RTE’s ‘Faith in crisis: a would you believe special.’

Show me any thinking member of the Catholic Church who is not currently floundering in pursuit of a leadership to restore trust and confidence in the meaning of catholicism.

The church is embroiled in a plethora of allegations of clerical scandal from the bottom up and from the top down. Apart from claims of child abuse what is even worse is the charge of cover up.

Received wisdom dragging us back to our schools argued the pope is ‘infallible.’ There was even a time when was carried about in what was known as the sedia (saedia) gestatoria and once in that chair his every utterance was deemed infallible as he spoke ‘ex cathedra.’

Does anyone genuinely believe the current pope is infallible?

He too is in the dock with many other fellow bishops and cardinals for alleged cover-ups of child abuse world wide.

His authority and that of practically the entire hierarchy of the catholic church is on trial.

Against this backdrop people like myself were anxious to watch and listen to contributors on the above named programme: ‘Faith in crisis: a would you believe special.’

This was a very aggravating production which clearly ill judged what I as a viewer was seeking. I felt the panel was far too big. Of necessity this obliged the programme’s moderator to make sure that everyone’s voice was heard.

The downside of this was that critical points raised by crucially important contributors like Nuala O Loan, Professor James Mackie and Enda Mac Donagh simply didn’t get sufficient time to develop key points.

“I don’t see any structures of accountability in the catholic church.” Said Enda Mac Donagh.

Bishop Willie Walsh added:
“I am accountable only to Rome which is 3000 miles away.
Bishops are trapped in church structures.”

“I don’t think any of them have leadership qualities.” Mark Patrick Hederman chief abbot in Glenstal Abbey on the hierarchy of the catholic church in Ireland.

Commenting on the role of Rome he also said it should be about “the primacy of love and service not about power.”

Nuala O Loan said “the bishops are not victims. They are actors in church structures.
As I have listened I have become more and more uncomfortable.

“There is nothing that comes from Rome that gives me confidence there will be change.”

Professor Mackie said “the priesthood is part of the problem.”

Not alone were some of these key observations not probed during the programme ‘Faith in crisis: a would you believe special but the inaneness of other contributions were not shown for what they were. Sticking plaster ideas like ‘parish councils’ were being promoted as remedies for a cancer in the catholic church.
Why was this not robustly challenged?

Speaker after speaker spoke of ‘clericalism’ yet no one thought of telling us what this term actually means.

One definition reads: a policy of supporting the influence and power of the clergy in secular and political matters.

This is a subject meriting greater scrutiny.
Eamonn Mallie

  • Manfarang

    Bring back Celtic Chtristianity.

  • Coll Ciotach

    they reap what they have sown – V11 lieralistas have a lot to answer for.

  • Coll Ciotach

    oops “liberalistas”

  • One of the problems facing the church is the belief that there are ‘crucially important contributors’, and that these people can produce anything approaching a solution.

    The abuse of power is not the only problem.

    Over the past what, four decades? more and more people have been selecting which bit of church doctrine they will ‘obey’. This gradual independence has in itself weakened the church.

    The church for the last century has ruled by consent, a bit like a police force. The difference is the police force knows it, and the church, apparently did not.

  • joeCanuck

    Does anyone genuinely believe the current pope is infallible?

    Strange; I had been thinking about that quite a bit over the past week. It was always a problem for me when I was part of that church. Before they can reform and accept even something as innocuous as contraception, they have to dump that ridiculous idea. I think they only came up with it in the late 1800s. God (ha) knows what they were thing. Huge brain fart.

  • joeCanuck

    “thing” should obviously be “thinking”

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Mr Mallie is to be genuinely congratulated for writing this piece. Writing any piece on the Catholic Church which is not abusive is taking the risk of being ridiculed.
    Dara O’Briain, Ed Byrne and our own beloved Patrick Kielty are happy to put the boot in at any opportunity.
    There is a strange relationship between the Catholic laiety and priesthood best summed up by Captain Boyle in “Juno and the Paycock”.
    The Captain talking to a confused Joxer condemns the priests in one scene and praises them in another.
    My observation is that this is a normal Catholic experience. Reasons a plenty to hate a priest. Reasons to be grateful.

    If one sees a political parallel…..it is maybe the Gang of Four who formed the SDP after the Labour Party was perceived by them to be unelectable.
    Their action EVENTUALLY produced a re-think within Labour.
    In the 1970s and 1980s it appears to me that many devout sincere Catholics made a largely intellectual choice to walk away.
    The Church should have seen the writing on the Wall.
    The Church quickly came under the control of a new conservative Pope which accelerated the defections and produced a n even more conservative Church.
    More defections.
    And a rump of uninspiring conservatives.

    Apart from the courage for (still) devout Catholics to stand up TO the Church, it would take even more courage to stand up FOR the Church.
    A typical “liberal” Internet message board in 2010 can contain as much sectarian vitriol as bonfire night on the Shankill. But of course Dara O’Briain, Ed Byrne and Patrick Kielty would not like the comparison.
    It surprises younger people to learn that 40 odd years ago “liberals” were in the ascendancy.
    Is it actually worth the bother.
    Frankly there was a time when I might have cared.
    But I dont.
    The fact is that middle aged Catholics are resigned to going to honour deceased elderly friends and relatives and feel distant from the rituals. But paradoxically yearn for the certainty that the elderly have for their faith.
    And the middle aged yearn for the different package of certainties that young non-believers have.

