Not British, Brutish: @brianjohnspencr guesting on the @LADFLEG blog

In a bit of departure, the Loyalists Against Democracy blog has a guest post from Brian John Spencer (regularly of this parish). Entitled, ‘They are Not British, They’re Brutish‘ and against the backdrop of the increasingly cartoonish behaviour of loyalisms curated extreme, he rages against what he variously calls ‘civilised Northern Ireland’, ‘soft-bellied multiculturalists’  and ‘ever-indulgent middle-highbrows’ and suggests they all need to wake up. He even converges upon Chris’ argument that Unionism needs to adopt the kind of leadership shown by Martin McGuinness, but we’ll not go there.

Instead, here is a sample below, but, as ever, read the whole thing….

When you try to run communities on isolation, suspicion and a rejection of modernity, everything grinds to a halt.

When that happens, the failed community isn’t going to blame the failure on itself. No. They’ll say it’s the neglect of others and a conspiracy against their culture. Then they’ll want to project violence and brutalism outward. But we can’t be indifferent about that. We can’t be indifferent about rogue communities and rogue ideas and rogue concepts. 
All the burbling and babbling of police brutality and civil rights oppression is abject nonsense and an offence to modernity and the people who’ve brought us here. Loyalism is not the product of unemployment, but the creators of it. Loyalists are not the suppressed but the suppressors of modernity.

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  • between the bridges

    ‘read the whole thing’… per JoN’s reading recommendations can i also suggest Animal Farm…

  • Greenflag

    Full marks to Mr Spencer for stating the obvious . Next he’ll tell us that Unionist political leadership is gutless and braindead . He may be unaware that the latter sad facts are already accepted by the political cognoscenti of the rest of Ireland , the UK and the USA and any other parts of the world that tune in to the gobshittery of Loyalism’s spoiled brats 🙁

    Mr Robinson continues to give comfort to the knuckle draggers according to this report .When is he going to resign ?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24225248

  • Zig70

    Robbo’s assertion that you can be criticized for selling land to catholics seems to be ignored by the media. I’m appalled and he should be held to account for it.
    I saw the protest on Saturday and the way the ordinary shoppers looked at them. Almost like watching a film set, unreal quality to it.

  • ayeYerMa

    No idea who brianjohnspencer is but the fact he is posting on an UltraTaig pure hate site tells us everything we need to know about him.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    “selling land to catholics” I thought Robinson said “republicans” did he mentioned roman catholics???

  • Neil

    He’s a Unionist AYM. Just not one that constantly refers to taigs as rats, like the people LAD lampoon. I can see how that window into extreme Loyalism may rankle but perhaps instead of shooting the messenger as per you’d be better directing your ire at your hate filled contemporaries who spray their ignorance, stupidity and sectarianism over Facebook like diarrhoea.

  • Comrade Stalin

    LAD doesn’t strike me as nationalist in its outlook at all. They’re just people sick and tired of being spoken for by idiots.

  • John Ó Néill

    Greenflag – to be fair to Robinson, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland was (may well still be) the postal address for the Ulster Land and Property Company which was set up to stop property falling into ‘nationalists hands’.
    The people LADFleg parodies are just at the end of a spectrum, they don’t exist in a vacuum.

  • John Ó Néill

    Comrade Stalin – I imagine it sources material from people who are able to comfortably hide in plain sight on Facebook etc. They won’t have a surname like Ó Néill, pictures of Parkhead, tricolours or family/friends with suspiciously Catholic sounding names or they’d be rumbled pretty quickly.

  • FDM

    ayeYerMa 24 September 2013 at 7:45 pm

    “UltraTaig”

    Yip that’s offensive.

    I think AYM got lost after “solipsism” and got so angry he looked at his own navel and got angry.

    ArdoyneUnionist 24 September 2013 at 7:50 pm

    “selling land to catholics” I thought Robinson said “republicans” did he mentioned roman catholics???”

    AU we have been listening to Unionist-speak for more years than we care to remember. We know what you mean and when you mean it.

