Unionism needs to get in tune with the zeitgeist of today’s European Union
Eamon McCann’s been reading what sounds like a fascinating book by a man who was a player during the early, and most traumatic years of the Northern Irish troubles… Eamon buys the argument that Unionism could to get itself off the tribal hook, and into an attractive, and fashionable space. He quotes Robert Ramsey here:
“To me, the most important aspect of the development of the Ulster Scots identity is that it would take (unionism) out of the internationally damaging context of religious division, into one which is not only understandable, but is even fashionably in harmony with the zeitgeist of today’s European Union.”
That strikes me as a hard sell in a space where most political parties, nationalist as well as unionist are pretty Eurosceptic… In fact the only party of the ‘big four’ that is in anyway Euro-friendly doesn’t look like it’s going to get a seat… yet the book does sound like a rattling good yarn for those of us just old enough to remember politics before 1972…
Underwood, Lets be honest regardless of religion what well known people in politics, sport or entertainment show up on stage at a Orange march?
“Underwood the Irish are liked for different reasons also, for instance Irish dancing and music is very popular with Russians, they were taught about Ireland in schools under communism and its continued.”
Really? I spent a few years in Russia and have to admit I never noticed it, and never told about it.
BTW, in most parts of Africa, as with most other places, Ireland is defined by its proximity to Britain – that is, ordinary people don’t know where in hell you’re talking about until you mention Britain and how close you are to it. Same with India.
As for this blinder of yours, “Than (sic) you start on the countries where the Irish moved to in great numbers over the years.” Yes, ask any black person in the USA about the abuse their people took (and still take, albeit to a somewhat lesser degree) from the profoundly racist Irish police officers in New York, Chicago, Boston etc.
And then this, “In fact the place most hostile to Ireland and the Irish is very much closer to home………”
I presume by this you mean the place you’ve chosen to live. Not hostile enough to drive you back home then?
In the course of this discussion, have the old enmities so overtly displayed by Sammy suddenly been re-ignited in you? You have begun to display a profoundly Irish trait, also much noticed around the world. The ability to smile and suck up to people while quietly resenting and even hating them. No doubt, reading your last remarks, this is something you employ in your dealings with the people you have chosen to live amongst and socialise with.
BTW, it is England you’re talking about, not Japan. We all get the documentaries, news programmes and newspapers that you alluded to – talk about over egging the pudding.
Underwood,
Anti Catholic Church domination was reasonable and sound in the context of facing a hostile takeover by a country where selling rubber johnny’s was a criminal offence. If it is less reasonable now then it is because Catholics have stopped paying attention to the mutterings of the Catholic church, i.e. the Catholic Church lost the fight.
The Gaelic revival was however ethnic which unionism was not. Hence it is divisive at an even more fundamental level, i.e. you can change your religious opinions but you can’t make yourself descended from Gaels. It places Protestants as a analogue of the Kurds who have to be “Turkified”.
One route to a united Ireland way well be an abandonment of this Gaelic ethnic nationalism. Already about 30% of the people on the island are not the descendants primarily of Gaels. It seems unlikely that a Bangladeshi “citizen of the world” would want to have their children spend precious time learning a dead language that none of their ancestors ever spoke.
If and when the descendants of the Gaels shrink below 50% on the island as a whole I think that northern unionists would feel a lot less antipathy to a united Ireland, provided they could see that their children were not going to be force gaelicised like the turkification of Kurds. But then again, if not for ethnic nationalism then what would be the point of independence for Ireland anyway.
JEB
For starters the Boers were rapidly anti British and in that had more in common with Irish Republicans and indeed there were Irish Brigades in the Boer army in its war with the British.
So? There were Irish regiments from the British Army there too. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers fought there. A quote from Winston Chruchill: “My earnest congratulations on the honour of the Dublin Fusiliers more than any other Regiment have won for the land of their birth. We are all wearing the Shamrock here.”
The whole notion of separateness for a people based on ethnicity and race has more in common with Irish Separatism than a Union advocated between the Scots, Irish, Welsh and English.
Enlighten us on what lay at the heart of ‘Irish Separatism’? Was it that we just couldn’t stand those of a different blood, or was it that we were just sick of being treated like criminals for who we were/are and being treated like 2nd class citizens in our own country? Tell me, in this grand coalition of the secular society which existed back in the day, how many prime ministers of the UK came from this island?
Irish unionists wanted a United Kingdom of many ethnicities and religons with the rights of all protected. Unionism took no glee in Partition – it was a last resort.
