DUP and Sinn Fein ready to exert ‘undue’ influence in London and Dublin?

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So Eamonn McCann thinks David Cameron is playing the Orange Card when it comes to the DUP:

The fact that Cameron could arrange a hail-fellow-well-met get-together with the DUP in his garden on the evening when he knew that the Sinn Féin leader would be under interrogation suggests his anxiety to secure DUP support to stay on as prime minister overrides other considerations about the North.

This doesn’t mean the timing of Adams’s arrest was designed to harm Sinn Féin at the polls. That is almost certainly not so. It does mean that British political leaders are as ready as ever when it suits them to play the Orange card.

Brian Feeney was concerned in yesterday’s Irish News that cosying up to the DUP would disturb the British PM’s ‘impartiality’ when it comes to Northern Ireland.

In fact, much like any future Irish government that includes Sinn Fein there are certain safeguards over devolved powers which means that short of a major constitutional crisis there is little direct influence Westminster or Leinster House can exert over Stormont.

In a political situation in which both the DUP and Sinn Fein could play a major king making role after the next British and Irish general elections we can expect both parties to exert as much ‘undue’ influence as they can.

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  • Neil

    Brian Feeney was concerned in yesterday’s Irish News that cosying up to the DUP would disturb the British PM’s ‘impartiality’ when it comes to Northern Ireland.

    He has no impartiality when it comes to Northern Ireland.

    As Declan Kearney said:

    By setting out the primacy of a single narrative, and rejecting the use of immunity as one instrument to assist in dealing with the past, the British Government has come out against the Haass compromises.

    The Conservatives are Unionist participants in ‘the process’, they just decided not to tell anyone until the negotiating had (supposedly) been done.

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/03/18/sfs-obscurantist-use-of-narrative-and-untying-the-knots-in-language-to-understand-what-is-really-being-said/

  • Morpheus

    I think it will be the other way around – London and Dublin will be exerting their influence on SF and the DUP.

    Finally. Mummy and Daddy took the stabilizers off too early and didn’t make sure we were capable of riding the bike before letting go.

  • tacapall

    Indeed Mick but the spanner in the works for the DUP would be Sinn Fein taking their seats at Westminster an unlikely scenario but not out of the question considering Sinn Fein has already recognised and toasted the Queen of Britain as a legitimate entity. In the grand scheme of things I suppose Sinn Fein could convince their grassroots that doing something unexpected or telling a lie, like swearing allegiance for a common purpose and using her parliament as a springboard to achieve a United Ireland, is simply another tactic in the political toolbox available to republicanism. What have they to lose, what integrity they ever had went out the window long long ago.

  • Morpheus

    FFS tac, change the record, it got really boring a long time ago. Look around, the people are buying what the Shinners are selling these days, unlike in years gone by. Things change and people change with the times, try it.

    Why wouldn’t McGuinness toast the Queen, the head of Ireland’s biggest trading partner, like any other Head of State? It is yet another example of a confident nationalism who can treat a Head of State with dignity and respect. What would you have him do as DFM? Headbutt? One inch punch? Judo chop? Compare and contrast with our First Minister and his outburst about the Pope, another head of State – the DFM did exactly what someone in his position should, the FM on the other hand showed his caliber,embarrassing himself and those he represents..

    Out of curiosity, at the same event there was a toast to The President and the people of Ireland – does that make the attending Peter Robinson any less of a unionist? No. So how on God’s green earth does toasting the Queen make McGuinness any less of a republican?

    It’s 2014, come join us

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Indeed, tacapall, and when those who still troop out to canvas or vote for SF have already swallowed so much, what’s an oath or two to Mrs Windsor “among friends.” And the thought of SF in coalition at Westminister with Cameron is just too delicious….

    They may achieve a United Ireland some day, but what will be left for anyone valuing integrity will hardly be worth having. For a little bitter, if innocent, amusement I try, at times, and imagine what Roger Casement’s comments might be on their shenanigans!

  • redstar2011

    Classic blind following the blind from Morpheus

    SF told us for decades that the Crown had no roe in Ireland and should never be recognised. What a difference official cats and sausage rolls with Mrs Windsor made

    Get real.