    I think BJS’s contribution to the LAD blog hits the nail. My only criticism would be to say there are few examples to the aspirational type of Britishness he says that the fleggers are so distant from. From my perspective I see the same unnecessary brutishness/Britishness in killing thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan. Giving some comfort blanket of legitimacy by saying they are in uniform and following government orders doesn’t cut it of me. It is still barbarity on a level the fleggers can only aspire to.

  • DC

    “LAD doesn’t strike me as nationalist in its outlook at all.”

    Its outlook or output doesn’t have to be nationalist, being anti-loyalist with depictions of loyalists as untermenschen will suffice and keep a mainly nationalist, middleclass, readership v content along with certain tediously smug middle class unionists.

  • FDM

    DC 24 September 2013 at 9:16 pm

    “along with certain tediously smug middle class unionists.”

    Ironic then DC when those same content, smug, middle class unionists are a cert for your vote next time out.

    They lead you around by the nose, march you up to the top of the hill, where you get criminal records and then have to walk down on your own in your bare feet to the bottom to mow their lawns whilst they watch on drinking Pimms and laughing at the untermensch. Will you ever learn?

  • ayeYerMa

    Never said it was necessarily exclusively “nationalist” and hence my use of ambiguous terminology. Certainly is a hate site motivated by an extreme underlying hatred of anything unashamedly Prod/Unionist/Loyalist/Ulster Scot. No other motivation would result in that amount of time spent in Photoshop to generate that level of relentless hate.

    Any Protestant/”Unionist” posting on it certainly has no interest for the basic survival of their own ethnicity, heritage or civil liberties. Certainly must be a naive middle class type who has developed a misplaced sense of hatred for anyone with principles, or for those peasants whose interests don’t simply revolve around their love of money or spending their time hob-nobbing around wine and cheese parties to show off how wonderful they are.

    PS: I’m glad you are “offended” FDM, but I’m afraid there is no better word to describe it. Every single one of your posts “offends” me.

  • ayeYerMa

    … oops DC posted what I was thinking while I was composing!

  • FDM

    ayeYerMa 24 September 2013 at 9:26 pm

    That post by AYM underlines the very core of what BJS and the LAD people are focussing upon.

    It is a very confused post.

    You talk about ethnicity? What in the wide, wide world of sport are you talking about? I think about 6 to 7000 got off the plantation boat from Scotland. There would obviously now be at least 1,000,000 [obviously more] who owe some of their genetics to those people. Now if you are saying that those million(s) are the product of inter-breeding ONLY then boy, that is one small gene pool and you allude to some not very nice outcomes (involving cousins, get the picture?), which only you seem to imply. More obviously we are all collectively in this region the result of [god forgive me] inter-breeding from a much wider gene pool. Hence thankfully many of us can deal with difficult things like Continuum Mechanics and not concentrate on washing cars for a living.

    I would welcome your treatise on how your civil liberties are somehow less than mine.

    It seems ironic that you condemn the middle class and their “love of money” when the major reason that unionists provide for maintenance of the union is… the money.

    “Every single one of your posts “offends” me.”

    So be it.

  • Comrade Stalin

    John,

    That is my feeling too. I think they’re a bunch of middle class university-educated types who are broadly apolitical and can’t stand the bullshit.

    Republicans are good at propaganda but they’re not so good as to be able to convincingly disguise themselves.

    I find LAD very encouraging. I hope that it encourages unionists to stop and think about the kind of mentality that they are upholding as something that needs to be supported. Mainstream politicians elsewhere in the UK run a mile from their extremist views – mainstream politicians here embrace them and that needs to change.

  • Schilojin

    Lad is one of my favourite facebook pages – cutting edge – yes , close to the knuckle – yes. hate site – definitely not. Admittedly you get the odd moron posting bile, but the majority of posters are not. ‘A middle class , university-educated type site’ – what exactly does that mean. I went to university from a single parent family (father a low-middle ranking civil servant). However my literacy skills and sense of humour and decency/morality/bias were well developed before then. Some posters seem to suggest if you are lower/working class you have a right to absolve yourself of certain societal norms – frankly an insult to those classes. Lad simply exposes the bankrupt thinking of many in unionism and loyalism. I wish to god there was a ‘unionist/loyalist’ counterpart to LAD – I would enjoy that just as much!

