#AE17 Live Blog: The Count

  • the moviegoer

    Check my posts, Superfluous. You’ll find I’ve put this all on the record.

  • the moviegoer

    No. Nationalists play nice when they know they can’t win. When they know they can win, it’s UI all the way. It’s amazing how few unionists get this. Complacency. It’s why Rome fell, you know.

  • jporter

    Softer potential UI voters will lose interest if NI works for them. Nothing like a comfy status quo. Admittedly Brexit throws this up in the air somewhat.

  • Enda

    It certainly was a very odd statement indeed Seaan. There are some very paranoid comments on here tonight.

  • Superfluous

    Fair enough! Booo Mick.

  • Enda

    For God’s sake don’t be mentioning Rome around here the night. You might end up giving a couple of lads heart attacks.

  • Enda

    Now now, be Christian.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    A few years down the line with most ex-Unionists down in the Dáil as members of, say, Fine Gael and the north finally developing an economy within an all Ireland context (and in Europe!), such comments will look as quaint as the bizarrely hyperbolic rhetoric of 1912 does.

  • Msiegnaro

    It’s difficult with the likes of you and your comrades floating around riling Unionists and gloating and making threats.

  • Enda

    Who threatened you? I certainly haven’t.

    Boy but you’ve been quare craic the night. Thanks for the chuckles good sir.

  • Katyusha

    Actually I’d be acutely aware of it, as my job does involve manufacturing goods and selling them to the world. One of the reasons the German manufacturing industry is so strong is because the euro is much weaker than a German currency would be. Its just ironic watching the Brexit crowd talk about how “the euro is going to break up”, time after time after time; both before and after Brexit, we’ve had plenty of prophets foretelling the downfall of the euro. And in that time it has appreciated considerably. Rumours of the EZ’s demise would appear greatly exaggerated. Somehow the “respect” argument doesn’t seem to work both ways when it comes to the European institutions, which appear to be fair game when it comes to mockery.

    And need we repeat that Britain is a net importer. It’s no longer the workshop of the world and so can’t take advantage of a weaker currency. The reason Sterling was kept high was because it suited the British economy to have a strong currency. It suited the German economy to have a weaker one.

    Of course I’d be fine with earning in Marks and spending in Sterling also, so plan B isn’t a disaster either, even if it’s not great for business 😉

  • Msiegnaro

    All this talk of UI and how we’ll know our places.

  • Enda

    No one has said anything of the sort. In fact most supporters of a UI on here have said they’d welcome Unionism as an opposition.

    I think I’m done engaging with you. You’re being very childish.

  • Msiegnaro

    Nonsense you’re going to ride roughshod over us and abuse us at every turn.

  • Msiegnaro

    We aren’t even welcome in NI with our views.

  • Msiegnaro

    Upper Bann?

  • Andy Gunn

    Man Ive been on this thread all night. the satire you’ve been pushing is really beyond anything Ive seen. you need to be on stage, you’d outdo Andy Kaufman with this XD

  • Enda

    Of course you’re welcome, it’s just that some of your views are batshyte crazy and open to criticism.

  • Msiegnaro

    They’re our views and they’re not being respected. How dare you tell us what to think.

  • Enda

    Haha, even in your darkest hour you manage a wee pun, good on ya. What are your plans for the centenary in 4 years time… oh, wait…

  • Enda

    Think what you want, but I reserve the right to think they’re batshyte crazy, and if they impede on other people’s lives, then they should be called into question.

  • Andy Gunn

    Nah, im ready to buy a ticket to your stageshow! 😀

  • Msiegnaro

    Your stageshow now, we’re just the onlookers.

  • Mark Petticrew

    Transfers from the SDLP’s Ritchie McPhillips got Rosemary Barton of the UUP elected in Fermanagh-South Tyrone.

  • Msiegnaro

    Well the final victory is yours, we lost.

  • Msiegnaro

    Cost Morrow.

  • Andy Gunn

    awk have a wee sleep, get a wee fry in the morning and you’ll be ready to not surrender again tomorrow! Goodnight Msiegnaro, sweet dreams :3

  • Ciarán Doherty

    You sure you’re not just a troll trying to rile up some angry retorts to screenshot out of context for your ultra unionist blog? If so I’m afraid you won’t have much luck. The reality is nobody here has any ill will towards the livelihood of the protestant community in NI, they have a different vision for the future of Ireland but it’s not one that excludes you, and disagreeing with your views doesn’t mean we want you silenced.

  • Gavin86

    It’s remarkable that it was Unionism that seemed to take the hit from 6 to 5 seat constituencies, with all other parties broadly holding what they had before this election. I think it is especially impressive for the Alliance party and the Greens to hold there numbers, fair play to them.