    With more priests in their 90s than in their 30s…..with more people turning away……the Church (worldwide) is in a dilemna.
    Its severely wounded and its open season on anyone with the courage/stupidity to claim he/she is a Catholic.
    And its too late.

  • “Does anyone genuinely believe the current pope is infallible?”

    Eamonn,

    That question should be directed at the pope, bishops and cardinals so that we can all know if they are delusional and arrogant, for to imagine infallibility is possible in any religion and business is certifiable madness and a fraud perpetrated on the masses and a petty conspiracy of lost souls with more of a pact with their devils and demons than anything else meaningful with a GOD Concept.

  • padraig

    The Church has never taught that the, ‘Pope is infallible’, only someone completely illitierate in Catholic theology would think so.

    The Doctrine of Papl Infallibilty means something else entirely.

  • padraig

    The Church has never taught that the, ‘Pope is infallible’, only someone completely illitierate in Catholic theology would think so.

    The Doctrine of Papl Infallibilty means something else entirely.

  • Sam Flanagan

    Mystery Babylon Mother of Harlots and abomnations of the earth.

    It has now become impossible for one individual to keep up with all the worldwide scandals linked to Babylonianism. This seems to be the latest.

    I hope none of you believe in “the secret rapture theory?”
    i.e. The Antichrist will not be revealed until the “church is raptured?” lol

    No one in their right senses would be giving any money to this blatant piece of religious charlatanism.

    Instead of going to chapel you would get better entertainment watching “the God Channel” and seeing all the gullible “Prods” being taken for a ride.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1297083/Gay-priest-sex-scandal-undercover-Berlusconi-reporter-films-clerics-gay-clubs.html

  • Lionel Hutz

    True. The problem is that the Catholic Church does allow that little misunderstanding to prevail and many believe the Pope to actually be infallibility and many many more believe that the Pope believes he is infallible

  • RepublicanStones

    RTE’s ‘Faith in crisis:…

    Reminds me that RTE regularly plays the Angelus, but banned an advert round Christmas time for having the word crib in it.

    Religion, and the CC in Ireland are going to end up like the blacksmith demonstration at the Ulster F&T Museum. Something people will go to have a look at, bemused at how they got by with such preoccupations in days of yore, a dead tradition, overtaken by the advancement of human ingenuity and rationalism. Of course the difference being, folks actually use to need a blacksmith.

  • “The Church has never taught that the, ‘Pope is infallible’, only someone completely illitierate in Catholic theology would think so.

    The Doctrine of Papl Infallibilty means something else entirely.” …. padraig says: 26 July 2010 at 6:36 am

    padraig,

    That is surely a self delusional argument to be forwarding, for the two teachings are too much thought alike to be really any different. And the subtleties of any argument which would try to dismiss the ‘Pope is infallible’ notions/teachings are not helped by this instruction/explanation ….. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/papal.htm

    And with a fallible thinking pope, is not the programming for reverence and obedience to papal wishes, somewhat misguided if it be imagined any holier than thine or mine or theirs?

  • Robo

    Does anyone genuinely believe the current pope is infallible?

    [Text removed – Mods]

    Come on Eamonn. Are you really too lazy to do your research?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

  • AlanMaskey

    There are more Catholics in England than Ireland. Ireland is largley irrelevant to the Catholic Church. Much bigger fish to fry.
    The programme seemed to have been a good one as it highlighted issues like the lack of accountability. And hoow little about its doctrines contributors know.

  • the blow – in

    Fitzjameshorse –
    Good post I think, and I too think it is too late. We are now seeing the passing of a generation of ‘thinkers’ who were part of the catholic church, who saw themselves as the ‘loyal opposition’ but whose loyalty made absolutely no difference in an organisation which has no room for any input other than that which comes from the hierarchy. What you are left with is a highly conservative and reactionary ‘rump’ with no interest in accomodating dissent. Its time for the remaining ‘loyal opposition’ to face the truth – they aren’t wanted and wont be accomodated. Let the RC church now stew in its own juices, and let intelligent christians find alternative ways of living out the gospel.

  • steve white

    Wish the media would stop portraying Diarmid Martin as the good cop among the bad cops, the Bishop is one of them protecting the church and domination of Irish education, he’s currently concreting religion into state backed schools for the next hundreds years.

  • The tilt against the church started in the 1960s, before there was any mention of child abuse or even any serious consideration of abolishing corporal punishment in schools.
    If the church wants to find relevance, then it has to ask what it was about that period that switched off so much of that generation.

    They may dismiss that cultural change as sixties liberalism and dismiss the sexual freedoms that emerged as sinfulness to be reversed, but the cultural revolution was essentially feminist and motivated by much more than hedonism.

