Injured Prison Officer Dies After Heart Attack

Adrian Ismay, who had previously been released from hospital after sustaining serious injuries from a dissident Republican bomb attack, suffered a fatal heart attack earlier today.

The First Minister lead condemnation, tweeting from the USA on an investment mission, “I’m devastated. Can’t believe the news. I was texting Adrian before we left for the US. He was doing well. My thoughts are with his family.”

The PSNI have yet to confirm they are treating the death as murder.

Coincidentally today in the Irish Republic the government has organised the first of a supposedly annual ‘Proclamation Day’, where the call to arms of the Irish republican rebels is being read out to every school in the country.

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  • ted hagan

    Loyalists, Republicans, two sides of the same coin. Both have used violence, when convenient, and both have had tacit or open support from their own communities at varying levels. It has never been all or nothing. After all, the loyalist paramiltaries were only able to destroy the Sunningdale, because, tragically, they had the support of the majority of unionists.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Nice of you to admit that the ‘loyalists’ weren’t angels.

    Now, how about addressing my previous points?

    The PIRA took on the military might of the British state, the ‘loyalists’ decided to involve themselves – supposedly on the side of the state – despite the overwhelming advantage that the state already possessed.

    The involvement of the ‘loyalists’ consisted of murdering civilians to the order of 87.2% of all their kills.

    Not only that, but a number of the murders that they were responsible for were Protestants mistaken for Catholics and also members of the security forces, who would not have been classified as civilians.

    The British Army were responsible for killing 52% of civilians in the total of people they killed.

    The PIRA total kills consisted of 36% civilian murders.

    It would appear based on that that there are grounds for labeling a number of protagonists ‘ murdering thugs’ but not necessarily those that you may wish to.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Agreed, no side is innocent, there are faults on both sides, so why are you apparently intent on tarring all nationalists with the same brush, and laying the murder of an innocent man at the door of all republicans?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Whilst you of course have an open mind and are fully prepared to consider all sides of the disagreement. : )

  • ted hagan

    I am not. I am simply saying they are renegade Republicans condemned by most Republicans for the /killing, but who nevertheless share the same motives as those who took part in the Rising. I see little difference. You talk of democrat agreements like the Good Friday Agreement but the civil war and the Troubles followed the ‘democratic agreement’ that created partition.

  • Sir Rantsalot

    Having lived in Dublin, I know that your southern identity is mainly anti British grievance hostility. It would be interesting to watch the angry reaction if you were presented with the reality of the terrorist murders that your country was born from.

  • Bill Slim

    Thank you for confirming your support for republican murder gangs.

  • Bill Slim

    Because of course that is the big issue here. Not that the man was murdered, but that I pointed out that he came from the unionist community. By doing so I was apparently abusing him.

    Take a look at yourself.

  • Bill Slim

    If you knew anything about the rising then you would know that those children would not have died if it hadn’t taken place. It was an act of lunacy which led to decades of terrorism and thousands of deaths, and all for something that would have happened anyway.

  • Bill Slim

    Colt Hurst Bowen was certified as being insane. In fairess I think Markievitz was as well.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Pearse or Carson:

    Would anyone have been out at Easter 1916, had not, as Eoin McNeill so significantly put it, “The North Began……”

    “Motes and beams,” as the Good Book says…….

    Although I should make it clear that I’m utterly opposed to violence from any quarter, and feel that this abstract rancour against the other side by both political camps throughout this thread is the painful consequence of those generalised hatreds that Carson and his allies restoration of the gun into the political debate in the Ireland of his day ensured has poisoned debate for over a century. My own concerns are with the personal tragedy for Mr Ismay’s family, something this name calling appears to have forgotten.

  • Bill Slim

    Of course they are, but well done for squeezing in the whataboutery anyway.

  • Bill Slim

    No eireanne. A man was murdered.

  • Bill Slim

    The threat of conscription coupled with the executions of the leaders led to a change in public opinion. That does not alter the fact that they were regarded as idiots when they began their lunatic rebellion.

  • Bill Slim

    They didn’t force the British Empire to do anything. The British government had already promised them home rule, so the big achievement of the Easter rebels and their subsequent murder campaign was the guaranteed partition of Ireland.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Then we are in agreement, they are renegades who are not in tune with the majority of republican/nationalists and therefore the OP should not have gone out of his way to connect the two with reference to the 1916 commemorations.

