiating skill of your leaders?
    As to those who parade that I mentioned, people in Ardoyne know the faces of those who are loyalists and those who went to prison for many serious offences and they know the faces of those who screamed abuse at their children and they see these faces going past on the 12th .
    This debate will never get off the ground until both sides face up to the simple truth that both sides helped make the problem and denial is something you will have to get past.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Carl,

    you are of course correct there is no “grand conspiracy”!!!

    Yes you’ve seen right through me I’m playing “the innocent party”!!!

    The republican protesters know the faces of Loyalists and those that screamed abuse at the children!!!

    My politicians are crap at negotiating!!!

    And we are all victims!!!

    After all that Carl can you enlighten us as to “What’s eating Ardoyne”!!!!

  • carl marks

    I thought I did in regards to the parading issue, read my posts again. Or better still a good place to start would be the library, I’m sure there are many excellent books that deal with the history of political and religious strife in the North, that will show you that violence around OO parades is as old as OO parades and both sides have a hand in it.
    It is to be regretted that you see fit to use sarcasm to counter my argument mainly in that i am interested in getting to the core of your concerns. The only message I’m getting is it seems to be a territorial thing you seem concerned with losing historic space to the other tribe. If that is true then it is a sad indictment of our society that while some people need houses others will deny it to them because of their religion. What can we do to get beyond this.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Thanks Carl, we all know know “what’s eating Ardoyne”, its the parades. I thought so.

    “A territorial thing”!!! You may have stumbled onto something there. Why is it for over 40 odd years, the larger republicans part of Ardoyne, felt the need to try and forcibly remove the PUL community???

    “You seem concerned with losing historic space to the other tribe”!!! I get you now the PUL community should move away and invite those who are having housing difficulties to take our homes!!! Maybe we could redraw the whole map of Belfast while we are at it???

    “That while some people need houses others will deny it to them because of their religion”!!! I hope you are not directing that statement at the PLU community of Ardoyne. We are denying no one a house.

    See we are making progress, its parades and the PLU community, who are are denying territory therefore housing to republicans, that is “what’s eating Ardoyne”!!!

  • carl marks

    Oh dear, we aren’t getting anywhere are we.
    That us put a few facts out there firstly “the larger republican part of Ardoyne” the republican area of Ardoyne is surrounded by Twaddel (connected to Ballygomartin and the large grouping of loyalist areas there), the Wooddale(connected to the shankill) Hesketh(connected to Silver stream and Ballysillen) so less of the larger republican Ardoyne nonsense go look at a map. This is the correct definition of an enclave.
    Nobody’s talking about or thinking of taking your homes we are talking about building new homes for those who need them and there are many empty houses in and around north Belfast why should much needed housing be built there.
    Its late I’m away to bed nite nite.

  • carl marks

    second last line should read
    why should much needed housing not be built there.

  • ayeYerMa

    Carl Marks,

    No all-island “Republic”/”Nation” exists in any sense other than fantasy, nor is likely to exist in the current generation, nor the generation after that. Therefore why on any given topic do much of our media and political commentators insist on getting “Republican”/”Nationalist” perspectives given that we are not discussing the monarchy nor constitutional change?

    It simply is weird. For as long as our media/commentators treat us in an abnormal way the longer we shall remain abnormal.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Carl, thanks but no need for the geography lesson.!!! One thing I can deduce form your poor geography and spelling you obviously don’t live or know this area as well as you think you do.

    One thing that no one can claim is that the republican part of Ardoyne is surrounded. Not the shinners or the rioting and shooting republican types would get away with making that ridiculous claim.

    “we are talking about building new homes for those who need them and there are many empty houses in and around north Belfast why should much needed housing be built there”.

    Can you enlighten us as to where all these empty houses are for republicans?

    I have to ask, have you not been reading my posts.
    There is no where for republicans to expand into to build those new houses you speak about. That is one part of the republican housing problem!!!