    The church is defeated – as is any religious institution – when women reject the core religious principle that they are subordinate to men. Look for the one thing that all religious traditions believe in and it is not even God; it is the nuclear family. When social structures changed to allow other forms of family and sexual freedom, facilitated by contraception, the church had to either change too or lose the interest of people who enjoyed the new culture. I say this as some who does not sneer at sexual liberation and the Pill but who is damn glad of it.

  • Frank O’Neill

    Faith in Crisis -Would you believe , Special

    I believe, it was a very ‘nice’ program, typically Irish, very Churchy.
    All in all it represented a scenario of a meeting of the 3 pillars of failure in our Island, Church-Banks-State,dancing hand in hand round “the Shaft” (our new national emblem in O’Comnnell St.- Shamrock has been replaced by the pillars of failure)
    Poor mary o’rourke,political dynasty dowager, looking like a lost sheep, speechless for once..representing our failed government.
    I believe there were too many “I” patronising people patting each others rendition.Not enouugh refreshing radical thinking.
    I believe, Nuala O’loan’s timely sparks of wisdom saved the programme from a titanic dive.Mike Peelo was doing his best but could have been better tested with a more hands on panel……..
    Lets start the next panel with Fr.Peter McVerry..sj
    watch this space,
    PaceBene

  • AlanMaskey

    Malachi: When St Malachi walked the earth and before our lovely land was ruined by the weeds of the alien Saxon, a woman could walk from one end of the Emerald Isle to the other and not be molested. The local chieftains, especially in Donegal, were too busy shagging horses (not sheep) to prove their manhood.
    And there was no such thing as the nuclear fmaily, which is a Victorian invention. People were too poor to have such frivolities.

    Religion will be reinvented to cater for today’s world. Interestingly, many of the better Catholic church choirs are manned by gay guys, who like that kind of thing. The rest are manned by matronly dragons.

    Still, the Catholc Church rules. I wonder where they get German, Swiss and French bishops from as Ireland is only now cathing up on their disintegration.

    Meanwhile, you will be happy to hear: Sunni Islam will soon have more signed up and active members than Rome. The so called UK has now more Muslims than Welsh people. Or self obsessed Orangemen for that matter.

    I occasionally visit places like Camden, Cricklewood and Kilburn, parts of the old Irish empire. Allah rules there. It is like downtown Tehran with only the now very upmarket Crown in Cricklewood holding out against today’s Saracens. Shades of Constnatinople’s end, with the Greeks’ Santa Sophia replaced by that holiest of Irish icons: the boozer.

  • padraig

    When the English historian Edward Gibbons visted the Pope shortly after the Dogma of Infallibility was promulgated he was asked if he thought if the Pope really was infallible.

    To which he replied,

    ‘I only know that he referred to me as Mr Jibbons rather than Mr Gibbons’.

    Edward Gibbons was of course a highly intelligent, cultured man and knew what the Dogma meant.

    Not so, I am afraid the commentators on the forum or Eamonn Mallie for that matter. Clearly they know as much about the theological implications of this Dogma or and other theology than than the tail at the end of my dog.s bum.

    But it won’t stop him writing articles about something he clearly knows sod all about..and it won’t stop know nothings on this forum commentating exstensively and blettheringly and ad nauseum about either.

  • padraig

    Never mind , ‘Who ket the digs out?’ Who let the raving, barking looney’s out?’

  • joeCanuck

    Well, Padraig,
    As a child I was certainly taught by the priests that the Pope is infallible when talking out of the side of his mouth ex cathedra.
    If you know different why not tell us rather than just naysaying.

  • Down South

    Thanks fjh for this. I didn’t realise I was middle aged but going by this post I totally am because it resonates (and I buried an elderly relative only this weekend and felt what you describe). I stayed with it for years, trying to stay connected, loving bits of it (Easter and Funerals) and hating most of it, being conflicted but only because I observed as if watching a ceremony every week and never actually participating – all ability to challenge and to get up and go directly after my own questioning journey inside the church a non-possibility, not because of the presumed lack of engagement from the church itself but because of an unwillingness to commit first to going deeper inside the faith to then devote time to learning about it and the church – almost an admission that it was all true before going an choosing which bits to unlearn – like a plea bargain – admit you are Catholic through and through and then we’ll work a deal with as to which bits you can leave off you sentence.

    More recently I have landed on Quakerism as a place that is open to questioning – that has a lack of dogma and doctrine and but for its own modesty lends itself to be a perfect place of sanctuary in todays world.

    I’m sad for my own relationship with Catholicism, I don’t really envy the certainties of the elderly and the remaining devoted – I just don;t want them to not like me when they find out my views.

