A clumsy law is a small price to pay to remind us what the Troubles were really about

A short footnote on the underlying politics of the SpAd Law by Newton Emerson from yesterday’s Irish News…

During the Troubles the vast majority of the nationalist electorate pointedly rejected IRA violence but since the ceasefires a reassessment of that violence was necessary and warranted by ‘unionist misrule’ has crept into the nationalist mainstream.

By extension, as Mr Kavanagh seemed to imply, a ‘discriminatory’ special advisers bill threatens to take us back to where we started. In fact, there is no risk to peace from this minor inconvenience to Sinn Fein’s party machine.

A far greater threat is pretending the entire 30-year span of the IRA campaign was justified, its violence was successful and victims like Mary Travers were an accidental aberration. A clumsy law may be a small price to pay to remind ourselves that this was not the case.

The real scandal is the degree of scandal and hystrionics outrage raised around doing such a modestly decent thing for victims…. its a measure of the hit taken to the re-education reconciliation programme intended to make the rest of us forget just how costly the IRA’s for a latter day Catholic Emancipation….

  • Morpheus

    Righto – ‘Dunk The Dunce’ – that confirms the level I am aiming at for future reference.

  • Neil

    My book says that’s playing the man. Here you are committing the very offence that you admonish my gentle self for allegedly committing. What did I say about projection?

    First of all you are engaging in psychobabble. It’s a statement of fact. Second, projection is a process whereby you assume other people are guilty of your sins – you project your sins onto others. What you’re talking about is a pre emptive admission of something, not projecting your guilt onto someone else. So not only are you engaging in psychobabble, you’re talking shit too boot.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

    Secondly, do you really believe that those who vote for your party are that moronic?

    Well you do, see IQ comment below.

    Moral relativism is stock-in-trade for Shinner voters but attitude relativism is a new addition to the mix. Now let’s look at moral relativism

    Ah right, we’ll talk about what you want then. Again. Every single thread is about a) the Shinners, b) the evil Eurozone or c) the precise legal constitutional status of Ireland, north and south according to, well, you just.

    this is when the Shinners justify murdering civilians because the British army murdered them too. So we have the, ahem, ‘republicans’ holding up the British army as a paragon of moral rectitude who set the standards for others to follow.

    Simply not true. The Shinners justify the IRA who were continuing what was started more than a century hence. Surprising to you, being a genius and what have you who would like to have IQ linked to voting rights, that the IRA attacking soldiers was due to the British presence, not because of their moral position.

    Now we have Shinners claiming that people that those that vote for them are so ignorant as to vote based on the irrelevant attitudes of others rather than on policy or other salient factors

    In our recent poll a large number of Nationalists are further alienated within the UK due to recent (fleg related) goings on. Loyalists have the ability to affect the political views of Nationalists and vice versa.

    And who was it who said that the right to vote should be based on an acceptable result of a mandatory IQ test? If it was, the only seats that Shinners would be elected to are those ‘Dunk The Dunce’ seats you see at fairgrounds…

    So a synopsis:

    Alias: I don’t believe you, you’re a SF voter.
    Alias: You do, you do vote SF.
    Alias: All SF voters are thick.

    And he’s playing the man? Yeah very good Alias.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Sinn Fein, in the recent past, was never custodians of peace, or of a peace process. Its leadership’s justification of Provo murders, and the horrific nature of their indiscriminate, but calculated, murderous campaign, is proof of that.

    Neither can Sinn Fein be guarantors of future peace. Their goal remains a 32 county socialist republic. They have presently given up on ‘physical force’ as the means of achieving it, concentrating for the moment on the ballot box, instead of the Armalite. This requires more and more votes in the ballot, without scruples about the means and methods (e.g. extraordinary fundraising methods etc) for getting the extra votes. So watch out for a continued and increasingly intensive, expensive, sectarian and never ending election campaigning. If it doesn’t work it will be back to what we do best.

    Nearly 200 years ago, The Liberator, Daniel O’Connell, prophetically said of physical force republicanism:

    “She has no head and cannot think; no heart, and cannot feel. When she moves, it is wrath; when she pauses, it is amid ruin; her prayers are curses – her God is a demon – her communion is death – her vengeance is eternity – her Decalogue written in blood of her victims; and if she stops for a moment in her infernal flight, it is upon a kindred rock, to whet her vulture fang for a more sanguinary desolation.”