    I am a political – I like to hear people talk sense not one – sided farce. I am irish with a northern ireland/ulster/north of ireland background (call it what you will). My culture as most people from these parts is a mix of Irish and British and I am totally comfortable with both.

  • Philosoraptor

    As one of the barely out of university middle class types that I think makes up the bulk of LADs following. I would like to clarify that there really isn’t really anything political about LAD.

    Loyalists are currently acting crazier than Republicans. That’s not to say Republicans aren’t kooks, they certainly are, they are just quite boring kooks (aside from Gerry Adam’s twitter). When republicans start acting as nutty as loyalist they will get their own satirical websites too.

  • Schilojin

    I love British music, radio, television, sports, people but when it comes to British identity in this part of the isles it invariably involves flags and marches. This culture that is being eroded I just don’t get it – to me there is nothing uplifting or inclusive about it – it seems thuggish, violent and intimidatory – is there any chance of giving the youth something like this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6__HssHW8&list=PLje-_jY-9N3vuYkOtogC1LKEhPV2iFyjL&index=1

    but with a loyalist/unionist background/narrative?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Schilojin, no offence intended, we are much the same.

    Philosoraptor, the difference with republicans is that even the ones who aren’t very intelligent tend to shut up and wait for someone to tell them what to say or do. They tend to let their leaders do the talking for them. They keep their disputes internal.

    For loyalism, letting it all hang out no matter how stupid it is, and shooting yourself in the foot in the process, is integral to the whole thing. They refuse to be led and follow their own incorrect instincts even when it runs against their interests. On one level they refuse to be told what to do by leaders, on the other they allow themselves to be held in thrall by blood and thunder orators. A hard bunch to get the measure of.

    As such I doubt there can ever be a republican LAD.

  • DC

    “As one of the barely out of university middle class types that I think makes up the bulk of LADs following. I would like to clarify that there really isn’t really anything political about LAD.”

    hmmmmmmmmmmmm

  • aquifer

    “an extreme underlying hatred of anything unashamedly Prod/Unionist/Loyalist/Ulster Scot.”

    Na I just like to laugh at funny stuff.

    I think of it as compensation for having roads blocked, jobs lost, and the police diverted from chasing extortionists.

    The Fleg fraternity are not very British at all, just ask any Brit.

    Was it the Provos that drove them to it? Or did they just listen to Paisley too much?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    AYM

    You’ve never heard of him?

    Well, he’s the talented chappie who occasionally bequeaths Slugger with drawings for the caption competition and other posts.

    With regards to L.A,D and your baffling insinuation that it is ” is a hate site motivated by an extreme underlying hatred of anything unashamedly Prod/Unionist/Loyalist/Ulster Scot” could you then clear a few things up for daft little me?

    In your mind is there any difference between:

    a/ a respectful sober Orangeman parading a non-contentious route to his church vs a drunken Rangers top clad angry bandsman fluting offensive tunes as hard as he can*?

    b/ Some one respecting the right to worship of people of another religion vs plastering on facebook when ‘the scum’ are engaging in an act of open air worship*?

    c/ Someone paying due respect to the flag of their country vs someone who wraps said flag around their waist whilst hurling abuse/projectiles at a police force of that country*?

    If there are differences then please relate them as such and note that all points marked in an asterisk come in for ‘the treatment’ on L.A.D.

    The former points do not.

    Ask yourself then why do the former escape scrutiny and the latter come in for scorn and ridicule and then reconcile that with your assertion that it is a “hate site motivated by an extreme underlying hatred of….” as to justify that assertion then ALL elements of Loyalist, Unionist, Protestant and Ulster-Scots culture would come in for ridicule, not just the ones that involve rangers shirts, buckfast and civil disobedience.

    If you could also do it without resorting to man-playing that would be nice/welcome/unexpected/refreshing.

  • märsta

    Am Ghobsmacht

    Nail.Hit.On.Head.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I think of it as compensation for having roads blocked, jobs lost, and the police diverted from chasing extortionists.

    This.

  • DoppiaVu

    John – excellent post, managed to elicit a nice bit of mopery from both sides here.