    Not even the Welsh Nats would give the Windsors house room- then again with MMG telling us we should all work for the British security forces -without telling us exactly when he started- what should we expect

  • redstar2011

    Lol- “official cars”- typo

  • tacapall

    “Things change and people change with the times, try it”

    Morpheus how can any person who considers themselves a republican accept the validity of an unelected entity that promotes privileged birth. This is indeed 2014 not 1614 we are citizens not subjects and for the majority of enlightened people around the world, every human being is born equal and has a right to achieve the highest positions of power, as long as the people believe in him/her and give their support freely and democratically – The ideals of true republicanism.

    What should McGuiness have done, well, not kowtowed to the unelected nor indulged with nobility enjoying the opulence paid for by the unprivileged.

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    ” So how on God’s green earth does toasting the Queen make McGuinness any less of a republican?”

    Morpheus

    I take it your question is rhetorical? If not 800 years springs to mind.

  • Mick Fealty

    Morpheus any idea where the Minister for agriculture and rural development failed to show at the Balmoral agricultural show?

  • Morpheus

    Who says anything about “accepting the validity of an unelected entity that promotes privileged birth”? It was a toast – a reciprocated toast – to a head of state ffs, get some perspective. It is possible to behave with dignity and respect when the situation calls for it without giving up any principles of your own, wouldn’t you agree? he may not agree with the monarchy but millions do and a person in his position should respect that. (and for the record more than half of Pliad Cymru had no problem meeting the Queen – again a sign of confidence)

    The Casement comment above me me smile. you think if he were alive today he wouldn;t be supporting Liverpool, drinking Coke, watching 24 having a weekly Chinese/Indian etc. and basically embracing the best that other cultures have to offer like the rest of us?

    Some people’s ideas of what it takes to be Irish are off the chart

  • Morpheus

    Absolutely no idea Mick – my interest and knowledge of both the Balmoral Show and the calendar of the Minister for agriculture and rural development are none existent.

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    Morpheus

    Are you really saying drinking Coke, watching 24 is basically embracing the best that other cultures have to offer. You deed to travel more.

    If you feel it is important to show respect to an unelected head of state, who sits at the pinnacle of all that is wrong with England, Scotland, the north east of Ireland and Wales and to do so is to act in a dignified manner I feel sorry for you.

    Forelock tugging to monarchy is not what republicans, whatever their nationality, are in business for.

    There was absolutely no reason why Mr Mcguinness had to debase himself and the movement he is a senior member of, he could have sent his apologies as he had a prior appointment.

    For christ sake man, the line has to be drawn somewhere, Still I suppose Dev set the tone for former Irish republicans and used the same type of sorry excuse as you, when he signed the German embassy in Dublin condolence book on the death of Hitler.

    Although have said that he was a giant compared to McGuinness.

  • tacapall

    Morpheus yes It is possible to behave with dignity and respect yet stand by the ideals that you supposedly espouse thats whats called principles. You cant run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds nor ride two horses at once. You are telling me to accept its 2014 and the next your defending courting the monarchy and respecting an entity that is unelected head of state, unelected commander in chief of British armed forces, unelected head of the commonwealth and unelected head of the church of England, the biggest landowner in the world and although a billionaire lives off the people like a parasite. How does wining and dining, toasting and respecting those who promote the opposite of what you believe advance in any way that 32 county democratic socialist republic that so many sacrificed their lives for.

  • gendjinn

    tacapall & Mickhall,

    fellas – the jury’s been in for decades – Collins was right & Dev was wrong. Ideological purity lost to pragmatic progress.

    MMG toasting the British head of state in her official residence during an official state visit by the IRISH president is just greasing the skids on the inevitable, unstoppable journey to re-unification.

    And how many times has the Republican movement had this purity battle? Courts, Gardai, Dail, Stormont…

  • Old Mortality

    Mickhall
    ‘Forelock tugging to monarchy is not what republicans, whatever their nationality, are in business for.’
    But he’s an Irish republican, the sort of republican that get’s commended by a bishop for his diligent mass attendance. No self-respecting republican outside Ireland or the USA could have survived that disgrace.

  • Morpheus

    Tac

    Save the cliches. Yes the Queen is the unelected head of those things but so what? Is anyone asking you to become a Royalist/Monarchist? I say again, it is possible for anyone to show some dignity and respect to a head of state – be it The Queen, Obama, Hollande, Solberg, whoever – without compromising their principles. In fact it shows strength of character to do so.

