Gilmore: Two governments may intervene over #Haass

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Eamon Gilmore is to give an interview to the Sunday Politics on the failure of the five parties to agree a deal during the Haass talks.

I have been critical in the past of the lack of involvement of the two governments throughout the entire process but instead of criticising Gilmore for showing upto the party late, I will just be grateful that he showed up at all.

In the interview Gilmore spoke about an urgency that needed to be injected into this process

I don’t think there is a very long period of time within which this can continue on. There is an urgency about getting these issues resolved.

I think if there is an intervention, I think it will be an intervention by both governments together.

We are agreed that this is something that both governments will work together on.

Reading this I am posed to ask the question that surely the time for urgency was intervening two weeks before the talks ended and not two weeks after they had collapsed?

Anyway, we may be back to the days of seeing officials from both governments locked in a room at Castle buildings trying to hammer out a deal. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

UPDATE-UUP Leader Mike Nesbitt says it is ‘unhelpful’ and these issues are not for the Irish government to intervene on.

UPDATE-DUP MP Gregory Campbell has hit out at  Gilmore’s comments

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  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “I have been critical in the past of the lack of involvement of the two governments throughout the entire process”

    David, I’d be critical about the lack of openness about the involvement of London and Dublin in the recent talks. For all we know, the Haass team drafts could have been compiled in collaboration with London and Dublin officials. Perhaps the local parties provided little of substance other than window-dressing.

  • cynic2

    So if Unionists don’t agree with proposals the Irish will intervene to force them through anyway. So whats the point of Stormont then?

    There is a flaw in this argument however. How will they persuade the current SoS to spend enough time in NI to actually do anything about it?

  • between the bridges

    Newsflash…ROI bails out fleggers PLC…

  • Gopher

    If I were unionists I would not be too worried about the Republic being in talks. I would much rather agree stuff with The Republic than the SDLP and SF, since the agreement the South have been model neighbours and if unionists put their thinking caps on they would see the benefits of Southern participation in any talks about the past and flags and the like.

  • DC

    @gopher

    You are correct – where are the liberal parties within nationalism, nowhere to be seen.

    The RoI has become more Europeanised and moved on.

    I think this statement by Gilmore is as a result of him and indeed both governments reading Slugger in general and picking up in particular on comments Mick Fealty made about things – the OFMDFM collective -going into the ditch, perhaps never to come out as one again, after McGuinness’s damaging outburst last Thursday night.

    Martin McGuinness’s comments were clearly very damaging and this is a steady the ship intervention.

  • Sp12

    “Martin McGuinness’s comments were clearly very damaging”

    And also very true.

  • cynic2

    Sp12

    ON that analysis do you believe that teh SDLP also were one and teh same with SF during their murder campaign?

    For the record I don’t but they did share the same political objective

  • DC

    They were damaging because the comments are not true or perhaps they are as true as in Belfast City Hall Alliance, SDLP and Sinn Fein are one and the same thing.

  • sean treacy

    Aye right DC, the 2 governments are going to act because of something Mick Fealty said on Slugger.They must be after one of Micks “awards”!

  • redstar2011

    Of course the comments were true and accurate. The dogs in the street know the Uvf is organising Twadell along with the OO – they dont exactly hide it

  • DC

    ‘Mick Fealty said on Slugger.They must be after one of Micks “awards””

    They must have read what he said and they must go by his good judgement.

    On that basis it may not be too long before Mick is turned into a Lord and given a formal role to play because of his background in NI politics, failing that he should be honoured by the Queen next year for his contribution to NI politics. I am not quite sure how it works – CBE or OBE, Knighted perhaps!?