    AYM et al: sadly, the LADFLEG blog is too close to the truth of how some misguided people seek to defend the union. John and Chris (in various other blogs), are almost correct in saying that this exposes a lack of leadership within unionism. It’s not actually a lack of leadership; it’s a leadership which is focussed on the wrong objectives. The sad reality (for unionism) is that Robbo & the DUP are solely focussed upon gaining supremacy within the unionist/loyalist tribe, not on promoting the unionist cause generally.

    …which neatly links us to…

    Various republicans: you all know Robbo’s move was simply out-flanking Allister, for the reasons I mentioned above. Spare us the faux-righteous indignation, it’s getting tiresome.

  • FDM

    DoppiaVu 25 September 2013 at 8:05 am

    Various republicans: you all know Robbo’s move was simply out-flanking Allister, for the reasons I mentioned above. Spare us the faux-righteous indignation, it’s getting tiresome.
    ——————————

    Being sectarian to show that you are more sectarian than the other guy, in the 3rd millenium AD.

    How enlightened.

    “Its OUR WEE COUNTRY and its NOT FOR SALE to themmuns!”

    Got it Peter. Check. [But not your box ;)]

  • Greenflag

    @ john o’neill,

    The people LADFleg parodies are just at the end of a spectrum, they don’t exist in a vacuum.

    Thats been obvious for a long time .As for outflanking Allister in who detests Reepublicans/Nationalists/Catholics/Fenians /Taigs the most ? Perhaps it’s a heavily disguised outreach program to meet the needs of all those ‘unionist ‘ Catholics who are not keen on Allister.It sounds like a typical Unionist strategy on how to win friends if you haven’t any and how to influence brain dead fleggers that you are on their side even though you don’t have the guts to say so .

    So much for power sharing .Anywhere else in Britain or Ireland such a reported comment would have prompted resignation.

    But as we all know NI is different :

  • BifterGreenthumb

    I agree with pretty much everything in the LAD article other than the idea that “soft-bellied multiculturalists [are] scared to say anything”. Since the flag protests me and my cross community, multiculturalist friends have done nothing but rant about the brutishness of loyalism and the moral failure of political unionism to respond to loyalist paranoia and violence. But what can we do other than vote for parties other then the sectarian mainstream parties?

    Also think “Loyalism is not the product of unemployment, but the creators of it.” is incorrect. while the flag protests and orange riots have obviously had a negative impact on the economy to say that loyalism is responsible for our economic woes at a time of global financial meltdown is ridiculous. All this “our culture, our heritage” stuff is happening all over europe. look at the Golden Dawn in Greece or the EDL in England. Its an irrational response to austerity not the cause of it.

    “Unionism needs to do a McGuinness and reproach the boondocks and call them out for what they are: traitors to Britain. But if they cant do it they must take responsibility for not calling to book the jackboots on the ground. Otherwise political unionism will stand as apologists for thuggery and the real traitors to Britain.”

    This sums up the situation regarding political unionism and loyalism perfectly. If you want to maintain the union with Britain the best way to do that is create a peaceful and prosperous NI where people feel that they can live their lives and earn a living and provide for their families in peace. While the assembly doesnt have that much control over the economy they can help remove some obstacles such as sectarianism. A non-sectarian NI is the best way to secure the union. Every loyalist bigot who throws a brick at a cop or screams “taig” at a nationalist and every unionist politicain that defends them is a traitor to the people of NI, a traitor to the Union and a traitor to the UK.

    They are not British and they are not loyal… they are very naughty boys.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Over on “They’re Not British, They’re Brutish” Brian John Spencer quotes:

    “Visit Belfast received complaints from tourists who talked of “an intimidatory atmosphere” and “louts roaming around drunk”.”

    But this is all of a piece with the “intimidatory atmosphere” any citizen encounters from the “louts roaming around drunk” with power up on the Hill when you question their arbitary rule by decree decisions over isues such as planning. When the example is offered from the top, is it any surprise when you get an “I’ll do what I want and F**K you” echo from the lumpenproleteriot down on the streets. The brutalism beginswith our masters.