    Michall

    Trust me when I tell you that I am the last person you should feel sorry for. :)

    As for travel then I have been on the glaziers of Alaska to the West, The Great Wall of China to the East and many, many places in between – I think I am good in that department thank you very much :)

    I used the examples of 24, Coke and foreign cuisine as examples of outside influences which even the most Irish of Irish would be embracing and enjoying if they were here today. You think Casement, Dev and Collins wouldn’t be going for a kebab after a night on the tear?

    You say a line must be drawn. Apart from your baffling opposition to MMcG joining in a reciprocated toast, where do you draw this imaginary line of yours? Must we all be potato-munching, mass-going, Irish-dancing, GAA-playing, Glenroe-watching, Gaelic-speakers to be considered your version of Irish? I hate to break it to you but that was replaced by a cosmopolitan, high-tech Ireland many moons ago.

    Irish culture – dance, poetry, sports, literature etc. – is doing just fine and trust me when I say that it is not diluted in any way by showing a bit of respect at a State function.

  • Alan N/Ards

    MickHall

    de Valera was hardly a giant among republican’s. He was the man who handed over the independance of the Free State to a foreign power ….The vatican. What was the point of fighting for freedom from one foreign power just to give your freedom away to another foreign power? Republicans from every party in the Free State/ROI – FF/FG and SF etc were forlock tugging to their foreign ruler for decades. They were the mirror image of the unionist’s in NI.

  • Granni Trixie

    Look,I don’t have a lot of time for the Monarchy or the Pope but I assure you that if I was professinally or even socially required to mix with them I would. Why should there be a loss of face in someone like MMG toasting the queen…surely it was only cordiality and good manners not to mention a symbol of reconciliation following the good exam,e set by the Queen last year?

  • Morpheus

    Exactly GT, nothing for anyone to get their knickers in a knot over

  • Morpheus

    What he did was a sign of maturity and confidence – exactly the opposite of scouring away and hiding by offering ‘prior arrangements’ as an excuse.

  • tacapall

    “Yes the Queen is the unelected head of those things but so what”

    I speak only for myself Morpheus but have I as a republican no right to give my opinion on kowtowing nobility by a republican who’s a member of a party who frequently attempt to persuade or encourage me and others like me to partake in British elections ? Is that not strength of character to question or is having a different viewpoint a privilege reserved only for people like yourself who support Sinn Fein.

  • Morpheus

    Of course you have the right to express your opinion – just as I have the right to rubbish it. You are making a mountain out of a teeney-weeny molehill for reasons best known to yourself.

    As for not taking part in elections then again that is up to you but in case it has escaped your attention the overwhelming majority of people from all over this island voted for the GFA and in it makes a provision for reunification. It’s not perfect – in fact I am a big critic of the wording – but the only way to bring about a united Ireland, and I am assuming as a republican that this is what you want, is by engaging in the political process and making change happen. Sitting at home come election day is a complete waste of time and is nothing more than bitchin’ from the sidelines about the game going on in front of you. Get in the game.

    For the record, I do not support SF but I would have absolutely no problem in saying that I do if I did. I would consider them as a possible transfer because I like the direction they are going in but not in this election cycle because in my eyes they are making too many stupid mistake to deserve my vote – Newry play-park being top of the list.

  • http://www.organizedrage.com/ Mickhall

    Alan N/Ards

    I did not say de Valera was a giant among Irish republicans, I said he was a giant compared with McGuinness and so he was, however the way he stood up to Churchill and Roosevelt bullying during WW2 was magnificent and his reply to Churchill’s mean and nasty speech at the end of that war, which he directed at the 26 counties was IMO was one of the greatest speeches of all time.

    Morpheus
    What McGuinness did was not a sign of maturity and confidence it was a sign of capitulation, you may not see it as that, but being a reasonably intelligent person, one day you will I am sure.

    Why do you insult you fellow countrymen and women by writing they were once “all potato-munching, mass-going, Irish-dancing, GAA-playing, Glenroe-watching, Gaelic-speakers to be considered your version of Irish? I hate to break it to you but that was replaced by a cosmopolitan, high-tech Ireland many moons ago.”

    That is a very weird thing to suggest and I might add not a little racist.

    You seem to be impressed by State power and especially the mockney ruritanian niceties of the British crown. Don’t be, did you ever ask yourself why the British state insists their ‘guest’ at such banquets demean themselves and dress in white tie and tales as if their members of some 1920s palm court orchestra. Few other heads of state insist on such tom foolery.