    So what Newton Emerson brilliantly said in 700 words confirms what The Liberator said in 70 words.

  • Alias

    “Second, projection is a process whereby you assume other people are guilty of your sins – you project your sins onto others. What you’re talking about is a pre emptive admission of something, not projecting your guilt onto someone else. So not only are you engaging in psychobabble, you’re talking shit too boot.” – Neil

    Sorry if I sent you scurrying off to Wiki but had you engaged your brain rather than diverting the energy to your violently jerking knee you might have noticed that the projection refered to the other Shinner calling Jim Allister an opportunist (“he’s an opportunist”) and accusing him of sectarianism with whom he uses his “expertise and skills to help”.

    “Another defence mechanism is projection, e.g. when a person accuses another person of character faults that the accusing person actually possesses. For example, he might accuse someone who is not from his own tribe of sectarianism or opportunism when these flaws are really his own.” – Alias

    See? All it required was a little bit of concentration on your part and it might just have looked if you were wearing your thinking cap in reply instead of your Propeller Beanie Hat. But it was nice of you to come to aid of your little pal with both orifices blazing…

  • Reader

    Morpheus: The 1973 Border poll? Please.
    Yes; really. For all your talk about some programme of education, it isn’t happening now and it isn’t promised by either the GFA or by any political party. So the difference between an 20xx poll and the 1973 poll will be precisely what?
    The nearest you might get to a programme of education will be that somehow the nationalist parties *might* get together to deliver a joint united Ireland Manifesto. More likely they won’t – more likely the Southern Poll will take the form of a new constitution thrashed out by the southern parties to take some form that FF and FG and Labour (maybe even SF) think might persuade enough Unionists and Unicorns to stay at home on the day. Note that it can’t take the form of a deal with unionists (it’s a secret ballot – I put my X where I *want* to.). So it can only take the form of a bribe.
    The Shinners will really, really, hate it.

  • Morpheus

    Why did you change the quote John?

    The poem is actually about bigotry, not ‘physical force republicanism’ and God knows there is enough bigotry in Northern Ireland to go around.

    The actual quote is:
    Bigotry has no head and cannot think, no heart and cannot feel. When she moves it is in wrath; when she pauses it is amid ruin. Her prayers pre curses, her God is a demon, her communion is death, her vengeance i? eternity, her decalogue written in the blood of her victims. And if she stops for a moment in her infernal flight it is upon a kindred rock to whet her vulture fang for a more sanguinary desolation.”

    http://newspapers.bc.edu/cgi-bin/bostonsh?a=d&d=BOSTONSH19180803-01.2.84

  • Alias

    “So a synopsis:

    Alias: I don’t believe you, you’re a SF voter.
    Alias: You do, you do vote SF.
    Alias: All SF voters are thick.

    And he’s playing the man? Yeah very good Alias.” – Neil

    That’s so bad it’s kind of good. 😉

    Now you can make all the attempts at amateur haiku verse you like but ‘playing the man’ is singular, and it isn’t ‘playing the men’ so Shinner voters (however moronic our mutual friend thinks they are in their voting choices) are a group and therefore it doesn’t apply to them.

    A better synopsis is:

    Our mutual friend: I have never voted for the Shinners in my life (therefore my comment is that of an impartial observer – har, har har).
    Alias: Who said you did vote for them?
    Our mutual friend: That’s playing the man.
    Alias: You introduced the personal subject to deny something that no one has accused you of.
    Our mutual friend: Is that your level! Why, I’m disgusted! I never in my life met such a cad! I shall no longer tell you who I don’t vote for.
    Alias: Fine, because I never asked you – and reaction formation gives me a good clue anyway.
    Friend of our mutual friend: All you talk about is the EU, Shinners, and here’s a quote from Wiki.
    Alias: *pops off to another site to look at sandstone paving his wife wants now that the sun is out*

  • Looking at comments on various sites, all in breach of Mick’s cardinal rule, I can only assume that Mick is on vacation and I hope he and family, presumably, are having a wonderful time.

  • Morpheus

    “Yes; really. For all your talk about some programme of education, it isn’t happening now and it isn’t promised by either the GFA or by any political party. So the difference between an 20xx poll and the 1973 poll will be precisely what?”