    Nowhere in Ardoyne, the Bone, Torrens (that only a few years ago this was a PUL community, until they were intimidated out), Oldpark, Cliftonville, Newlodge, Duncairn Gardens or the Antrim road.

    Now we are back to square one and the original point of my post.

    This is why there has been a sustained campaign of republican violence visited on the PUL Ardoyne community from republicans in the other part of Ardoyne!!!

  • Alias

    “This is why there has been a sustained campaign of republican violence visited on the PUL Ardoyne community from republicans in the other part of Ardoyne!!!”

    Tomás Mac Giolla, former head Stickie, gave a more likely reason 25 years ago:

    “As I said last week, the Provisionals have always relied for their influence among Catholics on creating an atmosphere where they can masquerade as the defenders of the Catholic community. They are hoping, therefore, for attacks and retaliation by Protestant paramilitaries so that they can be seen to defend the Catholic community. Time after time they have gone out and engaged in vile sectarian murders knowing that they would provoke a reaction from the paramilitaries leading to more fear and more terror in Catholic areas and leading people to believe that they needed the Provos to protect them.”

    It is a tried-and-tested tactic to grow support for paramilitaries among the Catholics. What they do is set up their own tribe to be attacked/murdered by the other tribe by attacking that other tribe, knowing that the other tribe will retaliate. When the other tribe duly retaliates, the Catholics then think they need the paramilitaries to protect them.

    Essentially, the tactic allows the paramilitaries to masquerade as defenders of their tribe, when the reality is that they deliberately set-up their own tribe up to be attacked. Deliberate sectarian attacks on Protestants such as Enniskillen (which Mac Giolla was referring to) are disguised as ‘accidents’ so as not to alert the Catholics to the deliberate tactic.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Never mind Ardoyne, what’s eating Derry???

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Toasted, part of what happing in the republican part of Ardoyne. The shinners are losing their grip….As I made clear in my first piece.

    The piece below is taken from the Daily Telegraph, after the 2010 riots and shootings at republican Ardoyne.

    “It was a brief verbal exchange that spoke volumes. By a burned-out car that still smouldered, its blackened bonnet strewn with broken bottles that the night before had been fashioned into lethal Molotov cocktails and hurled at police officers, the pair stood face to face, only inches apart. One, grey-haired and balding, 6ft 4in with a distinctly age-stooped gait, folded his arms across his chest and narrowed his eyes in a flinty glare. The other, a swaggering teenager in a hoodie, his face swathed in a Manchester United scarf to conceal his identity, stared straight back. “Shove off, old man,” he said mockingly. “Sure, you sold out your community. Just so that the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness could parade about in posh suits and sit up in Stormont. What do they care about the Ardoyne now? You lot don’t speak for us any more. Why don’t you just f––– off.”
    It wasn’t the response the older man, Bobby Storey, had expected. Nor the reaction to which he was accustomed. Storey, a veteran IRA man, a legendary godfather of terror in the nationalist heartland of north Belfast, is not a man many would challenge.
    Known in paramilitary parlance as “The Enforcer”, Storey served 18 years for gun attacks on the Army. In 1983 he was among 38 Provisionals who escaped from Northern Ireland’s Maze prison – the largest jailbreak in British history. Maudlin republican ballads eulogise his terrorist exploits, and his portrait glares down from the gable walls of republican west Belfast.
    In short, among the nationalist community, when Bobby Storey, in his trademark low, menacing voice, says jump, the required response is: “How high?”
    Here, however, in the riot-scarred streets of Ardoyne, the young pretender in his hoodie and mask was far from intimidated. All week he had led locals, some as young as eight, in pitched battles against the police – hurling stones, bricks and home-made grenades”.