  • Sp12

    Cynic, do you have difficulty in distinguishing between a consistent shared public platform in order to whip up the proles for their ‘human rights’ (haha) and your example of a shared political objective? (even though they had vastly different views on how to arrive at it)
    Of course you don’t, but it’s the best you could come up with to avoid the seeing what everyone else can see, even Unionists at Stormont it would seem ;)

  • 241934 john brennan

    Gilmore and Villiers can huff and puff as much as they like, but it won’t make a blind bit of difference. It’s up the local political N.I. parties – i.e. flegs is devolved matter – so there is no big stick that either the British or Irish governments can use to force the issue
    So are the local parties going to agree Haass any time soon? Never mind the stick, The big carrot for the local parties is to have no agreement this side of the May election. So it is electorally convenient for the DUP and SF, that the First and Deputy First minsters to continue ritually bad mouthing each other , at least until the end of May.

  • DC

    @sp12

    Gerry Adams and Liam Adams – one and the same thing, working together?

  • redstar2011

    Eh DC???
    The link being they’re brothers???

    Daft

  • Sp12

    @DC

    Blue WKD and red WKD - one and the same?

  • GEF

    What if both UK & ROI governments and the 5 parties at Stormont all come together in an amicable agreement, but the loyalists refuse to accept it and still intend to hold protest parades and man the Twaddel Ave camp over the 3 OO lodges being prevented marching up the Crumlin Road to Ligonel?

  • cynic2

    “whip up the proles for their ‘human rights’ (haha)”

    My how things repeat themselves.

    The utter contempt for unionists makes you sound like a Johnny McQuade caricature circa 1966

  • cynic2

    DC

    “sharing the same platform,”

    and at times the same bathroom when they lived together in Gerry’s house – though perhaps Gerry has a Throne of Gold installed for personal use only????

  • cynic2

    “the 3 OO lodges being prevented marching ”

    I thought it was 3 lodges with about 50 orangemen an 200 brown paper baggers and millies

  • cynic2

    ” Gilmore and Villiers can huff and puff”

    Who is Villiers?

  • Sp12

    “The utter contempt for unionists ”

    ohh do stop moping, Unionists is too broad a term. Basil McCrea is a Unionist for example, I have nothing but respect for Basil.
    I know plenty of Bogside and Creggan women that would give him a personal vote after the way he campaigned for their Pink ladies group.

    But yes, I do have contempt for rioting WKD swigging idiots who equate the term human rights with the ‘right’ to march where they are not wanted in order to be as offensive as they possibly can to people they consider to be lesser than themselves.

    Having said that, they do a great job of destroying the Union from within.
    Yeooo, no surrender,watp, yeoooooo etc ad naseum

  • redstar2011

    GEF-What if both UK & ROI governments and the 5 parties at Stormont all come together in an amicable agreement, but the loyalists refuse to accept it and still intend to hold protest parades and man the Twaddel Ave camp over the 3 OO lodges being prevented marching up the Crumlin Road to Ligonel

    Impossible GEF. The loyalists/Uvf/OO are part of the unionists negotiating team so any deal cannot be without them

  • cynic2
  • cynic2

    Redstar

    If they all do a deal that’s great

    But to get an agreed deal its likely that both the OO and the Residents Groups (all flavours ) will have to give a bit. What if none of them accept it. What do you just focus on the OO? Will SF order the residents groups to stand down?

  • redstar2011

    Youre somewhat out of touch/ date in your thinking if you think Res Grouos are controlled by SF. I can assure you SF do not decide the policy for example on Garvaghy- much as they’d like to!!!!

    As regards agreement the whole point of the OO in Belfast is to be triumphalist and provocative so they wont/ cant agree to march only where they are wanted. They need faced down, period.

  • Sp12

    @cynic
    needs more yeoooo

  • http://www.selfhatinggentile.blogger.com tmitch57

    @David,

    John Paul McCarthy at the Irish Independent had a bit different of a take on the wisdom of letting the two governments solve NI’s problems based on recent history.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/wisdom-of-letting-norths-two-tribes-settle-differences-29929374.html

    I agree with him that usually the two sides tell at least the partial truth about their opponents but are less than completely honest about themselves.

  • Framer

    Will he apologise for funding the Provisionals into existence, open up all the state files including those of the Irish security services and compensate those who were bereaved as a result of his government’s refusal to extradite IRA men for 30 years (for ‘political offences’)?
    Thought not, so nothing doing.