  • joeCanuck

    Padraig seems to believe that he is an expert in Canon Law. Perhaps he can explain to us which of the following statements are “ex cathedra” ones and which are simply changeable edicts of the Pope.
    1. using a condom to protect against STDs is a sin.
    2. All forms of contraception are sinful (unless you can find a band late at night to enable use of the rhythm method).
    3. Divorce is a sin (although it’s ok to pay a large sum of money to denizens of the Vatican to get an annulment , unless your name is Henry VIII).
    4. The Roman sect is the only true form of Christianity. All of the others are deluded although we would like the Anglicans to come back. (Other religions are superstitious bunkum).
    5. Abortion is a sin in all circumstances, even if the mother is certain to die by carrying to term; Only exception is rich woman who can afford to pay for a D&C (nudge nudge).
    6. Homosexuality is an abomination (I apologise in advance if I have confused the Pope with our lovely Iris).
    7. Same sex marriage is a sin, although priests and bishops can co-habit and play the game “mommies and daddies”.
    8. It is a grave sin to ordain a woman but it is perfectly ok to use them as beasts of burden in day to day running of the church.

  • Helen

    I feel completely disgusted with these people who call themselves Catholics who think being Catholic is showing up on Sunday to attend a service which they have no faith in, usually before they go shopping, disobeying Our Lord and the “Bishops” I saw on the program, were the same ones Christ warned would come in the last days – vain , puffed up men walking after their own lusts. And as for the gay who wanted more acceptance form the Church? Does he know God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha for this ?Genesis 19:20+ can be proven by the balls of sulfur found on it today!They were all crying out for a new Church and they don’t know they are in one, since the modernists split after Vatican II revolution, and created their own new Mass and it was written by …wait for it- a freemason, along with 6 protestant ministers. In this new church they wanted to abolish 90 % (and did) of the Holy Mass. That’s why you now have the Novus Ordo Mass which CHANGED Christ’s words, plus all they changed all the sacraments and abolished the index of forbidden books. They also allowed every Tom Dick or Harry to publish unapproved visions and suppressed and lied about real ones like Fatima. The third secret of Fatima is still hidden, and was to be read by “1960”. by “express wishes of Our Lady”. Is was about “a great apostacy that will begin at the top”. Eyewitnesses prove it.
    It has been said it was the 2nd Vatican Council- the Council of Apostacy as it’s rightly dubbed- google what happened. You now have a Catholic Church that tells you all religions are equal and that we should take Jesus out of the tabernacle so as “not to offend our separated brethren! This ONLY happened after 1960.Thank God, the traditionalists held their ground and kept the Catholic Faith whole and inviolate- Sorry but the separation of the goats from the sheep time has arrived. Lucia said we are in the end times , so you better look at second Thessalionians and the Apocolypse fast , to see what it says regarding the counterfiet Church that will pose as the real Church in the last days and deceive even the elect! Those people are not Catholic, so stop calling them Catholic. Luther only called Christ an adulterer, and said be a sinner and the Pope should be killed , and wanted rid of the altar. Well just look what these heathens want now. A lay Church – FORETOLD by the Saints and Mystics, but all hidden.See the Ottivianni intervention and ” on “what we have lost and the road to restoration” on youtube, and ask yourself if you are still Catholic.
    Lucia said we are in the last days/ St Paul warns in the last days:”God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

    [10] “God shall send”… That is God shall suffer them to be deceived by lying wonders, and false miracles,(Medjugorje etc) in punishment of their not entertaining the love of truth.

    [11] That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.” (Vatican II)
    Our Ladys message of Fatima – The trial is here.Also Our Lady at La Salette “Rome will lose the Faith and becaome the seat of the Antichrist, the Church will be in eclipse”. Approved.

  • Greenflag

    So what does it mean – this papal infallibility ? It seems to me and billions of people around the world that the papacy has been more than fallible as we have seen from the endless scandals , cover ups ,and abuses by an organisation that has traditionally been anti democratic and elitist anyway .

    The RC Church in Ireland is an empty house thats becoming emptier..The leaders are going through the motions of attempted recovery . Faith once lost is very seldom ever regained . The RC Church may survive as a ‘sect’ for the elderly and or those too brainwashed to unlearn much of the nonsense that was stuffed into their heads by rote a generation or two ago.

  • It seems to me the RCC in most western countries has become far too expensive. how many couples can afford to have one half stay home and give birth every year, and that’s if any couple would actually want to. There was a time when most couples did not have a choice, especially when you think of the RCC approved method of contraception!

    Instead of accepting science and moving on, the RCC held fast to medieval doctrine, to the extent that some rape victims in this country have had to go to England to get an abortion.

    The very idea that a woman has to ask a, supposedly, celibate male for permission to take a pill, only of course to have that permission denied, beggars belief in the arrogance and effrontery of the clergy. Thankfully such disgraceful presumption no longer works.

    It may be done with a bow and a: yes father, no father and three hail Marys to you too father, but, thankfully, it is done.

  • AlanMaskey

    Good post Helen but two questions:
    1. Have you a reference for the sulphur at Sodom? I am intereested in stuff like that.
    2. Should Louth be Leinster champions?

    Joe Canuck: Interesting, sex obsessed post.

  • AlanMaskey

    I see you have the same ambition for Ireland that the RCC has held for so long, ie barefoot and pregnant. It does not sit well with your republican leanings.

    The RCC has been obsessed with sex since christianity was taken over by a misogynist back in the year dot.

    BTW and by strange coincidence I too am interested in fairy tales. I hope Helen replies and will avail myself of the link if she does.