    “Bristling with bravado, he jabbed a stubby finger into Storey’s chest and told him: “We rule our own roost here, Storey. Back off. Nobody cares what you think.”
    This was not just the common confrontation of age and youth one witnesses in Northern Ireland’s tribal sectarian strongholds. Instead this was the IRA’s dissident offspring telling the veteran forefathers of Northern Ireland’s Troubles that they no longer commanded respect. That their word was no longer law”.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/7896588/Sinn-Fein-are-yesterdays-men.html

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    See I told you so!!!! From the Belfast Telegraph:

    “Dissident republicans are believed to be behind a campaign of intimidation waged against a Sinn Fein councillor in north Belfast”.

    “Paint was spattered over a family car belonging to Gerard McCabe, who was elected to sit on Belfast City Council last May”.

    “This is only one in a series of attacks over recent months on my family and other local republicans who are highly respected by this community”.

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-fein-councillor-defiant-after-thugs-target-car-16187361.html

    Why has Gerry Kelly never mentioned this on TV and radio??? Could it be that they as I mentioned in my first piece…..”These groups are in direct conflict with the shinners in Ardoyne. Read Martin Meehan’s blog “Ardoyne republican” to see the two sides are set on a collision course”!

    For the shinners to lose control of the republican part of Ardoyne, would be extremely embarrassing.

    “Obviously in the good old days the shinners and provos would have had a “night of the long knives” to sort out the issues and remove the problems. However the problem is that many they would need to remove are former provos, and that is not likely”!

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/07/18/whats-eating-ardoyne-sluggers-first-bite-at-a-google-plus-discussion/

    Just loved this “local republicans who are highly respected by this community”!!!

    Right out of the republican green book of propaganda.

    Sorry to spoil your parade Mr McCabe, but it doesn’t look like your highly respected with that part of Ardoyne. “The attacks have generally been with paint, and also involving graffiti and fly-posting in the district during the night”.

    I will keep you all up to date when, and whatever grouping in that part of Ardoyne. Decide its my communities fault and we get the blame for everything.

  • carl marks

    ayeYerMa (profile)
    20 July 2012 at 11:53 pm

    “Carl Marks,

    No all-island “Republic”/”Nation” exists in any sense other than fantasy, nor is likely to exist in the current generation, nor the generation after that. Therefore why on any given topic do much of our media and political commentators insist on getting “Republican”/”Nationalist” perspectives given that we are not discussing the monarchy nor constitutional change?

    It simply is weird. For as long as our media/commentators treat us in an abnormal way the longer we shall remain abnormal.”

    There are two main political groupings here, unionist and republican they are nearly evenly split in numbers, so you don’t think a large part of the population has the right to have its views aired, anybody else you don’t think has a right to an opinion. How about the whole voting thing got any groups you think shouldn’t be allowed to cast a ballot.
    What is abnormal in a civilised society is trying to stop peoples opinion being heard because someone disapproves of it.

  • carl marks

    I was brought up in Ardoyne before the present troubles started and am well aware of the geography of the area.
    I am I suspect a older man than you and can remember when Twaddell, Woodvale, Hesketh, Torrens and indeed the area you refer to as Republican Ardoyne were all mixed communities.
    And I also remember the people protestant and Catholic who were driven out of their homes during days we must never return to.
    To use Language such as the larger Republican Ardoyne implies that these areas are small isolated groups facing a larger foe; this is obvious nonsense as any map of the area will tell you.
    You ask where is the space for these houses, well for a start there’s Girdwood.
    It’s strange when I read your posts you continually refer to the violence carried out against your community i agree with you that that has caused great trauma and sorrow to the pul people there but I can find no mention of the violence carried out by loyalists against the people of Ardoyne do you not mention it because you believe that, a/ It Never Happened, b/ it was all reactive, c/ it’s not relevant, or is it because admitting that what we had in North Belfast was a nasty tit for tat low intensity war between two communities with terror groups on both sides does not fit with the decent people under siege image that you are trying to project.
    In one of your posts you said that the protest at holy cross was aimed at prominent republicans and the parents not the Children anybody looking at the footage can see the pure sectarian hatred being aimed at the children.
    Why can you not admit that in the case of north Belfast it took two to tango?
    And two sides got hurt Nationalists recognise your hurt but we still wait for ours to be recognised and until that happens any sort of compromise will be more difficult, and i assume that you realise that compromise is the only way to solve this.