  • So that is 28 DUP, 27 Sinn Fein and 35 who aren’t in the big bully parties. In a council election, the 35 could form an electoral grouping to take over the executive. But d’Hondt runs against party numbers.

  • Jollyraj

    I think this election will prove to be the wake up call NI needed for all of us – unionist, moderate nationalist, centre parties and other – who don’t wish to be ruled by the thugs, former thugs and pseudo-thugs of Sinn Fein.

    Now we just have to see where SF go with their threat, in essence, to not go into government if they didn’t like the result.

  • the moviegoer

    Big interest in the moderate nationalist/centre vote all of a sudden. LOLZ. This is only going one way Jolly and u know it.

  • Jollyraj

    All of a sudden? Hahaha hardly. I’ve been saying for years now that a move towards the moderates of UUP/SDLP and away from the extremists of SF, and to a lesser extent DUP, is the only way forward.

  • Jag

    That was awesome, can’t wait for the next election on 1st May!

  • Korhomme

    I calculated where the parties were before the election on the basis of 90/108ths, to reflect the reduction of MLAs; thus, DUP had 38, and 90/108 of that is 31.67. I realise that the accuracy is spurious, and it doesn’t reflect any changes in transfers or personal votes. Nonetheless:

    DUP 38 > 31.67, got 28
    SF 29 > 24.17, got 27
    UUP 16 > 13.3, got 10
    SDLP 12 > 10, got 12
    Alliance 8 > 6.67, got 8
    Green 2 > 1.67, got 2
    PbP 2 > 1.67, got 1
    TUV 1 > .67, got 1
    Ind 1 > .67, got 1

    Petition of Concern 30 > 25, remains at 30

  • Deeman

    I don’t see a bunch of 20 odd year pregnant girls as a threat or as a thug? What are you? A 6 stone 8 year old?

  • Korhomme

    Thanks for that. I didn’t know all these details, but I’m always impressed by what our ancestors did, and how little of it seems to be known today — indeed, the version of history that’s presented so often completely ignores those things which don’t fit the ‘proper’ narrative. As you say, the unity of so many in the past ought to be a spur to us today.

    (I read somewhere that St Mary’s cost about £2700, of which £1700 was contributed by Presbyterians; I don’t know if the figures are accurate.)

  • Mack

    Orangeism
    That’s your real name.
    Tell a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth.
    That schtick doesn’t quite work anymore.
    Your school ground politic is pathetic

  • Ciarán Doherty

    Forward to where exactly? An infinite prolongation of the status quo? And how does that fare after Brexit?

  • Deeman

    Strange question. Do you mean if you a catholic or Protestant do you have to believe everything that the relevant church/institution says?

  • Deeman

    SF are progressive in line with British values and laws on many topics.

    How is that extreme? Historically extreme yes, but pursuing a new Ireland in the European Union is a perfectly acceptable political ambition.

  • Deeman

    Looks like it Kevin. Very hard to identify swing votes due to increased turnout.

  • Msiegnaro

    Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

  • Msiegnaro

    That’s a pretty pathetic response.

  • Zorin001

    The SDLP had a good final run. And a great result for Alliance and Greens.

    For a lot of commentators below the line who like to say the Liberal Left are finished and discredited we didn’t do half bad 🙂

  • Jag

    “thug”?

    Wasn’t that what Sammy Wilson called Jim Allister?

  • Jag

    Do y’know, it wouldn’t surprise me if the shinners were vandalising their own cars just to win sympathy. No cars belonging to themmuns were damaged in this election. QED, I think you’ll find!

  • woodkerne

    that’s an uncustomarily partisan view for one who purports to be ‘on the fence’. True instincts showing?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Because of the preponderance of Presbyterians in the United Irishmen, and the liberalism of that New light Presbyterian thinking which inspired the pluralistic intellectial revolution of the Belfast middle classes in the late eighteenth century (“the Athens of the North”) there has been a “grand narrative” tendency to put every good thing done then down to Presbyterians alone. While not wishing to in any way downplay their utterly seminal role in these enlightenment decades, the £1700 refers to the volunteers as I recall (I’m not checking this out from my notes and may be wrong), and they were as I’ve said rather more cross community. Historic comparisons for money value is always a most relative thing, but just as interest value, £1700.00 considered as relative to the general earnings of the period, would represent just under two and a half million pounds in current money.

  • woodkerne

    nice bit of gloating …

  • woodkerne

    You do know the meaning of the word pathetic? From pathos, ‘a quality or power, especially in literature, arousing feeling of pity, sorrow or sympathy.’ Perhaps you were meaning to pay a compliment …

  • Enda

    It’s actually a very reasonable response. It sounds like the only thing that would make you happy would be a public announcement that concentration camps are being set up at Nutts Corner for the Unionist population.

    It’s all over exaggerated doom and gloom for you.