  • Delphin

    Very naughty boys (and girls) indeed. They need to go to their nearest evangelical church every Sunday. This would make them proper protestants with fire in their bellies and the lord in their hearts. The boys could then become estate agents dealing in worthless slivers of land, and the girls get to wear big hats and go out with butcher’s boys.

  • Cric

    LAD tried to go all cross community with opening Flipside but the material quickly ran dry – for some reason there seems to be a lot more laughable mentalness emanating from the Loyalist side these days – the likes of the Civil Rights camp at Twaddell barely even needs parodying, it’s a parody of itself – and Willie Frazer and Jamie Bryson are very outspoken, yet very clearly of lower than average intelligence. You don’t need to actually make up jokes… you just report what these people are actually saying.

    The equivalent mentalness on the Nationalist side would be dissident Republicanism, which has barely any support – and is maybe a bit too sinister to laugh at.

  • Greenflag

    Very naughty boy -that reminds me of the Monty Python classic updated version Belfast 2030 AD

    Ex-Flegger :

    (shaking begging bowl )

    ’10 euros please Alms for an old ex-flegger please yer honour”

    British tourist :

    “Did you say “ex-fleggger or ex leper”?

    Ex-Flegger : Ex Flegger I was a leper back then too but that was my own rich kinfolk wot called me that :(-16 years behind the flag I been and proud of it, sir.

    Brit Tourist : Well, what happened?

    Ex-Flegger : Oh, cured, sir.

    Brit Tourist : Cured?

    Ex-Flegger : Yes sir, bloody miracle, sir if you ask me .

    Brit Tourist : Who cured you?

    Ex-Flegger :Greenfleg did, sir. I was flegging along, minding everybody’s business but my own and all of a sudden, up he comes, and posts some sermon on sluggerotoole and cures me! One minute I’m a flegger with a mission in life next minute my nationality’s gone with this UI business vote going to themmuns ‘s as well sir . Not so much as a by-your-leave! “You’re cured, mate.”he said Bloody Fenian do-gooder.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    No Delphin, the boys could buy (or inherit) some land and live of the farm payments or sell a wee bit off for a house every ten years as a top-up, or claim one of those ESA grants for ruining hedges. No need for them to labour (and perjure their souls with lies) trying to sell grossly overpriced urban slivers. But the girls can still wear big pastel hats down to worship at the Lords Own Breeze Block House on the Lord’s Day.

    “Getting on in life”– the music of modernity!

  • foyle observer

    Distinct lack of contribution from this blogs usual ‘PUL’ Sinn Fein bashers – they wouldn’t happen to be embarrassed, would they?

  • Rory Carr

    Shackin’. So it ez.

  • It’s a Disgrase so it iz

  • Greenflag

    They either have no sense of humour or they don’t approve of my joke above . In retro this one might raise a more approving chuckle or two

    Two aliens from the Sirian star system beamed themselves down to Belfast in the middle of a flegging riot .

    The first alien said:

    ‘It seems that the dominant life form here have developed rock throwing as a weapon and also water cannons and batons ”

    The second alien asked:

    “Are they an emerging intelligence ?”

    “I don’t think so ” the first alien replied

    .”They have the weapons aimed at each other”

  • ayeYerMa

    FDM,

    I shouldn’t have to be acting the dictionary for you, but mine defines “ethnic” as “relating to a group of people having a common national or cultural tradition”.

    My point was on the LOVE of money and valuing nothing but shallow consumerism, not money per-se.

    I believe that there’s a greater basis for civil rights protests today than there was in the 60s, and something that I believe will only become more apparent with time. It would take pages for me to elaborate on that, but the degree of statutory discrimination in government, civil service, police and various quangos, as well as the lack of local democratic norms that has been on offer during the lifetimes of people alive today are no less than claims which got a lot more attention in the past.

  • ayeYerMa

    A Ghobshite,

    I do see the difference between such things (though what is “offensive” is entirely subjective). The point is that that is not what this hate site is mocking.

    It started in a response to flag protests — protests which whose organisers repeatedly called for to be peaceful, and protests which overwhelmingly have been peaceful (can’t find the figures again, but it was something like < 3% of protests that had any incident, and with hundreds of people at each only a tiny number of individuals). The same goes for Orange marches etc.

