After the Marriage Equality Veto

The Northern Ireland Assembly voted in favour of opening marriage to couples of the same gender by 53 votes to 52 yesterday, although in our Potëmkin democracy it is unlikely to become law any time soon. Although I have known for several years that this would be an inevitable stage in the road to marriage equality in Northern Ireland, it still felt like a punch in the plexus to finally secure a democratic majority through years of hard work only for it to be vetoed undemocratically by the DUP. I was seething yesterday.

I’m a lot more sanguine now, not least after spending a bit of time debating with marriage equality opponents on Twitter yesterday evening. They are angry and defensive. For a long time they deluded themselves that Northern Ireland was a hermetically-sealed bubble where trenchant homophobia could be taken as given and it was unthinkable that any gay rights measure – let alone marriage equality – could pass by a majority vote. Whatever delusions they might have retained after the overwhelming Yes vote in the Republic’s referendum just died a final death, hence the angry defensiveness.

As it turns out, the religious right were the only ones living in a hermetically-sealed bubble; the rest of us have seen attitudes change dramatically around us in Northern Ireland, just as they have everywhere else in the West.

We are not a place apart; just one with a nasty, four-century old, ethnic conflict tangled unfortunately with religion, giving us dysfunctional politics. The dominance of social ultraconservatism has long been ebbing, with the signs of the times clear by the late 1980s for the few trying to listen over the din of The Troubles.

As far as homosexuality goes, I first realised the game was over, and that we had won, at the first Newry Pride parade in 2012. It was a lovely day: happy families, crowds enjoying a splash of colour in the town, no opposition, nobody screaming at us that we were going to Hell. Today Newry, tomorrow Lisburn and Ballymena. This is how social history is made, one step at a time, changing attitudes as the opportunities present themselves, organising as effectively as one can. Never forget, it took 40 years of incessant activity in Parliament for Wilberforce and his successors to see slavery abolished and, yes, they kept putting it to the vote until they got the right result.

Will marriage equality come from the courts or from Stormont? Who knows. This is a milestone for the LGBT movement in Northern Ireland and we need a bit of time to think about the next step.

Those expecting quick relief from Strasbourg should remember that Germany and Italy are yet to legislate for marriage equality, and it has barely scratched the surface in Eastern Europe. There is no reason, however, why we should passively wait for court decisions that could take a decade or more.

From now on, the antis will not only be opposing marriage equality, but democracy itself. In particular, it will be difficult for the DUP to defend the abuse of minority protection provisions, to discriminate against a minority, to mainstream British public opinion that regards marriage equality as a long overdue application of natural justice.

Whatever activists do, in Northern Ireland and elsewhere, should be in your face, non-aggressive, and lots of fun. A major aim should be to make the abuse of the Petition of Concern a costly political decision for the DUP.

As Sam Cooke sang, “There been times that I thought I couldn’t last for long, but now I think I’m able to carry on. It’s been a long, a long time coming, but I know a change gonna come.” I think we can make it happen a bit quicker if we play our cards right.

, , , ,

  • notimetoshine

    It might take years but it will pass eventually. NI is being dragged screaming into the 21st century whether the dinosaurs that run it like it or not. We have quite a young population, and the differences of opinion between the different age groups are quite something.

  • William Carr

    And your proof that children in same sex marriages are not properly brought up?
    Also this virtuous thing what do you mean, by that I can point to a awful lot of society’s who were or are not very virtuous but are also anti gay.

  • William Carr

    More to the point if marriage is about the health of the children how come those who cannot have or don’t want to have children can wed.
    And since the vast majority of child abuse is carried out by heterosexuals, where does that fit in with your strange notions.

  • RJ Macready

    You guys lost the right to be engaged in rational debate when certain members of one of your multitudes of cults started believing in a 6000yr old Earth, man walking with dinosaurs and the equally ludicrous belief in some bearded man walking on water proclaiming to be the son of god and rising from the dead.. how can you have a rational argument with someone like that?