  • Alanbrooke

    ….and I thought the Calvinists were screwed up.

  • joeCanuck

    sex obsessed

    You can hardly blame me – I was brought up as an Irish Catholic, and well instructed by the priest. Sometimes I have nightmares about going blind..

  • joeCanuck

    4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

    So, Helen, when God looks down at us at the weekend, who does he get more irate at? Those who shop on Sunday or those who shop on the Sabbath?
    And does he allow for exigencies? Can you shop for toilet paper if half the family have got the runs due to receiving e-coli infected wafers from the priest that morning? Or will you still go to hell?

  • AlanMaskey

    Pippakin: Actually there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for stuff like the Great Flood, Jwericho and the vuvuzuelas, manna and so on. It means nothing factually but the evidence is there a plenty.

    “ie barefoot and pregnant” I am barefoot at the moment. Much more comfortable. And pregnant women are cute. When put together, it is a cliche.
    You know the main reason we have abortion and no kids? Religion right? Wrong. The tax system is designed that way. But have no fear. Our grandkids will be Muslims.

    Sex obsessed Joe: You should have taken up gaelic games or drinking instead. That is what most Christian Brothers did to fend off them questioning why they were bettering the lives of brats. Micky Stink and Paddy Mud.

    Helen is ok. Hope she comes back with that reference. Ss the old certainies go, people adopt new ones. Like Allah and the Mormons.

  • joeCanuck

    “Anecdote” – A yarn made up, or at least embellished, by someone to make themselves look better that they are or to put down someone they don’t like.

  • AlanMaskey

    I too am barefoot at the moment, how fortunate for us it is a choice! Pregnant women are cute. Yeah this is true the first, second, third, maybe even the fourth time around. Its not so cute when its the tenth and you have to feed, clothe and educate the children.

    There is indeed evidence of something. Jesus is after all a fact. I meant what I said: I am very interested. I wonder are you aware of the ‘black Madonna’? The secret scroll? found and suppressed by the church. So many tales, and no proof!

    This is not about sex, although church teachings would have us believe everything is. It is about lies and innuendos. If we were expected to obey unquestioningly – how could the person laying the law down be anything other than infallible?

    It belittles you to debase the discussion in such a way.

  • RepublicanStones

    Hi Helen – the association of homosexuality with Sodom’s offence has no scriptural basis. The hewbrew word “yada” refers unambigously to carnal knowledge in only 10 of the 943 occasions on which it is used in the Old Testament. Therefore in demanding to know Lot’s guests, the men of Sodom may simply wished to have ascertained their identity. This reading is supported in the Septuagint, the greek translation of the hewbrew bible on which King James’ version is based, which translates “yada” as “to become acquainted with” in the passage in question. Also the bibles other references to the sin of Sodom are completely devoid of a sexual connotation. Both Ecclesiasticus and Ezekeil name it as pride, Deuteronomy as idolatry, whilst in the book of Wisdom it is given as inhospitality.

  • Hello Helen

    I mentioned it to Alan Maskey but Im not sure if you saw it. Please if you have further details on Fatima and Sodom I would be grateful if you could post the links here.

    Thanks

  • joeCanuck

    I was wondering that myself reading your unexplained ranting.

  • ulsterfan

    He is not infallible.
    Many years ago I visited Knock.
    The Pope had come to the shrine in 1978.
    He made a gift to the Basilica and this consisited of a beautiful gold rose about 12 inches high,
    In a note signed by him he referred to Mary as “the hanmaiden of the Lord”
    He certainly can not spell

  • joeCanuck

    The third mystery of Fatima was a warning that an error had been made 1000 years ago in transcribing church doctrine (later bibles etc are copied from earlier ones. A bishop was delegated to investigate and went to the source document. When he came out he was crying Asked why, he said that priests were supposed to celebrate, not be celibate.

  • joeCanuck

    Could be worse. The present pope might have said hunmaiden.

  • Lionel Hutz

    I’m no canon lawyer but none of those are the subject of papal infallibility, which has only been used once since it was dogmatically defined.

    There are other sources of the infallibility of the church relating to the sacred magisterium. I don’t know the answer to all of your questions but from memory the churches teaching on contraception is not dogmatically defined pursuant to any of the sources of infallibility. It is however said to be authorative.

  • Lionel Hutz

    I should add to that actually.

    The recent popes who have spoken about this have not done so ex cathedra. As such, these pronouncement were not the subject of infallibilty, papal or otherwise. However these popes, in particular referring to the Encyclical Humanae Vitae, pointed out that the prohibtion of contraception has been the long standing teaching since it’s inception and is based on moral law. As such this is argued to be part of the ordinary magisterium and therefore the infallible teaching of the church. They have said so authoritatively but they could be wrong. How you square that circle, I’m not sure….

  • slappymcgroundout

    “The hewbrew word “yada” refers unambigously to carnal knowledge in only 10 of the 943 occasions on which it is used in the Old Testament. Therefore in demanding to know Lot’s guests, the men of Sodom may simply wished to have ascertained their identity. This reading is supported in the Septuagint, the greek translation of the hewbrew bible on which King James’ version is based, which translates “yada” as “to become acquainted with” in the passage in question.”