    The difference that you apparently fail to see is obvious, the majority wish for a peaceful solution and have accepted the GFA the dissidents are completely at odds with that view.

    If you struggle to comprehend that and are determined to view all republicans in the same way then there is little that I or anyone else can do for you.

  • Bill Slim

    The majority in 1916 wished for a peaceful solution, but had the rising forced upon them. Today Irish nationaists revere them as heroes. The current crop of idiots think that one day people like you will be praising them and quoting percentages to prove what great fellows they were. Why shouldn’t they believe that when the precedents have been well and truly set?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Your level of comprehension is pitiful, since when did quoting facts show support for murder?

    As it happens I agree with my father, a man who served his country and saw action on a number of occasions in WW2.

    He was an English Protestant and his view was that if it was considered acceptable for him to fight for the freedom of his country he could see no reason why an Irishman shouldn’t fight for the freedom of his country.

    Seems reasonable to me.

  • Bill Slim

    Thank you for the further confirmation.

  • Anglo-Irish

    You assume too much and know little.

    ‘ The majority in 1916 wished for a peaceful solution ‘

    Well when they didn’t get it, mainly as a result of British intransigence they pretty quickly came to the view that supporting the IRA was the right thing to do.

    My grandfather hid a cousin of his who was ‘on the run’ following his part in an ambush on a Tan motor column in West Clare.

    My mother as a 12 year old schoolgirl saw the Tans in action.

    Despite which, being an intelligent woman she didn’t regard all of the British as terrorists my father was English and an ex soldier.

    You see unlike you,some people are bright enough not to assume that all people think alike even if from the same background.

    Oh and as the Irish Republic not only took its place as a free nation among the nations of the world it also prospered far more than if it had remained in the UK the Rising turned out to be justified, didn’t it?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Thank you for confirming your lack of comprehension.

  • the keep

    Oh stop being so bloody self indulgent Am Ghobsmacht your constant attempt to place yourself as some type of bleeding heart liberal unionist gets a little grating after a while.
    As for the murder of the Prison officer every right thinking person would and should condemn it without question.

  • Bill Slim

    The Irish people were getting home rule once WW1 was finished and they were perfectly happy with that. So much so that tens of thousands of them had volunteered to fight for Britain in WW1. Only a tiny minority supported the easter rising just as only a tiny minority today support the dissidents.

    You appear to be incapable of understanding the connection. The dissidents understand it perfectly and that is why they are murdering people.

    The Irish Free State and consequent republic endured decades of abject poverty by the way. Their biggest export was their youth.

  • Bill Slim

    Try being honest with yourself. Your posts reak of support for the Provos even if you try to couch them in “sneaking regard”. You quote murder statistics as if they make the Provos better than others. Utterly disgusting.

  • Anglo-Irish

    So the British government had guaranteed Home Rule?

    This guarantee was passed by Parliament and enshrined in legislation?

    The British had called for a cease fire and provided proof of their acceptance of Home Rule to the IRA and yet they had decided that they were having so much fun that they’d fight on?

    If the British had no problem with Home Rule then why didn’t they simply accept the overwhelming victory of Sinn Fein in the 1918 Irish general election and allow them to govern Ireland from Dublin, in much the same way that Scotland is governed today?

    As for laying the blame for the partition of Ireland on the Easter Rebels you really are stretching things beyond all credibility.

    That would have just gone away would it?

  • babyface finlayson

    There is an impressive age range somewhere in your family!

  • Bill Slim

    Yes the British had guaranteed Home Rule. It may have escaped your attention but the easter rebels and the subsequent IRA were not interested in that. The British didn’t give immediate independence to Ireland because the majority of people in 1918 did not vote for it, and because there were a million people in the north who were very much against it. Therefore they granted independence to those in the south who wanted it and gave home rule to Northern Ireland.

    The IRA in 1921, in the words of Michael Collins, were about two weeks away from defeat. If the British had wanted to hold onto Ireland then they were more than capable of doing so. The suggestion that the IRA kicked them out is laughable.

  • Anglo-Irish

    I do not support the murder of anyone, I suspect that the difference between you and I is that that means everyone in my case and includes the Irish killed by the British or the ‘loyalists’.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but whilst we’re mind reading each other, I suspect that you have a rather more laid back attitude to murders carried out by the British or the ‘loyalists’.