  • William Carr

    Hate to tell you this old chap but the homophones lost the vote, but of course being right wing they have no respect for democracy.
    Just a matter of time now till the LGBT community have the same rights as the rest of Ireland and on the other island as well.
    but explain how is gay rights part of this culture war thing (and what is this culture war thing).

  • William Carr

    Turgon is on a stalling exercise, the same arguments have been spewed out over women s rights,slavery and religious freedom in the past in a futile attempt to muddy waters.
    The tactic has never worked in the past and wont work this time.

  • William Carr

    Please, that is ridiculous,
    Are you claiming that the Gay rights movements all over the world only exist to attack unionist or is the one here different from the rest.
    some proof before you go off on a mope.

  • William Carr

    Proof please. if the point is self evident then proof should be easy.

  • William Carr

    I quite sure that during the debate to abolish slavery some one used the same red herring (all or nothing) it is a old tactic trying to link concepts that have no chance of popular support with the right being demanded in order to make it unacceptable to the majority of people.
    The marry your dog nonsense is just a extreme example.
    The incest thing is more subtle but of the same elk!

  • William Carr

    run a campaign, see if the support is there! but this “no progress till all progress” argument is a nonsense.
    As has been pointed out numerous times it is not the way these things work, Human rights is a gradual process look at history!

  • Sir Rantsalot

    Sounds like they are following the world view and not the bible. Sexual immorality is mentioned a few times and is sin. You can’t ride two horses. Trying to bend bible teaching to fit the world view is nor being true to your faith. Dont be afraid to speak the truth.

  • Reader

    Wrong – SF’s position on the matter is cynical and negative, but the issue exists independently of SF, has majority public support, and has passed into law in areas where SF has no influence.
    If you are opposing a position just because SF are in favour of it – you lose.

  • Reader

    Greenflag 2: Makes the NI State look like a theocracy and probably…
    If you are concerned about 15% of elected officials being Free P, shouldn’t you be even more concerned about faiths with even larger representation?

  • Catcher in the Rye

    Interesting how it is your view that is the correct one and opposing ones amount to mainstream corruption. I suppose the notion that you might be wrong is not one that occurs to you often ?

  • tanyaj

    1. Two people getting married with the informed intention of lifelong fidelity isn’t what I’d call sexual immorality. 2. There’s no such thing as a monolithic ‘bible teaching’ – the Bible is a collection of different types of literature, and we all choose how to interpret it. If you don’t appreciate that, someone else has probably made the choice for you. 3. Neither is there such a thing as a ‘world view’, especially on this contentious issue. 4. This is my faith, and I am being true to it. 5. I’m not afraid.

  • Catcher in the Rye

    As usual, it comes down to sex.

    How interesting it is that it’s the parts about sex in the bible that some people are able to easily quote. It’s almost as if they re-read it so often they’ve memorised it.

  • Catcher in the Rye

    The difference this time is that you lost. Maybe you will reflect on this further, although somehow I doubt it.

  • Catcher in the Rye

    While the Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom, it is also not a foreign country in any sense of the word.

  • Catcher in the Rye

    Unionism’s opposition to gay marriage is a position it arrived at voluntarily, is one which it exercises complete control over, and is one where it fails miserably to represent its own voters properly.

  • Greenflag 2

    Presumably that is why the RC Church in the 16th century opposed the bible translated in the local vernacular German or English . As only a tiny percentage of the population could understand Latin they probably guessed that interpretations would differ .

  • Quick question here Turgon, as I’ve read this point of your’s before.

    Say we abolish church marriage as a state recognised institution, to be replaced by a Union Civile and then leave the concept of faith group marriage solely to the faith groups. Would you be happy for said Union Civile to be legally referred to as ” marriage ” ( as it would obviously colloquially already be ) allowing all the marginalised groups you mention the right to accurately refer to themselves as married?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Pray do tell, how did the unionists in England, Scotland and Wales vote on such matters?

    Do you really mean that SF were in favour of something ergo by default it must automatically be bad for unionism?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “….the same elk!”

    Are you just extrapolating on your ‘marrying animals’ argument? 🙂

    I’ll get my coat…

  • Greenflag 2

    I’m for freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion . If Gingrays numbers are correct then a large number of unionists vote for candidates who believe evolution is heresy and scientific fact isn’t true . Now that is scary .

