Mairia Cahill “I am appalled. Gerry knows the truth. He knows I know the truth.”

So here’s a long response from Gerry Adams to the allegations on RTE’s News At One today, followed by Mairia Cahill’s criticism on Newstalk at lunchtime:

The real meat of the day though was in a Press Conference at Leinster House following a meeting between Ms Cahill and Micheal Martin of Fianna Fail. The Irish Times reports:

In response Ms Cahill said: “I am appalled. Gerry knows the truth. He knows I know the truth. I have been forced into the position where I have had to waive my anonymity because of his previous denials on that issue and I think that is reprehensible.”

She commended the Spotlight programme for making the documentary about her case.

“I also think that Gerry not only owes the victims across the board an apology for how the IRA and Sinn Féin handled this issue. He also owes Micheál Martin a public apology because he called it a ‘new low’ after he raised this issue in 2012.

“And his party colleague Pearse Doherty came out and said those claims were unfounded and untrue. And I think at this point Sinn Féin needs to come out and say that the IRA internally investigated sex abuse cases that Sinn Féin members were involved in some cases in that.”

She went on…

Ms Cahill said that very prominent senior figures in Sinn Féin including Gerry Adams who was an MP at the time learned of her allegations. “Gerry had a duty to report that to the police and he did not do so.”

She said there were other women and men who had been treated in the same way. “I have met with victims in similar situations and I also have met with former senior Provisional members of the IRA who confirmed that they internally investigated cases of abuse. I think at this point it is completely ludicrous of Sinn Féin to keep denying the issue.

She also pointed to the fact that Mary Lou McDonald had previously called on anybody within the Catholic Church who had been found to have covered up abuse to be arrested and prosecuted and face the full rigours of the law.

“I am challenging Mary Lou McDonald to come out again and call on those members within Sinn Féin currently, and I don’t think there is any doubt about this, who have been found to have covered up cases of child sexual abuse to be arrested, prosecuted and face the full rigours of the law. Nobody should be above the law on this issue.”[Emphasis added]

On Mr Adams’ rather flimsy and detail free account of his conversations with Ms Cahill, she..

…said it was important that she had live witnesses who can corroborate it. “Gerry has chosen two dead people and I think that is absolutely reprehensible given his close relationship with those two people. That he has told lies about them and he has lied about me and he clearly has trouble with some aspects of his memory and it is not just on this issue but on other issues in the past just like he denies his membership of the IRA which I also know not to be true.

She finished:

“The time has come where he needs to come out and say yes this was an issue; yes it was wrong; no Maíria Cahill is not a liar and that is the starting point for them.

Micheal Martin started Sinn Fein’s …

“Her fear was that it would never see the light of day or get through. Unfortunately it has come to pass in that way and what is very clear from my perspective, I did make a public statement, some time back in relation to how Sinn Féin/IRA dealt generally with victims of sexual abuse very similar to the Catholic Church. The institution came first.

“I think Sinn Féin and Gerry Adams have very serious questions to answer. What role did the IRA play? There clearly was an internal kangaroo court operated by the IRA to keep Maíria quiet and silent on this. [emphasis added]

On Adams’ self serving handling of the Spotlight revelations:

“Today both Maíria and I listened to Gerry Adams on RTE1 and I just watched the reaction of Maíria to it. Disbelief in terms of his comment that he didn’t know her very well.

He did a despicable thing in my view in that he attempted to undermine her when he referred to self-harm in 2002.
Mr Martin said that the one thing people should never do in a situation like this was to try and undermine the person involved.

“You don’t in a very underhand way try to undermine the credibility or the character of the person involved and I think that was absolutely despicable that that happened today on the News at One.

And finally…

“There are a number of key factors here. The first is that a decision was taken here that this case would not be reported to the police by Sinn Féin and the IRA. They attempted to deal with it internally and in an appalling manner.

“There was not full cooperation with the police from a lot of parties and then the police investigation itself left a lot to be desired. I know that will be the subject of an investigation by the Ombudsman.

“Sinn Féin needs to deal with tis past in this regard because we all remember the clarion calls from Sinn Féin spokespeople for Church people to resign their positions in relation to similar situations.

“There is no doubt in my mind and we have had other people coming forward in a similar context and the bottom line is this: that they dealt with these issues internally to try and suppress any emergence of the truth in relation to these issues for the purposes of preserving intact the reputation of Sinn Féin/IRA. [emphasis added throughout]

, ,

  • Jag

    Ms Cahill now appearing on the Vincent Browne show for 40 mins (TV3 in Republic). The “alleged” s appear to have been dispensed with. On now, 11.05pm, TV 3 in Republic.

  • Tacapall

    Jag you and MH are scraping the bottom of the barrel, are the other victims unimportant in your view of things ?

  • barnshee

    So sad a beautiful girls life seriously damaged

  • $33309652

    Are you sad about the State of policing in “your” country Too?

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/01/31/348577/uk-police-ignores-1-in-3-rape-reports/

  • $33309652
  • $33309652

    Mr Fealty.
    An open letter.
    As many as One Third of Uk Rapes reported to police are Written off…discarded binned.
    So, whose head do you want on a spike for this?
    David Cameroon’s? the Home secretaries??
    Who’s?
    Now that you are the new internet evanglist for Rape cases.

  • USA

    Did I miss the bit where the article mentions charges were brought against an accused in the courts, but the public prosecution service decided not to pursue the case? Was that important fact left our for any particular reason?
    As I recall, the last time something like this happened (the Liam Adams case), the RUC spent the whole “interrogation” trying to turn the mother and child (victim) into informers. Yet they still managed to arrest Adams over 20 years later during an election campaign. Cynical, me? Never.