    Why do you feel Cameron who hates Irish republicanism like it’s an infectious disease, at a banquet of 100 plus people shuffled up to bold Marty photographer in tow?

    best regards

    Mick

  • tacapall

    “You are making a mountain out of a teeney-weeny molehill for reasons best known to yourself”

    Maybe I earned the right to criticize and make a mountain out of a molehill as you would call it. Maybe I sacrificed more in my life than Gerry Adams or McGuinness, thats what gives me that right.

    “As for not taking part in elections then again that is up to you but in case it has escaped your attention the overwhelming majority of people from all over this island voted for the GFA and in it makes a provision for reunification”

    Yes it does allow for a referendum on uniting the two states but that referendum can only be decided by our unelected British overlord who can refuse the desired referendum on the grounds that she does “Not believe” there will be a positive outcome.

    Both parts of Ireland give their respective opinions to their respective governments, one Irish the other British, I happen to an Irishman who lives on the British controlled 6 counties who sees Britain and Westminster as having no legitimate right to even call an election in Ireland since 1918.

    “Sitting at home come election day is a complete waste of time and is nothing more than bitchin’ from the sidelines about the game going on in front of you. Get in the game”

    Why is it a complete waste of time to not take part in a British election in which a significant low registering and resulting low tun out send the same if not more important message to those who wish control you ie the British controlled and financed parties that wish to rubber stamp British policy in Ireland.

    “Sitting at home come election day is a complete waste of time and is nothing more than bitchin’ from the sidelines about the game going on in front of you. Get in the game”

    I dont know what I’ll be doing on election day but I certainly wont be wasting my time involving myself in a process that will deliver nothing but further diversion in the road to unification.

    “For the record, I do not support SF but I would have absolutely no problem in saying that I do if I did. I would consider them as a possible transfer because I like the direction they are going in but not in this election cycle because in my eyes they are making too many stupid mistake to deserve my vote – Newry play-park being top of the list”

    You dont support Sinn Fein but you defend some of their actions but arrogantly believe you have the right to insult and criticise myself and others who also dont support Sinn Fein for actions that I or they believe is a stupid mistake.

  • Dixie Elliott

    Always look on the bright side of life de do…

    Big Bob: “It’s your disposable phone Gerry.”

    Kim Jong-un: “Halo Jelly that you Jelly Adims?”

    Gerry Adams: “Ta sé myself mo chara, bout ye?”

    Kim Jong-un: “You get big murial like me Jelly?” You new dictator people’s Republic of Norn Eyeland. Yes?”

    Gerry Adams: “Well actually no Kim mo chara, That would be Marty and he’d be Deputy Dictator of the New Republic of The North of Ireland.”

    Kim Jong-un: “Where you Dictate then Jelly?”

    Gerry Adams: “I’m down in Louth mo chara.”

    Kim Jong-un: “You make the fun of me Jelly Adims? I no speak like that, I say South like South Korea. You in Peoples Republic of South Ireland smart cunty bills!”

    Line goes dead….

    Big Bob: “Who was that Gerry?”

    Gerry Adams: “That Kim Jong boyo. Do you remember I sent you over to give him lessons in public speaking?”

  • Dixie Elliott

    Psst tacapall their leader has a teddy bear called Ted, if they still believe in what he is filling their heads with then you’d be better just to amuse yourself listening to them.

    I enjoyed some of that stuff above…

    “Why wouldn’t McGuinness toast the Queen, the head of Ireland’s biggest trading partner, like any other Head of State? It is yet another example of a confident nationalism …”

    LOL Cracker!!

  • cynic2

    “the Minister for agriculture and rural development failed to show at the Balmoral agricultural show”

    Paranoid fear of cows or just disinterest

  • cynic2

    Why wouldn’t McGuinness toast the Queen …..after all he is a British Minister in a devolved assembly that LIz allows to take some minor local decisions

  • cynic2

    “No self-respecting republican outside Ireland or the USA could have survived that disgrace.”

    ….but they can survive murdering thousands of their fellow country me and women …… that’s some ideology you have there hey …hope you are proud of it

  • cynic2

    “the Haass compromises”

    another stock phrase. They pick up sometime proposed in talks that they support then say it was ‘the compromise’ – when no-one else agreed it

  • cynic2

    “Morpheus how can any person who considers themselves a republican accept the validity of an unelected entity that promotes privileged birth.”

    …..like Seanad Eireann that has an electoral system, worse than the hated Stormont in 69.

  • Morpheus

    Cynic

    Are you physically incapable of writing everything in a single post?