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Pete

    As much as I want to stay out of this debate your point does interest me.

    So, off the top of my head I would say this:

    Imagine a village with 100 single men and 100 single females.

    In a non-polygamous society (and assuming that no one is homosexual, just for sake of argument) there’s a chance everyone will pair up.

    In a polygamous society Mr Moneybags at the top will have 3/4 wives thereby depriving 2/3 chaps of their potential bride.

    Assuming that another 10 chaps also have more than one wife then that’s another 10fellas (at least) without a bride.

    In my experience younger, sexually frustrated men (especially groups of them) are a potential recipe for trouble (think how many guys want to kick-off and fight on a Saturday night because they haven’t pulled).

    Now, this doesn’t constitute evidence, but rather some food for thought – I did a quick Google search and found an American state where the level of rape and sexual crime “…. occurs at a higher rate than the rest of the nation”.

    That state, in keeping with your polygamy based argument is Utah where there was (and still is a bit, though not legally if I understand correctly) a culture of Polygamy.

    http://www.health.utah.gov/vipp/topics/rape-sexual-assault/

    Like I say, not evidence in its own right but certainly worth thinking about.

  • Greenflag 2

    You don’t need a Trojan horse to attack unionism . All you need is to be able to breathe – do your sums – understand evolution – and enough basic science in physics and biology – plus a modicum of common sense and a grasp of the history of Ireland and Britain and you’ll have enough ammo to attack unionism for a millenium . Add in politics , democracy , demographics and you can keep it up for eons . Not that I’d recommend that course of action .

  • Dominic Hendron

    Wasn’t talking Gay Rights movement per se but the political opportunism of some parties to it: Catriona Ruane bringing the issue up every six months, she is there to do a job in my view; also the lack of courage of some SDLP members with one notable exception. If this is their new plan to become relevant then, as a long time voter, I’m not impressed.

  • Dominic Hendron

    Standing up for traditional marriage as building block for society without prejudice to anyone; if it’s broke fix it.

  • Dominic Hendron

    Ever heard of a man called Gramsci

  • barnshee

    What rights are not recognised?

  • barnshee

    “. Or are you positing that ‘native whites’ are being ‘out bred’?”

    It would appear so

    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/345

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/519870/Migrant-baby-boom-UK-high-birthrate

  • Pete

    That is completely tenuous “evidence”. Not logical at all.

  • barnshee

    ‘Much bigger than the 0.6% of the population who are Free Presbyterian, yet make up 15% of all elected officials in Northern Ireland – or nearly 1 in 3 elected unionists’

    The way ahead is clear – let the gay lobby stand for election and when elected change the sysytem.

  • barnshee

    Separate currency

    Separate legislation

    Separate official language

    Recognised as a separate country internationally

    “While the Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom, it is also not a foreign country in any sense of the word.”

    Are you sure?

  • Chingford Man

    Maybe you should check out the meaning of “foreign” in a dictionary.

  • Chingford Man

    Maybe you should check out the voting rules, of which you are obviously ignorant.

  • kalista63

    As a Catholc, these debates amaze me when they throw up the uber Catholic. Even the most attentive catholics, that I lnow, are liberal and the rest of us are a bit younge in cheek, take the pill and wear ribbed Johnnys.

    Obviously, the same goes on abortion but there are different dynamics in that debate.

  • npbinni

    Anythings goes, I suppose… adopted son and father seek right to marry!?: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/11/03/father-adopted-son-seek-right-to-marry-each-other/

  • JohnTheOptimist

    Your post shows how morality is turned on its head in modern liberal society. A supporter of bank-robbing bomb-planting SF/IRA (or SF/MI5 as it should be more accurately called) accusing Christian Churches of being like the mafia. I’d say the Provision Irish Republican Army resemble the real mafia a lot more than the Salvation Army do. Turgon puts forward rational arguments, with which one may agree or disagree, but he is not a bigot for so doing. If Turgon is a bigot, then both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were bigots until recently. It is comical to see all these people, who opposed gay marriage until 5 minutes ago, making overnight conversions, then accusing those who agree with their previous position of being bigots.