  • gunterprien
    An open letter.
    Please stop wasting everyone’s time with your pathetic attempts at misdirection.

  • Tacapall

    You dont have to prove anything to me how unjust British justice is Guntherprien however this is Ireland and lets just stick to the facts about this case. Unfortunately for Maria and the time the rape occurred in the absence of any other evidence other than verbal evidence from the victim, the word of an IRA volunteer as opposed to the word of a member of Joe public was taken as higher value than that of the victim, in other words, if she had of been an IRA volunteer herself, her word would have been taken and Morris probably would have been shot. Thats the sad reality of living in a conflict zone and no different than the British government who for decades took the word of its own soldiers when faced with any accusations by people not classed as British citizens.

  • Jag

    Don’t know what you’re on about Tacapall, was just drawing attention to a c40 minute interview between the person at the centre of this scandal/tragedy/headline.

    The interview is available here.

    http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/0/0/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

    For those of you unfamiliar with the work of Vincent Browne, he’s a barrister and journalist of 40 years. He’s known for hectoring his guests but he’s a cut above Radio Face maybe because of his debating, legal background.

    He treated Ms Cahill with kid gloves, the only firmness being in the repetition of a couple of questions for which the answers leave you hanging. Why did Ms Cahill continue to visit the alleged abuser’s home, and what was the detail of her abandoning her case (“I didn’t abandon the case” was a response which I found confusing).

    The overwhelming opinion and impression I had of the interview was that I hope Ms Cahill is speaking to a professional about her experience, someone who solely has her interests at heart, I got the impression that she was daily reliving the details which were driving her into rage and depression (that’s not a comment on the veracity of anything she’s said). I think she would benefit from teasing out with a professional the conversation she said she had with GA (I use this phrasing because GA has denied there was a conversation), and the manner in which the IRA investigation took place.

    She may win a scalp from Sinn Fein, the IRA or her alleged abuser. She may not. But I think a proper resolution is unlikely, and I hope she has a plan B with talking it through with a professional. She’s a young, beautiful, articulate and ballsy woman, she has her whole life ahead of her. I hope she can look back in 50 years and not see a life blighted by this past experience, unable to blossom into the life for which she otherwise seems so well equipped.

  • bellefast

    They didn’t decide not to pursue it. She withdrew her evidence when she lost faith in the way the police and PPS had handled the case. They didn’t leave that out of the programme.

  • NMS

    Jag VB normally treats non professional interviewees with a level of respect and decorum not normally given to others who might be more used to the media.

    I would imagine appearing on live TV must be very similar to doing a job/promotion interview for most of us, even the most confident and best prepared do not answer all questions in a complete and concise manner.

    Vincent & Stephen are showmen at heart.

  • barnshee

    “Are you sad about the State of policing in “your” country Too?”

    Sad at police incompetence (there is of course the police complaints system which appears equally incompetent) mind you also sad at failure by police to ensure society was able to lock up murder gangs instead of buying them off with taxpayer funded jobs –but there you go–its a funny old world —-and pots might be careful before they call kettles black. http://www.womensaid.ie/policy/natintstats.htmls

  • barnshee
  • $33309652

    I will. When Rape isn’t used as a political football. It’s disgusting.
    Don’t you think.
    And at least in this case the IRA looked into it for 2 months..
    Which is more time than so called UK police services.
    And point 2..How come Slugger has been so silent for SO long.
    n the dismal treatment of ALL rape victims.
    Until the chance arose to play political football.
    It’s nauseauting.

  • Your faux-outrage would be touching, if it wasn’t so…well…faux

    I don’t recall Slugger ever claiming to be an anti-rape campaigning site.

    In fact, given how exercised you’re trying to be over this issue, it’s odd how rarely you’ve raised this issue in the past.

    And in case you’ve forgotten, Slugger didn’t bring this issue to the public eye, it was the alleged victim herself.

    But hey, there’s allegations being raised about the dear leader, so clearly there should be a N. Korean-style blanket ban on any media coverage of it.

  • bellefast

    He was her uncle so not visiting his home would have been difficult given she wasn’t allowed to say what was happening. And anyone who has experience of abuse would know that it’s a complex area concerning guilt and feelings of responsibility, fear and silence. It’s the same as asking why don’t domestic violence victims just leave? Things aren’t always so black and white. As to the case being dropped, she withdrew her evidence which isn’t the same thing. The three cases were interlinked. They separated out Morris’ IRA membership accusation from the abuse. When they didn’t secure McCullough as a prosecution witness, and instead allowed him to turn up last minute as a defense witness, that case was basically lost. It was her word against the two of them. If she couldn’t use his membership in court it took away a keystone of the abuse allegation – that he was in the IRA and she was afraid of him. If there was no abuse case, there was no case for the others who were accused in interrogating/covering up the abuse. Given that this had all taken 4 years, which had an immense effect on her and the family, it’s not surprising that at that point she decided to spare herself three sets of testimonies. I’m not sure if people can empathise with the humiliation of recounting details of rape and abuse in front of strangers and family. She already “allegedly” had to do that in front of the interrogation sqaud, and Morris himself, who was allowed to “cross-examine” her. She is indeed ballsy but God I wouldn’t have been able to do that when I knew it would be for nothing.