    Don’t quit your day job, as you fail as a Torah translator/interpreter. Don’t think we’d have had messengers (angels) of God striking some with blindness if their only error was insisting on getting to know some others in the platonic sense. Now re the blindness, well, recall my post on that now deleted thread re the one soul’s purported cure for homosexuality. Our biology speaks rather plainly here. I’ve a penis and she a vagina so that my penis might penetrate her vagina, then subsequent semen emission, and next thing you know, I’m chasing the little one off Youtube so she can’t watch your vid on your drive then walk up the Shankill. So our biology teaches a plainly clear and obvious message. And so they were blind and so were struck with blindness, so that their physical state now matched their mental state.

    Lastly, the Torah does not speak to homosexuality. You think of homosexuality as a lifestyle preference or some such. The Torah does not. The Torah prohibits all acts of male-male anal intercourse, whether it’s two gay men, or the hetero victorious soldier wishing to humiliate his vanquished opponent. Ditto our friends in prison (most of whom can’t be classed as “gay” yet unless they have conjugal visits have but the one avenue of sexual release). Again, Torah simply agrees with our obvious biology, and so if your penis must penetrate anything, it is to be her vagina. As I’ve said before, same as in the chem lab, male end fits into female end and the snugger the fit the better. Just make sure you don’t break her.

    Almost forgot, but have you considered: you’ve have that it what said to the ancients, not shall you commit adultery, but I tell you that if you look at her with lust in your heart you have committed adultery. So Jesus takes the step that some ancient Jewish sages didn’t and says that not only is that act wrong, so is the accompanying mental state, and on its own, and without start or completion of any act. Easier to deal with if you’re in prison or the victorious soldier, since you might get out on parole one day or maybe you find another way to humiliate your opponent following his defeat. But what do you do when the male-male anal intercourse is your lifestyle preference and you think that such is who you are?

  • RepublicanStones

    Thanks for the biology lesson slappy, but unfortunately whilst your comment was entertaining it was light on relevance. You quite obviously didn’t read that my post was a reply to Helen’s assertion that Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality. Which is just a cherry picking of possible reasons, as I demonstrated above. It’s best to read peoples comments in full before responding with, what you no doubt believe to be a witty reply. And btw slappy, homosexuality is not some kind of lifestyle choice/ preference.

  • Greenflag

    Religious wisdom for beginners 😉

    ‘Abel started it ‘

    Attributed to his brother Cain

    ‘We will now sing hymn number forty two – Holy, Holy , Holy all the holies , forty -two ‘

    Attr Marty Feldman

    ‘Have a little fun . Soon enough you’ll be dead and burning in hell with the rest of your family ‘

    Attr George Carlin

    ‘My mother is a catholic/protestant/jewish/optional atheist and while she doesn’t believe in an afterlife , she doesn’t believe in a present one either ‘

    And finally

    ‘Just how many witnesses do they need before they put Jehovah on trial ‘?

  • joeCanuck

    My house number is 42. It was an added attraction when we purchased it.

  • Greenflag

    JC

    Well it is the ultimate answer eh ? For the other 42 answers there’s the wiki note linked below I trust ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(number)

    excerpt

    ‘Forty-two is a pronic number and an abundant number; its prime factorization 2 · 3 · 7 makes it the second sphenic number and also the second of the form { 2 · 3 · r }. As with all sphenic numbers of this form, the aliquot sum is abundant by 12. 42 is also the second sphenic number to be bracketed by twin primes; 30 is also a pronic number and also rests between two primes. 42 has a 14 member aliquot sequence 42, 54, 66, 78, 90, 144, 259, 45, 33, 15, 9, 4, 3, 1, 0 and is itself part of the aliquot sequence commencing with the first sphenic number 30. Further, 42 is the 10th member of the 3-aliquot tree.
    42 is the product of the first three terms of Sylvester’s sequence; like the first five such numbers it is also a primary pseudoperfect number.
    It is the sum of the totient function for the first eleven integers.
    It is a Catalan number. Consequently; 42 is the number of noncrossing partitions of a set of five elements, the number of triangulations of a heptagon, the number of rooted ordered binary trees with six leaves, the number of ways in which five pairs of nested parentheses can be arranged, etc.
    It is the reciprocal of a Bernoulli number.

    At least in this galaxy anyway eh ;?

  • joeCanuck

    Thanks, GF.
    Pretty neat; I’m even more glad I bought it now.

  • The programme was rubbish, a typical RTE set up with fifteen liberal “Catholics” two timid bishops, and three orthodox Catholics who were allowed to speak once and not develop their thougths at all while the presenter went back again and again to the same people.

    As for Eamonn Mallie, is he for real or was that some sort of joke? If he genuinely thinks there’s a connection bewtween infalliblility and the sedia gestatoria then he’s an ignoramus.

    As to the question, yes, every genuine Catholic believes the Pope’s infallible. Most recently when Venerable John Paul II declared the Church could not ordain women.