  • carl marks

    The above post was adressed to Ardoyne Unionist.
    sor i left that out.

  • lamhdearg2

    Carl.
    may I intersect.
    on your, ” Nationalists recognise your hurt”, some irish nats in ardoyne dont appear to, these folk are trying to cause more hurt, real hurt, not the sort of hurt you get from themuns being allowed to pass by wearing the sash their father wore, but the sort that comes from being told a loved one has been murdered.
    My question to you as a man from the area is, what are the good people of ardoyne going to do about these folk, you must see that it is only from with inside the irish nat community, that these people can be defeated, as any attempts to defeat them from outside will only cause hurt to all, and increase their support.

  • Mister_Joe

    “When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind.

    When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.”

    J.Krishnamurti

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Carl, your spatial awareness needs addressing.

    The simple fact is that the PUL part of Ardoyne is lesser not only in size but also in population, than the republican part of Ardoyne.

    Why are you constantly trying to bring in other areas like Twaddell, Woodvale? While they come under constant attack from the republican part of Ardoyne they are not where republican Ardoyne will expand into. That is reserved for the PUL part of Ardoyne.

    You seem to be deliberately ignoring the facts as I have presented them to you.

    You have gone on again about Holy Cross. Again I covered that.

    Maybe you can tell us who put their children in the front line of the conflict? Why don’t you question the logic of the parents for taking their children through that hatred, or do you support their decision??? Or is making a political point more important for the republicans in Ardoyne than the welfare and safety of their children???

    Maybe you as an obvious expert on all things Ardoyne, can give us the intricacies that would have saved the children form going anywhere near the front line of the dispute????

    Get past the screaming and shouting and do what you are telling me to do and admit there was wrong on both sides and it there was wrong done by the children’s parents!!!

    “nationalists recognise your hurt but we still wait for ours to be recognised” Who are we??? When and were did republicans recognize our hurt????

  • carl marks

    lamhdearg2
    thank you for asking this question.
    I will try to answer it for you, firstly you are right there are those in Ardoyne who seem unable to leave the methods of the past behind (without taking away from that I would point out that the nationalist community does not have a monopoly on this), the good people of Ardoyne the majority of them I believe wish this to stop the sooner the better.
    I also believe that soon the courts will show that many if not most of the young thugs rioting in Ardoyne where either brought in by the dissident groups or turned up for a bit of social rioting that is not to say that there were not people from among them from Ardoyne. And you are partly right it is only from within the nationalist community they can be defeated. But you must recognise that the 12th and all associated with it is seen inside the nationalist as a triumph list sectarian hate fest you see this differently and do not realise the extent of this feeling. This may not be what you see as a fact but it is the perception inside the nationalist community .
    The good people of Ardoyne are trying to isolate the dissidents but it is difficult, what would strengthen their hand would be the recognition that Ardoyne has issues and talking about them would be progress. After all if you repeatedly told someone you had a problem with something they were doing and they refused to even talk to you about it would you not get pissed off?
    What I’m saying is that the problem will not be solved until we all agree that we all need to help to solve it and that includes not only talking but listening to the other side.
    I am not in any way diminishing the responsibility of nationalists in this matter but pointing out that both sides have issues and duties.
    I can realise the hurt felt by unionists when they see prominent republicans in their areas because i know the harm the has been done to unionists but you must realise the hurt felt by Nationalists when we see people who we know were or are members of loyalist terror groups who have inflicted the same hurts upon us parading past our homes on the 12th.
    If i was to asked you the same question in reverse, why has the good people of Hesketh not got rid of the UDA/UVF what would your answer be (please do not take that as whataboutry) they have after all shown that they have the capability and will to kill Catholics I suspect you would say that the Nationalist community must help be giving a little.
    This whole stinking mess was inherited by us we have given to a new generation; the cure will not be quick. We will have to build trust (the hardest part) and work together there must be communication between both sides and both sides will have to give.
    I’m sorry if that sounded woolly but to be honest for to come up with a answer to what is a problem that has existed for generations is beyond me but for each side to finally admit how big a set of Assholes we have been would IMHO be a very good starting point.