    As I said previously the fact that neither SF nor the SDLP have started to educate the electorate yet is a crying shame…but it will happen. Maybe getting people to talk about the need for education on forums like this will help, who knows? But rather than mock Catalonian-style border polls in partisan areas, the penny will soon drop and they will realize that education is the key to overcoming fear of the unknown and ignorance of the facts.

    When it does happen the significant difference between a 20xx poll and a 1973 poll will be that the electorate will know exactly what they are voting on. They will have the facts of what a UI will look like in terms of housing, jobs, education, health, social security, political representation etc. so they can make an informed decision based on those. Who knows, maybe with all the facts they might vote to maintain the Union – but then again…

    Bottom line, the report I envisage simply sets everything out on the table so the electorate, north and south of the border can make an informed decision. That’s all. What’s the problem with that?

    (Alias: Take what I said at face value or don’t. Address the issues or don’t. Read my posts or don’t if they bore you. I honestly don’t care which you chose, you are a fake name on a screen to me.)

  • Granni Trixie

    Alias

    Thanks for a good laf.

  • Mick Fealty

    Was at a wedding, then off to a folk festival.. Amnesty for all messers, up now. But will be handing out reds from now on!

  • tacapall

    Look at these jokers trying to erase their own blood thirsty terrorist past from history.

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/uup-backs-ex-ruc-on-maze-1-5179588

    Speaking in yesterday’s News Letter, members of the RUC GC Association’s central co-ordinating group said there should be no attempt to equate the community service of law enforcement with those who murdered civilians and security personnel alike without remorse – describing the Maze site as “the very antithesis of peace”.

  • 241934 john brennan

    Morp.
    In my book, much of the ‘physical force’ tactics employed by the Provos was quite synonymous with the extremes sectarian bigotry. Below are a couple of sentences from Jim Cusack’s recent book:
    “It’s very common in literature on Northern Ireland and the Troubles to see it largely in terms of a dominant Protestant majority and a Catholic minority, but in the Border areas it was the Protestants who were in the minority and who suffered for it. It has been ignored in large part because it does not fit into the ‘oppressive Protestants/oppressed Catholics’ dichotomy.
    “It is also one where a brutal sectarian dimension of the Provisionals is undeniable: the relentless bombing of Protestant businesses, the burning of farms, the shooting up of farmhouses to force the occupants out and the relentless campaign to kill Protestants in and out of uniform.
    “The Provos said and still say that they were killed for the uniform they wore and not for their religion but a good number of Protestants were killed who had left the UDR and others were killed who had never been in the security forces.”
    The “ethnic cleansing” of Protestants living in Border areas over 20 years of the Troubles was a “tool” to stop unionists coming to a political accommodation with the moderate nationalist party, the SDLP.

  • Delphin

    Yes, bad RUC. Imagine having the temerity to stand in the way of a 32 county socialist republic. They need to go and sit on the naughty step.

  • Morpheus

    John, you manipulated a quote – not cool but hardly a hanging offense. I was curious about why you felt the need to do it. That’s all.

  • Morpheus

    “Yes, bad RUC. Imagine having the temerity to stand in the way of a 32 county socialist republic. ”

    It wasn’t the job of The RUC to ‘stand in the way of a 32 county socialist republic’ – their job was to uphold law and order for all the citizens of Northern Ireland.

  • Delphin

    Whose job was then, the British Army?

  • Morpheus

    Whether to join a ’32 county socialist republic’, to remain in the Union or for NI to become an independent State should be democratically decided by the people.

  • tacapall

    Surprise surprise –

    http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=164104

    MoD Knew Dangers Of Rubber Bullets

    “The Ministry of Defence knew that rubber bullets used at the height of the Troubles were dangerous, could cause serious injury and even be lethal, but withheld the information from victims, it has emerged. This is despite the fact that the MoD had classified the projectiles as non-lethal”

  • Delphin

    Of course Morpheus, but militant republicians didn’t quite see it that way did they?

  • Morpheus

    No they didn’t and for each offense committed those accused deserved to be put before the courts, tried by their peers and sent to prison if found guilty. The same goes for those from Loyalism and The State who committed crimes.

  • cynic2

    “rubber bullets used at the height of the Troubles were dangerous, could cause serious injury and even be lethal”

    Thats shacking, truly shackin. Who might have thought that.

    Nothing is without risk. Given the technology of the time they may have been the best available ……given that the opposition were using bricks, petrol bombs, grenades, blast bombs and firearms which noone representing the victims mentions.