  • William Carr

    So its not the gay rights movement your talking about, i see!
    Never mind that all the pools show that the majority of people support gay marriage and so do the majority of MLA’s also support it plus its also a world wide movement you blame the Shinners.
    you know it nice to see the old tradition of shouting THEMMUNS has not died out.

  • Chingford Man

    So democracy is about majority rule? I’m quite happy with a return to the Brookeborough era but others may not be.

    If you are unfamiliar with the “culture war thing”, I’d recommend Google.

  • Chingford Man

    Also a member of the United Nations.

  • William Carr

    So SF have a policy, a popular policy but a small minority of bible thumpers oppose it (check out the polls) also other parties have either the same policy or have given their members the right to make up their own minds on the subject.
    Plus Northern Ireland alone on these Islands does not have same sex marriage.
    And of course during the debate we have had buffoons coming on the radio and claiming that the end plan is to be allowed to marry your dog, other people (mainly unionists) are trying to link being Gay with incest and polygamy and making the equally absurd claims that It demeans hetero marriage and (my personal favorite) children suffer when their parents are of the same sex (strange how those who make these wild claims can never back them up)

    And despite all this you see a shinner plot.
    Boy are you ever on the wrong side of history but keep shouting THEMMUNS after all it worked in the past, i just don’t think it will work this time.

  • William Carr

    Yep democracy is about majority rule with minority’s protected and enjoying the same rights as everyone else.
    The Brookborough era was not a democracy the minority was denied full rights and discriminated against i am surprised you cannot see the difference.
    Unlike the actions of the old Stormount and unionist state (which collapsed under the weight of it discriminatory practices) this (gay marriage) is about extending rights to a minority and not oppressing them and denying rights to them.
    that is a very large and important difference.

  • Robin Keogh

    I understand exactly but at least they can have the ceremony in one part of their country. Little solace i know but at least its something.

  • Robin Keogh

    Yes of course

  • William Carr

    The “Culture war thing” is a classic example of unionist mopery.
    and not actually a real thing.

  • William Carr

    im shocked, please where is this indoctrination taking place, please give examples !

  • William Carr

    your coat left without you!

  • Would they be recognised as having (all) the rights of a married couple?

  • Robin Keogh

    The example you give is an issue for him abd his employers. If the incident was as clear cut as you portray, it seems harsh and i couldnt support it.

    As for Ball playing Turgon, you cant call me and others hypocrites and then have a wee cry when you are insulted in return. In any event, i am not convinced you are homophobic, bigoted or hatefilled, but your argument certainly is.

    What you propse is fair, in that it might be more ideal to completly seperate church state and draw marraiges along the lines you suggest.

    But that is not the argument is it. That is not what is at issue here?

  • Put this on earlier, then realised that I was hours behind the discussion, so apolgies for the repost.

    Quick question here for Turgon, as I’ve read this point of your’s about other groups several times before. I’d like your opinion on a hypothetical scenario grown out of your own hypothetical suggestion.

    Say we abolish church marriage as a state recognised institution, to be replaced by a Union Civile and then leave the concept of faith group marriage solely to the faith groups as you suggest.
    Would you be happy for said Union Civile to be legally referred to as ” marriage ” ( as it would obviously colloquially already be ) allowing the marginalised groups you mention the right to accurately refer to themselves as married if they so choose?
    Members of faith groups could then, if they want, refer to their Catholic Marriage, COI Marriage, Jewish, Greek Orthodox Marriage etc as a separate, faith based, union/ceremony….

    Obviously everyone is afforded the same legal rights under the legal procedure and no-one is marginalised by having to refer to their Marriage in terminology that could be seen as reductive towards their union.
    Thoughts?

  • Gaygael

    I relied on a parliamentary report Turgon. The link is above.
    The examples you list above are some Christians using their faith to discriminate against LGBT people. That’s illegal. You don’t get special privilege or exemption from equality laws. Just like LGBT people don’t.