  • $33309652

    “…But hey, there’s allegations being raised about the dear leader, so clearly there should be a N. Korean-style blanket ban on any media coverage of it…
    ==========================
    Straw Man argument…I never said don’t cover it.
    But the Wall to Wall coverage is distasteful
    and the fact that Uk police forces bin up to One Third of their own investigations. You lot are holding the Republican movement to a higher standard.
    It’s almost admitting you think they should behave better than the Brits…Very touching indeed that you hold the movement in such high regard.
    ==========================================
    “….In fact, given how exercised you’re trying to be over this issue, it’s odd how rarely you’ve raised this issue in the past……”
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    I don’t recall a Rape victim being used as a political football in the past.
    So that is why I am exercised.
    Again a point that seems lost on you.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    “…..Your faux-outrage would be touching….”
    =========================
    Due to the FACT that the IRA investigated this matter for what 3 Months and so called UK police forces bin up to 1/3 of their Rape cases.
    That has been lost in translation.
    The Faux outrage is ALL Mick Fealty, You and other Unionists..who blithely either ignore or are unaware( amounts to same thing ) as to just how shoddy Rape victims in general are treated.
    so Liathroidis to you.

  • Ah right, so I’m one of “you lot”, i.e. a unionist. And because I have a political view regarding NI’s constitutional status, that automatically means that I “blithely ignore…how shoddy Rape victims in general are treated.”

    Utter idiocy, but not unexpected given your various other remarks.

    The only thing that has you foaming at the mouth here is that Gerry might be on the hook for something, and you’d rather it all went quietly away.

  • $33309652

    “Ah right, so I’m one of “you lot”, i.e. a unionist. And because I have a political view regarding NI’s constitutional status, that automatically means that I “blithely ignore…how shoddy Rape victims in general are treated.”…
    ==========================
    Again Straw man argument.
    I said was Rape victims are treated in a shabby manner all over the So called UK.
    And this fact and the fact that you lot are using this as a political football is disgusting.
    Question- How many times do I have to repeat myself before you drop your straw man arguments.

    It isn’t solely the fact that you are a unionist..But is is the fact of the shoddy treatment of ALL rape victims but the attempts to highlight and play political football with ONE case that is stomach churning.
    If you can’t see that then that’s on you.

  • $33309652

    “….lock up murder gangs …”

    ============================

    What was Tony Blair then?

    Have you read about what happened in Afghanastan.

    Have you read how the British used Heavy artillery and Harrier jump jets to flatten Bazaars or City centres over there?

    What “justice” for these?

    From Doctor Mike Martin’s book banned by MoD until recently.

    “…These factors combined with no evidence of reconstruction and very heavy use of airpower to defend their isolated positions resulting in civilian casualties. For example, the British dropped 18,000lbs of explosive (say, 25 airstrikes) on Now Zad that summer and flattened the bazaar..

    So, who are the murder gangs?

    Once again from the British/ Unionist tradition.

    It’s Do as I say. Not Do as I do.

    Has the penny dropped yet?

    Here’s the article I took the quote from.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exterritorial-army-captain-whose-book-on-helmand-was-blocked-by-the-mod-is-finally-cleared-to-publish-9249305.html

  • Comrade Stalin

    Slugger is a blog discussing the politics of Northern Ireland in particular but the UK and Ireland in general (especially when relevant to NI). It doesn’t discuss general issues like rape victims.

    This story is of interest because a major political party which claims to support equality and promotes a rights-based agenda for citizens (etc) has been discovered covering up claims of sexual abuse. It might not be such a story if it only happened once, but Máiría is now the third victim whose story has become public in recent years.

    It is right to say that some people are using it as a political football, and I think Slugger’s litany of threads is overplaying things, but this “move along, nothing to see here” stuff from the Shinnerbots is similarly about political expediency.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The reason why a rape victim may be in danger of being used as a political football is because of Sinn Féin’s actions. Had the victim in question been sent to the RUC in the first instance, or at the very least had the IRA not acted to cover up this crime, we would have nothing to talk about here.

    On the issue of the statistics. The rate of rape cases which never result in a conviction overall is even higher. It’s considerably higher than two thirds. They can’t all be spurious claims, and this is symptomatic of the problem – rape is a very hard allegation to actually prove in a court of law – no witnesses, usually no evidence, etc. It is the victim’s word against that of her attacker. That’s even if the victim is emotionally capable of going through the ordeal of having to relive the attack by replaying it to the police investigators and in court, and facing her attacker in court and testifying. A lot of the time that simply doesn’t happen and that is likely to be why so many cases get dropped – and we’ve not even dealt with the cases that do not make it to court, or go entirely unreported.

    Add to this the problem that it is only (relatively) recently that the police have begun to take rape allegations seriously. Marital rape only became illegal in Ireland in 1990 and in England in 1991 (take a moment to think about this – it was completely legal for husbands to have sex with their wives without their consent in 1990). Culturally we are still a society getting our heads collectively around the offense of rape and what it is. We’re still not educating young people, young men especially, properly on where the lines are that cannot be crossed.

    The crux of your argument, though, is that the case is spurious. For that to be true, it requires us to believe that a young 16-18 year old from a republican family is going to circulate false accusations, cut ties with her extended family, fake a variety of health issues, and drag a bunch of people through court over a four year period with a set of made-up accusations. That’s just impossible for any reasonable person to accept.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Whataboutery isn’t going to cut it, Gunter.

  • $33309652

    This is a fair comment.
    It’s not often I shall agree with you.
    So let me take the opportunity now.