    The circumstances of each case also needs to be carefully considered, I am genuinely sorry for anyone who suffered a serious injury but none of those ever hit by rubber bullets was ever doing anything at the time. However in Belfast parlance at the time ‘going tae the shap fur a battle o’milk’ was one of the most hazardous passtimes in the city.

    In any case, given the environment the Army was dumped into the question then becomes, how dangerous were rubber bullets compared to the alternatives at the time? Batons? Rifles? An invitation to a prayer meeting?

    Perhaps the Army should just have stood back, for example, and let the Prods repeat Bombay street over and over again rather than dare to fire rubber bullets at them? Would the Short Strand, for example, still be there today if it hadn’t been protected repeatedly by the army firing the dreaded rubber bullets? And that can be repeated countless times across NI on all sides

    The benefits of time, history and legal licence are wornderful

  • cynic2

    It wasn’t the job of The RUC to ‘stand in the way of a 32 county socialist republic’

    Surely it was the job of the RUC to uphold the law and stop the use of violence to impose a 32 County Socialist (Fascist actually) Republic. Once you stand in the way of the violence you stand in the way of the objective., Its your motive that counts

  • Morpheus

    Can you please explain what your understanding of a fascism is and how it is applicable to Ireland?

  • Reader

    Morpheus: Whether to join a ’32 county socialist republic’, to remain in the Union or for NI to become an independent State should be democratically decided by the people.
    Something like a border poll, perhaps?
    Like, for instance, the 1973 border poll?
    In different roles, the job of the police and the army was to keep order, allow life to proceed normally so much as was possible, and to allow political processes (elections, polls, negotiations) to take place.
    For the bloodiest part of the troubles, the republican objective was to prevent all of the above. I’m not quite sure what the loyalists thought they were doing,

  • Morpheus

    “In different roles, the job of the police and the army was to keep order, allow life to proceed normally so much as was possible, and to allow political processes (elections, polls, negotiations) to take place.”

    True, that’s what the PSNI do today. Regardless, the RUC are confined to history and the army are off the streets – we have a new, representative police service with relative transparency and accountability and that’s something we can all be thankful for.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Did rioters know that petrol and blast bombs were “dangerous, could cause serious injury and even be lethal”?

    I expect they did and that’s why crowds cheered as police officers were torched in Londonderry at the start of widespread rioting.

    Plastic bullets, and later baton rounds were deployed in situations where lethal force would have been justified. The Army, in common with most reasoning people, understood that ANY use of force has the potential for unintended outcomes – the recent ‘one punch can kill’ campaign is an example of this understanding.

    In that regard the Army, and later the police, understood that projectiles intended not to kill had the potential to kill and deployed them as a less-lethal option.

    Some may wish that the security forces suffered more during confrontations where mass petrol bomb and blast bomb attacks were directed at them.

    Others may feel that, given the troops and police all carried firearms they should have shot to kill those attacking who posed a lethal threat to them.

    In practice the security forces showed restraint in dealing with the lethal force used against them. Perhaps the phenomenon of ‘recreational rioting is illustrative of that.

    It should be remembered that the last death related to baton rounds was in 1989. Although that occurrence, along with the others killed in similar circumstances was tragic many hundreds of rounds have been fired since without a lethal outcome.

    Much if that is down to improvements in technology deployed in an environment that continues to present life-threatening risks to troops and police officers.

  • tacapall

    “Given the technology of the time they may have been the best available ……given that the opposition were using bricks, petrol bombs, grenades, blast bombs and firearms which noone representing the victims mentions.”

    Obviously your good self and SOS never read the whole link –

    “The news has come about as a result of the lawyers of Richard Moore, who was blinded in L’Derry in 1972 when he was 10, after a British soldier fired a plastic bullet in his face.”

    !0 year old children using petrol bombs, grenades, blast bombs and firearms – Stretching the imagination a bit there but I suppose you were brought up to believe that.

  • sonofstrongbow

    tacky,

    Not for the first time you’ve gone from the general, “plastic bullets used at the height of the Troubles”, to a specific unacceptable and horrendous case, Richard Moore.

    Whilst not wishing to minimise the life-changing injuries sustained by Mr Moore in that specific case the use of the weapon did prove to be “non-lethal”. Which rather supports the Army’s position.