    Tac

    I don’t know you from Adam or what you have sacrificed but what I do know is that you have attempted to make a a reciprocated toast into something it isn’t.

    Which is better – offering pitiful excuses and hiding or addressing a situation? As DFM he didn’t hide and instead treated her the way he would treat any of the world leaders I mentioned above and he did it without conceding any of his republican principles. Look at the arse Robinson made of himself when it came to the Pope potentially coming to Northern Ireland – he embarrassed himself and his supporters and made himself look like a bigoted old fool – do you think anyone wants to see someone of that caliber at the head of nationalism? I would much rather have a man who is confident in himself and his position and can act with dignity and respect when the situation calls for it rather than that sorry, sniveling wreck of a man.

    Don’t you understand that if you – and people who share your thought-process – disengage with the political process then there is no way on earth that any SoS will be confident that a border poll would succeed? And you know what that means right? Because of people disengaging the nationalist vote has dropped by 48k since the GFA, imagine the message it would send if those 48k started voting nationalist again? The SoS would be put in an impossible position.

    Or are they right? Is nationalism on its arse?

    Listen, the GFA is not ideal, in fact it has some glaring problems, but it is what it is – we voted for it, from Coleraine to Cork and it’s the only show in town. People can sit on their arses moaning about what we have agreed on or they can get off their arses and push for change – that is what I mean by ‘get in the game.’

    Dixie

    I am sorry but the intellectual content of your ‘LOL, Cracker’ was too much, can you put that into layman terms please? :)

  • cynic2

    “Are you physically incapable of writing everything in a single post?”

    Its a matter of choice and where there appear to be several different conversations running in parallel on different themes I split my responses up

    You need to embrace diversity!

  • cynic2

    “that referendum can only be decided by our unelected British overlord” a power that SF demanded in the negotiations not the Unionists. Knowing theu would lose heavily, this allows them to milk the electoral sheep by calling for a referendum secure in the knowledge that there cannot be one

  • cynic2

    ” who sees Britain and Westminster as having no legitimate right to even call an election in Ireland since 1918.”

    You can see what you want. Legally and constitutionally you are wrong – and you know it

  • cynic2

    “involving myself in a process that will deliver nothing but further diversion in the road to unification.”

    I was with you until the last bit. Your real grievance I suspect is that there is no ‘road to unification’ in the foreseeable future as de vast majority of people in de Nuth will vote for Union. Sorry about that – but thats the way of the political world

  • Morpheus

    Three posts when you could just as easily write it all in one is an example of diversity is it? Hmmmmmm :)

    I suggest a re-read of the GFA cynic – your understanding off. There is most definitely a road to reunification contained within it and the people of Ireland can choose to follow it if they so choose and both Governments are legally bound to implement the will of the majority. It is not perfect – the fact that a single politician that none of us voted for can conclude that a border poll would succeed or fail based on undetermined criteria is number 1 problem on the list – but it is very clearly there none the less.

    As for how many people want reunification then there are different schools of thought, each equally valid if they are based in fact. We can look at the election results, the census and the polls but what you tend to find is that people pick and choose the bits which suits their particular agenda and ignores the rest.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Hiya Morpheus, sorry to drag you away from the wit and wisdom of Cynic 2, but:

    “The Casement comment above me me smile. you think if he were alive today he wouldn;t be supporting Liverpool, drinking Coke, watching 24 having a weekly Chinese/Indian etc. and basically embracing the best that other cultures have to offer like the rest of us?”

    Best? Poor old Roger, coming from the black sheep end of his family, had all of the disadvantages of being from the Antrim gentry, and few of the advantages, but, even though he camped out with friends, he did not end up going to a Rathcool school and living in a wee high rise flat.

    So less coke than Romanée Conti (or Le Montrachet with fish and chips) the Lyric or a good Medbh McGuckian poem (RC was just too intelligent for Heaney) rather than watching 24, and like myself, he probably picked up the use of spices while on his travels, so he could prepare his won curry every night! And Liverpool? Cricket, please!

    And if Jeff Dudgeon is right, “embracing the best that other cultures have to offer like the rest of us” has an interesting sub-text!

  • SeaanUiNeill

    And Roger himself offers an interesting percedent for Marty’s whispered knighthood in the offing……….