    This hate site has been posting numerous screengrabs from Facebook, not of loutishness, but of rather legitimate points and legitimate expressions of protest. The endless slur of "flegger" made against the 51% of the population who supported such protest or "kultur" etc. as well as then endless slurs of the untermensch etc. if made against any other group of people such a site would be deemed some variant of "racist" or "sectarian" if made against any other group. The hypocrisy is all the more given that in all likelihood the organisers of such a site (and no doubt a majority of its audience) vote SF/IRA and clearly have little problem with a 30 year offensive of shooting and bombing.

    Oh, and if that guy draws the cartoons on Slugger then I'm not surprised they're so terrible as never have particularly found any of them particularly pertinent. Doesn't really surprise me though, given that this site has essentially the same audience. Must really kick the habit like most Unionists, and let you lads talk to yourselves.

  • ayeYerMa

    lol! Someone thinks that the “dissos” are the funny ones on the Republican side. Afraid no mo chara, as many of us view all Republicans as “dissidents”. At least those labelled “dissident” by the appeasement processors have some sort of coherency to their position, unlike the doublespeak of the real comedy show of Provo SF/IRA!

  • Greenflag

    @ AYM

    “At least those labelled “dissident” by the appeasement processors have some sort of coherency to their position, ”

    So you’d prefer to be coherently shot at and bombed rather just pilloried and laughed at /ridiculed by satirists and cartoonists and the mass media ?

    Theres no accounting for taste they say .

    They also say a sadist is somebody who’s kind to a masochist .If you look around long enough I’m sure you’ll find somebody who will supply your masochistic needs .

    Personally I prefer satire and laughter anyday .Lighten up ffs -you’ll live longer that way and get to be even more of a pain in the arse to even more people ;).

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    AYM

    You never fail to disappoint:

    “A Ghobshite” – Man playing but it’s no less than expected from you.

    “This hate site has been posting numerous screengrabs from Facebook, not of loutishness, but of rather legitimate points and legitimate expressions of protest.” – NOT. OF. LOUTISHNESS?

    Have you even looked at the site? Explain ‘Flegger logic’ posts then?

    Granted, they’re a bit Willie Frazer orientated at present but how could they not be given his recent antics?

    “The endless slur of “flegger” made against the 51% of the population who supported such protest or “kultur” etc. ”

    Again, have you actually read it?
    They make it painfully clear that their criticism is aimed at those who trail Unionist culture through the mud, not the ‘51%’ that you refer to.

    That’s why on their site you’ll see a fat lout with a fleg get picked on, NOT an ordinary Unionist who is minding his own business.

    Do you understand this or in the digital world of AYM is a criticism of any aspect of the Unionist spectrum simply an attack on Unionism itself?

    Also: “The point is that that is not what this hate site is mocking…”

    ?????????????????????/

    THAT. IS. PRECISELY. WHAT. THEY. ARE. MOCKING. I. TOOK. THOSE. EXAMPLES. FROM. THEIR. FB. PAGE.

    “The hypocrisy is all the more given that in all likelihood the organisers of such a site (and no doubt a majority of its audience) vote SF/IRA and clearly have little problem with a 30 year offensive of shooting and bombing.”

    Proof please. Some sort of hint, link, name to drop, a conversation you may have had in the pub with some one in ‘the know’.
    Something to back that up. Anything man. Anything.

    Again it just seems like a typical AYM answer best summarised thusly:


    *MANPPLAY*
    You criticise parts of Unionism so I’ll act as if you attacked ALL of Unionism.
    Why do you not understand us you liberal idiots?
    If you critcise Unionism you must be a SF supporter as it’s impossible for Unionists to criticise other Unionists (unless they’re fighting in Stormont as usual).
    I hate Sinn Fein.
    It’s all their fault.
    Even when they’re respecting Unionist culture they’re not respecting Unionist culture.
    How dare they get voted….
    Here’s some random numbers I made up…”

    I await further enlightenment.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “Oh, and if that guy draws the cartoons on Slugger then I’m not surprised they’re so terrible as never have particularly found any of them particularly pertinent.”

    I don’t even know what this means…