    Your interpretation of the FACTS that I posted is revealing, you think that because the PIRA killed a lower percentage of civilians among the total of those they killed it somehow makes them less culpable?

    Not in my view it doesn’t every murder of an uninvolved innocent civilian was murder.

    But you don’t like the facts do you?

    I didn’t post them to make any other point than to show people like you that your constant one sided bias needs to be reined in a little. The Troubles was a disgusting period in the history of the UK and there are no good guys.

    However, to listen to people like you going on about it you would think that only one side was responsible for everything.

    The facts tell a different story. and I keep pointing them out to provide a little balance to the debate.

    Incidentally two days ago you posted that out of respect for the deceased you wouldn’t be getting involved in any arguments on this thread.

    Why are you still here?.

  • Bill Slim

    The major fact that you have deliberately left out is that the vast majority of the people who were murdered here during the troubles were murdered by republicans. Why would you not mention that? If you don’t condone murder them why do you deliberately differentiate between the victims? If you don’t support the Provos then why do you spend so much time attempting (all be it badly) to defend their actions?

    I’m here because I feel that the hijacking of this thread by Sinner Bots needs to be addressed.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Thank you, you do understand how the relationship with cousins works don’t you?

    I had eight first cousins, they all had/have children, those children are also my first cousins ( once removed ) whilst my children are their second cousins.

    The 19 year old buried in France was my fathers first cousin making him mine also ( once removed ) unfortunately he didn’t live to have children so I missed out on English cousins.

    I left out the once removed bit in the post sorry if it caused confusion. : )

  • Anglo-Irish

    Any Irish person who believed that Britain was going to keep its word was naive to an enormous degree.

    England rule the UK and England did not acquire the sobriquet ‘Perfidious Albion’ through fair dealing, every agreement and treaty it signed that proved inconvenient at a later date was broken.

    Why do you think that De Valera rejected Churchill’s offer to hand over Northern Ireland in exchange for the use of Irish ports during WW2?

    And yes the ROI did endure hardship, I can remember it in the early 50’s.

    Why do you think it was like that?

    After all it had been a part of the largest Empire in the world for centuries, and Dublin was the second city of the Empire you would have thought that it would have been quite well off.

    Despite starting from such a poor position it is to the credit of the nation that it now has one of the best standards of living in the world and currently the fastest growing economy in the EU.

    And all achieved without any help/interference from Westminster.

    Just think what a 32 county country could have achieved!

  • Bill Slim

    To argue that a campaign of violence and murder was justified because the British might not have kept their word is ludicrous. Are you actually being serious?

    The abject poverty suffered by Ireland was largely due to the incompetence and lunacy of its leaders. De valera deserves particular mention for his idiotic decision to embark on an economic war with Britain. The end result of which was that his country depended on the money of Irish people working in Britain for its survival.

    I think the billions of pounds loaned to the ROI by Westminster might have had somethng to do with the recent Irish recovery by the way. But don’t let the facts get in the way of your fantasies.

  • Anglo-Irish

    And the major fact that you are deliberately leaving out is that the majority of civilian deaths were caused by the security forces and so called ‘loyalists’.

    Although ‘loyalists’ killed fewer people they killed more civilians than any other participant.

    When someone volunteers to join an army, whether it be official or unofficial they accept that if called upon to do so they are prepared to kill the enemy.

    Exactly the same applies to an armed police force where the circumstances are known regarding the political situation.

    Therefore whether they are members of the PIRA or the British army or RUC or ‘loyalists’ they are prepared to take another persons life if the circumstance arises.

    That being the case, whilst feeling sympathy for their loved ones I am somewhat less concerned about the actual protagonist whichever side they are on.

    If you are prepared to kill you shouldn’t get overly aggrieved if a like minded individual gets his shot off first.

    None of which applies to Adrian Ismay, not only was he a prison officer who had not signed up to harm anyone,he was also murdered ( whatever the outcome of the investigation I believe those responsible for the attack were also responsible for his death ) during an agreed peace.

    My sympathies are with those innocent civilians of whatever political leaning or religious affinity who through no fault of their own have their lives taken or ruined by the actions of others.

    Giving people daft nick names is childish by the way, and adds no weight to your argument.