  • Greenflag 2

    WC – Some of them haven’t learned from the past -and never will . Try persuading a wall that the cement that holds it together needs replacing or it will fall down . Walls are notorious for not listening 😉

  • Greenflag 2

    I’ll have to create a lexicon of these expressions i.e

    The best worst option
    Whatever you say say nothing
    At the end of the day
    We know where you live
    Fenian B********
    Orange B*****

    etc etc .

  • Greenflag 2

    ‘NI is being dragged screaming into the 21st century’

    No its not . Its just about getting ready to cross from the 19th into the 20th in some respects and in others its still back in the mid 17th . As I said a kind of twilight zone where seeming random appearances of being in the 21st century-quickly vanish and revert back to whichever century they belong in . It’s the politics of the Quantum 😉

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “That is completely tenuous “evidence”. ”

    I did not say it was evidence, this was hinted at by my saying “Now, this doesn’t constitute evidence, but rather some food for thought” and “Like I say, not evidence in its own right but certainly worth thinking about.”

    “Not logical at all”

    So, you’re telling me that there is no potential for a link whatsoever between a shortage of females and an increase of sex-related crimes?

    If my reasoning is without logic then it should be simple enough to deconstruct it, so, fire at will.

  • Chingford Man

    When I was a child I had a mechanical doggie. I would put batteries into its belly, switch it on and it would wander to the other side of the room, stopping to bark every few seconds.

    For some reason, you remind me of the doggie.

  • Greenflag 2

    Canadians can’t work in the American Civil service . neither can they enlist in the American Forces . There’s no restriction on English or Irish or Northern Irish doing any of the above in any of the areas mentioned. People in NI can choose either passport and play soccer for either international team . The list goes on . So while the list provided is factual for most people it hardly matters . For some unionists and ultra loyalists in Northern Ireland the differences are all they have left to cling to as they look around at a world that increasingly belongs to others and is not exclusively theirs .

  • William Carr

    Right, i see so when you were a child you had a toy that knew more about democracy than you do as a adult.
    Perhaps you should have kept this wonder toy got the batteries with the copper colored tops and listened to it more!
    Seriously if every time somebody proves you wrong you get abusive perhaps you could either stop bringing up silly comparisons or just grow up!

  • William Carr

    and if Stormount collapse’s the ROI will be in joint control of this place, you can get a Irish passport and no border except on a map, hell you even have to pay parking fines if you live in Belfast and double park in Dublin.
    Not really that foreign after all!

  • barnshee

    You can get an Irish passport in Australia if yer granny came from Ireland
    You get a speeding ticket in France and have to pay it in NI

    Not really foreign countries then

    There is no danger of joint authority– bills would have to be paid

  • Greenflag 2

    No but I checked a link quickly . I’ve seen his quotes . They would probably be wider known if the Italian Communist Party had taken power in Italy in the late 1940’s and 50’s when they got 34% of the vote .

    In the Europe of his time and elsewhere in the world today you could only tell the truth if you were prepared to run for your life literally . Everybody has illusions its just that some of them become quite grandiose and bear no relation to the harsh reality that surrounds them . I may have been about 15 when I realised that the black clad clericals were selling illusions at more than face value . Critical thinking will get you there .

    Their legacy continues even here surprisingly and yes the ultra religious Ayatollahs don’t like bella ciao any more than the Italian Fascists did .

  • barnshee

    The tolerance of the UK to Ireland is truely remarkable allowing the generations of dumping of surplus population and other social problems on the UK taxpayer gerorous indeed

  • Chingford Man

    (Yawn.)

  • William Carr

    no danger of joint rule then. you obviously have not being paying attention to what has been going down over the last 20 years,
    geting out of the bunker more often would be good for you.

  • Chingford Man

    You haven’t proved me wrong, you’ve just proved that you can relay the normal nationalist whinge. That was my point, although I shall leave it at that as it’s getting away from the subject of whinging gay marriage advocates.

  • William Carr

    You mean all those highly trained medics and the like who keep Britain running and pay taxes.
    and what are these other social problems you refer to?

  • William Carr

    So let me get this straight, you are denying that the old Stormount discriminated against Catholics (it is very well documented) and you are claiming that extending rights to a minority is the same as denying rights to a minority!
    you should have listened to the doggie.