  • RWP

    Please can someone tell me how many executive portfolios will be allocated to each party under D’hondt? There should be 8 portfolios to assign (excluding Justice and OFDFM). I think this should be:
    DUP – 3
    SF – 3
    UUP – 1
    SDLP – 1
    Is this correct and how does this alter if Justice is included as one of 9 portfolios to be assigned…assume the extra choice goes to the DUP?

  • Korhomme

    I expect you are correct; I suspect I read too much of ‘history as written by the victors’. I don’t remember Belfast being the Athens of the North, I thought that was Edinburgh.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Of course the term was applied to Edinburgh during the mid eighteenth century, but the term was then appropriated to describe the re-vitalised pluralistic Volunteer Belfast during the 1780s, with some justice. Some of the pre-Great war Protestant cultural nationalists make much play in their writings of its use.

  • Korhomme

    Thanks again for filling in so many of my historical lacunae!

    A very long time ago, I read Edmund Curtis’s ‘A History of Ireland’ and immediately afterwards read Alice Curtayne’s ‘The Irish Story’. My distinct and abiding memory is that, unless you knew, they might have been about two different places.

  • Granni Trixie

    Does free speech mean you can place with impunity such a slur on a successful candidate without any evidence whatsoever?
    But I suppose as long as people reading it see it for what it is no harm done. Why do you feel you have to do this instead of being a good sport? Man up when yer man lost out.

  • Granni Trixie

    When you talk bout “your kind” does it actually occur to you that people of Northern Ireland are “your kind” whether you like it or not?

  • Granni Trixie

    I think magnificent given the day that’s in it for him nails it.

  • chrisjones2

    Hes absoluteley right. Allister challenges the DUP intellectually. When you do that, by definition and no matter how careful you are, it always feels like an adult beating up on an 8 year old girl

  • Granni Trixie

    Off the top of my head I can mention several at MLA level who come across as articulate and insightful in their analysis:Nicola Mallon,Claire Hanna,Michele Mcilveen, Kellie Armstrong and ofcourse Naomi. However you cannot divorce this impression from women being given media opportunities by their Parties. For example, looks like UUP and DUP rarely “let” their female MLAs represent them on major talk shows. But then they have such a small pool from which to chose.

    Ps Would have added Maeve McLoughlin from Derry to that list except she seems to have disappeared!

  • SeaanUiNeill

    They were, they were, Korhomme! Luckly that is very far from the whole picture. During the 1930s there was a major shift in Irish historiography in reaction to the politically motivated “two versions” history towards an objective evaluation of facts. Theodore Moody and Robert Dudley Edwards along with F. S. L. Lyons founded the journal “Irish Historical Studies” which set a new standard of research which endures to teh present day across modern Irish historiography. While their pupils loosly forming Revisionist school is usually thought of as continuing this tradition, just after Lyons became Provost of Trinity he gave a lecture at UCD castigating them for falling below the high standards of necessary objectivity to espouse a political interpretation which was strongly weighed against Nationalism. The new generation of Irish historians both north and south have again tried to maintain a high standard of dispassionate analysis, and I find it interesting to encounter posters on Slugger castigating historians such as the inimitable Diarmaid Ferriter simply because he does not argue for any one of their inherited political positions!

  • Damien C

    From today’s Belfast Telegraph:

    Her once soft edges appeared even more hardened as she hit out at the “intimidating” atmosphere at the Omagh count centre.

    “We have tricolours thrust about the place, crocodiles walking about. It doesn’t surprise me – this is the sort of attitude that prevails in the west of the province to the minority unionist community in Northern Ireland.

    “It’s sad to see that people talk about respect but they don’t practice it.”

  • John Collins

    She also turned many decent Unionist against her party and they transferred in big numbers to the SDLP to the .chargin of both SF and the DUP.
    She also succeeded in bringing moderate Nationalists out in droves with her nasty comments about the Irish Language and generally disparaging attitude to the RC population.
    As regards voting SF- I would not touch them with a forty poll.
    Speaking in a broader fashion I feel tied to no part
    I presume however, as you mentioned it, that you are an unquestioning DUP supporter.

  • North Down dup

    The attitude to the RC people, like what, and you should say Catholic people, sinn fein is for the Catholic people, there is many a good roman Catholic person out there , and sf don’t stand up for true RC beliefs

  • North Down dup

    My post wasn’t wasn’t a slur

  • Jake Mac Siacais

    As big affable (sic) Ken, aka Major Kenneth Wiggins Maginnis, Baron of Drumglass noted during David Trimble’s step into obscurity, Unionism seems incapable of absorbing the lesson that “every time Unionists are forced back to negotiations the salami is always sliced thinner.”.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Many unionists switched to Alliance, perhaps mainstream unionists were being too triumphalistic about a policy matter that affects the whole of Northern Ireland, and thought Alliance were a better voice for it.