  • Hey bad luck Gunter, there’s a new thread started on this subject. Your sad efforts to close this down have failed. Maybe you need to go off and protect the dear leader on another thread. In the meantime, Comrade S has posted some sensible stuff on this topic, not that that is likely to be of interest to you

  • $33309652

    Oh dear me. You have it bad.

    I never sought to censor this story.
    I added context. And I poured scorn on using it as a political football

    ————————————————————–

    “….Maybe you need to go off and protect the dear leader on another thread….”

    It was never about “protecting a dear leader..It was about not using rape as a political football.( How many times)

    And, even If I had such an agenda,. Stories on slugger get about 750 hits these days..And I am sure I am responsible for between 5 and 10 of those hits.
    So the question is.
    Who is reading the blog anyway? LMAO.
    I posted what I did to suit myself and to stop the horrible spectacle of Unionists crowing.

    As Gerry Adams himself said, when questioned about something Mick Fealty wrote.
    “who is Mick Fealty?”
    It must be hard having a nemsis who has in turn never heard of him.( That HAS to hurt )

    So, there you go, proof if ever needed about the “influence” of this site.

    Re Comrade Stalin. I upvoted one of his comments myself BEFORE you wrote to me.
    So, bang goes your last retort.
    Sorry.

  • mickfealty

    That is the weak part of the documentary. But in case you’ve not seen it yet, here’s the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RldqBnTcmA4#t=29

    I’d be very interested in what you have to say after you’ve seen it?

  • mickfealty

    BTW, watch Mary Lou, of all the protagonists here I suspect she is by far the most vulnerable of anyone in SF (even Gerry) in this matter…

  • mickfealty

    I disagree. There is a very very serious issue of child protection and violence against women at stake here. Narrative is not how you say things are, it arises from what you do.

    The inertness of the north to the story and vibrant response of the south tells a story all of its own. That may a function of collective shame for letting things get this far.

    But this far it has certainly got. Made men should not get away with rape whether of children or young women, let alone have their escape facilitated under cover of corporate darkness.

  • $33309652

    “.The crux of your argument, though, is that the case is spurious..”
    =====================
    What?????????????

    How can you arrive at THAT conclusion.?
    That is a massive leap.
    And in the UK something like 20% of rapes reported to police result in a conviction that includes a Police Caution.
    Imagine that? a Bloody caution for Rape.

    My argument was on several levels.
    First it is the raw deal rape victims get. from the UK police.
    Second it was the Republican movement is been held up to a higher standard in “treatment”of victims.
    than the UK police .
    And third that Unionists are using it as a political football.
    At NO point have I claimed this case was spurious. I don’t see HOW you arrived at that.

  • Comrade Stalin

    At NO point have I claimed this case was spurious. I don’t see HOW you arrived at that.

    You seemed to be suggesting that the republicans in question had no case to answer having been acquitted by the courts.

    Two things are possible; either you believe Máiría’s story, or you think that the republicans involved are completely innocent and she’s making it all up. Which of those two is it ?

  • $33309652

    “You seemed to be suggesting that the republicans in question had no case to answer having been acquitted by the courts.”
    ==========================================
    Where have I mentioned courts?
    Where?
    That is an appalling comment to make based on what I posted.
    Show me how I “suggested” that when what I did was to post links to statistics on UK crime figures.
    You aren’t just taking a leap here..
    You are putting words into my mouth that I never said.
    Deal with the argument that I Did make.
    Which is Rape victims are treated extremely badly by the Uk police.
    And tell me why that will the massive resources that the UK police can bring to bear The Republican movement should be HELD to a Higher standard?
    =======================================
    I am not making any judgement on whom to believe. I wasn’t there.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Of course you’re making a judgement. You’re dissembling in an effort to take the focus away from the IRA’s efforts to cover up sexual abuse of a minor.

  • $33309652

    “Of course you’re making a judgement. “.
    ==========================================
    No I am Not…Not about the merits of this case.
    I am making judgements about the use of this case as a political football on this site and by certain commentators.
    NOT about Guilt or Innocence.
    You are WELL OFF the reservation
    Where do you get off by saying that?
    Based on the fact that what I did was talk about the case in general and NOT in Specifics.

    Your comment is outrageous in extremis.

    If I was to take your argument, that you have made to me.
    and transfer that onto the statistic I gave to you about 1-in-9 rape cases been dropped by the UK police.
    It is like you accusing me of saying the UK police were right to drop those cases.
    That is what your argument sounds like.
    And I am NOT saying that.
    What I am saying is that that 1-in-9 written off Rape crimes is SHOCKING compared to the 1-in-33 Burgarly cases.
    You CANNOT assume that I don’t regard those 1-in-9 as NOT been rapes.
    So how can you make statements like that I am making judgements,
    Cop yourself on.
    I gave you an upvote. It has gone to your head.

  • Comrade Stalin

    And I am sure I am responsible for between 5 and 10 of those hits.

    Delusions of grandeur.

  • $33309652

    And yet in the UK they give out cautions for Rape.
    Makes you think doesn’t it?
    Eh Mick.
    You never covered that though did you Mick.
    Or the shocking treatment of uK police services which made National news in the so called UK

  • Comrade Stalin

    Your comment is outrageous in extremis.

    Dry your eyes.

    Just to recap, we are talking about the IRA covering up the sexual abuse of a minor. Comparing the IRA’s “investigation” (which it wasn’t – it was a damage limitation activity designed to cause the victim to back off and protect one of their volunteers) to the process of police investigation, imperfect as they are, is nothing more than a dissembling effort.