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Sorry, I appear to have contracted Cynic 2′s problem of multi-postings, logging off and going for a stiff medicinal drink before the sun passes the yardarm……

  • tacapall

    “Don’t you understand that if you – and people who share your thought-process – disengage with the political process then there is no way on earth that any SoS will be confident that a border poll would succeed? And you know what that means right? Because of people disengaging the nationalist vote has dropped by 48k since the GFA, imagine the message it would send if those 48k started voting nationalist again? The SoS would be put in an impossible position”

    Morpheus you believe if every Irishman and woman accepted the right of Britain to organise elections in Ireland to a British administered body that simply rubber stamps British policy in Ireland can and will eventually deliver the united or unified Ireland that will finally bring to an end the almost 1000 year old argument between the Irish people and the British establishment, I dont agree with you.

    I cant disengage from the political process if I never engaged in it in the first place, while I do agree that politics can move a situation forward, that can only work if all engaged in whats known as British politics follow the rules but unfortunately as history has shown the British government will always act in its own interests rather than the wishes of the Irish people, we have been down this path before, remember 1918.

    I believe that if every Irishman and woman sat back and thought about the implications of not recognising the British right to have an input in Irish politics by not registering to vote and taking no part in British politics, for a start it would remove the very real assumption by many that our political parties and politicians are more interested in their political careers and the financial benefits that are available keeping the pot stirring rather than putting the people and the country first and secondly we dont need the British overlords permission to hold our own kind of referendum. This non participation, if it was adopted by the majority would send a clear message to the British establishment the opinions and the wishes of the Irish people.

    .

  • tacapall

    Have you decided to censor political debate now Mick ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    I am a republican (as in the UK sense of the word : Republic Campaign) but most people in the UK are not and it is important to respect the head of state of any country when acting in an official capacity.

    It’s pretty silly to argue that opposing the handshake is necessary due to principle; the IRA murdered the Queen’s family members. Being able to put your civic duty before your personal concerns is a mark of statesmanship and confidence in your own position, and it is to the credit of both HMQ and McGuinness that it was done.

  • Morpheus

    Tac

    The people of Ireland voted for the GFA, it is their will that a peaceful and democratic method will be used to reunify Ireland if the majority want it to be reunified. It is the will of the people of Ireland that the GFA is the only show in town to bring about reunification so I suggest you embrace it.

    I totally appreciate that Northern Ireland was formed down the barrel of 25,000 guns and 4m rounds of ammunition imported from Germany and the argument can be made that it was illegally partitioned against the democratic will of the majority but we are where we are. Whether you like it or not by endorsing the GFA the people of Ireland accepted en mass that Northern Ireland was part of the UK because that is what the majority at that time wanted. BUT the GFA is also the peaceful and democratic way to bring about reunification if the majority want it – both the British and Irish governments are legally bound to implement the will of the majority ffs. So if the majority north of the border and then the majority south of the border vote for it to happen then it WILL happen.

    The problem with people like you not engaging in the political process in any way is that it solidifies the belief that there is no appetite for Ireland to be reunified – and maybe there isn’t. I have read several times the metaphor that nationalism is like a dog chasing a car, they enjoy the case alright but by Christ they wouldn’t know what to do if the ever caught the car. I think it is apt. Do you just enjoy the chase or do you want to catch the car?

    I am not saying that you should vote SF or SDLP but by not voting for any party/independent who wants a UI then you are saying that you are happy with the status quo and do not want change. In effect it is because of people who do not get involved in the political process that Ireland will never be reunified. Using the metaphor above, the people who don’t engage don’t even chase the car, they talk about the chase from the footpath.

    But just to be clear, it matters not a jot if loads of people don’t vote as a protest, only valid votes are actually counted, they don’t have a box in the counting centre for protests. In the elections for Police Commissioners in England voter turnout was around 15% in some areas – guess, what? Come Monday morning after the results came out the Police Commissioners took office because that is how democracy works. Those with the most votes take office.

  • cynic2

    “a road to reunification contained within” the GFA

    Of course there is and that’s what SF and the DUP screamed about 20 years ago. The problem is that roads have to be taken and all the polls suggest that while the zealots remain interested no-one else is.

    Almost 20 years later are we a foot further down that road? In 20 more years will we be? Nope

    We can dream and plan to devote our whole GDP to building a rocket to the moon in the next 20 years – but will we actually do it?

  • tacapall

    ” BUT the GFA is also the peaceful and democratic way to bring about reunification if the majority want it – both the British and Irish governments are legally bound to implement the will of the majority ffs”

    Morpheus can you not reply without using expletives in every post, it neither adds to your argument nor encourages me in any way to consider or respect your opinion. Also why subtlety suggest that any other way other than the GFA to achieve a unified or united Ireland would not be peaceful and democratic, is deciding not to partake in elections now deemed violent and undemocratic.