  • cynic2

    Redstar

    “Youre somewhat out of touch/ date in your thinking if you think Res Grouos are controlled by SF.”

    I largely agree. So why then negotiate with them if they have no control on what happens? Do they even represent the other side of the OO equation?

    Lets just look at the other side of that quotation too.

    “the whole point of the Residents Groups is to be triumphalist and provocative so they wont/ cant agree to the OO marching even in areas where they traditionally have done so and have a clear interest in that shared space. “

  • Mc Slaggart

    cynic2

    Can you explain why the OO/Bands want to march were they are not wanted?

    Example:

    I had a personal reason why I did not want a sf republican march in Castlederg.

    What I could not understand is why members of the OO objected? They took in wounded and dead from a vast region of Tyrone and said how can one should not commemorate terrorists in places were the terror took place. At the same time the OO members pay
    loyalist bands to march???????

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Eamon Gilmore made a curious claim; he claimed that the Irish government was a co-guarantor of the 1998 Agreement whereas it was merely a co-signatory. Each state government retained sovereignty within its own jurisdiction.

  • Kevsterino

    @Nevin, I think it is even more curious that HMG haven’t made the same point as you do above. Could it be they believe they need all the help they can get, including Dublin and, God forbid, the yanks?

  • cynic2

    Can you explain why the OO/Bands want to march were they are not wanted?

    in general no and I don’t defend it generally

    At Ardoyne though its the only viable route from their area to the city centre and they pass through the disputed road which is the interface been the Protestants and Catholics. So I can see their point there

    There is also the point of ” were (sic) they are not wanted”. Does one community have the right to exclude another from a public shared space? What if they were black or gay? Would you agree with a ‘no blacks or no gays stance by the community?

    What is the motivation for hating them so much?

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    kevsterino, I suspect London likes to hide behind Dublin skirts should the USA express its ‘concerns’ :)

  • Mc Slaggart

    “At Ardoyne though its the only viable route from their area to the city centre”

    Their is one!

    The OO said it was not suitable.

    The Irish government said they would pay to get to the standard the OO wanted.

    The OO said it would be still not suitable.

  • Mc Slaggart

    cynic2

    ” Does one community have the right to exclude another from a public shared space? ”

    Recall Unionism crying about Castlederg. Its a town with a 60% Catholic population and unionist parades nearly every weekend over the summer.

    Unionists are particularly keen on stopping Republicans marching in public shared space.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    The Northern Ireland segment of the BBC’s Sunday Politics show begins at 37m 35s and the Eamon Gilmore interview at 51m 40s.

  • cynic2

    Their is one!

    OK what is it>

  • cynic2

    “Unionists are particularly keen on stopping Republicans marching in public shared space.”

    And thats wrong too

  • Mc Slaggart

    “OK what is it>”

    Ask someone from Belfast

    Castlederg

  • cynic2

    So your argument is based on a total lack of knowledge or the topography of the area / two communities then?

  • Mc Slaggart

    cynic2

    I do not claim to be an expert in Belfast.

    I do know the Irish goverment said their was an alternative route and that they was willing to pay to have it imporved.

    Now take a look at the map and tell me how the hell is their not an alternative route????

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ardoyne+belfast+map&id=C69496F5C8056C1C7190B7B2467645AAF76823C9&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=4A4BE9AFCC4A8A5236725EEF6BF5607F1145AE6B&selectedIndex=2

  • Gopher

    Eamon Glimore is an Irish Labour TD a party that is losing ground to SF, the smart move would be for unionists to help a floundering party look stateman like at the expense of SF.

  • cynic2

    Your map is next to useless in this regard as the parade normally goes down the road on the left hand side of it. To the left of the parade going down is an almost 100% unionist area until it reaches the old Everton School complex which anyway shields the parade from sight of Ardoyne

    On the right hand side are house that used to be mainly unionist but have increasingly been occupied by Catholics. As soon as the parade reaches the bottom of the Everton complex on the left are Ardoyne Shops (Seen as Catholic Territory) backed by 100% hard core republican houses> Just after this (a matter on 200 m further on on the right is 100% Loyalist housing. The roundabout in the middle is the interface.