    Why point out the poor clearup rate of rape crime in general in the context of a discussion about the IRA’s “investigation” for any reason other than to suggest that there was nothing untoward about the IRA’s result ? At one point above you referred to the length of time the IRA spent investigating the issue, implying that their investigation was somehow superior to what the police usually manage, and as if the length of time is a measure of the quality of the investigation.

    If these aren’t the messages you’re trying to send out then I suggest you think a bit more carefully before you start typing. As from where I’m sitting it sounds like you’re trying to defend the Provos and what they did here.

  • Comrade Stalin

    why would a Northern Ireland political website spend time talking about domestic criminality elsewhere in the UK ? You’re dissembling – again. This is the definition of whataboutery.

  • $33309652

    “Why point out the poor clearup rate of rape crime in general in the context of a discussion about the IRA’s “investigation”

    ===========================

    Clear up???

    Are you for real????? Did you NOT read my links.

    Let me explain it to you in order to

    “clear up” a crime it must be first investigated.

    And the Statistic means that on average 1-in 9 aren’t investigated.

    This seems LOST on you.

    The UK police are NOT investigatiing as many as 1-in-3 rape cases in some areas.

    1-in 5 in London, Manchester and Birmingham.

    Clear up?

    pffftttttttt.

    They are written off..Is that a “clear up”?

    in your book.

    BTW read this.

    Figures also indicated that there were about 10,000 recorded rapes of adults in England and Wales in the 12 months to March 2013, from which only 18 percent led to a sanction detection, where an offender was charged or cautioned for the offence.

    Director of the Centre for Crime Prevention Peter Cuthbertson said, “It’s extremely worrying how many of the most serious offences aren’t recorded properly.”

    The charity Rape Crisis also raised concerns over the high levels of “no-criming” and the huge disparities in statistics between different police forces.

    An earlier report by Solicitor General Oliver Heald in response to a parliamentary question revealed that British police had sent only 5,404 rape cases out of the 17,061 reports they received in 2012-13 to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).

  • $33309652

    Is not the 6 Counties ion the Uk?
    Does Slugger NOT have an England Page?
    Are Home Office statisics NOT National news?
    Are you shocked by the links about as many as 1-in-3 rapes been written off by police?
    Don’t you want to be informed?
    If the Republican movement is been held to a higher standard on Unionist Slugger site.
    Is that NOT a contradiction?
    Many questions worth considering I think.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Let me explain it to you in order to

    “clear up” a crime it must be first investigated.

    And the Statistic means that on average 1-in 9 aren’t investigated.

    No, you’re wrong. For there to be a poor clearup rate, crimes do not have to be investigated.

    I still don’t understand why we are talking about rape crime statistics in the UK in the middle of a discussion about the IRA covering up sexual abuse of a minor. I assume once you’ve got done with your copious copy/pasting from places you’ve googled, you’ll explain this. Because, as I said, it all looks like whataboutery with the objective of defending the IRA to me.

  • mickfealty

    How’s “Don’t you be complaining about my dirty feet” as an opening gambit from the presiding judge to the defendant?

    http://goo.gl/qiplsM (19 mins in).

  • $33309652

    So your Ok morally with bombing Civilians in Afghanastan?
    Nice to now.
    25 airstrikes on a bazaar is A-OKayy with you is it?
    Is that not terrorism????????
    For what it’s worth. I think it is.
    Why should I put up with English /Unionist condescension with the so called UK having such a record?

    And BTW the orignal poster mention “murder gangs”
    Ergo anything is fair game.
    Take it up with Banshee.

  • $33309652

    I have said it 3 or 4 times already.
    But for slow learners.
    I shall say it again.
    Why is the Republican Movement been held to a higher standard than the Uk police forces?
    Now haven’t i wrote that before????????????????????

  • $33309652

    “No, you’re wrong. For there to be a poor clearup rate, crimes do not have to be investigated.”
    You may want to explain that one to me.
    Crimes are committed. Detected/ or not detected .
    reported and investigated.
    The clear up rate is a measure of crimes reported/ investigated against crimes which are resolved. whether they are resolved by a caution, restorative justice or court etc.

  • $33309652

    “And I am sure I am responsible for between 5 and 10 of those hits.

    Delusions of grandeur.2

    =====================================
    LMAO. it is just your night for getting the wrong end of the stick.
    How does the fact that I admitted to clicking on the same article between 5 and 10 times translate into delusions of grandeur.
    That is what i meant by me saying I am responsible for making those hits.

    You thought That I meant that other people were clicking to read my comments?????????
    LOL..Not what I meant..At all..Sorry.
    The way I figure it is If the same person opens the same article 5 times he has generated 5 views.
    So Lets say Slugger says a story has 100 hits and I opened that 5 times.
    Than I am responsible for 5 of those hits.

  • USA

    Firstly, Maria Cahill seems very credible to me. Secondly, given the lack of trust in State agencies at the time, if allegations of this kind are made about an IRA member, an IRA investigation was always on the cards . The subsequent IRA “investigation” was obviously flawed, primarily because of the effect it had on the young girl Maria Cahill. I think much of the commentary and actions of the RM surrounding the court case probably had it’s primary goal as the protection of the named IRA investigators. Had the PPS focused on the child abuse charges against Morris, and not tied in the IRA membership charges against the 3 “investigators”, then McCullough may not have showed up in court as a defense witness. Simply put, by beating the first charge, the latter charges (IRA membership) fell apart and the 3 investigators walk from court. However, I understand that the PPS cannot have information on membership of “illegal” organizations and not proceed with charges. It’ just another big mess with plenty of blame to go around and a lovely young girls life badly impacted.