  • babyface finlayson

    Yes the ‘once removed’ would have been clearer and prevented the need for me to do complicated sums on Paddy’s Day.
    Anyway sorry for being a sarky git!

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    You are wasting your time engaging our English commentator. He knows next to nothing of real Irish history beyond the green mist wherein he resides.

    To place the “Tans” in 1916, the timeframe your post referenced: “The majority in 1916 wished for a peaceful solution”; your opening line could hardly have been clearer, shows, and not for the first time, that particular ‘contributor’s’ inability to address the content of posts he mindlessly appears compelled to reply to.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Ach it was just a joke. Try not to read so deeply into things would ye.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Ireland was a poor country in exactly the same way that the north and south west of England Wales and Scotland were poor.

    I visited Ireland every year and remember the early 50s well, They were no poorer in rural Clare than we were in Sheffield.In fact they ate better.

    Immigration was caused because of the lack of industry in the country as it was in Scotland Wales and Northern England where many people also moved to the south east.

    Have you any comment as to why Ireland has managed to progress from where they were to a situation which is far better than the position currently enjoyed by Scotland, Wales and the North and South West of England?

    As for the money loaned to Ireland by Britain a few points, firstly Britain had no choice, British banks were up to their eyeballs in the Irish financial balls up and would have gone under if no action was taken. In other words British banks had contributed to the problem.

    Secondly, Britain made money from the deal because at that time Britain could borrow at a lesser interest rate than Ireland, it borrowed the money lent it and made a profit on the difference.

    Nothing wrong with that it’s the way of business.

    Strangely enough, such are the weird and wonderful ways of finance that at the end of 2011 following the ‘bailout’ Britain owed more money to Ireland than Ireland did to Britain.

    Currently things are progressing reasonably well although it’s never a good idea to get complacent things can change and the jurys out as to whether it would be an advantage or disadvantage to Ireland if Britain left the EU.

    Still if you’re in NI you have a get out of jail free card if Britain leaves and it all goes belly up, A UI and you’re back in again!

  • Anglo-Irish

    Please point out where exactly I said that the Tans were active in 1916?

    You appear to hold a conversation in your own head rather than read and comprehend what has been posted.

    You then reply to your imagined ramblings.

    And once again it needs to be pointed out to you that I am neither English nor Irish, the fact that you continue to fail to grasp such a simple straightforward concept is testament to your limited ability to understand basic facts.

    The clue is in the user name but I suppose you couldn’t be expected to pick up on that, too subtle.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Quite right, why can’t he be like the other one dimensional ” it’s all themuns fault” unionists?

    Coming on here trying to be rational and discussing things in a civilised manner.

    Down with that sort of thing!

  • Anglo-Irish

    Not at all, and a happy Paddy’s day to you and yours. We’re going out for a family meal tonight and I hope you have something pleasant planned also.

  • mac tire

    Your argument is flawed, in fact it is immature. I could say that if the British were not in Ireland the Rising would not have happened and thus Britain is responsible for every death here. It would be a silly argument.
    Let’s blame the Polish people for the casualties during the Warsaw Uprising and not the Nazis. etc, etc.

  • Anglo-Irish

    So this wouldn’t have been a problem?

    And if the IRA were so close to defeat how was it that the civil war took place shortly afterward where more Irishmen died than in the War of Independence?

    Don’t try to kid yourself, the British at that time didn’t give up anything freely.

    They knew exactly what the cost would be in international terms. it was the catalyst for the breakup of the Empire the British didn’t look quite so fearsome following that little debacle.

    Lord Birkenhead said to Michael Collins as he signed the treaty ” I may be signing my political death warrant” to which Collins replied ” I may be signing my actual death warrant “.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Whataboutery, Bill? Hardly, simply a pointing to the source of our woes. Are you really going to try and tell me that the UVF did not bring the gun back into what had become entirely constitutional Irish politics by 1914? Pearse was simply following a lead. If you are entirely against violence, as I am, it becomes important that no lassitude is given to those who claim to be against violence, but are selective in which violence it is that they condemn. Such cases indulge the violence of those they support, either through disingenuous anger at the violence of their opponents, or more insidiously, by sentimentalising events such as the formation of the UVF and the Larne gun-running while utterly condemning similar activity in those they consider to be their enemy. Such offensive silliness offers a spurious veneer of “legitimacy” to violence, as both camps can drearily play the “true” victim and claim their violence is justified in the face of the violence of the other camp.