  • Mister_Joe

    Carl and ArdoyneUnionist,

    You guys are not having a discussion. You are talking past each other. East is east and west is west and all that….

  • lamhdearg2

    *why has the good people of Hesketh not got rid of the UDA/UVF what would your answer be,”
    to this carl I would point out that the uda/uvf are on cease fire,
    so compare them to sf/ira but not the dizzys, the anti cease fire loyalist groups where routed from the area.

    The ardoyne dizzys are gaining support (or getting bold), where as in the likes of the springfield road where s.f. hold sway, the lodges (O.O.) are able to parade without all hell breaking loose,if the good people can not stand up directly to the dissys, then more of the ardoyne residents need to tell the police what these people are doing.

  • carl marks

    Carl, your spatial awareness needs addressing.

    The simple fact is that the PUL part of Ardoyne is lesser not only in size but also in population, than the republican part of Ardoyne.
    YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE A LITTLE ORANGE ISLAND IN A SEA OF GREEN BUT DOES IS IT NOT CONNECT TO SILVERSTREAM (big loyalist area), Ballysillen (big loyalist area) are there rivers or force fields separating them from Hesketh.
    I notice you make no comment about the loyalist terror groupings and the campaign they mounted against the Nationalist community. Also instead of condemning those who threw blast bombs and urine at schoolgirls you chose to try to blame the whole thing on the parents. I asked you several questions in a previous post you choose not to answer instead repeat the same old tired line, it would appear we are going nowhere it would also appear that I am the only nationalist foolish enough to debate with you. I think you are right we will never agree .goodbye I think we will go through all this next year that is very sad.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Carl, bla bla bla bla bla.

    Bla bla bla bla bla????

    Bla bla???

    That’s what your posts look like Carl.

    Nice to see you looked up how to spell Silverstream. As for someone who says they came from Ardoyne, you still don’t know where Ballysillan is. I sure as hell don’t know where Ballysillen is???

    You did get one thing right “we are going nowhere”.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Joe, I respect your point of view and your concern. However, there are several serious geographical inaccuracies in Carl’s posts, that lead me to believe he is not from these parts, and therefore not the expert he is trying to portray in his posts.

    This leaves me to come to the conclusion that Carl is a Troll. His knowledge of the idiosyncrasies and geography of this area is not from around here!!!

    Anyone living in this part of North Belfast, is very aware of where the boundaries are and where they start and end. I’m afraid Carl hasn’t show that awareness.

    Joe, I leave it to you to find out where Carl is posting from? And you can rest assured I will not be replying to any more of Carl’s ramblings..

  • Mister_Joe

    ArdoyneUnionist,

    Fair enough. From afar, I am saddened that boundaries exist. But, having lived in Belfast for quite a few years back in the late sixties early seventies, I understand the realities although I was lucky enough not to experience them directly. I always lived in and around the Lisburn road.

  • dwatch

    “The simple fact is that the PUL part of Ardoyne is lesser not only in size but also in population, than the republican part of Ardoyne.”

    ArdoyneUnionist, the struggle for dominance between Republicanism and Unionism in the Ardoyne & the whole of N Belfast is ongoing. Only Alban Maginness of the SDLP stops SF from winning 3 MLA seats for SF. See below: The UUP is no threat anymore to the DUP. When the 3 electoral areas Shankill, Highfield & Glencairn move from West to North Belfast by 2014 after boundary changes, the DUP hope to gain excess votes to secure their dominance in N Belfast. Finally the dissidents of Ardoyne are as much a headache for SF who want rid of them as do Unionists.