  • Guilty of Wrongthink

    no it should not. Marriage is already open to all. Civil Partnerships for the same sex.

  • Korhomme

    I have subsequently read rather more modern takes on history, though the messages imprinted on me in my childhood are hard to erase and rewrite.

    History, in grammar school, was taught to the exam syllabus; a long series of dates with little or no explanation of what was going on. And ‘history’ began quite suddenly in 1485 and came to a full stop in 1815. And this ‘history’ was English history as seen from an English perspective. The ‘Glorious Revolution’ invovled this Dutchman who had no apparent connection with England; his relationship to James II wasn’t explained, and of course the Nine Years’ War was never mentioned.

    In relation to that, I remember Curtis writing that the Battle of the Boyne was on 30 June; even then I reralised that most people had it on 1 July (Old Style, Julian calendar) and I knew about the change to the New Style Gregorian calendar in 1752, and the mantra of ‘give us back our lost 11 days’ — something that is pure invention. So it seemed obvious that 1 July (OS) had 11 days added to become 12 July (NS), and thus the basis of the ‘Twelfth’. Wrong; while the calendars were 11 days out in 1752, there was only 10 days difference in 1690, so the NS style of the Boyne would be 11 July. And only later did I discover that the Twelfth was originally a celebration of the Battle of Aughrim on 12 July 1691 (OS), or 22 July NS. I wonder how many people who celebrate the Twelfth actually know what they are celebrating?

    So I resent the almost fictional version of history that we were taught and which seemed then to be taken for granted; and I’m now very aware that being self-taught so often means that there are ‘unknown unknowns’ in my understanding.

  • North Down dup

    We want rid of SF

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I’d the good luck to be brought up in a family with long and detailed memories, who were highly critical of the “grand narrative” of History from whatever interest group this was framed. The date issue you discuss above is often a fun experience for those new to research, as even professionals unwarily confuse the first three months of the years sometimes. This is especially true of the war of 1688/9 where the French in Ireland, one of our most reliable source of information, used either date system on documents depending who they were writing to (but even this may not be relied upon) and there are endless possibilities for a mix up of anyone without a detailed day by day knowledge of events! There are some real crackers in the organised attributions of date at PRONI.

    The one thing we quickly learn is that history is full of vacuums and any research student can readily find untapped material quite easily. It is a process of endless re-evaluation, as complex as any other discipline with the same need to keep up with current research, but with the added problem that this is actually our collective memory as a community. You can see just how the issue of why you rightly describe as “fictional” history is just as dangerous as any fictionalised personal memory and potentially just as harmful.

  • woodkerne

    A plague on both your houses, is that your position? My view is that while there is a zero-sum, in terms of obstacles to progress the forces of orange and green aren’t equivalent. Am suspicious too of the relativist technique of asserting a false equivalence in historically asymmetrical circumstances. Sitting on the fence it occurs to me, existentially, is rather like occupying a centre ground that isn’t actually there.

  • woodkerne

    ‘pseudo-thugs’, what like a pretend thug, so not a thug?

  • Esmee Phillips

    Not Claire Sugden?

  • Granni Trixie

    As I said I picked examples off the top of my head which on reflection I would stick by. Sugden never occurred to me.

  • woodkerne

    If by that you mean neutrality isn’t available as an option, I agree.

  • David Crookes

    No, Kevin. You recall Biron’s words from ‘Love’s Labour Lost’ iii. 1 — no mortal so magnificent. Alex didn’t flee from the cameras or the microphones.

  • Jollyraj

    Yes. One who, for instance, lives vicariously through thugs.

  • woodkerne

    That sounds like it might be a virtual thug or an avatar. Either way, not real, make-believe.

  • John Collins

    And you reckon a political party in the modern era should stand up only for the beliefs on one religion.

  • North Down dup

    RC people who hold there beliefs dear, same sex marriage, abortion only have the dup to vote for and many do

  • Gavin86

    I’ve just noticed on Emma Pengelly’s twitter account that the banner head has been changed from a picture of herself and Arlene, I suppose no longer an MLA but is the distancing from Arlene now beginning? Has anyone else noticed this elsewhere?

  • Korhomme

    Your mention of the French and the two dating systems reminds me of that time-travelling monarch, William III, who arrived in England several days before leaving Holland.

    But enough; we’ve gone a long way from the election. I enjoyed our discussion a lot, and should further it another time.

  • chrisjones2

    NIce to see Gavin Robinson is fulsome in his support of Arlene

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-northern-ireland-2017-39168287

    although he has never been at the forefront of Unionist thinking so wether or not this is the general view needs to be seen.

    My personal feeling is that she should go – not for RHI but because her electoral failure is so profound and so personal. The problem is that there is no clear replacment unless we assume Stormont folds when ‘the mighty Dodds’ might be a shoo in