  • joeCanuck

    Good jesting Criostar.
    And leave Eamonn alone. I haven’t noticed you around before, at least under that name, so maybe you should have a peek at the Comments Policy at the bottom of the page.

  • AlanMaskey

    So Criostoir, What would you have liked? Puerile jokes are the forte of some, the Irish never made any real intellectual contribution to Catholicism, there is no developed paganism in Ireland so who would you have liked there?

    Programmes need a bit of controversy so women priests, gay bishops etc have to be on the agenda.

  • joeCanuck

    One of the greatest crimes of the Christian church, mainly Catholic at the time, was the ruthless suppression, including murder of dissenters, of old religions, all around the world, and the loss of knowledge that went with that.

  • helen.w

    see youtube – I know there is some information in one of these parts, you just have to look through the parts, but it’s there.

    Creation and Miracles (New Edition) Part 7

  • helen.w

    wrong – you were instructed by a man who falsely called himself a priest.

  • Alanbrooke

    they’re also quite happy with bumping off dissenters of the newer religions.

  • helen.w

    How many people know of the apparition of Our Lady of La Salette, which acurately foretold the potato famine even though the French children had never heard of the word potato. She also said “Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist, the Church will be in eclipse”.
    Also at Fatima, she re enforced it with a “1960” deadline, when she warned that the great apostacy will begin at the top (real 3rd secret hidden by Vatican)., People will be in the apostacy and not know it. They will lose their soul through the teachings of the Vatican II Council.
    After the 1960 deadline:we had a new Mass, written by a freemason with 6 protestant ministers who took out Our Lords words at the consecration, and changed 90% of the Holy Mass and all the sacraments: Priest were no longer ordained with 7 steps, or to forgive confessions or offer Mass for the dead, OR to consecrate the Eucharist.
    A priest who read the secret said that it warned of the Vatican II Council.
    Also if you do not think you have lost the faith, how many of you know or still hold the teachings of the Church, approach the blessed Sacrament in the state of grace?

    You had better research your Faith .
    Youtube BBC New evidence

    Part 1 of the prologue to the 2009 BBC Special: New Evidence – Shroud of turin

  • Joe

    Completely agree, all that’s left is a mystery, with only guesswork and conjecture.to fill the gaps.

  • joeCanuck

    Yep, and their own weren’t immune either. Wonder what was going through Roberto Calvi’s mind when they started putting stones in his pockets – for safekeeping of course.

  • The Masons and ‘Gods’ banker. No, Im sure all suicides stuff their pockets with stones, having first fled their home and ended up in close proximity to Blackfriars. Regardless, whoever did it, got away with it, and in a Protestant country no less!

  • helen.w

    Thanks for that. I cant say I will be persuaded but I will check it out.

  • joeCanuck

    Wrong, Helen. I meant to say priests. Perhaps they were all deluded. Perhaps you are.

  • A N Other

    The main problem is that God does not exist, and the people have finally found out.

  • joeCanuck

    Pippakin,
    I’m surprised. You have more important things to do like teaching that lazy cat how to catch mice. BTW, whatever happened to the mouse on your curtain rail, sneering at the cat.

  • joeCanuck

    Only some of us, ANO. I do believe our numbers keep increasing though.

  • joeCanuck

    I mean a god to whom we will have to account to, of course. I’m an animist; I believe all living things have a “spirit”, otherwise known as life. So called christians haven’t totally given up on that; Many in Ireland, perhaps elsewhere, still try to use the water spirit at “holy” wells.

  • joe

    I have not changed my mind, not a bit, but the subject interests me, and, who would want to deny anyone their faith.

    The mouse was caught in a ‘safe’ trap. I released him into the fields across the road. I sincerely hope my cats have been too lazy to find him. At least they have not bought any livestock home recently!

  • “A N Other says: 27 July 2010 at 10:15 pm ….. The main problem is that God does not exist, and the people have finally found out.”

    As a Concept for a Virtual Business Model with No Need of Physical Manufacture or Creation of Product, does it exist in IT Cloud InfraStrata and in Beta Phorms in Global Operating Device Layers/Levels …….. and with a Much Higher and Most Noble Calling.

    Your Imagination is Failing You Greatly, as are your Systems and Intelligence Services and Servers. Fortunately Others, A N Other, are not so Afflicted and Diseased of a Practically Empty Mind.

    [blockquote][b]Beta Towering XSSXXXX Zeal ……. A Flowering House of the Rising Sun Passion[/b]

    Posted Wednesday 28th July 2010 04:52 GMT

    And a bite on that Apple from the Magic Smart Perfumed Garden releases Pandora and Fatima Memes, with Addictive Insatiable Carnal Desires, an Immaculate Sticky Sweet Drive for Trinity Powers* and Heavenly Third Parties in Devilish Control of Everything to Infinity and Beyond.

    When Godisagoddess, whose Words do you Follow. Theirs who worship a craven male clone or Others whose actions speak louder with beautiful silent shared words.