    On a side note, it was nice to see her aunt Eilis O’Hanlon again. It’s been 30 years, I would not have recognized her. I still remember how pretty she looked the last day we spoke, as teenagers in the rain outside Belfast city hall.

  • USA

    Point noted and accepted Bellefast. The whole thing is a mess. It would seem she was a victim of Morris, but the conflict helped create the environment where she could be victimized.

  • mickfealty

    Here’s the most focused thing I’ve done on the business of violence and how it can be prevented. Interruption by other men and women is the key, apparently: http://goo.gl/Zel1j.

    Also covered the Rochdale stuff, where secrecy facilitated the persecution of victims even after the court proceedings.

  • babyface finlayson

    How about holding the republican movement to the same standard then?
    What was their clear up rate? How was it measured?
    Bodies in bogs? Or abusers relocated to Donegal?
    What is your opinion of the process used? A young woman brought to a room to face her alleged abuser along with other men from the same organisation. Who spoke on her behalf?
    Is body language a reliable method of determining guilt?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Some caution is required when interpreting the IRA’s description of events. The word “investigation”, like a lot of other words in the republican lexicon, is a euphemism. The IRA were not investigating to establish the facts as to whether or not a crime took place (which is essentially what the word means in a criminal justice context), but were investigating why stories were being circulated about one of their “volunteers” with the objective of getting the stories shut down and limiting the damage to the reputation of their organization.

    Had the PPS focused on the child abuse charges against Morris, and not tied in the IRA membership charges against the 3 “investigators”,

    I believe either Máiría, or someone else close to the facts of her case, has explained elsewhere (although it probably went under the radar) that the IRA membership charges were a part of the overall case constructed by the PPS. It was necessary to establish in court that these individuals were IRA members in order to show that Máiría was in fear of her life if she reported the attacks to the authorities. This makes sense as naturally the court will have to try to establish why the attacks went unreported to eliminate the possibility that the accusations are spurious.

    Then again, there is a suggestion that the PPS was subject to political interference. Mark Durkan says that the then Secretary of State was gravely concerned about the trouble Padraig Wilson found himself in, and this is in itself revealing.

    However, I understand that the PPS cannot have information on membership of “illegal” organizations and not proceed with charges.

    The PPS in Northern Ireland is quite an opaque organization. Newton Emerson wrote an insightful article about this some time ago. It applies a number of tests to any given case to decide whether or not to pursue it through the courts, and a great many cases fall short. The tests involve the standard of evidence, precedents, costs of taking the action and so on (ie attempting to measure the likelihood of the prosecution being successful and therefore justifying public money) but also the public interest; the PPS can decide not to pursue what would otherwise be an open-and-shut matter on the grounds that it is not in the public interest to do so.

    These are decisions that are made behind closed doors and for which the PPS is essentially unaccountable. Sometimes they have been very controversial. The PPS very nearly dropped the prosecution into the murderers of Thomas Devlin, for example (they relented following pressure from the parents, and later appointed a top flight criminal barrister to prosecute the case to a successful conclusion).

    So it’s not quite the case that if a file lands on the desks over at the PPS that it must push it to a conclusion. Many times they choose not to do so, and a lot of the time we are not really allowed to understand why.

  • NMS

    Mick, the silence of the SF councillors in her constituency deafening @EmmaMurphySF @sweetims. Either the sofware engineer has failed to fit the new programme card or they are genuinely shocked.

  • $33309652

    All good questions Babyface.
    But here are some worth thinking about.
    Firstly you have already accepted my point about the shoddy treatment of rape victims in the so called UK.I mean the idea that police forces are using cautions against sex offenders is unreal. imho.
    Now in questions of economics .
    We are told that:
    The Uk is the World’s 6 th economy.
    A member of the G8
    A member of the UN security Council.
    A member of the EU.
    A “progressive European democracy”.
    etc.
    etc.
    NOW with ALL these resources and the £6 Billion they spent on aircraft carriers with no planes.
    How come their police forces are failing their citizens so badly when it comes to the most heinous crimes of all sex offences?
    Is that not something of a scandal? I mean cations for rape.
    W.T.H. is THAT about?
    Did the IRA have the resources of Uk police forces?
    Fish goes rotting from the head on down. Westminster doesn’t give a hoot for protecting it’s own citizens it seems to me. Maybe it’s just too darn expensive, I suppose.
    There is a scandal here alright. No doubt about it.

  • babyface finlayson

    gunter
    Good questions, you might like to try answering?
    You seem to be throwing every obfuscation you can think of at the issue in hand.
    Why not focus in the topic.
    Maybe you could do piece for Mick about rape crime in the UK.