    The six MLAs for the constituency elected in the 2011 election are:
    Carál Ní Chuilín – Sinn Féin
    Paula Bradley – Democratic Unionist Party
    William Humphrey – Democratic Unionist Party
    Gerry Kelly – Sinn Féin
    Alban Maginness – Social Democratic and Labour Party
    Nelson McCausland – Democratic Unionist Party

  • lamhdearg2

    Anyone heard of goggle maps!,
    Ballysillan park and the holycross and st gabriels schools seperate “loyalist ardoyne” from the Ballysillan area, it is the streets of social housing, glenbryn and alliance* that Irish nats in ardoyne are, and have been for many years targeting.

  • lamhdearg2

    ” Alliance* ”
    Alliance Avenue, has already been purged of all but one non Irish nat,

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    dwatch, thanks for your post.

    The North Belfast constituency is large and varied.

    The inclusion of Highfield and Glencairn into the north Belfast constituency is a positive for them. They will now have Unionist representation, the two areas being removed from west Belfast Sinn Fein electoral coronations.

    How I see it.
    There would need to be a cataclysmic loss of support in the republican part of Ardoyne for anything to change. If there is a loss of confidence and support by republicans, in the shinners north Belfast message, and with any perceived delivery or not as the case maybe. The republican electorate in my opinion will still all fall in behind the shinners come voting time. Reluctantly maybe but vote Sinn Fein they will.

    This reluctance however will become a weakness over time if not addressed as Unionists parties can vouch for, with mass voter apathy setting in.

    I don’t think the other republican view in Ardoyne has a personality or the message yet that will gather the support to challenge the shinners or Kelly? However they will be a massive irritation and that irritation may change into something more tangible, if the policing and parades message propagated by the other republicans takes hold.

    The obvious weakness of the other republican view point is the focusing on only two issues parades and policing, but that might change. I don’t see Kelly and the shinners have anything to worry about for now. However if the other republicans were to open other fronts on the shinners, be that in housing or jobs. It will be a daunting task for the shinners to challenge as their record on these issues in north Belfast is not that impressive (Girdwood). The housing issue I hope I have covered in my posts. The jobs thing is a harder nut to crack, and this obviously has a huge impact on the Unionist population to.

    As identified some of the republican and Kelly and shinner friction.
    http://ardoynerepublican.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/gerry-kelly-and-lundy-clann.html

    Looking over the peace wall and watching republicans play the shinners at their own game is fascinating. As I said in my other posts in times past there would have been a “night of the long knives” to get rid of the irritation. But the other republican grouping seems to be well connected with former provos and gathering support.

    So watch that space.

    From a Crumlin road shopper and bystander from up the road.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    lamhdearg2, “it is the streets of social housing, glenbryn and alliance* that Irish nats in ardoyne are, and have been for many years targeting”.

    That is the geography that Carl, who said he lived in Ardoyne, was unable or unwilling to grasp.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Paint attack on SF man’s car is latest incident in campaign of intimidation.

    n Ardoyne Sinn Féin councillor’s car was covered in paint in the early hours of this morning (Thursday) in what republicans in the area say is the latest in a series of attacks on them in recent months.

    Councillor Gerard McCabe’s car was covered in paint outside his Balholm Drive. The councillor said the damage to his car is part of a campaign of intimidation against republicans in the Ardoyne area. Leaflets have been handed out and derogatory graffiti has also been painted on walls about other republicans in the area including Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly and Joe Marley from residents’ group CARA.

    http://belfastmediagroup.com/paint-attack-on-sf-mans-car-is-latest-incident-in-campaign-of-intimidation/

    Can anyone spot the deliberate exclusion in the rant above.

  • Fergie Pie

    Once again Provisional Sinn Fein are condemning dissident Nationalist groups for engaging in the exact same tactics they themselves were using just a few years ago:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA4B6_REg40

    Ask Gerry Fitt what it’s like to be on the receiving end of Provisional Sinn Fein intimidation.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    From the pensive Quill.