    Does Redmond do a Rainbow Mansions’ thing? ….. Is that what Azure is Geared to Provide Facility and Mentored and Monitored Controlled Bandwidth for? Or has that Slick Trick not yet been Played for Want and Need and Feed* of Warranted Errant Non State Actors and Renegade Rogue Pirate Programmers working in Private Binary Field Projections with AI TelePortation to Live Operational Virtual Environments …….. which would be more than just a Journey and Instant Travel to Stimulating Worlds in a Sophisticated Space Time Flight Simulator…….. for IT would Build the Future for Real on Planet Earth too, with Lead from Advanced Intelligent MetaDataBases…….. SMARTer InterNetworking Hubs delivering Perfect SIN for Vice Free Pleasures.

    Thought for the ZerodDay ……. Give a Man and/or a Woman what they want for your needs and you will think to Control them, although whether it would be a You or a They Wielding the Greater Third Party Control Powers is Beautifully Ambiguous by Intelligent Creative Design.

    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2010/07/27/yahoo_japan_google_deal_bing_snub/ [/blockquote]

  • AlanMaskey

    Interesting that the same posters keep posting here with the same, stale inane cracks. Obviously Mother Chruch still has its hold on them even if they try so hard to pretend otherwise.

    For example, look up Papal infallibility and you will see it applies to only certain circumstances. In the last 125 + years, Popes have only spoken ex cathedra on a hand gull of occasions.

    I also like the way you blame Churches on your own transgressions, eg the war in Afghanistan is beign waged by British Crusaders.

    How to ruin an interesting thread. Well done, little boys.

  • joeCanuck

    Sneaky, Alex. Playing the person(s) without naming them! Care to be more specific?

  • Procrasnow

    I feel that Roman Catholics should be asking themselves the question, Who owns our Church?

    I feel once they realise that it is they, the laity who own the church, that they have the power to hire and fire the clergy things might change.

    another thing they might realize is that there is no scripture for the office of cardinal not is there any scripture for unmarried bishops in the catholic bible.

    When the coin drops, or they stop dropping the coins, things might change.

  • Greenflag

    alanmaskey ,

    ‘In the last 125 + years, Popes have only spoken ex cathedra on a hand gull of occasions.’

    Gull ? That’s one for the boids . Remember a boid in the hand may be worth two in the bush but it usually just leaves an awful mess. The RC Hierarchy in Ireland and elsewhere have been holding a lot of boids in their hands recently and I don’t just mean Bishop Casey’s amor and mother of his son . The RC Church is not a democratic organisation . Corruption is built in and starts from the top down .

  • Greenflag

    ‘or they stop dropping the coins, ‘

    Probably but do remember the RC Church was never a democratic organisation and still has misgivings when the ‘terrified ‘ masses rise up and oppose the church’s power .

    Like the orange order in NI I would’nt hold out any hope for the RC Church in the matter of change . A slow extinction beckons for both institutions on this island and any speeding up of the process is to be welcomed .

  • Greenflag

    ‘How many people know of the apparition of Our Lady of La Salette, which acurately foretold the potato famine even though the French children had never heard of the word potato.’

    Lady of Shalott yes but never heard of La Salette . Anyway what sort of an apparition would be telling French kids that Irish Kids would be dying from not eating a vegetable which the French had not heard of ?

    Makes as much sense as feeding a horse a bag of marbles ;(

    And if she knew the ‘famine ‘ was coming why did’nt she do anything about it eh ? It’s always the same with these Deities _Christian or otherwise . They always know whats going to happen to their ‘creation’ but never lift a finger to save lives . On occassion just to reassure us they are not complete bastards they’ll kill a couple of hundred thousand in a tsunami in Indonesia but somehow save one child as an example of a miracle .

    It’s all horseshite plain and simple without even the redeeming benefits of the fertilizing nature of real horseshite 🙁

    Drivel dressed up as codology mar dha (mawr ya ) as it says in the gaelic !

  • Patrick M

    How about one big question that wasn’t addressed – why stay in such a Church if you are not happy? The Church can’t change its teaching on homosexuality or women priests. I think if Mr Dooley had been given a chance he could have shown the insanity of the dissident’s position. Funnily enough, you could see that woman psychologist or whatever she was, laughing at herself when challenged by Dooley.

  • Los Leandros

    Expecting RTE to stage a fair/balanced critique of Catholicism is like asking your local village atheist for a rational critique of Nietzsche/Pol Pot/Mao, etc., etc. It aint going to happen. RTE News/Current affairs in particular is totally devoid of any kind of professional journalistic ethic. Only liberal/feminist/homophile-fundamentalists need apply !. I thought the programme was hilarious, so predictably bad it was a classic ; & thats saying something for RTE. Literally beyond parody !.

  • Los Leandros

    Further to previous post. Intellectually speaking Catholicism is the only game in town. Starting with Pope Benedicts brilliant Regensburg University lecture ( which united both atheist & Islamic fundamentalists in irrational outrage ) & also his sublime recent address to the Houses of Parliament in London, the Pope has pointed to the rapid intellectual infantilisation of most of Western Europe, & tried to correct the trend. Alas the slide continues. Puerile liberal/feminist/atheist dogma reigns supreme. Thank God I’m a Catholic.