Just as long as those pesky papists knew their place! Catholic emancipation could only occur after the union of 1801, as the Prods in Ireland were scared shitless of being in a minority. “wanted a United Kingdom of many ethnicities and religions with the rights of all protected, as long as it didn’t interfere with Protestant dominance” is more like it. I didn’t realise that Ladybird publications were doing kiddie friendly versions of Irish history.
Unionism took no glee in Partition – it was a last resort To home rule? There was a brief window in history when it would have been possible to keep Ireland as a whole in the UK. But unionists here and the House of Lords over there wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Last resort me hole. 1916 could have been avoided completely. And tell me, was there any glee when they went against the border commission findings and the will of Tyrone and Fermanagh county councils when they created the border?
“dour, grimly religious, bereft of any attractive cultural traits, intolerant of all but themselves, fearful of progress and of exposure to the light of outside observation.”
I wouldn’t agree with that statement myself. Unionists are people like the rest of us and I avoid racial and sectarian stereotypes (probably from historically being on the wrong end of such things for a few centuries has made me sensitive).
Ah, yes, I see the old bile has been raised in you all right, and you’ve decided to throw in you’re lot with the Neanderthal Sammy.
So much for Moderate Man, waxing lyrical about Orwell’s essays on England – that didn’t last too long!
Don’t forget to paint the smile back on, and to dig out the ever so nice character, for the English friends you so resent.
Underwood, the place much closer to home I was referring to was northern Ireland, I suggest you re-read your posts to see where I’m coming from.
England and particularily London (from my experience) is very Irish friendly, the St Patricks day parade gets bigger and bigger every year, and a silly amount of Londoners claim Irish heritage.
Good grief, Irish cops abusing black people in the US, FFS underwood its 2009, and considering the abuse handed out to black people by representives of the UK, I’d say you where on thin ice with that one, the current President of America would agree with me I’m sure.
I’m surprised regarding Irish culture in Russia, in only 2 weeks in Moscow I came across it in a number of bars, here’s a taster http://www.russia-ic.com/culture_art/music/737/
In between all your travels have you managed to come up with even a Z list celeb who has been associated with the OO,
Underwood
The fact is most people even in the Republic are anti-English, even if for most it’s only in a vague sort of way. Try watching the English national team (any English national team) in a bar, for a start. The British anthem is turned down and then when the match or game starts everyone, to a man and a woman, is cheering the other side.
Are you sure you aren’t confusing us with Scotland?
Anti-Englishness is a default position in the South.
Poppycock. If sports is your only example, you’ve scrapped your way through the bottom of the barrel. Can you tell me what is the largest ethnic group living in the ROI? And can you also tell me how many of these have publicly stated the abuse they get while living and working here?
Actually I like the English
They got an awful hiding at the hands of the Normans and are only now recovering finally from that abuse 
?
Where would we be without Shakespeare ? Maynard Keynes , Magna Carta, the Premier League, the BBC , and Winnie the Pooh
? .
“Anti Catholic Church domination was reasonable and sound in the context of facing a hostile takeover by a country where selling rubber johnny’s was a criminal offence”
Kurt, so you think a bit of sectarianism is acceptable – no suprises there – but regarding birth control – doesnt the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act makes all abortions illegal in Norn Iron still? lol
The Normans still hold sway Greenflag, Parliament is opened in Normandy French,
can’t believe cricket and real ale didn’t make the list.
Wasn’t Shakespeare’s family the focus of a bit of secratarianism
Kurt
The Gaelic revival was however ethnic which unionism was not.
There was probably more Anglo-Irish involved in the Gaelic revival than actual pure blood Gaels!!
FFS Eoin Morgan’s been selected for England, that is just downright F’ing thieving
“And can you also tell me how many of these have publicly stated the abuse they get while living and working here?”
Try reading a recent essay by Naoise Nunn, published I think in Lives Entwined. Or read what Graeme Norton has to say about growing up as a Prod in the South.
And are you seriously trying to tell me that anti-Englishness isn’t strong in the South? I live there, FFS. I’ve grown up with it. From the one-sided history teaching in the classroom, to the snide comments at every opportunity from priests, parents, teachers, politicians and every other fucker of influence that could grab someone’s ear.
It’s typical that you all presumed I am a northern unionist – we don’t usually do much in the way of self-awareness do we.
As I said earlier, time to grow up and let go of the comfort blanket of self-pity. Or are we all going to remain just like Sammy, like a spotty teenager, grabbing at every compliment and using it as cover for our own lack of self-confidence.