    I’ll not respond to your man-playing sign-off, other than to say it’s pretty much your USP when the context of a situation is brought to your attention.

  • tacapall

    Ciderman I can link you to lots more of those Richard Moore type unacceptable and horrendous cases all children around that age then I could move on to the likes of the Nora Mc Cabe type of unacceptable and horrendous cases, what type of sick people would use inaccurate lethal weapons in situations where children might be around.

    If someone invented a weapon that shot backwards sometimes and killed the user or some innocent person who unfortunately was unlucky to be near them, do you think it would be taken off the market ?

    Man playing – Such a laugh coming from you.

  • sonofstrongbow

    “what type of sick person would use inaccurate lethal weapons in situations where children might be around.”

    I agree. But it’s worse than you think. Quite often the sickos actually got the children to throw the petrol and blast bombs.

  • tacapall

    “Quite often the sickos actually got the children to throw the petrol and blast bombs”

    Is that your excuse for all those unacceptable and horrendous deaths of Irish children caused by British soldiers, like I said before if thats the what your brought up to believe then regardless what evidence is shown to you you’d probably make your own up, like above, sick so sick.

  • cynic2

    “Is that your excuse for all those unacceptable and horrendous deaths of Irish children caused by British soldiers, ”

    ……but its true or hid behind them firing at the soldiers and using them as cover. That is what they did> i know you don’t like that but that is what the people you support actually did

  • cynic2

    By the way you seemed to have missed out a bit of information that doesn’t fit with your simple Anti British rhetoric.

    In the Stewart case the European Commission for Human Rights (that well known Army and RUC supporting body) held that while plastic bullets could cause injury and death the statistics showed that they were a lot less dangerous than alleged by litigants and, in the circumstances of NI, were a legitimate reasonable and proportionate response to the violence

    You also don’t say what was going on in the Brown case. Clearly he was utterly innocent. From what I have read he ran out of the school gate and was hit in the face. But who or what was the round fired at. that is the critical issue. Why was that round fired. It doesn’t seem to have been aimed at Mr Brown – was it aimed at a rioter or someone attacking the army outside? We need to know.

  • cynic2

    “what type of sick people would use inaccurate lethal weapons in situations where children might be around.”

    What type of sick people encouraged them to riot and attack the police and army? What kind of sick people recruited impressionable and often stupid young people into the IRA or UDA or UVF as cannon fodder for their own ambitions? What kind oif people blew the kneecaps off young people for alleged petty antisocial behavior or minor crimes with no trail and no defence?

  • Morpheus

    Cynic, have you ever heard of the case of 31 year old Nora McCabe?

    She was returning from shops when she was hit on the back of the head with a baton round. At an inquest in 1982 RUC witnesses claimed that their Land Rover was coming under heavy attack with petrol bombs and stones but that evidence was ‘demolished’ by a Canadian camera crew who happened to be in the area at that very time. The RUC officer who fired the shot, nor his commanding officer were changed with anything – not even perjury. That is not justice.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8646839.stm

    My point is, the whole system was rotten to the very core back then and instances like this and the ongoing collusion were used by the IRA to recruit impressionable young people into their ranks who went on to do other heinous things. One side fueled the other.

    From my experience, the Catholic community simply did not trust the RUC to fairly uphold law and order in Northern Ireland and I for one thank goodness that they are confined to the history books – the actions of a few tarnished the entire organisation in my opinion. We should all be thankful that we now have a representative police service in the PSNI with transparency and accountability. Would an incident like Nora McCabe happen today? I don’t think so.

  • sonofstrongbow

    tac,

    “Is that your excuse….”.

    It is not an “excuse”. It is an attempt to contextualise the incidents. cynic2 has said it very clearly. If riots erupt with children present, and sometimes purposefully present as protagonists or used as cover, the potential for tragedy is there.

    What did you expect the security forces to do? In the example cited above should the police have withdrawn from holding the line at Short Strand, or in another example, from the boundary of the Fountain Estate in Londonderry when it too came under sectarian attack?

    If you have some other technology that is both effective in keeping at bay the lethal violence employed in riots and that has absolutely no potential for adverse effects please share it.

    Although it will need to match, at least, the Human Rights compliance already achieved by baton rounds.

    CS/Tear Gas has been tried and found wanting in the residential areas where much disorder occurs because of its tendency to spread into people’s homes. Water cannon has a role but it does not have the ability to target individuals who present a lethal threat. That is those armed with petrol bombs, blast bombs and other weaponry.