    There is no alternative route because behind the houses on the right had side of the road is open boggy land. There is a theoretical route through this. It involves walking along a narrow path about 3 m wide through a sports centre, along a path through copses of trees and then through a school , It is a fairly desolate area away from everyone and everything and through private property bushes and trees.

    The Irish have never offered to fun the upgrade of this and who would ever support it anyway – these are supposed too to be shared facilities / areas just like the road!!!

  • Mc Slaggart

    cynic2

    what is the name of the sports centre?

  • Coll Ciotach

    We all know that Gilmore is playing to his own constituency here, but anyway. This is a very difficult proposition for all but nationalists. Since Garrett the Good wished to separate the north from the south after the Dublin Monaghan bombings, (say what you like about the morality but it achieved its aim as did the Bloody Sunday murders), the southern government has always wanted to sup with a long spoon. The GFA did that perfectly. The British also wanted an Ulsterisation policy, and always wanted to devolve power to the pravince, from the days of devolving murder to the loyalist death gangs to reinstalling Stormont they too were successful, not only that but they got the south to accept the unionist veto. And therein lies the problem. Unionists can veto progress and there is no way the governments can avoid this except by imposing a solution on them, thereby compromising both govts policy of leave them alone. It is a pity of course that nationalists comply with this shameful set up however the more confrontations with obdurate unionism the better as it keeps the failure of the two govts Ulterisation policies apparent to all. At at the end of the day there is only one winner, nationalism. It keeps the issue on the cabinets agenda and also ensures that the “settlement” does not settle.

  • Gingray

    @McSlaggart – Clarenden playing fields, not a bad pitch, bit spongy, but there is plenty of room for 50 odd band members to march down, into the park, and avoid Ardoyne shops.

    @cynic2 – Of course you have no problems with loyalists responsible for the murder of Raymond Mooney in Holy Cross church, and many others, to march past his murder site because instead of wearing a balaclava they have a sash on.

    You asked before if one community has the right to exclude another from marching in shared space, using people of another colour or sexual orientation as an example. But you need to look at the purpose of the marches – they commemorate a victory over Catholicism, including the implementation of the penal laws. The organisation stems from a sectarian murder gang – the Peep O’ Day boys. The organisation bans its members from attending Catholic services or marrying people of that faith.

    So yes, excluding a group which openly supported murder and a supremacist attitude towards Catholics from marching and celebrating in an area where some of their members killed a few people is ok in my book

    Given the numbers of bandsmen involved there are plenty of options for them to march through the park to ballygomartin rather than antagonise their neighbours, as well as over 2000 other marches that may be more welcoming

  • Barnshee

    ” Of course you have no problems with loyalists responsible for the murder of Raymond Mooney in Holy Cross church, and many others, to march past his murder site because instead of wearing a balaclava they have a sash on.”

    Presumably you have identified the “loyalists responsible for the murder of Raymond Mooney” to the PSNI— should be easy as “instead of wearing a balaclava they have a sash on.”

    “they commemorate a victory over Catholicism, including the implementation of the penal laws. The organisation stems from a sectarian murder gang – the Peep O’ Day boys. The organisation bans its members from attending Catholic services or marrying people of that faith.”

    A bit like the catholic church then–old “ne temere” and all that still alive and well

    PS The event celebrates the survival of Protestantism in hostile catholic republican Ireland

  • Gingray

    Barnshee
    Of course I do not have the names of those responsible – like you when you spoke about all Derry people being on benefits, or Martin McGuiness when you linked him to IRA atrocities. Check out Martin Holland and his past, he “leads” one of the loyalist bands.