    But as AG is saying below “This could have been a thread to unite most of the commentators on this website ” and I note that instead of this, the same dreary old “my violence is acceptable, yours is not” responses are being trotted out instead of what should be a blanket condemnation of all recourse to violence, right back to its fountain head in the “glorious” first UVF. Whataboutery? When have I ever sought to justify anyones violence on any of these threads by setting up the kind of up-down see-saw that underlies the crocodile tear “support” offered here by those claiming to sympathise with real people suffering in a genuine tragedy?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Condemning violence means what it is saying on the can “Condenming Violence”, (capitol C, capitol V) not simply picking a “team” whose violence you would disallow while indulging that of the “team” you personally side with. In my book its the crude “shroud waving” character of using a man’s tragic death to simply score against “themuns” that is “so bloody self indulgent”, something “every right thinking person would and should condemn it without question”….

    I think something of an appology is due here to one of the most decent. moderate posters on Slugger.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    “Why shouldn’t they believe that when the precedents have been well and truly set”…..Carson?

  • ted hagan

    You really don’t make sense. A majority, pre 1916, wanted a peaceful solution in Ireland, hence the compromise of Home Rule. The rebels didn’t accept that and took part in the Rising.
    So what’s the difference between them and today’s dissidents, who don’t accept the Belfast Agreement? Try and work it out.

  • John Collins

    In the last eighty years of GB occupation,or rule, the population of all Ireland dropped by a full 50%, the population of what is now the ROI fell by an even bigger percentage, as the population of Belfast went up in that period.
    In the last fifteen years of the Nineteenth Century 60,000 people left Ireland every year. so you could hardly say prosperity was rampant in this country under British Rule.
    By contrast since independence the population of the ROI has increased by 50%, which is almost exactly the same as that of GB

  • Anglo-Irish

    In 1916 had a referendum been held throughout the whole of Ireland where an agreement had been reached to pursue any future political aspirations by democratic means only?

    In 1998 was this type of threatened insurrection being offered?

    One hundred years have past, things are not the same, Try and work it out.

  • Anglo-Irish

    And yet it would presumably be perfectly acceptable for the British to be faced with the millions more murders that the British Empire was born from?

    And as someone who is half English and has lived and attended two schools in the ROI I can tell you that your claim that Irish ( not southern, remember Donegal ) identity is mainly about anti British hostility is complete garbage.

    Ever thought that maybe they just didn’t like you?

  • babyface finlayson

    “we’re cousins you know.”
    Once removed ?

  • Jollyraj

    Do you include yourself in the blanket term ‘British Empire’?

  • Jollyraj

    I see your point…. the one makes the other ok….genius!

  • Jollyraj

    That is the Republican MO, my friend. Plant a bomb under a family car, detonate it, and then angrily complain to the press that if it hadn’t been for the Brits, it wouldn’t have been necessary to do it. If you repeat it often enough people might vaguely accept that there must be some sort of logic there. Rewind and press play. Ad nauseum.

  • Jollyraj

    Would you also feel that about, say, a young person from the nationalist community caught in the crossfire on bloody Sunday?

  • Jollyraj

    I believe the company line is that we’re all disgusting. Seems to be taught in the faith schools….

  • Jollyraj

    “A middle-aged man, who had a stressful job, sadly died of a heart attack (condolences to family and friends). He had been the victim of a car bomb attack”

    I see your point that stress brings these things on, but………Kinda hard to argue that the car bomb attack wouldn’t have added to his general stress levels….

  • Jollyraj

    Once again, JC….the one makes the other ok. Is that really the only comment you’ve got, no matter what the topic?

  • Jollyraj

    “So according to your logic every member of the PUL community is as one with Gusty Spence, Billy Wright and these four”

    Extraordinarily obtuse comment.

  • Jollyraj

    Problem with Anglo Irish (beyond the fact he feels that his being English somehow trumps anything an Ulster Protestant could ever say) is that he fails to see that the dissidents of today are much the same, in some cases no doubt actually the same, people who were in the pre-Belfast Agreement IRA, with the same motives, tactics and bone-headed arguments.

    If the dissidents are wrong now, it logically follows that the Provos were wrong then.