    It seems the shinners may know more than they are letting on, at the arrest of one of the alternative republicans arrest in Ardoyne.

    http://thepensivequill.am/2012/07/emasculation.html

    “cant help wondering if bik and mccabe were being genuine when they called to the lundy family home on thursday and if they were im sure they must have had a right redder when they heard what gerry kelly had to say to the family on friday.The ruc/pissni officer who has pointed alan out for the 2005 offence is a regular host in the local sf run crj office,so i think the shinners know more about this case than there letting on and you would never guess who is the paid worker in that office Big h brother????fucking stinking”.

  • Reader

    Mister_Joe: You guys are not having a discussion. You are talking past each other. East is east and west is west and all that….
    There are multiple ironies there, since the punchline runs: “But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth, When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth.”

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Intolerance of the PUL people and culture and this is what you get.

    “A Protestant couple and their five-month-old baby girl say they are being forced to leave their home at a north Belfast interface after a series of sectarian attacks.

    On Monday night, Marcus Walker and his partner Nicola Gillespie had to call the police out to their Westland Drive home after the front door was smashed in and graffitti sprayed onto it.

    The couple only moved to the area four months ago, believing it to be a suitable place to bring up their baby daughter Darcy.

    Their Housing Executive home overlooks a play park and the picturesque waterworks, but it is on the edge of an interface with the Cliftonville Road and lower Antrim Road.

    Marcus says their house was targeted two weeks after they arrived and the attacks have continued ever since.

    “The police have been here 20 times in the space of four months,” he said, before adding that he was “beyond concerned” about his family’s safety”.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Protestant-family-forced-to-leave-home/64cc8584-2e57-47d6-bee4-7784498a9895

  • Mister_Joe

    ArdoyneUnionist,

    I don’t know what you expect all of us here to say except that it’s disgusting and, hopefully, the perps get caught and punished.

  • carl marks

    ArdoyneUnionist
    Ditto, what joe said.
    your point please!

  • The Lodger

    carl marks,

    I can’t speak for Ardoyne Unionist, but I must say that the reaction to this story is extremely muted in comparison to the endless posts about a band playing loyalist tunes outside an empty chapel.

    “Yeah we’re disgusted and hope they get caught. Move on please what is your point?”

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    “Yeah we’re disgusted and hope they get caught. Move on please what is your point?”
    You know that is all you would have had to do to get me to shut up about the bands and the symbol burning at bonfires. Now you see i am disgusted at what happened to the Walker family, now if you and the ever inventive Ardoyne unionist want to use it to somehow prove how evil all Catholics are and have a good mope you go ahead, i don’t really know what to say beyond, disgraceful, hope the basterds get caught. Care to join me about the scum outside St Pats or the ones who burn nationalist flags and catholic symbols at bonfires, better still I ask anybody with information about this, names etc to go to the police will you make the same call in relationship to the bigots outside St Pats

  • The Lodger

    carl marks,

    I think the fact that you equate a band playing loyalist tunes outside an empty chapel with a terrified young Protestant family being forced out of their home says it all.

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    Ah the old “you can’t compare it argument”, you see these are both sectarian incidents and all reasonable people regard both as abhorrent and will condemn both. I Notice you don’t seem to regard the displays of intolerance and hate to be found around bonfires to be even relevant. Indeed you seem oblivious to anything done by your community. That which you will admit too, you act as an apologist for.
    Of course the two incidents differ in degree but both are outcomes of the same problem, Sectarianism and unless you are willing to condemn both your part of the problem.
    However since i don’t recall (if I’m wrong show me your post or posts and I will apologise) you ever being able to condemn outright any loyalist action no matter how vile then I must assume that only object to nationalist actions.

  • The Lodger

    carl marks,

    In fact I did condemn that band and I pointed out what a stupid propaganda gift they had handed to republicans.

    You are right that the two incidents differ in degree. Just as spitting out chewing gum on the street and carrying out an armed robbery differ in degree. Sadly though nationalist posters seem to have managed to get the two incidents the wrong way around in terms of seriousness.