  • Greenflag 2

    or yawn it beats having to think 😉

  • Greenflag 2

    Thats why the Chinese Government got rid of it’s 1 child policy which began in 1980 . With an estimated 40 million males without any possibility of getting a wife this has led to social tensions apart from the growing number of Chinese parents who are now facing old age with just one (very often ) spoiled brat to care for them in their old age .

    In keeping with the above these wife less Chinese have purchased ‘foreign ‘ brides by mail order or even by the latter travelling to remote Chinese towns where these men live . And then of course they collect the dosh and very soon poor old Chang comes home after work to find wifey has gone -usually to another ‘client ‘ .

    Its endemic and understandable as the wives come from places in Asia even less well off than rural China .

  • Chingford Man

    Stick to the article and stop being boring.

  • Greenflag 2

    Only too logical . I’ve been to Utah 50% Mormon and the non Mormons have tough time . The Mormons have more power over their followers than any other cult in the USA bar perhaps the Scientology financial fraudster or the Dandy and Beano Jehovah Witnesses with their lambs lying down in the same field as lions nonsense .

  • Gaygael

    Why would you vote for a party that allows a free vote on this and other moral/social issues?
    I think that is an empty threat.

  • William Carr

    oh dear, you brought up the old Unionist rule thing and it just didn’t work out for you. then you invented a super toy, that didn’t work out either so now you would like to forget about these little howlers, I understand that your embarrassed perhaps thinking before you type next time will save you from a redner.

  • Greenflag 2

    The tolerance of Ireland to the UK is even more remarkable .Without the millions of Irish who were forced under British rule to leave Ireland -Britain would have to have imported even more immigrants from Bangla Desh , West Indies , Poland etc .

    Now that the poor English etc have decided they don’t want their progeny to grow up as economic slaves in their own country they have outsourced the production of the next generation to those who are more used to bringing up children in poverty stricken conditions . Its called capitalism or more correctly financial sector led capitalism.

    Same in USA , Germany, France etc and Ireland /Northern Ireland are heading the same way .

  • Gaygael

    LGBT people are probably a bigger group than your version of extremism.
    But its not a numbers game.

  • Gaygael

    Dominic, have you followed the progress of LGBT equality throughout the last 30yrs? There has been significant denial of our equality.
    In fact the DUP still refuse to say whether they support decriminalisation and only earlier this year, Peter Robinson, who has responsibility for equality supported by member calling for recriminalisation.

  • Gaygael

    I again note that you didn’t deny attacking lgbt people. I think your cynical use of a muslim woman is abusive.
    For the sake of civility I will withdraw that you were attacking muslims. I won’t withdraw that you were attacking lgbt people.
    Now, I am delighted that you will be supporting our campaign to bring forward consultation and relevant legislation on marriage.
    Can you tell your paymasters in the TUV/DUP?

  • Gaygael

    Denied right to apply to adopt.
    Denied survivor pensions.
    Differential immigration rights.

  • Gaygael

    I broadly agree. LGBT people are just as reflective of the prejudices and privileges of wider society.

  • Gaygael

    Didn’t see you call out Givan’s conscience clause. Must have missed that one. Businesses are not people. The most pertinent example is the ‘Christian Institute’ hiring the Waterfront. By hiring the venue does that mean the Waterfront endorse their campaign. No. They are a business that hires out a venue. And a huge variety of groups use it.
    You are trying to resurrect a whole range of ‘God versus the Gays’ tropes. Please stop. This is not useful.
    The issue at hand is marriage, the symbolic assembly majority (still awaiting a congratulations) and the repeated abuse of the petition of concern by the DUP.

  • LiamÓhÉ

    A semi OT thought: what would we talk about in a United Ireland where there were no more border polls, PoC, sectarian politics, or equality bashing? Primetime / Nolan Live are covering the topic (United Ireland vs Status Quo (how apt)) that informs the key angle of 95% of posts on this website this evening from 10.30pm, based on a 2k poll (don’t know the stats or selection process).