  • $33309652

    Well what I have attempted o prove is just what a shoddy deal the citizens of the Uk and Ireland get from their states.
    We are NOT Scandavia which is on a total higher plain than us, in how to cherish their citizens. Maybe people will say Scandavia is too Politically Correct. Whatever.
    My point is the UK with the baby Peter Scandals with the police treatment of Rape victims with the Rochdale etc and the Irish Church State Scandals prove just how “cherished” we are by these States.
    So, to concentrate on one victim above all others is not enough.
    So, do the Irish continue to ape the Brits and provide Rubbish sub standard services for these forgotten victims. Or do we kick the Brits off our island and start apeing Scandavia.
    Either we take drastic steps and continue the hand wringing and finger pointing like good little West Brits.
    Or we Ditch Unionism. End the Orange and Green nonsense and become like Denmark.
    OfC this will take money aka Taxes to you and I.
    Are the public going to stop with the crocadile tears and Pay for it?
    Will they vote for it?
    I doubt it.
    All in all this doesn’t matter a hill of beans coz voters will return the same overlords and the State will continue to mince up the victims as new ones appear.
    Ofc the British state is far better at throwing one of it’s lackeys under a bus to show something needs to be done.. whereas the Irish don’t bother and protect their servants like the French State does for example. But that doesn’t make Britain a shining light.
    You, I or We want better than this.
    Than we need to wake up.
    Brits Out and Scandavia In. Or nothing will change.
    It’s common sense.
    Don’t believe me?
    Think I’m talking trash.
    Well the Canadians have given the Brits 2,000 names , credit card details and addresses of people who paid for child exploitation images.
    Do you see the Brits locking up and paying for justice for that 2,000?
    I certainly don’t. A few cases will be dealt with.
    Most will escape..Coz at the end of the day. The state doesn’t care.
    We are nothing to those people. Same as it ever was.

  • $33309652

    I have answered.
    My answer to your question was other questions.
    Designed to make you think.
    And what I wanted you to think .
    Was do the Brit State care about it’s victims.
    Or are they more interested in playing World Police? that’s my opinion.FWIW
    As I mentioned to Mick..The UK got from Canada 2,000 names and credit card details of it’s citizens who accessed Child nasty images.
    Do you think the Brit state will put those 2,000 in prison?
    I mean there has to be enough evidence there to do it.
    But c’mon 2,000 prison spaces..Do you know the cost of that?
    It simply WON’T happen.
    so, the state doesn’t care. it doesn’t act.
    So, Why is this one victim more worthy than all the rest?
    When you lot are done with your hand wringing will society be different?
    Will we become Scandavia?
    Like hell it will.
    You want to rise up?
    Rise up then.
    But do it right.
    No limp wristed, hand wringing finger pointing B.S.
    Kick the Brits out and let’s have Scandavia.
    But just remember..When the Tax bill comes
    No crying. 75% tax rate needed for this level of services.
    Coz this will cost MONEY and Lot’s of it.
    Let’s be having it.
    Let’s put it all on the table.
    Or is it just a political exercise designed to demonize the Republican movement.
    I know what I want.
    I want to be Denmark. Not West Britain.
    I want all victims spoken up for. I want the whole state appartus in the dock.
    I want those 2,000 named by Canada either in prison or treatment.
    Whose going pay taxes though.

  • babyface finlayson

    Gunter
    If you don’t focus on the subject it is very hard to have a meaningful discussion.
    It’s almost as if you wanted to distract us from this story!

  • barnshee

    “What was Tony Blair then?”

    A proponent of porkies a familiar of toerags (Ian, Marty Gerry…) A Politician who would have sold his granny for power now probably the most despised FORMER politican in the world- mind you there are a few in the ” waiting room ” who are at least his equal

    Ah sure those bombs were never meant to flatten the bazaar (blow up the Abercorn, Enniskillen) – it was just a mistake

  • $33309652

    You can say that. If you like.
    I was writing to make a serious point.
    I have done my bit. If you want to be led by the nose by the mainstream media and just read what scandals they want you to read about.
    Be my guest.
    But, really ; after all I wrote don’t you think it’s bizarre that this scandal is the one that is getting written about? And all the other stories are ignored?
    I mean Police cautions for rape. Is that a sufficent tariff for Rape. Really?
    Tell me why that is “acceptable” but this story and the treatment this girl received is not.

  • Robin Keogh

    Looks like u were wrong

  • Robin Keogh

    Where is the evidence that SF gas been “discovered” covering up for abuse. As far as I am aware, at the moment its an allegation and a pretty flimsy one at that. Clearly for you at least proof is not required where SF in concerned; an sllegation is enuff and lets wheel out the executioner. Pretty poor my friend.

  • $33309652

    If you want to talk bombs and ” terrorists.”
    You heard the expression the “terrorists ” are the ones with the small bombs.
    I am positive you grasp the meaning of that. i.e the State are the worst killers., basically.
    So, you tell me where it all ends?
    Why is Tony Blair some sort of aboration and not just business as usual for British politics?
    Do you think the Tories wouldn’t have gone to Basra or Afghanastion following His Masters’ Voice aka the USA? Would Michael Howard or whomever would have done it different?
    Doubt it.
    So, How is the Brit state better than the IRA?
    Why should I put my faith in your “murder gangs” and not my own.
    After all..All the IRA wanted was their own Country.
    Or do you think your £10 Billion or whatever buys you a “get out of jail” or more accurately for British state killers a “never been in jail no intention of ever going there” free card. Coz the Paras haven’t gone to Jail
    Any Brit soldier that ever went to jail got reinstated in his unit..and back pay for “time” served. Such as Lee Clegg.
    And you dare complain about injustice.
    Where does it end?
    From my point of view. The British never are right, never will be right in Ireland.
    And the British have drawn a horse and carraige through all their rules when it became inconvenient or the rules became an obstruction to their objectives.
    And yet here you are..Still thinking that the rule book somehow applies. And that it makes you different or better or whatever you think this “rule book” that you both wrote and broke confers upon you.( you been the British State- We had that one out already!!!!!!!!)
    I believe it was some Irish politician who made a joke about making a phone call to a British Foreign office and got thru to the voicemail.
    The recorded announcement went like ” we are sorry not to be able to take your call. please leave your message after the High Moral Tone.”
    Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.

  • babyface finlayson

    gunter
    You are not obliged to comment if the topic is not of interest to you.
    There is probably an article on the comment section in the guardian on the issue you want to talk about.