  • Jollyraj

    Cue the inevitable, drawn-out and utterly pointless “Please point out where exactly I said…” charade….

  • Jollyraj

    “Have you any comment as to why Ireland has managed to progress from where they were to a situation which is far better than ……..”


  • Jollyraj

    But what about…..

  • Jollyraj

    “Living in the past, 1690 for instance, is one of the reasons why there is still a problem in Ireland in 2016.”

    Coming from a Republican that is quite breathtaking audacity.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Did you see Elvis serving at Larne Asda, Barnshee, and can you please identify which film set the Moon landing was actually shot on! On a more serious note, we’d all value the identity of those involved in the “An Phoblach” committee who are engineering this campaign, and perhaps a list of the contribiyers involved should be sent to Mick, Brian or David. You must be very close to people in SF if you have stumbled on this conspiracy. It is in the public interest for you to come forward and name names. A campaign of this sort would be a wicked and cynical abuse of what is one of the only serious forums of debate open to us in the north.

    Either that or simply consider answering others points with some well thought out intelligent answers that actually employ the broad spectrum of arguments that suggest the Union is an important thing for our entire community. Indulgent innuendo adds nothing positive to the actual case, no matter how much better it may make a person feel.

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    A charade I will decline to participate in. Nor will I indulge our self-flagellating Englishman’s fantastical take on his own antecedents.

    Yet one has got to smile at an admirer of Irish nationalist terrorism taking on the sobriquet ‘Anglo-Irish’. Another example of his woefully inadequate understanding of Irish history.

  • Anglo-Irish


    The poster that I was replying to was trying to tar all republicans with the same brush, by claiming that the people responsible for the prison officer attack were representative of republican aims.

    I was pointing out that whilst unionists may all have the same aims with regard to the union that does not mean that all members of the PUL community necessarily agree with ‘loyalist’ terrorists.

    Having to explain something as straightforward as that to you is not a good sign as far as reasoned debate is concerned.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Are you really as stupid as your posts indicate?

    I’m beginning to think that you are.

    According to your twisted ‘logic’ there is no difference whatsoever to the situation pre GFA to that which applies post GFA?

    There is every difference, a democratic agreement has been reached, all parties have signed up to it and therefore anyone ignoring it is taking action against ALL of those who accepted the GFA.

    Your sectarian desperation to blame all of ‘themmuns’ for everything is pitiful.

    And how many times does it need explaining to you that it isn’t possible for someone with an Irish parent to be English, or for that matter someone with an English parent to be Irish?

    The constant proof of your inability to think straight and accept facts is however a source of amusement, so don’t let me stop you.

  • Jollyraj

    “And how many times does it need explaining to you that it isn’t possible for someone with an Irish parent to be English, or for that matter someone with an English parent to be Irish?”

    Wrong, I’m afraid. Your ideas of ‘ethnic purity’ are as simplistic, misguided and unthinking as something one might read in Mein Kampf. If two parents from Pakistan, Jamaica, Germany or any combination of those have and raise a child in Canada that child will be Canadian. Simple as that. If you are born and raised in England, you are English. Your posts read at times – and this is not helped by your customary rudeness – like you are some sort of bizarre amalgam of Irish Republican & BNP underling.

  • John Collins

    I think the point is 1916 is commemorated in a loud and proud way, for a few weeks, once every fifty years, where as the victory in 1690 is commemorated in the same way for a longer period every summer.

  • John Collins

    He was released from some facility two years late and lived a full and active life at large in Canada, dying in 1965. Anyway if he was as insane as that it should been obvious to his superiors and he should never be put in the position he was in. Insane my backside. By contrast Mr Vane, who exposed his treachery, was hounded out of the army for his decent behaviour.
    BTW we would never have known, despite Mr Vane’s effort, if his wife was not so dogged and the daughter of a sitting MP. She was offered £10,000 by the GB authorities to shut up about it but she refused it.

  • Anglo-Irish

    The reason that I become rude is that dealing with people who are unable to understand and apply basic logic to fairly straightforward matters is frustrating, and my patience with people who have to have simple facts explained to them again and again is not limitless.

    No one is talking about ‘racial purity’ in fact the very opposite in my case. Were I claiming to be racially pure I would be claiming unbroken descent from one race wouldn’t I?