    “The problem with people like you not engaging in the political process in any way is that it solidifies the belief that there is no appetite for Ireland to be reunified”

    People like me dont have a problem, we have an opinion. I know thats hard for some to accept but nevertheless those who dont share the belief that playing footsie under the table with those who for almost a thousand years have denied us our right to decide our own destiny will get us anywhere other than boosting the coffers of those who are engaging in it. We are entitled to have an opposite opinion and exercising that right in no way dilutes or sends a message to the British that we accept the status quo in any way nor does it mean we dont believe in democracy or politics, it simply means I or we believe there is a different path we could travel and get to our destination faster without the baggage of kowtowing or humiliating oneself by partaking in aristocratic outdated rituals.

    “But just to be clear, it matters not a jot if loads of people don’t vote as a protest, only valid votes are actually counted, they don’t have a box in the counting centre for protests”

    You cant seriously believe the above Morpheus. What government anywhere in the world especially the British, given its history in Ireland, could pretend otherwise and dismiss the actions and opinions of the overwhelming majority if they let it be known by way of refusing to recognise the British right to decide our form of government in this part of Ireland. Do you believe Stormont would still operate in this day and age if it was only Unionists elected. Do you believe the British government could ignore the refusal by a majority of Irish people to recognise or partake in British sponsored elections ?

  • Morpheus

    Let me think….

    Nationalist parties hold 40% of the seats at Stormont, they hold 40% of the seats in local Councils, they took 41% of the votes at the last European elections with a poll-topping SF candidate taking more than 40% more votes than the next 2 candidates, they took 45% of the seats at Westminster elections taking 42% of the votes and SF topping the poll.

    Then there is the progress made south of the border.

    I’d say nationalism hasn’t exactly been sitting on their hands, would you? :)

  • Morpheus

    Tac

    Firstly, I suggest nothing – subtly or otherwise – about ‘any other way other than the GFA to achieve a unified or united Ireland’ for the simple reason that there is no other way – the GFA is the democratic will of the majority in Ireland.

    Secondly, I didn’t say you had a problem. I said that the problem is that non-participation in the political process solidifies the belief that there is no appetite for Ireland to be reunified.

    Thirdly. no one is denying the people of Ireland their right to decide their own destiny. In fact the opposite is true…both Governments are legally bound to implement the will of the majority to decide the destiny of Ireland. If the majority want reunification then they can make it happen.

    Fourthly, you are indeed entitled to hold the belief that non-participation is an effective tool to bring about change but even if the Governments see that lots of people did not participate in an election, then what? Does the border disappear? Does partition end? Can you show me any other examples where a Government has thrown in their cards because some of the population refused to participate in elections? I don’t know the answer to that by the way, I am genuinely interested if it has ever happened.

    I take it you would vote in a border poll, right? Well in order to get that border poll the signs have to be there beforehand that the border poll would actually succeed – that’s the reality of it all. That, as far as we know, means signs have to be there in the election results, polls etc. None participation does none of those things.

    Pro-UI parties got 22.5% of the total number of votes possible in the last assembly election – do less than 1 in 4 want a UI in Northern Ireland? Or are there thousands of nationalists out there, like you, not participating? Imagine they participated and all of a sudden 40% of the electorate voted for pro-UI parties, isn’t that a much stronger position to be in? That will make the SoS take notice, don’t you agree?

  • Dixie Elliott

    ‘Confident Nationalism’ said Morpheus in regards to McGuinness toasting The British Queen…

    The front page Headline in The Derry Journal exposes McGuinness as having sided with Robinson in advocating Coleraine as the first enterprise zone.

    The SDLP’s Colm Eastwood had asked McGuinness on May 12th what involvement his department had in pinpointing Coleraine and McGuinness in turn placed responsibility for the decision with DETI under the charge of the DUP’s Arlene Foster.

    However a letter has emerged which was jointly signed by McGuinness and Robinson and sent to the British Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osbourne asking him to choose Coleraine as the first designated Enterprise Zone for Northern Ireland announced in this years Budget on March 19th. This despite the fact that his ‘own native city has the greater economic need.’