    Many, many thousands of plastic bullets/baton rounds have been fired over the past 30/40 years. Lethal outcomes, although tragic, have been proportionally very small.

    In reality though you have no interest in facts. Rather you indulge in polemics that have a rather obvious agenda. You fail to record even a mild annoyance of those who instigate riots or who engage armed forces in heavily built-up urban areas with improvised weapons or firearms. You confine yourself solely to condemning the security forces’ response to such lethal attacks.

    Perhaps that’s simply what you were ‘brought up to believe’.

  • tacapall

    “but its true or hid behind them firing at the soldiers and using them as cover. That is what they did> i know you don’t like that but that is what the people you support actually did”

    Is this what you actually saw or what you were told ? What people do I actually support, if you can find a post I have made where I supported anyone who engaged in using violence against anyone feel free to post it up otherwise your just scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    “What did you expect the security forces to do? In the example cited above should the police have withdrawn from holding the line at Short Strand, or in another example, from the boundary of the Fountain Estate in Londonderry when it too came under sectarian attack”

    How many loyalist school children were killed with rubber or plastic bullets or are you going to suggest loyalists never rioted.

    “Water cannon has a role but it does not have the ability to target individuals who present a lethal threat. That is those armed with petrol bombs, blast bombs and other weaponry”

    You never answered my question, if someone invented a gun that backfired and killed or seriously injured the user or some innocent person unlucky to be near them do you think it would be on the market for sale in riot situations ?

    “You confine yourself solely to condemning the security forces’ response to such lethal attacks.

    Perhaps that’s simply what you were ‘brought up to believe”

    Thats because I have lost a few family members and friends to rouge policemen, lost friends to trigger happy soldiers, lost friends to trigger happy RUC officers, I experienced that first hand it was nothing I was brought up to believe.

  • sonofstrongbow

    You are allowing your, quite natural, emotional response to the bereavements you have experienced to cloud your judgement.

    You extrapolate from the specific to the general and conclude that because something occurred at a given time the same thing must have happened everywhere else also. In the process you disregard individual circumstances and ignore the reality that the facts do not support your thesis.

    Thus you conclude that all RUC officers firing baton rounds must have targeted Catholic children. The facts don’t support that.

    A large number of the Catholic deaths attributed to baton rounds occurred in 1980/1981. Those years correspond with the ‘Hunger Strikes’ and the widespread street disorder they generated. The rioting was in the main in nationalist areas.

    A Protestant was killed in 1986. At that time the police were blocking loyalists from marching through the ‘Tunnel’ in Portadown. Again widespread serious rioting was a feature of the time. This time mainly by loyalists.

    You ignore these surrounding facts. You also ignore the reality that the last fatality attributed to baton rounds, a Catholic, occurred in 1989. What changed the RUC’s mind about trying to ‘kill Catholics’ with baton rounds?

    I did not answer your ‘question’ because it is nonsensical. However many people have been killed by misfiring guns, but I serioisly doubt anyone would spend the time inventing one with that sole purpose.

    I suspect that you posed the question to provide you an opportunity of the rejoinder that plastic/baton rounds are not supposed to kill but they have, ergo, they are indeed lethal.

    Utilising that reasoning many everyday things are therefore also lethal. However just keeping it to law enforcement equipment, police batons have killed. The anti Vietnam War protestor Blair Peach being a well known victim of a police truncheon.

    Despite Mr Peach’s death in common with plastic/baton rounds police batons were not invented to kill either.

  • cynic2

    Is this what you actually saw or what you were told ?

    I saw it myself in North Belfast. Satisfied?

  • redstar2011

    I note Miss Travers has now moved on to assist OO etc with their next campaign- opposing the Maze project.

    Why does she just not join TUV and be more honest bout it

  • Reader

    redstar2011: I note Miss Travers has now moved on to assist OO etc with their next campaign- opposing the Maze project. Why does she just not join TUV and be more honest bout it
    Surely it’s not just the TUV and the OO who are opposed to the Maze Shrine?

  • Morpheus

    What is the deal with the DUP and the Maze? As Willie Tazer keeps pointing out, just a few short years ago they were vehemently against it and now they appear to be out of step with their core voters by being very much for it – what is going on behind the scenes?