    And yes, the Orange Order banning their members from going to the funeral, baptism, wedding or general service of catholics on pain of expulsion is very similar to the “ne temere”. Backward and bigoted. Lets hope the catholic church dont march through areas they are not wanted …

    PS The event celebrates the victory (there is little said about survival) of the protestant over the catholic, and to this day is supremacist and tolerant of the sectarian murder that has went hand in hand with the orange order right from it days as the peep o day boys.

  • Sp12

    “PS The event celebrates the survival of Protestantism in hostile catholic republican Ireland”

    haha
    You’re clearly mental :)

  • Mc Slaggart

    cynic2

    The Romans were great ones for the marching and their roads could be as small as 2.4. As one of their main functions was to allow marching troops to march quickly I do not see why 3m would be unsuitable?

  • Barnshee

    “PS The event celebrates the survival of Protestantism in hostile catholic republican Ireland”

    haha
    You’re clearly mental :)

    Indeed the almost total absence of the prod from that– nirvana the ROI has not happened?

    The 17000 prods gone from Abercorn,Crawford Square Northland etc in the City side in Derry have been abducted by aliens?

    Some more examples ?

    Burning of Protestant orphanages

    http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/46546/civil-war-british-gunboat-sent-to-clifden

    “There are stories of priests physically attacking Anglican ministers, stoning them and their families, of forcibly taking children out of Protestant schools, and preaching against those who sought their help in spiteful terms. ”

    http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1053

    “the IRA deliberately and systematically targeted specific organisations whose membership was exclusively Protestant (including the Cork Freemasons, the YMCA and the Boys’ Brigade)

    Just a few examples from the litany of murder, discrimination and boycott of the Prod which removed them from the ROI

  • Gingray

    @Barnshee

    You are clearly indeed clearly mental – your best defence of the orange order is not to defend them, but to blame the other side. Tis a little pathetic and smacks of an inability to form a clear argument.

    Your beloved, sectarian, murdering and supremacists Orange Order stemmed from an organisation which committed many vile acts against the catholic population. Changing the name didn’t stop the crimes – more murder, gun running, civil disobedience, right up to today with more than 500

    Your links above refer to vile acts committed against the Protestant population, and I agree they are horrible. So I have a solution – no organisation which has supported violence against anyone should be allowed to march in Northern Ireland.

    And a history lesson for you:
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3410213113_a106a44149_o.jpg (murderers)
    https://www.facebook.com/LarneLOL1 (They have an annual celebration about the gun running from Germany in 1914, celebrating criminals who undermined the british state and rule of law)
    http://www.academia.edu/219843/Between_a_Rock_and_Hard_Gospel_-_the_Orange_Order_and_the_Church_of_Ireland (a little history on the numbers of OO men in terrorist organisations)
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/victims/docs/newspapers/belfast_telegraph/breen_bt_160707.pdf (Orangemen celebrating the murder of catholics – glorifying terrorism)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order#Relationship_with_loyalist_paramilitaries (a summary)

    Of course it really does seem you have no problems sectarian murderers and supremacists marching where they like – provided of course they only target catholics, obviously

  • IrelandNorth

    There’s only so often a Secretary of State (SOS) of a region, (or the Minister for Foreign Affairs (MFA) of a province), can pick-up a rattler trown out of the pram by terrible two’s territorialists in a supposedly devolved region or province. Surely N Ireland’s devolved status legitimised a stand-offishness by both governments ab initio. Observing the talks process from a hundred miles up the road, one got the distinct impression that the British Government had finally read their Dr Spock, (1950s US child psychologist). Never react to the emotional blackmail of your infant child’s biological imperatives. Respond in your own good time to show it whose the boss. While Mrs Villier’s is no nanny, (and the Tainste no kindergartner), Drs Haass/O Sullivan’s forte was that they were relative outsiders, and therefore relatively unbiased and objective. They were also from the common diplomatic denominator of the British and/or Irish Isles. If the SOS was to moderate, she shoud do so togther with the Taniste. Or get an EU intermediary. But then, maybe the whole point of the Haass exercise was merely to flag up just how utterly unreasonable generic Ulster unionism can b when faced with the most resaonable of compromises.