  • Croiteir

    I am not sure what you mean by homophobia and I also do not getwhat “cross the floor” means

  • Dominic Hendron

    I haven’t followed the progress of LGBT equality but I find the issue of marriage equality perplexing and provocative to my understanding of what marriage is and what it means. I also find it irritating the way political parties have jumped on the bandwagon and are either using the issue to their own ends or are afraid to be on the “wrong side of history” . I don’t see why the issue has become such a litmus test for progressive thinking while other issues such as poverty and workers rights are ignored. This has happened on both sides of the border and the abiding image I have of the referendum in the south is of Pantibliss in a Larkin pose. It is a grotesque distortion of the reality for many people who are struggling with the politics of austerity to equate the two. I wouldn’t deny anyone the right to a happy life with someone they truly love but what has that got to do with rights. As to bigots, there will always be bigots

  • William Carr

    did you read that link before you posted it? it if anything is a argument for SSM.
    before you kick off actually read the thing.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Yes, William, far more interesting when the article is actually read through.

  • Dominic Hendron

    1) It wasn’t me who talked about a “Trojan horse” to “get these Bastards”
    2) All four main churches are against redefinition of marriage to include same sex couples
    3) I pointed out that the SDLP have behaved in a cowardly manner on this issue
    4) Standing alone is not necessarily a bad thing if you feel you’re right

  • William Carr

    On point one. every time a equality issue comes up and the shinners support you will of course quote Gerry to prove that its a IRA plot,
    this is pretty stupid opposing something because SF supports it, this makes SF look progressive and unionists look backward!

    point two, shows how out of touch the churches are with the people (this disconnection is maybe the reason for falling attendance) although many individual Ministers and priests support SSM.

    point three, Are you suggesting that SDLP MLA’s voted against there conscience, where is your proof for this.

    point four, No it is not a bad thing to stand alone if you think your right, however be prepared to lose!

  • William Carr

    This obsession unionists have with GA and his mumbling s is wonderful, but more to the point SSM is not a shinner Trojan horse and it is only a matter of time till it is achieved.
    A POC had to be used to defeat a majority vote,

    However it is somehow comforting to see that the old unionist tradition of shouting THEMUNNS when the going gets tough carries on!

  • Dominic Hendron

    You move more easily from SF to IRA than a unionist, its the toxic nature of politics that I’m getting at and how issues, important in themselves, are used in a punch and judy style show.

  • William Carr

    “You move more easily from SF to IRA than a unionist,”
    not quite sure what this means, perhaps you could explain it please!
    and the last bit is a bit vague as well, are you or are you not claiming that the SSM campaign is a Shinner plot.
    your 4 points don’t stand up to scrutiny and i am still waiting for proof on your claim that the SDLP acted in a cowardly manner!

  • Dominic Hendron

    “Shinner” or “IRA plots” are your words not mine. My original comment was that there is something disquietingly insincere about the whole issue which was based on Catriona Ruane’s comment on Nolan that she intended to bring the issue up every six months in response to David McNarry’s revelation of bullying by individuals connected with the gay lobby. As to the SDLP, some of their members dodged the issue at the last debate and now they appear, as one commentator disparagingly said, “to have got their ducks in order” which raises the question who is leading who on this issue. Personally I believe that everybody’s rights should be protected under the law but marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution. No amount of politicking, intellectualizing, moralizing or polling will change that. Even the great dawning of a new age in the rainbow republic won’t change that

  • William Carr

    ,”Shinner” or “IRA plots” are your words not mine. true but
    could you explain this comment.
    “You move more easily from SF to IRA than a unionist,”
    and its relevance please considering most unionists just say SF/IRA which is much shorter than what i typed?
    And CR is insincere by making a commitment to come back to a vote every six months, a strange way to look at insincere!
    Davids claim of bullying was funny, when questioned on it he responded that people were sending him emails about it and coming up yo him in the street about it, that is called lobbying by everybody else.
    got anything else to back up your claim of SDLP cowardice than a “ducks in order” comment by a commentator? to be honest not a lot of proof.
    Of course it should be noted that,” but marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution. is just a opinion and not really a fact.