    Recently I wrote a letter to the paper asking why had local politicians gone quiet on Project Kelvin and the subsequent Coleraine enterprise zone which was supposed to have come to Derry in 2009. I quoted Martina Anderson who was clambering to take credit at the time as saying, “the announcement was highly significant. It demonstrates clearly that when we ‘Stand up for Derry’ with a united voice we can make change happen,”

    Well it’s clear that McGuinness has not only sided with the DUP in shafting Derry but at the same time he has made his party colleague look very foolish…

  • cynic2

    “exposes McGuinness as having sided with Robinson”

    Aye…it should have gone to oursuns not them buggers

  • cynic2

    “will of the majority in Ireland”

    Which doesn’t matter a toss as its the will of the majority in de nurth that has first billing

    ” no appetite for Ireland to be reunified.” – which is probably true. With every year in the south they may more and more feel that they need us Culchies like a hole in the head. Exporting bombs to the Republic intensifies that

    “no one is denying the people of Ireland their right to decide their own destiny” Read the act – its a dual lock. Both must vote yes

    “that will make the SOS take notice” – yes of course. As will pigs flying, the four horsemen appearing in the sky and Gerry Adams admitting it was all a huge mistake and the game is up on a UI

  • cynic2

    Dixie

    On every possible level you are being shafted. Still look on the positive side.

    1 its almost certainly a trade off for a SF Pet Project somewhere else

    2 It will keep Derry MOPERY going well into the next generation and that has to be a good thing. Cant have too may middle class votes trending to the Stoops can we

  • Dixie Elliott

    Morpheus said…

    “the overwhelming majority of people from all over this island voted for the GFA and in it makes a provision for reunification…”

    So did the Sunningdale Agreement.

    Therefore was Gerry Fitt years ahead of Gerry Adams, after all he was Deputy Chief Executive in that assembly?

  • tacapall

    “Exporting bombs to the Republic intensifies that”

    Can you clarify what you mean above Cynic ?

  • Morpheus

    Dixie

    I’m confused, what has me saying that a reciprocated toast was a sign of a confident nationalism got to do with a project in Coleraine? Did you just want to throw that story out there regardless of context?

    Cynic

    “Which doesn’t matter a toss as its the will of the majority in de nurth that has first billing”

    And? Oh please don’t tell me you are talking about this mythical, non-existent unionist “veto” are you? Bless :)

    “With every year in the south they may more and more feel that they need us Culchies like a hole in the head. Exporting bombs to the Republic intensifies that”

    So your plan for the future of Northern Ireland relies on making it such a shit-hole that no one wants it eh? Classy :)

    “Read the act – its a dual lock. Both must vote yes”

    Has anyone said otherwise? What a weird comment.

    “yes of course. As will pigs flying, the four horsemen appearing in the sky and Gerry Adams admitting it was all a huge mistake and the game is up on a UI”

    Listen cynic, the future of NI is one of 2 things:
    1. a Northern Ireland with a Catholic majority (who simply refuse to vote DUP/UUP/TUV/PUP/ABC/B&Q/NS/FGAU) leading to a dwindling of the influence of Loyal Orders and political unionism or
    2.a UI
    Which do you prefer?

  • cynic2
  • cynic2

    Listen cynic, the future of NI is one of 2 things:

    Oh ‘LIsten’ is it then. Crystal ball have we?

    “Has anyone said otherwise?” – yes you have in the ‘mythical unionist veto’ PS unionist = pro union not the sectarian definition that you cannot get beyond

  • Morpheus

    “Oh ‘LIsten’ is it then. Crystal ball have we?”

    I don’t know how you look at the census figures cynic but I use the internet, I don’t need a crystal ball :)

    “yes you have in the ‘mythical unionist veto”

    Excuse me? What has this non-existent veto got to do with a referendum needed on both sides of the border? Where exactly did I say that there doesn’t need to be a vote on both sides of the border for reunification to happen if the majority want it?

    <i."PS unionist = pro union not the sectarian definition that you cannot get beyond"

    I think you’ll find that I said that Catholics refuse to vote for unionist parties in any significant numbers – 1% COMBINED according to the last NILT. I am under no illusion that there are Catholics who want NI to remain part of the UK but it won’t be the DUP/UUP/PUP/TUV’s version of Northern Ireland where Catholics know their place as second class citizens.

    But well done you, that was 2 points about 2 different issues in the same post. :)

  • FuturePhysicist

    DUP and Sinn Fein ready to exert ‘undue’ influence in London and Dublin?

    When?