Good evening, I’ve got work to do.
Forgot to mention, as well, Tony Booth and his latest wife being driven out of Ireland as the victim of an anti-English campaign against them.
Booth of all people.
Underwood
No self pity with me matey! I was cringing reading some of Sammy’s ‘sure aren’t we great’ posts.
I didn’t realise that because Graham was Protestant, it made him english, despite being born here. Are all Protestants on this island the property of England then?
Please state where I claimed you were a nordie? I disagree with you not because I was under the impression that you were a unionist, I disagreed with you because I’m a very sociable person by nature, I get around and through meeting with many, many English people living and working here,and hearing from them how they are getting on I refute your claim. Of course, I can’t speak for your personal experiences, but there are naturally un-likeable people out there who get a raw deal from everyone.
Underwood,
Yes the English get a terrible raw deal in this country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/apr/28/daniel-day-lewis-freedom-of-wicklow
Imagine being made freeman of Wicklow! They’re practically forcing him back on the boat.
Poor old Jeremy Irons is practically being hounded out of his pink castle!
I must warn my English mates that there’s an angry mob on the loose hounding english people…
Underwood,
just a tip – if you walk like a duck and post like a duck then some people will probably think you are a duck – but where you are from is irrelvant – but being able to sustain an arguement without coming over all emotional should perhaps be a target you set yourself.
Smug,
re. “Please state where I claimed you were a nordie?”
in defence of the boy Underwood (more shocking asumptions as he/she may well be of a female disposition) he did not say you/we had claimed he was a Unionist he said “presumed I am a northern unionist ” If you are going to diss me I shall have to pull you up for shoddy posting.
ps Would pompous dick be a fair translation of your moniker?
Smug O’ Toole
You’re seriously deluding yourself. And anybody with an ounce of honesty and wit who grew up in this place knows that you are.
Granted, the greater Dublin region is fine, but then it mostly always was.
Out in the sticks, though, things remain much as they always were.
Very seldom outright violence, but always that brooding, nasty, outcasting type of intimidation that we excel at. The sneaky petty vandalism at night sort of stuff – where nobody ever sees anything – that eventually wears people down.
Anyway, I do have a load of stuff to do.
Oh I nearly forgot – Goodnight Sammy, do try to move on and grow up, there’s a good lad.
“It must be cos I is Irish” gets a bit tiresome as an excuse after so many centuries.
underwood,
I suspect you may have a few bad experiences and they may be colouring your judgement a tad. There are intolerant feckers everywhere – its just that in some societies and ideologies such behaviours are not only tolerated but encouraged – most Irish and British commentator would agree that in the Orange/Unionist ideology that is in fact the case.
Oiche mhaith.
Do you reckon that’s the best way to look at South African politics, in a tribal light?
No I don’t – although it’s not a complete irrelevance. I was pointing out precisely that ethnic allegiance (I avoid the culturally loaded word “tribe”) is of only limited utility in understanding SA voting behaviour.
I think seeing Jacob Zuma as a class warrior is sort of funny though. Has anyone actually read his argument that what he did wasn’t rape? He may not be a convicted rapist but he is by his own admission a sleazebag who claims he can tell when women are “asking for it” and thinks a brisk shower after sex absolves him of his responsibility to take precautions against spreading HIV. Class warrior he may arguably be but he’s a disaster for working-class women.
“Where would we be without Shakespeare ? Maynard Keynes , Magna Carta, the Premier League, the BBC , and Winnie the Pooh
?” – Greenflag.
I suppose, Greenflag, we would be somewhere west of the island of Britain, at one edge of the Atlantic ocean, wondering what our mammies might be cooking up for the tea (or dinner more likely for Pooh type people).
Later we would revise punctuation for our English examination. .
meanwhile back at the ranch…. everyone else found all this talk pretty silly.
‘as Irish as Fish&Chips;’
Posted by fin on May 01, 2009 @ 03:49 PM
Perhaps the most profound utterance on Slugger ever!
Questions for Irish nationalists:
In the event of a politically unified island of Ireland, would Civil Service be limited to Gaelic speakers?
The whole of this string is made up of totally irrelevant spherical objects; and further more I wish that all people in secret societies would get a life and stop trying to bore to death the vast majority of sensible people with their ante deluvian and sectarian biggotted drivel. The only conclusion a sane person can draw is that perpetrators of this totally xenophobic plate of potage must have giant chips on their feeble shoulders as a well as an infinite inferiority complex.