    Whereas I’m stating the fact that my bloodline is split 50/50 between two different nationalities, one belonging to the Germanic race and one to the Celtic race.

    Do you understand that?

    You appear to believe that you are some sort of expert on national identity the truth being that your simplistic viewpoint owes more to your personal over estimated self esteem than actual fact.

    Do you accept that the Oxford English Dictionary is, as it claims, ‘ The definitive record of the English language’ ?

    If so please look at the third definition marked 1.2 where it gives the definition of Anglo-Irish as ‘ of mixed English and Irish parentage ‘.

    As my father was English and my mother Irish that description fits me perfectly, doesn’t it?

    Should you wish to disagree with that, please state your reasons and why exactly you believe that you are better qualified to decide on terminology than people who are employed to compile dictionaries.

  • John Collins

    How do you know? The Lords veto had only gone a few years before, so there was no point in Nationalists voting for any change anyway, since it would be overruled by these old farts, who were elected by nobody. When the real voice of the electorate, in what is now the ROI, was heard in 1918 it was overwhelmingly in favour of British departure.
    Bill, try and read the Southern newspapers in the weeks leading up to the 1918 election. The HR candidates and their influential friends in the media said, time and again, that a vote for SF was vote and separation and would lead to isolation and poverty. However the people rejected their analysis and boldly swept them aside.

  • Anglo-Irish


    Then how is it that the UK have been part of Europe for the same period of time and yet not prospered as well?

    And don’t try the old contribution argument because Ireland has been one of the biggest net contributors to the EU budget as a result of its fishing agreement

  • Anglo-Irish

    Possibly more, and probably getting more detached by the minute.

    The moment we cease to have any benefit to American interests we will find out exactly what they think of us.

    As the largest group of European immigrants to America were the Germans and the second largest the Irish it might not be as pleasant as we think.

    The third largest group were from the UK but as that includes three countries and a province who knows how that will effect anything.

  • Anglo-Irish

    You thought that I was only referring to one side?

  • John Collins

    I am just pointing that one ‘shower of hoors’ were as bad as the other over centuries here. It would have been great if more felt, as Daniel O’Connell did, that ‘the freedom of any country was not worth a drop of blood’. However when he got a huge civil rights group going in the 1840 the whole thing collapsed when violence was threatened by his opponents.

  • Anglo-Irish

    The Empire was basically finished by the time I was in my early teens but my ancestors, on both sides were part of it so yes.

    Being born into a situation does not however force you to be unable to tell right from wrong, I know it works that way with some people, but thankfully not all.

  • eireanne3

    a little evidence to show that Ireland was a poor country, north and south of the border before and after WWII – spot the difference!

  • eireanne3

    my message was “let the professionals do their jobs” before anyone else comes to a decision about what caused this man’s death. What’s hard to understand in those few words?

  • eireanne3

    I believe a second post-mortem is being conducted to discern the facts beyond “all reasonable doubt”. Let’s wait for the outcome and the decisions by the professionals – They are the experts in the field as we are not

  • Anglo-Irish

    I was born in 1947 and have similar memories.

    We lived in a rented terrace house in the early 50s. The lighting was provided by gaslight and there was an outside toilet and a tin bath that you used in front of the fire once a week.

    When I went to Clare for the summer the cottage had a thatched roof, an open fire where the cooking was done, water came from the well and lighting was by oil lamp.

    Not only did it not seem in any way inadequate to me, I loved it!

    There was no envy of others in those days, everyone you knew was in similar circumstances and ambitions were low.

    I’m not one to romanticise the past, the majority of things have improved and are better today and I wouldn’t want to return to those days, but at the time it didn’t seem particularly bad.

  • eireanne3

    English Heritage said Carson “made no outstanding contribution to British politics”.This nonentity in English eyes is revered by Ulster Unionists/loyalists. Compare and contrast with his contemporary who is acknowledged to have made an outstanding contribution to British literature and theatre.

  • eireanne3

    here’s how the Unionists in NI acknowledged and commemorated Catholic ex-servicemen who fought in WWI, WWII and later

  • Jollyraj

    “What’s hard to understand in those few words?”

    Uhm..nothing. But then I didn’t have an issue with those words. I have quoted the words I disagreed with, and commented beneath. Isn’t that the way this works?

  • Jollyraj

    So this is basically self-loathing on your part.

  • Granni Trixie

    Is the Pope a Catholc?