    On this blog this story about Mairia Cahill is what we are discussing today.

    Any thoughts about it at all? Focus!

  • $33309652

    Why are you refusing to accept that Rape Victims get a sordid ordeal?
    And how do you plan on changing it?
    And,After how many scandals?
    I have lived thru many scandals . Beef Tribunals, Matrix Churchill arms dealing to Iraq in the 1980’s.
    Bae Arms Bribery to Saudi Arabia. Irish church scandals. Ansbacher Accounts. county planning, etc.etc.
    You know what they all have in common?
    They all blow over.
    Same as this one will. And the one after that.
    Now, what use is it?
    Once the Zombies get their gore, they will be off waiting for their next fix.
    My question. Why should that be?

  • $33309652

    “…On this blog this story about Mairia Cahill is what we are discussing today.
    Any thoughts about it at all? Focus!…”
    =======================================
    Right on.
    Ok. You asked me How the IRA should have dealt with this.
    Excellent. I have a Slugger O Toole solution to a Slugger O Toole problem
    The IRA should have had a courts Martial for any volunteer alleged to have committed a heinous crime.
    If found guilty, said volunteer should have been dismissed and sent to coventry.
    The End.
    Or not quite, the end.
    You see Coventry is a bad idea I think in Manchester 1 -n 3 Rapes are dismissed as “non Crimes”.
    So ergo , our sexual deviant should have been sent there. Where he would practia
    cally get away with it.
    On the downside for slugger readers they wouldn’t be able to play political football with this case and play the “get Sinn Fein card”.
    Slugger Readers don’t want to be bothered by the failure of Uk police forces.
    Well then they can’t complain if the Rapo is allowed to make more victims in England.
    Can they?
    Their moral conscience is clean.
    Everybody wins. Oh except the Victims in England. But who cares right. That’s NOT a subject for Slugger O Toole. Right?
    Am I Now on message?
    on second thoughts maybe he could have been sent to Sheffield.
    If he was good at kicking a pig’s bladder he could partner up with Ched Evans.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Why is the Republican Movement been held to a higher standard than the Uk police forces?

    This is simply “why are you concerned about the republican movement covering up rape allegations ?” rephrased as a loaded question.

  • $33309652

    “Why is the Republican Movement been held to a higher standard than the Uk police forces?
    This is simply “why are you concerned about the republican movement covering up rape allegations ?” rephrased as a loaded question.”
    ===============================================
    And this is simply not answering the point.
    I answered all your questions last night.
    And I set you straight when you tried to tell me what I wrote. and what the “crux” was.
    But you don’t want to engage.
    You are annoyed that I spoiled your buzz..by making you feel guilty about the appalling treatment UK victims get from the UK police.
    So, it’s hard to shock your “audience” when the UK police record is atrocious.
    That wasn’t part of the plan was it?
    The political football isn’t as buoyant as you need it to be.
    And Sluggers silence over the Home Office reports about UK rapes puts a hole in your moral crusade.
    Don’t you feel dirty about using this case for you and Sluggers agenda?
    I guess not. Its how you lot roll isn’t it?

  • Guest

    The IRA couldn’t even get to grips with an alleged rape concerning one of their own, a naive teenage ideologue, is it any wonder they didn’t win the ‘war’ and Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams definitely has narcissistic personality disorder and unfortunately it takes the Republic to have had over 7 years of austerity to give people like him a serious look in, sad man and sad state of affairs the republic has gotten itself into, whenever Sinn Fein are relatively buoyant in the polls there. Perhaps it’s no coincidence that there’s appears to be a correlation between misery and suffering of people and a Sinn Fein spokesperson at hand to relate it all.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I don’t have a buzz, I am not annoyed, nor do I “roll”. I don’t have a moral crusade, or an agenda.

    It is as simple as this. We are discussing the IRA covering up sexual abuse allegations. You are interjecting with a completely spurious argument about how that the authorities are generally pretty poor at investigating rape in an effort to deflect from this discussion. Apparently you think this means that we should not be discussing the IRA rape coverups. I disagree, and going by the media coverage, so does everyone else. Deal with it, or not – it is not really my problem.

  • barnshee

    “After all..All the IRA wanted was their own Country.”

    After all all the UVF wanted was there own country

    After all all the UDA wanted was their own country

    etc

    etc

    “Any Brit soldier that ever went to jail got reinstated in his unit..and back pay for “time” served. Such as Lee Clegg.”

    And quite rightly –check the facts a car refused to stop at a check point in an area where state forces were regularly attacked and was fired own.

    Turned out to be a stolen car– death for car theft- probably a bit draconian. -tho many with cars stolen in Belfast migh thimk not
    Clegg a victim of political expediency was finally cleared

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Clegg

  • $33309652

    Shoot your own jotriders with your own troops in your own “mainland”

    I couldn’t give a Monkeys.

    But tell me What excuse will you offer for Majella O Hare.

    a 12 year old murdered by the Paras on her way to church.

    And Lord Justice Gibson , the auld phony put the FIX in with the Brits.

    Your conscience clear on that one?

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-ohare

    The UDA and UVF have an island called Brit-land ruled from Londinistan. They have their own Country.
    BTW. Why wasn’t Cleggy Boy put thru the conveyor belt Diplock Court “justice ” system that the Brits must be Oh so proud of?

  • mickfealty

    Well, it’s not all over yet. Hard to say that’s she’s not damaged as the leader of a new generation. Her capacity to take the party in a radically different direction from Adams is deeply compromised.