  • Anglo-Irish

    How do you come to that ridiculous conclusion?

    Because someone can look at the facts and come to a logical conclusion as to what was right and what was wrong, it somehow makes them self loathing?

    How about someone who is either incapable of knowing the difference between what is right and what is wrong because they are stupid, or were raised by sectarian parents who taught them hatred of ‘themmuns’ at their mothers knee?

    How would you describe them?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Thought you had more sense than that.

    How can you compare a situation where people were fighting – rightly or wrongly – against a political setup that had deliberately excluded them from equality, to a situation where an agreement has been arrived at, agreed by a majority and then some renegade decides to ignore democracy and continue to use violence despite all parties agreeing to pursue political means?

    The desperation of some posters to blame every one of ‘themmuns’ for the actions of a few nutters is pathetic, and shows both a lack of commonsense and an ingrained sectarianism that is a major part of the problem.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Tell me, are you going to ignore our previous conversation where I provided a fact that proved you incorrect in your nonsensical views on the terminology regarding national identity?

    Remember, where you made it up out of your own imagination and got it all wrong?

    Any comment?

  • Jollyraj

    “How about someone who is either incapable of knowing the difference between what is right and what is wrong because they are stupid, or were raised by sectarian parents who taught them hatred of ‘themmuns’ at their mothers knee?
    How would you describe them?”

    Sinn Fein voters?

  • Anglo-Irish

    And that doesn’t apply to any of the Unionist voters?

    Actually, you will probably find a wide choice of opinion across all of them and whilst that description may well apply to some from all sides it won’t apply to all.

    Still dodging the admission that you got it wrong with the Anglo-Irish thing I see. : )

    You also claimed that someone of Pakistani parentage born in Canada would be a Canadian.

    Yet there are members of the PUL community that are adamant that they aren’t Irish, this despite the fact that not only were they born in Ireland, but their family for generations before them were born in Ireland as well.

    Yet they claim to be British, an island they weren’t born on and even go so far as to refer to members of the CN community as Irish.

    How does that work?

  • Jollyraj

    “You also claimed that someone of Pakistani parentage born in Canada would be a Canadian.
    Yet there are members of the PUL community that are adamant that they aren’t Irish, this despite the fact that not only were they born in Ireland, but their family for generations before them were born in Ireland as well.”

    Well, yes, if they had been born in Ireland…but you are talking about British citizens born in Northern Ireland. Equally as British as those born on the island of Great Britain, where you make your home – though you seem to wish you were Irish and spend your time bitterly lashing out at the history of the country you live in. Can’t be easy for you.

  • submariner

    Someone on this thread is censoring my posts for no good reason and with no explanation

  • Anglo-Irish

    You really are obtuse, apparently totally unable to comprehend the most straight forward of facts

    .’Well yes if they were born in Ireland’. Well yes what?

    Are you saying that they are Irish despite the fact many of them claim not to be?

    Why don’t you try explaining that to them then?

    No, they are not ‘ Equally as British as those born on the island of Britain’

    If they were as British there would be no need to provide them with a separate description on the front cover of a British passport, would there?

    A British passport would simply say Britain wouldn’t it, if NI people were the same, they’re not, live with it.

    If I wished that I was Irish I would probably have come up with a user name that didn’t include the word Anglo wouldn’t I?

    I do not ‘lash out bitterly at the history’ I simply point out facts.

    Usually on this forum it means that I’m pointing out those facts to people who are that blind to any wrong doing carried out by ‘ussuns’ that the facts are inconvenient to their mythical beliefs, tough, facts are facts.

    Still no comment on your poor grasp of nomenclature?

  • Hugh Davison

    Glad you agree about the slow learners. Unionists, I mean.

  • Hugh Davison

    Sneer, sneer. We did OK. England looked after us. No poverty in the North.
    To say the Irish People were getting home rule after WW1 is like believing in the fairies. The British establishment regarded WW1 as an excuse to procrastinate. They knew that ‘Carson’s Army’ hadn’t gone away, you know.

  • Hugh Davison

    Tell me more about these billions. Give us links.
    Life before WW2 in both parts of the country was no picnic.

  • Hugh Davison

    That took you a while.

  • Hugh Davison

    Bill, you said you would stop. Now please, stop

  • Hugh Davison

    You still here?